|
|
Discussion on SOOO confused! Trimmed too much or too little off sole???
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 1:27 am:
Hi there DrO,
I've been in training with the American Asso. of Natural Hoof Care Practitioners (AANHCP) since Feb. and have been trimming my own 6 horses since January. To me, nothing about our trim method, which is based on the wild horse model, is difficult to figure out, except the sole trimming. Specifically, "false sole". Now my yearling colt has a problem in all four feet that I cannot figure out who is right as to the cause.
Let me explain. I live in high desert (wild horse country) conditions, and my horses have over 5 acres of sand and sage to play in 24/7, which they do lots of. Their feet become so hard and slick this time of year that it is very difficult for me to tell if anything needs to come off the soles, because there is nothing that flakes off or is chalky whatsoever. It is smooth and hard - you cannot use a hoof knife even on the frogs unless you are really strong. I went to the four driest states in the country to see and learn how to trim such hooves with various mentors, and I swear I saw nothing even close!! My vet said my horses, and his wife's, have the hardest, driest hooves he's ever seen. But they are healthy in shape and form and balanced, and there used to be rings when they were shod and there are NONE now, in any of the six. There are no chips, cracks, flares, etc. I see very minor thrush in the winter, and otherwise only if I'm not careful about trimming along the sides of the frogs to remove flaps.
Before I did my mentorship string, at the beginning of May, I was feeling very confused about their soles - did they have false sole built up because I wasn't taking anything off?? Was it "compacted" as I've heard it described? I experimented and took off - using half round nippers - some of the sole around the tip of the frog and along the sides of the frogs, where it had built up into a ridge of sorts, on 3 of the horses. Up till then I had not touched the sole. I left my main riding horse's soles as is during this trim cycle to compare. I only did this on one trim, and a month later one of the horses had bruises on his hind feet and was quite sore for a week. The second horse was more tenderfooted on rocks than prior to this more aggressive removal, and 3 months later he is STILL not back to baseline when it comes to riding on stoney/rocky stuff. The third horse is my poor yearling colt. He became even more tenderfooted on stoney packed roads while being hand-walked than he was prior to this particular trim, which was in May. My main riding horse has remained as capable as he's been all along as far as riding on rocky stuff (he's the one I left the sole alone).
So I've been thinking all along that I did a very wrong thing, and since that early May trim I have not touched the soles on any of them. Well over this past week I notice the colt acting VERY tenderfooted even on just the sand in the horse field, especially when turning on his front feet, and upon close exam of his soles on each foot, I could see, on each side of the apex of the frog, perpendicular to the centerline of the frog, a long fissure extending across 2/3 the way over to the white line; they looked nothing like the usual tiny spoke-like fissures all my guys have around the frog apex. When I probed them with my hoof knife, it was apparent that the ones on the front feet were actually slits that lead right into the sole corium. The soles are soft and thin around the frog apex and the fissures. My first thought was that the colt's soles had not recovered from my too aggressive trim three months ago, and they bruised and had subsolar abscesses. But I had never read about or seen this type of opening to an abscess in a hoof.
Well my vet said they were not actually abscesses, yet, and he sees about 1-2 cases like this a year, versus a thousand abscesses per year. He said he sees it in hooves that are extremely dry like mine, where excessive dead sole material is NOT removed, and stuff packs into a fissure and gets pushed deeper and deeper right through and INTO the sole until it tracks right on in to the corium. He looked at one of the other horse's hooves and told me to remove a lot more sole material right around the frog apex, including right under P3, than I had been, because it was doing nothing but acting as a potential trap for dirt and debris.
So now I am entirely confused. Pete Ramey, world-renowned barefoot trimmer and primary clinician in the AANHCP, is so adamant about not removing sole material in this area, the "toe callus", unless it is false sole, and even then he leaves it if the horse is already tenderfooted on rough terrain, allowing exercise and movement to remove it slowly.
