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  Discussion on Swollen Fetlock 2
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 11:39 am:

I have been reading up on different causes of "red skin" in that area....which leads you everywhere. BUT now I am wondering could this be caused by some sort of dermatitis. I noticed today that Hanks has 3 black looking scabs on the side of his pastern that RESEMBLE scratches...they developed yesterday. I wonder if this is related...he didn't want me picking at them!

He had scratches once as a 3 yr. old that got terrible, we were able to get them under control with dermavet and azium rather quickly ... they were located in the more normal area of below the fetlock...these "scabs" are higher up then where "normal" scratches usually appear. We have had a lot of rain and mud, but he has been inside until it dries, because I didn't want him slipping. I can honestly say his leg has been dry and mud free. I have some dermavet here I may put that on his lump and black scabs and see if that helps...Just weird. I wonder if I could talk the vet into coming out on the cheap "for a learning experience" and look at this mess!
The new scabs...will try to get better pic tonight

Member:
jowidner

Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 3:26 pm:

Thanks for starting the new thread Diane, it loads much faster! Wish I had some wisdom to add here but I have no idea what you may be dealing with beyond what's already been discussed. I sure am curious as to what this turns out to be. I know that you are ready for some resolution!
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 3:32 pm:

My hubby instantly asked me if the horse has been around any chemicals and is having a reaction...I said the only thing I know of is that you put some kind of chemical to kill the clover in your pastures. I told him I doubt it would cause a problem because its a chemical that is used on farms all the time but ...IDK
Just trying to brainstorm.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Aug 23, 2009 - 4:58 pm:

Leslie that crossed my mind, but I would think another leg would show symptoms too? They were off that pasture for 3 weeks with multiple heavy rains in that period.

I mixed up my own concoction tonight
1 part dermavet
1 part triple antibiotic
1 part Ivermectin...just in case

Pretty benign and shouldn't irritate anything, he actually didn't pull away when I put that on...maybe the other stuff I have been using did "burn" him...sigh.

If the SMZ/TMP is going to work how long does it take to start seeing results?

I wonder if I can ride him? He shows no lameness that isn't "normal" for him. BUT I am very scared to make him worse...just in case it is a bone/ligament/tendon and the darn thing has been popping way more than it normally does.

At first the vet said it was OK, but after I told him his RH felt stiff when I rode him he just grunted. So I guess I will continue to let him be a pasture potato until we figure this out. You would think after 6-7 weeks this thing would start to tell us what it is, by either getting better OR worse.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 5:13 am:

The vet called me this morning as soon as he got in the office to check on Hanks status...I think we are ruining his weekends because he can't stop thinking about this puzzle.

He said IF the SMZ's were going to work we should see improvement by Tues. He also said he wouldn't rule out a small fracture that couldn't be seen on x-ray. But you would think he would or would have shown a little lameness. He said IF that waas the case and we are on 7 weeks it should be healing anyway.I told him he don't want me touching it now (but I don't know if that is from the "burn" of the topicals...or it hurts more!

SOOOO we are just going to "let it be" and see what happens. He said to call him Weds. and report how he is...
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 6:27 am:

Diane ,

Those red patches sure look sore and like some kind of dermatitis, or even sunburn.

Are they only on the pink skin?

I would put a diaper rash product on those as Rachelle suggested and imagine it could be caused by the Icthammol.

We have a kind of weed here this time of year called hairy indigo that causes Lance to get a dermatitis that looks like this after he walks through it (plus sores too) so I have been slathering Desitin type stuff on before and after trail rides recently.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 11:51 am:

Hi Vicki, It looks normal today (his skin) I must have "burnt" him with something

Here's the development of today...the lump seem to be moving right a little bit OR maybe deflating on the left...it looks as big as ever..just different.

SOOO It is a BEAUTIFUL day, I got done early, called vet and asked if he thought I could do any harm by riding him lightly and see how he feels. He said go ahead just don't jump or do anything Fancy(Like I can do fancy things!) Remember he is perfectly sound in pasture so it's not like I am riding a "lame" horse...I would never do that if he was even a little off He hasn't had any bute since Sun. morning.