But I don't even know what you would call this condition. How is it that the exact same positioning of "slits" in the sole has appeared on all four feet?? There are actually other more "typical" fissures in spoke-like formation as I said before around his frog apexes, but they are not opening into the laminae!! And my other horses have these spoke-like fissures too but no problems with them.
My vet really pared out the sole all along the length of the fissures, both cranial and caudal to them, leaving the colt with little sole in the entire front third of the foot. He told me to trim more aggressively on my other horses. I just have such a conflict in my mind because of what happened after I did so in May, with more tenderfootedness and even bruising in the one horse. HELPPPP!!!
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 6:36 am:
Love to hear answers about this also. I am dealing with problems from barefoot trimming 7 months into it. The first 5-6 he had the most perfect feet.
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 7:36 am:
This sounds like bad cracking of the sole, Cynthia. My horses always lived and worked on sandy and rocky terrain and high temperature and here's how I think it works:
The sole needs to develop some thickness before exposed to dry, hard, tough terrain. If you expose the hooves to such terrain gradually, the sole will become thicker and then when it meets real extremes it will develop a very tough outer layer.
This layer will often crack as a result of its hardness, but there is enough soft, live sole under it for the crack not to reach tender tissue.
If you remove the sole's thickness and expose the hoof to extreme temperatures and very dehydrating footing like hot sand, the whole sole will dehydrate and crack before it has a chance to develop some thickness. There are good chances this crack will expose sensitive tissue and be very painful.
Of course, thinning the sole of a horse who is used to a thick one will buy him some bruises until he figures out that we don't step carelessly on the same things anymore. That will make him ouchy and careful of his step and less active, which does not contribute in building thicker soles. So more bruises come, and the torture seems endless.
The way to break this is, I believe, simple. Protect their soles until they're thick, then expose them gradually to heat and dryness. Once they're thick and dry and hard, don't touch them.
All this, of course, if the horse does not suffer lameness for other reasons.
|
Member:
36541
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 8:37 am:
Hi Cynthia, any chance it is a nutrition issue since it is in your youngest horse that you are seeing the most pronounced abnormality. Has he had different nutrition coming up than your other horses when they were his age? Are you in an area where chronic selenium toxicity is a possibility? Dr. O's article is comprehensive on that. Perhaps it is worth considering given that all the feet look pretty much the same... Stacy
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 8:58 am:
Hello Cynthia,
I have to be careful here because I deal with horse feet in a completely different environment than you have but I will give you my thoughts.
I am not sure your vet and Mr Ramey are disagreeing: it depends on how you want to define false sole. I have always thought the term applied to sole that was undermined by fissures, dirt, moisture, and microbes. False sole is harmful because it speeds up degeneration of the deeper sole. If there are fissures deep enough to trap dirt and moisture I think everyone would agree to remove them. We frequently see fissures like you describe and don't associate them with anything other than the sole has cracked as it has grown out and simply pare it away. It is often surrounded by flaky, chalky sole material making you think excessive moisture has weakened the sole.
Now to your colt. The quadrilateral sensitivity even on soft ground suggests severe bruising or mild founder to me. Following the episode of being trimmed to close in May the feet may have not have completely recovered making complications like these probable. We have occasionally overrode our barefoot horses on gravel roads creating bruising that required as much as 9 months before the horse was back to normal. Unfortunately our horses live on pastures that are usually moist at least once a day and sometimes wet for a month or longer and do not get much of a chance to toughen as you describe except during a very dry summer. These experiences have lead us back to shoeing most our horses on at least the front if we are going to be riding gravel roads.
One last thought, horses walking around stiffly also should have injection reactions with a sore neck or myositis considered.
DrO
|
Member:
36541
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 9:22 am:
Sorry guys, that was ignorant of me. I see now that you don't have any external hoof changes, and you have likely already considered selenium. My suggestion was a case of "a little knowledge being a dangerous thing!" I'll just keep quiet now... 
|
Member:
Jojo15
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 11:29 am:
cynthia, this is a classic case of following the man and not the horse. Each of these gurus give you ammunition to spark your own creativity in how to handle your situation. Follow them to the letter and you start having problems. I did. follow the hoof, and i'm starting to solve it.
My terrain is polar opposite of yours. But i still use a hand grinder for trimming. So much easier. And faster, and you can shave off millimeters instead of whole flakes. I'm starting to see some concavity after the fourth trim.
sole trimming is contentious but without pulling out the dead sole you won't get that concavity you are looking for in a healthy hoof. you figure if left it will help the hoof more, but what its doing is putting more pressure on other parts of the hoof. right? have you worked on the bars? and are they laid over? or contracted? When you don't take sole off then you aren't allowing them the space to correct themselves. Without correcting them than they have no way to go but in. creating more pain. I gather that your last trim in may might have been on target, BUT you might have gotten carried away. The foot was used to the sole being its padding and when you did trim it away then everything started to breathe, so to speak.. took the girdle off... It goes against reason and teaching but a thicker sole does have more concavity. If you can't get it to happen naturally you have to help it along. I have the same issues but different environment.
don't get frustrated. I did too. But the more you learn about all the trimming styles you will see what you need to pull from all of them to get what you need from the horse.
I literally went back to getting a farrier out to trim my horse. They are the backbone of the hoof. And when my farrier comes out to trim, its a glorified pasture trim. THEN i go in (after he leaves) and do little touches to the hoof. I know that i don't KNOW enough about dissection, movement, hoof form, etc in the real world problems. Reading and learning is one thing but nothing beats the experience of someone that has been doing it for a long time. So doing all yourself all on your own is also a bit frustrating.
Have you started soaking? or having an area of pasture that is wet alot? that sounds counterproductive but it helps feed the sole. water daily. And you might need to trim every few days too right now to get what you want. Look up abrasive trimming to learn more if interested.
So how far along are you in your certification?
|
Member:
Jojo15
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 12:14 pm:
Stacy nothing ignorant at all in your comment. Can't learn if you don't throw it out there. I sometimes do, based on what you know, or what you think you know. if it pops in your head subconsciously it could be on target to some degree. Selenium def. ususally causes white muscle disease problems in goats. I think selenium toxicity is directly related to horn and hoof growth. (goats) So you really are on target in that regard. Is it the same for horses? i don't know. But it is something not to be pushed aside. Maybe that is a component to the problem of such hard hooves, cant see the flaky sole, fissures in the sole, etc...
|
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 7:34 pm:
Although it has been said a million times no doubt on this website, thank you all for providing a sense of comfort and answers to our questions.
Christos you are a genius, as are you DrO! Christos' explanation makes such perfect absolute sense - here are four feet with exactly the same defect, in the exact same location on all four feet, and I trimmed excessively just before we dried out here in Nevada to the extreme degree that we do. That's EXACTLY what those fissures and the surrounding sole look like!!! Like the sole was too thin (thanks to my mistake) and then it completely SHRUNK from dehydration and ended up of course, by the laws of physics/biomechanics, with the problem fissure in the same location, the low point in the "bowl" of concavity on his soles. I have seen the fissures and dirt lines you are referring to DrO on other horses' hooves and it always amazes me how dirt can get trapped underneath sole material. My horses have never had this at all, not when I removed the sole material back in May and not now. When I removed that hard sole back then it was homogeneous thick stuff, on all 3 horses, and I never saw dirt, debris, or chalky sole under it.
My gut tells me to leave the soles on my other horses alone. They get so much movement due to a very active herd boss I bet if I put a GPS on them it would be miles we're talking about per day. How could their soles not be exfoliating on that abrasive sand with that much movement, not to mention the trail riding miles we do? Each month when I go to trim, there is barely any wall to take down - rarely use the nippers. I do keep the bars level with the sole, which has concavity all the way up to the heel buttresses, so the bar follows the sole back up to the heel buttress. The frogs are hard as rock, and maintain themselves level with the heel buttresses at their widest part. If I have to take a tiny bit of heel down, I rasp the frog back there along with the adjacent heel buttress.