He felt WONDERFUL!! First I took him a little ways up the road just to see how he felt. I couldn't detect anything! SO down to the arena. He felt wonderful was very well behaved...but full of himself, he hasn't been ridden for 6 weeks other than a trial ride a couple weeks ago, in which I did feel some stiffness and he wasn't as "willing" to go. I did one canter on the long side of the arena, he actually came from behind very nicely without me even asking...I expected his strung out I don't want to canter. Once when we trotted it felt as if the right hind stepped in a hole...BUT he has always had that since I can remember so don't know if it is related. I only rode him for about 20 mins...he is out of shape and I don't want to push it...but boy did it feel good to be "back in the saddle"

NOW I wait and see what tomorrow brings...if I don't see any lameness I am going to ask the vet if I can put him back in light work...I know he'll say yes!!!!

Keep hooves crossed for a sound Hank tomorrow!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 2:51 pm:

Hank came galloping up for his
"supper" Don't know if it's a good I idea, but decided to go back to ice tight poultice, he never had a problem with that and the vet recommended it this morning. I didn't wrap it just slobbered it on! His new "scratches fell off tonight as I was brushing him, so last night's concoction must have worked

Maybe we are finally on the upside of this thing...I HOPE. Still wish I knew what it was tho!
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Aug 24, 2009 - 7:39 pm:

Diane: I know you read my thread on the clover. The "scab" resembles part of what my mares were breaking out with ( only much worse at it's peak - including bright red color on the skin and stocking up ). Removing them entirely from the clover and keeping UV protection on them all summer did the trick.

Recently, we have been going through a bout of weeks of cloudy rainy weather. I thought with a good cloud cover,and no clover, I could get away with skimping on my sunscreen protection on the nose and UV flywraps on the legs. My chestnut and sorrel mares did OK....even the one with two small white snips on her hind pasterns. But my leopard app. broke out on her feet and nose with the black scabs after two days. After sunscreening her again, and wrapping her legs in the UV fly wraps, she is 75% better after 2 days. Before the clover took over my pasture in the last 3 years, Jazz, my app., was never troubled by the sun. I was hoping that after we got the clover banished, that everything would be OK again. Seems the photosensitivity may linger....
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 3:13 am:

Uncross hooves, Hank was a little stiff on RH this morning...Pasture potato the rest of the year I suppose. I don't feel any heat and the swelling don't look worse...but something must be going on in there.

Now I feel guilty for riding him. It was a short ride with about 30 seconds of trot one canter up the long side...that he offered, the rest walk.

UNLESS this is from the poultice, I'm not putting anything else on his skin!...I haven't hosed it off yet. Could be his skin is sensitive...
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 9:10 am:

This seems to be a real good news - bad news, saga, Diane and will hope for Hank that this clears up soon.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 25, 2009 - 1:36 pm:

I talked to the vet and we both thought that his tolerance of "riding" was a good sign...he was stiff in RH last time I tried him under saddle. He seems fine this afternoon.

So we thought if he improved that much in a couple weeks, we will wait another couple weeks and see if it improves more under saddle. I'm not kidding when I say he hasn't moved that well in years...Can't quite figure that out. Hank has always worked naturally from the hind end with a big engine...he lost that about 5 years ago and I do miss it...It was there yesterday. I rode in the bitless bridle and he was "carrying" himself without me asking I didn't think he could do that anymore....it's been a LONG LONG time since he has. Any of you that are lucky enough to own a horse that does this knows what I mean by natural self carriage...he used to be like that even out in the pasture. WHY that returned yesterday is a mystery...but it was SOOO nice. I hope if he is ever cured of this lump it continues!

The tip of his "lump" is still warm, but the tendon/ ligaments feel normal. He didn't care if I felt it today. I could feel the "thing" sticking out there and tried to pull it out...that got a reaction....SOOOO we are still at square one...with a little improvement under saddle....Dunno and neither does the vet.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 26, 2009 - 12:23 pm:

Glad that you are having a hind-end improvement Diane!

That is great news.

Now will hope for continuing improvement and a solution to the mystery of the "thing."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 3:06 am:

Hank is now on stall rest due to the never ending rain! This way I can see if stall rest will make a difference in the lump. I have been putting dermavet and triple antibiotic on it. The heat in the lump is almost gone, but it hasn't changed in size at all. I can still feel something sticking there so hoping the dermavet/triple antibiotic will soften it up enough to come out....I don't know if that is the problem, it would eliminate some of the guess work tho if it would come out.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Aug 27, 2009 - 5:28 pm:

Dr.O. Mr. Lump is finally changing. Hank is off of SMZ's as of last night. Turned out a couple hours a day. I am cold hosing his leg at night, putting dermavet/triple antibiotic on it and giving him 1 gram of bute a day. The swelling finally seems to be dissipating down and around the original "lump" the heat comes and goes at the point of the lump.