We actually have selenium DEFICIENCY problems here in NV. I test my hay and it always tests low. INterestingly, my Colorado mentor had actual cases of selenium toxicity in horses and their hooves SLOUGHED off slowly. They also lost their manes and tails completely. He got them through the hoof problems using natural hoof care principles, nothing more.
DrO, I don't see any evidence externally whatsoever suggesting founder, chronic or acute - no heat, dig. pulses, no standing back on his heels, still wants to run with the other horses at times, no rings, no deviation in the angle of growth coming from the coronet versus the rest of the hoof wall, etc. It all just seems to fit Christos' theory. The colt was raised last year on pasture in Bozeman, MT, then I got him in Oct. as a four and half month old weanling. The ground by then was starting to get rained on and then we had our usual winter, with the ground staying relatively moist and soft compared to summertime. Being on soft stuff all his young life gave his soles no reason to really thicken up like a horse growing up on rocky terrain, then along comes Cindy with half rounds and there goes some of what little he had. I can only hope this post helps someone else not make the same mistake. Also, the fact that the other two horses I did the same thing to got sore - one bruised - makes me also think I wasn't removing false sole, but rather healthy sole.
I honestly don't think "hard hooves" is the problem, unless you get the scenario set up here as described by Christos. If you ever trimmed a mustang's feet, you would have to agree. They are so hard, so thick-soled it would blow you away. They live in the same environment as my guys, only worse because they have rocks, LOTS of rocks, to travel over. And they put out more than enough horn to deal with it, because the hooves respond and adapt to the environment they live in. I don't believe in allowing horses to get their feet wet multiple times a day or even just daily; moisture comes from within. People point to the mustangs and how they bathe and stand in water holes. Well they are only visiting the water once, maybe twice daily in most situations, and not even that much if they use stock tanks out there, and the minute they step out onto the dry sand, their feet are dry. I always think of what happens to my hands if I get them wet repeatedly while working outside in our environment: it sure feels good when they are wet but once they dry it's hell - talk about cracking! And my lips - the more I lick them the drier they get. And those little microbugs just LOVE moisture.
DrO, why did you opt for shoes for your horses instead of boots?
Jojo, lots of good advice, except the water I have an angle grinder, but I wanted to be sure I knew what I was looking at and working on and removing with traditional tools, before I put it to use. I honestly think "feeling" the sole and the other parts of the hoof with hand tools, as well as the visual aspect, are important to grasp before using a power tool. I also feel more in control at this point in my training with my own weak muscle power! Pete Ramey, & Jaime Jackson, pound into our heads that you don't carve out concavity, you let it build as the sole thickens, and I've seen that for myself. Nothing about trimming has confused me much if at all the way we were taught by the AANHCP instructors and mentors, except the darned false sole thing! I'm about half way through the certification, at a level where we are doing clients' horses. When I did the excessive sole trimming I had not done my mentorship string yet, where you get to work with field instructors, but as I said, even though I chose the driest states in the country to visit, none of the horses' solar surfaces, unfortunately for my learning purposes and for my horses' comfort, looked like my horses'!
Cindy
P.S. DrO, don't forget to tell us why you chose shoes over boots. I thought I had read in the past where you were using boots, and had the full spectrum of hooves, some needing none, some needing all four hooves booted. Maybe this is the wrong forum to discuss this.
|
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 7:36 pm:
Another P.S., interestingly, I have not seen any outward signs of bruising on my colt on his one white foot, or in the white lines or walls, although I'm sure this doesn't rule it out.
Cindy
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 9:08 pm:
Hi Cynthia,
I have a similar problem, though not quite the same. I had an almost certified trimmer do my horse and friends for about 7 months. The horses feet were great until 2 months ago now they are lame. I had another fully certified trimmer out to get her opinion.
Firstly I am on extreme rocky terrain and some of the ouchiness started with the wet season. What lamed the horses was trimming the bar to the sole and taking the frog back to the heels.
What i get from the new trimmer is that they had a new clinic by Jamie Jackson doing a more aggressive frog and bar trimming. That's what we think my old trimmer did. It was way too aggressive. In my case the frog had grown lower than the heel which makes me think the heel was too low to begin with. The heel should be at the same level as an untouched frog no reason to trim the frog its extremely painful as we have found out. Ramey does not advocate touching the bars or frog except for cleaning up. My new trimmer speaks to Ramey weekly and I had to write a letter stating what happened with the new trim so as not to have others lamed by it.Are you doing the Jackson trim or the ramey trim? All in all what I get out of what i have learned is. Only lower the heels a little at a time to match the frog. Do not cut the frog just remove old stuff in the crevasse if needed. The sole can be just scrapped with a hoof pick to remove old flaky dead sole , no need to cut anything. remove excess growth and roll the edges. just like in the four point trim as recommended in this site.
I think I mean think that they are trying in the AANHCP to stop the recommendation of frog cutting that way you at least get a better idea of heel height. My old guy would trim the heel and bar to the sole then cut the frog to match it. Disaster. I had a horse who could be ridden on any terrain with out an ouch now he can not even walk on gravel at all . I think he was fine the first 5 months because the trim was less agressive. Less is always best. Are you able to ask Ramey? I am sure he would help .
Katrina
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 10:09 am:
Cynthia, horses shed their soles sometimes.
The whole sole comes off in almost one whole piece like a pad, exposing fresh, healthy, live sole. It takes some time, two three weeks from the time you understand that this "false" sole has separated from the underlying healthy sole (by tapping with the hoof knife you can hear there's something hollow under the sole you see) to this "false" sole shedding completely.
Often, by the time it comes off, thrush has developed between this "false" and the "real" sole, but nothing serious, you can usually clean it in one go.
When this false sole starts delaminating from one side, I will not trim the whole sole down. I just delaminate as much as I can with the hoofpick and trim those pieces off to prevent thrush.
If the horse loses a false sole all in one piece, I will protect it for a while before exposing it to very rough conditions.
Rough conditions do include hot sand, gravel and pavement, I believe a horse with thin soles can get blisters on very hot surfaces (however, don't take my word for this, I am not sure).
|
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 4:28 pm:
Katrina,
I have never trimmed my horses' frogs at all except for the "flaps" that form on the sides when they start covering the collateral grooves and trapping material and thrush in there. Otherwise, as I said, they maintain their own height at the level of the heels due to the fact that my horses are moving so much and compacting it down into thick callus. All the horses I have trimmed so far other than my own no matter where I am have frogs that are WAY tucked up in the foot, shriveled and soft. This prevents proper stimulation (pressure and release, as the hoof is weighted and unweighted) and growth. However, if I have to remove heel as part of my horses' routine maintenance trimming, which usually is never more than 1/8 inch or so, then the frog will be a hair "higher" (as you are looking at the solar surface with hoof in your lap) than the heel, and that is NOT good. Pete and Jaimie both agree that the frog should not be protruding past the heels, which would create way too much pressure on it for most horses to tolerate. THIS would definitely be painful over the long term and very unnatural. How can the frog protrude past the heels unless it is either prolapsed or someone has trimmed the heels too short too fast, i.e. shorter than the frog itself? So when the rasp is travelling across the heel, I let it float over that side of the back of the frog to level it with the heel; we're talking shaving off a minute amount here, on MY horses. I'm not worried for one minute about taking that little off, and if it means that the frog will be getting "passive" pressure as opposed to "active" pressure, then it's a good thing. I have never seen frogs as thick as my horses', or as hard. There is no question they are as healthy as can be. Pete has a recent article on his website about frog trimming, and I agree with it totally. I have also studied his article on "Heel Height: The deciding factor", and it makes total sense. I would never lower heels INTO live sole just to get the frog closer to the ground, and I would never lower long heels so fast as to go below an unhealthy frog. I don't remove frog except as I stated above, or to remove diseased tissue (thrushy, rotting). THe frog must have stimulation to stay healthy, and that means staying just below (when looking at the solar surface from your lap) the level of the heels. No I don't lower heels to get the frog to this point, unless the SOLE says I can do so. That is Pete's, Jaime's, and the AANHCP's whole deal: the live sole tells you what to do. (It's when you can't tell where that level is that you run into trouble, like I did back in May) Trimming a frog per se is not painful if you are removing diseased tissue that is doing no good; I saw Pete do this on every horse that was trimmed at his clinic.