How does one help the edema move out of the surrounding area or does it just have to slowly dissipate on it's own? Thanks



Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 1:10 pm:

WELLLL I decided to de-worm Hank again...just in case this "lump" could somehow be caused by a parasite...far reach I know, but I am at my wits end with this thing! I De-wormed him with Ivermectin 2 weeks ago and again Fri. night.

I have been checking this "thing" morning and night and sometimes in between....just hoping it will explode in puss or something!

I was outside working and Hank came up for a visit, so I took a peek at his lump and there were 2 oozing craters in it (the darn thing is still as big as ever) The new crater at the top of the lump seemed to have something sticking out of it...yet very small...thread like...grossed me out. I tried to pick it out and he kept pulling away and kicking a little. In the house I came, got a tweezers, camera, and a mirror hoping for a closer look...I really need to get a magnifying glass. For those of you that have been following this, the other "thing" that was originally sticking out is OOOzing also and has a crater just like todays new one you can kind of see that one in the pic too.

Grabbed a bucket of alfalfa pellets for holding still bribery. The pellets worked pretty good! I was able to feel the lump pretty good(it is softer), couldn't rub the "thing" out that was sticking out, it hung on there. I can still feel a piece of "something" right above the "thing" under his skin. Grabbed the tweezers and must have got the part hanging out but couldn't find it with the hair I yanked with it. It really was skinny and small whatever IT was. I took a couple pics of the new pustule it did leave a little crater in his skin and still something under the skin right above it UGGGHHH.

IS it Possible this is some kind of parasite??? This was NOT there this morning. It is crusty and kind of ooozy..for lack of a better word. I'm really thinking about De-worming him again with Ivermectin...but don't know if that would be over kill??? The heat has left the lump also?

His tendons/ligaments remain cool. He is not lame and I am about sick of this!

pic
Member:
erika

Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 2:24 pm:

How 'bout rubbing the area with ivermectin?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 3:02 pm:

Erika I have been doing that for awhile, it didn't seem to make a difference one way or another. All I have is paste tho, I wonder if liquid ivermectin would absorb through the skin better. I suppose the paste form would NOT absorb through the skin.

After thinking about it, Ivermectim has tested safe at 10x the dosage, so hitting him again next weekend couldn't hurt....could it?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 3:52 pm:

Interesting photo.

I would be inclined to hose and scrub this area vigorously twice daily with liquid Nolvasaan (from Vet's office) added to water to make a nice blue shade, dry and treat any open skin with an antibiotic ointment and then apply diaper rash ointment (Desitin or generic) to protect and soften. But if the open wound area is too moist I would dry it with blue lotion after scrubbing instead.

As for the swelling, I would massage the surrounding area with Witch Hazel twice daily.

"The thing" has got to go!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Aug 30, 2009 - 6:48 pm:

LOL Vicki I don't think anybody is going to be scrubbing that lump if Hank has anything to say about it This would be much easier if it was a front leg! I have been applying a triple antibiotic/dermavet(genaric panalog) concoction on it. I don't want to put anything on it that may irritate his skin further and he seems to not mind that mixture and keeps his leg where he should when I apply it. The only part he is touchy about is the top of the lump....that's also where all the heat has been. It must itch because if I brush it he loves it, and sticks his lips out and about faints....even stops eating! The lump itself is still very red(but calming down a little). I don't think it is sunburn...it's never sunny here for one thing! and his other legs are fine.

The "thing" does need to go! I'm going to give it a couple days since we had this new development and see if it gets better...if not I may see if the vet thinks a biopsy would tell us anything sigh.... a $500 "thing" it better be something spectacular!...but curable
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 3:53 am:

DianE, this is unlikely a parasitic disease. The Aug 30th image above represents hair loss and irritated skin, possibly do to a primary dermatitis or secondary to a small focal abscessing cellulitis. The primary dermatitis may either be contact (reacting to something put on there) or infectious.