Trimming bars should not be painful unless you are taking them down below the live sole, and thus taking live sole with them. I trim the bars per Pete and Jaime's recommendations, as they are both similar in their recommendations. I did my cadaver trimming clinic with Jaime, and he did not trim them any different than Pete. If the bar has washed over or as some say "laid over" the sole, it has to be trimmed, as again, dirt and manure can be trapped there. I have seen bars that were so overgrown they covered most of the sole on the front half of the hoof! Have you ever seen Jaime's wild horse hooves? The bars are at the same exact level as the sole; other than the differences in coloration, you can't even tell by feel or visually that there is a bar there. Of course, this is due to the many, many miles these horses put on their feet, unlike our own horses. However, he has also seen some that are indeed more laid over. It also becomes a matter of semantics when we all talk about that; what is "laid over" to one person may not be to another. I don't doubt for one second that I have NOT been aggressive with bar trimming. In fact, my vet looked at what I had left on both my colt and all my horses, and told me to get it removed. I disagreed so they are left as is for now. I have also heard from some mentors that leaving the bars overgrown or laid over can actually CAUSE bruising, and I did see a couple horses who did indeed have bruising under that laid over material. So it's a judgment call sometimes.
Again, if you study Pete's articles on his website, along with the many pictures, you will see that Pete does indeed trim the bars to about the level of the sole, or at MOST 1/16 inch above it. What he tells you NOT to do is cut into live sole to lower them. Pete recommends lowering the heels to the same parameters, UNLESS you have a ton of heel to take off and it would be too dramatic a change all at once, OR, very commonly, the horse already has pain in the back of the foot because it is underdeveloped, including frog, digital cushion, and lateral cartilages. Then as he states in his Heel Height article, you have to gradually lower the heels as the frog allows; you "follow" the frog down as it (the frog) compacts into dense callus and is able to tolerate more normal pressure, as it and the rest of the back of the foot develop into more normal adult horse parameters.
Otherwise, on maintenance trims of HEALTHY feet, you do take the heels and bars down to 1/16 in. above the sole, or about level with it. Unless your horse is doing what wild horses do, or is one of those rare self-maintaining horses running out on a thousand acres, you HAVE to remove wall at the heels, quarters, toe (assuming the horse is landing correctly and not wearing his toe excessively) and a tiny bit of bars at each trim. Some trims on my horses there is so little bar to take off I leave it for another couple weeks, but when you aren't going to see a client's horse for 4-6 weeks, you don't have the latter luxury.
I don't know that your previous trimmer did anything wrong per se. If your horses' feet were already transitioned, and he/she was doing a maintenance trim, then there should be no problem with removing an equal amount of toe, heel, quarter, bar, and a tiny bit of frog, as this is what a trim is all about - removing what WOULD have been removed had the horse put on as many miles as a natural (wild, whatever you want to call it) horse would, but didn't because our domestic horses' lifestyle doesn't allow it to happen naturally. If the feet were not healthy to begin with, this may not apply, as for example in the case of an underdeveloped back of the foot with associated pain, as discussed above per Michigan State Univ. (Bowker) and Pete Ramey.
|
Member:
Tuckern
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 6:36 pm:
Cynthia,
I have enjoyed reading this discussion, thank you for bringing it up. I am pretty much in the same boat as you, so confused about what I really should be done with my horse's soles when I trim. In all of my readings, there seems to be two exactly opposite opinions on the matter. One side says to remove the sole, because it does nothing good for the horse, traps dirt and doesn't allow the live sole to callus. The other side says leave the old sole, because it gives protection to the live sole underneath, and when the foot/live sole is ready, the old sole will exfoliate and will come off easily.
I can understand both sides, thus the reason I get so confused when I start thinking about it, and wonder which is the right thing to do when I trim.
I trim both of my horse's feet, and each horse has different feet when it comes to trimming. My gelding has never had shoes. His feet tell me when they are ready to be trimmed when the dead sole gets crumbly, and falls out in chunks, leaving nice waxy live sole underneath, and then I just trim down the wall, heels, toe and bars. He doesn't do much self trimming because he lives in a large dry lot paddock, not on pasture, and I'm not doing anything with him right now (he's only four).
My mare, on the other hand, is the difficult one. She is the reason I learned how to do my own trimming. After having farrier after farrier come out and mess up her feet, the last one leaving one big bruise on all four feet, I decided to pick up a rasp. I've owned her for 2 1/2 years, and while she has been barefoot since I've had her, the previous owner did have her in shoes off and on. So with her, I'm trying to fix her feet. The frogs on her front feet are very narrow and not developed very well, and the heels are contracted. And her feet don't exfoliate like the gelding's do. Her toes look good, with good callus and concavity starting to form, but the back half of the foot doesn't exfoliate the dead sole. So, that starts the dilemma, do I trim off the sole on the back of her foot, or leave it? I heard recently in one discussion on another board that if the front half of the foot exfoliates, but not the back half, then the horse is not loading the back of the foot correctly. I can see their point, no use means no wear. But when I ride my mare, or just watch her walk, about 95% of the time, she lands heel first.
So frustrating.
Right now, when I trim, I do take off the majority of the dead sole, but I don't think I'm getting down to live sole, maybe within an 1/8 inch or less. I get nervous taking too much off, because I don't want to make her sore. Hopefully, as her foot gets healthier, and her frog gets more developed, some of these problems will go away.
Anyway, just wanted to share. Thanks for reading my little novella I've got going on here.
Nicole
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 17, 2006 - 7:20 pm:
Cynthia,
I by no means meant to say that's what you are doing. I guess maybe it sounded like that because I am upset by what has happened to mine and my friends horse. In my case the trim
did change a lot especially the last trim. His toe was left longer not rolled and aggressive frog was trimmed. I was told that it might have been caused by a new way of trimming. I actually have to talk to Jamie Jackson as he wants to talk to me about it. I will let you know what he says. What I see in mine is that just before trimming my horse ( has the most beautiful frog would hit the ground before the rest of the foot. yes making it sore. Would you not agree that it must mean the heel is to low.? Just picking your brains.
Ok if yes would you not let the heel grow a little? His frog was ouchy when it got below heel level but not as ouchy as when it was cut.
As for the bars that is controversial. Seeing all the barefoot pictures yes I agree with what you said, however I think they are leaving them a touch now, I maybe wrong but that's what I am getting. I don't think that that it was the bar trimming that made mine or really any horse sore unless it was trimmed below the sole as you say.
As for the sole trimming seeing horses that have ugly rock hard feet that don't get trimmed much and are as sound as can be I go for the idea that the sole was naturally left to slough off. I am by no means an expert am am an amateur but Just saying what I hear so I get feed back and can learn just like you. If its wet i can scrap a ton of crumbly sole if dry nothing comes off. I use a hoof pick. But I don't agree with soaking dry is better but I do take advantage of nature when it does come off easy.