Either case I would consider poulticing with a good quality wide spectrum antibacterial cream or ointment should be helpful. If after a week this still persisted you and your veterinarian could consider adding a topical steroid.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 10:30 am:

Good luck Diane -- please keep us informed as the answer to the mystery unfolds.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 2:44 pm:

Thanks Dr.O. tonight as I was applying the demavet I noticed a new change, The margins of the "lump" now has a raised ring going around the top of half of it. It feels and looks like scar tissue. The lump with in the margins is now turning a purple color. It is still the same size, the heat has pretty much left over the last couple days.... Maybe this was some kind of bite? If it was would/could it stay swollen for so long?

About the time this happened I was seeing strange poop around the horses paddock ( I asked hubby what it was and he thought a racoon, we are loaded with coon, possum and coyote, and chipmonks! around here, we can hear them fighting with each other all night. One night the dog was going barking nuts outside...they are kept close to the horses, we turned the spot light on and here was a possum in the dogs feed bowl...the dog right next to it, it didn't care! Hubby went out and killed it with a shovel and the darn thing wasn't scared of him either.

Regardless I am VERY glad I gave rabies shots this year!!!!

In your opinion could a bite of some sort act like this???? The 2 ooozing craters could fit this scenario I think.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 4:05 pm:

Here's a picture of the margin I am talking about...it doesn't show it real well, because of hair and dermavet. You can also see it is turning a dark purple color. The pic really doesn't do it justice



Here's where the 2 oozing spots are
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 5:16 am:

DianE when you say "could it?" the answer is almost always yes. But I believe you found a splinter sticking in the skin here earlier didn't you?
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 11:45 am:

Dr.O. it never was determined what that was sticking out. I would be more than happy not to pursue this and let it play out, but this fat boy needs exercise and if it is something he can be ridden with or at least worked a little at liberty or on the lunge line that would be great.

My biggest concern has been making a ligament or bone injury worse. If I could determine for sure it was something else he could be put back to work.

I talked to the vet today and he said from my description it sounds like a snake bite. The only poisonous snakes we have around here are rattlers. I would think a rattlesnake bite would have produced more necrotic tissue. We do have some big non-poisonous snakes around here and maybe if one of those bit him it could become infected???

Vet said to try the SMZ's again and just watch his BM's closely.

Thanks
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 1:29 pm:

Diane,

I think you've about exhausted every avenue as far as this being a joint, ligament or tendon issue. The xrays were clean, the ultrasound was fine, there is no lameness on flexion. There is obvious irritation from what we don't know, but other than when you pick at it and annoy him. It doesn't seem to bother him. At this point, unless you are going to take him to an Equine clinic, there isn't much you can do. I'd start working him again on a routine basis and see what happens or for all you know next year at this time you will still be dealing with the same thing.

If you are worried about the diarreah, I'd try to get some yoghurt or buttermilk into him before you give him his feed with the medicine in it. To coat his tummy and to put friendly bacteria back in his gut.
Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 3:55 pm:

Good idea about the yogurt from Rachelle.

Any type of snake bite can become infected, Diane.

I would try working Hank cautiously. The exercise might help to reduce the swelling. Once swelling sets into a lower leg it can really be tough to get it out.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 4:40 pm:

Thanks, I guess I will try putting him back to work, he looks great out in the pasture. The heat is gone FINALLY from the tip of the lump...same size tho. Since the heat has finally dissipated I think I'll skip the smz's for now and see how it goes.

We are very busy calving now (3 sets of twins so far and we are only half done) Hank has a slightly loose shoe right now, so I have to get the farrier out here first. I'm debating barefoot again, he's been doing so well since he is out 24/7 since the clover removal. He never has a DP anymore, so it may be possible now. I think the boy was in a constant state of laminitis with that clover(but that's another thread
)

Once I get the farrier out here...back to work! Hopefully front hooves and back fetlock co operate...it's almost winter!
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 5:17 pm:

Hay Diane....ummmm, I was wondering...how's his cresty neck doing now that he's back out on the pasture?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 5:42 pm:

Hi Patty I was thinking about updating my experiment thread...so will do it. It is going amazingly well!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 2, 2009 - 2:32 am:

A rattlesnake bite would most certainly have more local...and systemic reaction.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Sep 3, 2009 - 3:17 pm:

I guess I'll never know what this is or what caused it for sure. The vet was out to "clean" one of our cows so he took a gander at Hank. I lunged him both ways at a trot. He was 100%. Vet felt it, he thought it felt softer too. We still don't know what this is, but he said to ride him, of course start out slowly....So I did! He didn't feel off at all and was raring to go...he needs to get back to work he is too full of energy....all and all he went well, felt good...so if this mystery is ever solved OR the lump ever goes away I'll let you know

Here's what the vet thinks it is, he thinks he knocked it on something, or some sort of trauma. He thinks their is a "sequstrum" between the sesamoid bone and the supensory attachment....But not bone....some kind of scar tissue I think he said. He said the lump may be there the rest of his life and could cause OA (great) so anyway I guess he is fine other than a big lump on his fetlock? Back to work slowly...hopefully it'll hold up ok.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Sep 4, 2009 - 5:16 am:

Hi Diane,

I just hope that Hank remains sound and you can get back to riding before the weather turns cold and nasty. Best of luck!

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Sep 7, 2009 - 8:46 am:

Just to keep the mystery interesting, since hank developed that ring of "scar tissue" around the outside the lump is has turned black...with 2 pink spots in the middle, this began happening when the heat finally left the tip of the lump. (between him and Sam I am starting to wonder what's going on)

His "swelling/lump" is just as big(but softer), I had sort of reconciled myself to this being a sesamoid bone or suspensory injury, BUT it just isn't fitting those profiles! He is sound! I have NOT been putting anything on it other than triple antibiotic...when the mood strikes me...so not often and not in the last couple of days. This has slowly been turning black since my last post.Sorry the pics are kind of blurry bu this spot isn't easy to photograph...or see for that matter







Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Sep 7, 2009 - 7:17 pm:

Hi Diane. I have been reading this but haven't posted since I've had nothing to add. This is very puzzling! Just when you think it is one thing, it shows a different symptom or changes in some way. Glad it's you and not me trying to figure this one out! Like the others, I think I'd continue to ride as long as it seems sound. Beyond that...it will be really interesting to see what you eventually figure out - if you ever do. Good luck! Maybe if you gave Hank a couple of beers he'd "spill the beans" and tell you what the heck he did! That may be the only way you'll find out!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 3:44 am:

Diane, perhaps by shaving the area we can get a better look at those black areas.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 7:09 am:

Hmm.

Diane, does the black area feel kind of hard/stiff when you touch it?

It looks to me kind of like a type of "scratches" that I've seen where serum oozes out through the skin with tiny ulcerations underneath the black stuff.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 11:27 am:

Vicki in away it does resemble scratches, but it isn't. It is hard and stiff and has become a bit crumbly in the last day or 2. From my post above I mention that he was getting a ring of what appeared to be raised scar tissue around it and it was turning a dark purple (which you can see in my post dated Aug. 31 in the 1st pic) it has just continued to get darker until it is now black! The 2 OOzing spots have remained as you can see in my above post. The "ring of scar tissue" is still there too.

Dr. O. I don't think I want to chance shaving this by myself...he was fine for the vet while I was holding him, but I don't know what his reaction might be for sure and that is a precarious spot, I also don't have a clippers that could do it I don't think...I will see if I can get better pics of it.

Thanks
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 8, 2009 - 6:25 pm:

Don't blame you for not wanting to shave it yourself, Diane.

Some horses get very ballistic about this if they are not well tranquilized.

I hear what you say about it kind of resembling scratches but not being scratches, and I have dealt with this condition in horses.

What I did was wash twice daily with nolvasaan scrub or Betadine scrub, then dry the area well.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 8:51 pm:

Dr.O. Hanks fetlock "lump" is still the same size, he remains sound on it. I have not been riding much hoping a rest will make it at least shrink a little.

I have been ignoring it for the most part. Tonight I gave it a good going over as I do want to start him back in work. The weather is finally perfect!

The lump still has a black raised ridge going around the outside margin, inside the margin all of the black "skin" is gone, what's left is white, leathery, hard skin. It kind of feels like dead skin. The lump itself under the "dead skin" feels MUCH softer...I can move it around and he doesn't seem to mind me doing anything to it. The "dead skin" doesn't seem to be growing much hair either. Does this sound like anything you have seen before? I can try to get a pic of it tomorrow, it is a hard place to photograph well.

What concerns me is the lump itself isn't getting any smaller at all, it is the same size as the day I discovered it almost 3 mos. ago. The vet is coming next week to clean sams sheath again, is there anything I can have him do to determine just what this fluid filled lump with dead skin over it is??? I would love to solve this mystery and not feel bad about riding him.

Thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 3:03 pm:

OK I actually got some decent pictures.

I did put some dermavet(generic panalog) on it last night and the white leathery skin is crumbling off, In the 1st pic I circled an area where it is still intact, you can see the rest of it crumbled off. What is this white leathery skin? Is it normal? You can see there is nice pink skin under it, but when it tries to heal this leathery skin grows.


Another view


Side view
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 3:10 pm:

This one give you a little better idea of what the "black ring" around it looks like
Member:
frances

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 3:29 am:

Good pics Diane! BTW, what happened to the "thing" (splinter) along the way?

In the side view, are there two small holes, like a snake bite mark, in the center where the fetlock ends and the pastern begins, just below the black hair?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:00 am:

LL, I quit looking at his fetlock closely for the most part, it was too discouraging. I don't know where the thing went. I am starting to think this is some kind of bite, but wouldn't it have healed up by now? Of course most things it could be should have healed up by now or at least you would think the swelling would have gone down a little. Yes you can see the 2 dots there on his fetlock, that's where it was oozing before. It does look like a healing bite mark (the 2 dots) still dunno.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 9:35 am:

The white leathery stuff you describe and the flakiness in the images above looks like hyperkeratosis (excessive amounts of dead skin forming) and is usually a sign of chronically inflamed skin. This is supported by the hair loss.

When you go back to the beginning of this thread the skin problem did not begin to well after the initial swelling so may be secondary and represent an adverse reaction to a treatment. If this is so a antibacterial steroid combination would be sensible treatment.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 11:52 am:

Dr.O. isn't panalog an anti-bacterial/steroid? The only thing that has touched his skin in the last month has been either dermavet(panalog) or triple antibiotic ointment. Is there something else I should try? For the last couple weeks I haven't put anything on it....trying the If I ignore it it will go away approach Obviously that isn't working either!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 12:13 pm:

If there are multiple layers of dead skin over something that still needs to heal underneath, I would be tempted to try Granulex spray:

Granulex Spray:

"Granulex is a spray that is used in dogs, cats, and horses to treat wounds. It comes in an aerosol can, and you spray it onto the wound. It gets rid of junk in the wound that inhibits healing - stuff like dead tissue, external debris, and pus. It includes an enzyme called trypsin, which helps the body get rid of dead tissues and materials that would otherwise stay in the wound."

I have used this with success over the years.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 3:07 pm:

Thanks vicki that's a thought The white leathery stuff seem to originate from the black ring ring around the perimeter. The dermavet did soften it up, but there is scar like tissue under the black ring... Dr.O. I don't know what I could have put on it to do this. I used icthamol twice better than a moth ago I believe. Other than that it has been dermavet or triple antibiotic mixed with ivermectin paste once.. I have used icthamol on Hank before with no problem.

I think I have to get rid of the black ring before it will hopefully grow normally. It's funny the black ring and the scar tissue underneath it is a perfect circle, I don't think I could apply anything in a perfect circle if I wanted to. HMMMM I wonder if he wacked this on something that was a perfect circle...I'll have to look around their pen.

Would getting the black circle off and then applying Granulex be a good idea?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 10:26 am:

Vicki, I do not this this would not be an indication for Granulex. It's trypsin formula is designed to digest necrotic tissue. What we see above is an acceleration of the normal exfoliation of dead skin cells.

If I had a area of skin that looked inflamed, I would strongly consider keeping the area clean and dry and the use of a steroid / antimicrobial like Panalog or perhaps a mixture of OTC hyDrOcortisone and triple antibiotic to keep the costs down though slightly less potent.

Reviewing the history this problem with the skin goes back about 45 days. Consider the possibility that your recent treatments may well have improved the outcome. There was a time when it looked like the skin might necrose out leaving a deep ulcer.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 10:50 am:

Thanks for the clarification about tissues Dr. O -- very interesting.

I was under the impression that this skinned over area no longer has a sore at the surface, so am trying to envision the antibiotic treatment getting to where it needs to go, but perhaps I misunderstood.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 3:45 pm:

Ok thanks Dr.O. I put the dermavet on it last night again and it does look better, should I continue to use that until the new skin looks normal?? If it ever will.

Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 7:16 pm:

Oh wow, so I went to apply the dermavet tonight and most of the black ring is coming off... it is very thick stuff. Since this is coming off, his fetlock almost looks normal (as far as the swelling goes)

Dr.O. now that I am seeing progress, should I also be putting the dermavet on the pink skin too and for how long? To tell you the truth at this stage I don't care what this Panalog stuff costs as long as it is working! This is great, I'll take a pic tomorrow to show the difference

Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 8:34 am:

Where do you think it needs to go Vicki and what do you think needs treating?

Diane, I usually use such creams or ointments 2 to 3 times daily and would treat until there was nothing left to treat: all signs of acute inflammation and infection gone.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 9:01 am:

Thanks Dr.O. I am putting the (panalog) on twice daily...morning and night

As far as acute inflammation and infection, do you mean the pink skin underneath this necrotic, dead stuff?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 4:16 pm:

Dr.O. here are some pictures, I am so thrilled this thing is finally starting to look normal
1st pic I circled the spot that is being stubborn, and actually seems to have some puss underneath the black stuff. I think this Black necrotic skin and the white leathery skin was a good part of the lump...lately



The second pic I circled the black stuff from the side, you can see how far it was sticking out and a good part of it has fallen off with the dermavet



Third pic is his fetlock ALMOST normal size
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 30, 2009 - 4:43 pm:

BTW what would have caused this black skin and leathery skin... Would it have been something I did?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Oct 2, 2009 - 9:42 am:

DianE, I cannot tell from your photos if inflammation is occurring, it looks like it but these are photos and that does not constitute a diagnosis, that takes a physical exam.

When tissues are inflamed it becomes redder but there are other important signs as described at Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses. Hair loss also is a indication of inflammation.

I was never sure what the black stuff was Diane but the skin looks to me like it was exposed to something irritating or toxic but the variety of possibilities is great, could have been a primary infection.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Oct 3, 2009 - 8:11 am:

Thanks Dr.O. I guess I'll never know for sure what caused this, I do find it hard to believe it could have been anything I used...but who knows.

His skin does not look so inflamed anymore it looks like nice pink normal skin and everyday the lump is getting smaller. The last of the black crusty stuff has fallen off. I am going to continue with the panalog until normal skin starts growing, OR at this point do I use something else to encourage "normal" skin. Is it possible this may grow proud flesh?

Thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 1:18 pm:

The vet was here the other day to check one of our calves, he had a graduate student with him. I got into a conversation with her and asked what she was going to do when she graduated. Horses were on the top of her list. SO I said why don't you come on up and have a look at my horses fetlock and see what you think it is My vet approved.

Hank has that black crusty stuff still trying to grow in a circle around where the lump was. He still has residual swelling around his fetlock too, VERY sound tho.

We gave her no history other than there was a golf ball sized lump there at one time. She palpated his tendons and all around where the "scar tissue" is. lifted his leg did the same thing again, she seemed pretty thorough, had a bit of a puzzled look. She examined that felock for 10 mins!! Her conclusion was it was something external with no "soft tissue" involved. My vet started saying something about an avulsion again . I wonder about him somedays! I said what do you think the black crusty stuff is..he didn't even notice it when he checked his fetlock...it is quite noticeable!

I told him I think he was bit by something or got it stuck/or wacked on something perfectly round...the graduate student tended to agree.

So the mystery continues, Hanks fetlock is growing hair back as long as I keep the crusties back with dermavet, hopefully when it is totally healed the crusties will quit. What a weird thing!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 6:59 am:

A little update to this crazy fetlock...don't know why I can't get "normal" owies. I have noticed since Hank has gotten all of his winter hair that the hair over where his "lump" is/was is all swirly/sticking out and has grown in strange. I can still feel a "lump" there and see it.

Yesterday I dug thru all his hair to see what it looked like and I'll be darned if the lump isn't covered with the white leathery/flaky skin again I can't get a good look at it because of his hair. When the vet was here for Sam he commented how Hanks lump was back too...he didn't look at it, but it is very visible even with all of his hair.

His fetlock did go back to close to normal size after my last update, so I have to think this is the build up of the leathery skin again. I can't really treat it in this weather I don't think, between the cold, snow, and excessive hair?

Dr.O. is this a form of scar tissue that I won't be able to get rid of? the hyperkeratosis you mention?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 2:27 pm:

Interesting, Diane.

Hope that this won't cause Hank any more trouble.
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