I personally dont worry about this false sole stuff. It will come off without using a knife. But I understand your worry as with what the vet said and what you have learned. Sometimes I hate too much information.
Katrina
|
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Sunday, Oct 15, 2006 - 12:41 am:
OK everyone,
I'm going to add a new monkey wrench to this weird problem: I was cleaning this yearling's hind feet and noticed blood (a small amount) in the middle of the frog, just at the cranial margin of the central cleft, and the poor little guy was sensitive as heck when I tried to probe and get a better look. I thought it might be a small puncture, and called my vet out. He (unfortunately) started paring away at the frog from that point forward, removing everything down to the sole and almost to the frog corium, looking for a tract or something to tell him what was going on. His conclusion: whatever was causing the sole cracks was also responsible for this pinpoint crack in the frog!! Now I KNOW I NEVER trimmed the frogs on this colt because he packs them down really flat and hard on his own - nice and callused. The really odd thing was how thin the frog was, just like his soles!! I could not believe how little thickness/depth there was. THere is no question in my mind that I was not the cause of this, but yet it did seem to be the same pathologic process/cause as the thin sole with cracks that went into the corium. Now I'm really starting to think this may be nutritional, as was suggested by one of you above. Perhaps I DrOpped his protein levels too fast, although he gets good quality grass hay free choice and has a beautiful coat and is a little on the chunky side (I know, bad mom, but this is from free choice GRASS!). He has, like all the rest of my horses, access to a mineral block.
Now, almost 2 months later, he still really hasn't grown much wall or sole or frog at all, especially considering he is in boots and pads 24/7 (minus a few hours drying out time in the stall each day). Would everyone agree this is sounding more like a nutritional deficiency, or not?? I feel horrible for the not-so-little-anymore colt! He used to run full bore across the 5 acre field every day and he hasn't wanted to do so for weeks.
Thanks,
Cindy
|
Member:
Dr3ssag3
|
Posted on Sunday, Oct 15, 2006 - 11:35 am:
Hey Cindy.
Granted I'm no vet, but I've gone through the mental list of things my vet/shoer would have me do to try to correct the problems you're facing. I've had some good results with my mare's foot issues after putting her on a really concentrated biotin product. She used to have a problem with growing too little hoof wall and having a number of small cracks around nail holes, etc. It may be worth a shot to put your guy on something to see if it makes a difference...can't hurt, right? I'd recommend finding something with both high concentrations of biotin and methionine. I know you're into the natural hoof care, but maybe he'd do well to have some shoes put on until you can get the problem corrected? It would keep his feet elevated enough without causing some of the problems with moisture / bacteria retention that I've been told are associated with using boots. I know you give his feet a break from them, but from what my shoer says, they should only be put on for short periods of time (like turnout) and then thoroughly disinfected after use, just to be safe. The blood coming from the frog worries me. I can't help but wonder if it would also help to treat the soles of his feet with something like betadine solution, to take care of and/or prevent any abscessing? I'd also put him on bute to provide him some relief from the pain of having this degree of sensitivity. Good luck! Dawn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Oct 16, 2006 - 6:25 am:
Cindy, do you, your veterinarian, and farrier all believe this horse forms too little horn for the feet to stay healthy? Or does the horn that is formed seem too weak or brittle so that it breaks off easily?
DrO
|
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 12:22 am:
DrO,
This colts horn is healthy looking as could be. I never suspected a problem other than the fact that he was always sensitive to walking on stones/rocks when I would take him on his almost daily hand walk around the neighborhood. I just thought it was because he lives on soft sand, with all my other horses, and his soles weren't adapted to stones/rocks. He has never had any chipping, cracking, brittleness, flare, or ridges, his hoof form/shape is beautiful, and his soles and frogs have been ROCK hard, like my other horses. Other than a couple months at the end of last year when I first got him as a weanling and I wasn't trimming yet, I have been his "farrier", so I know exactly what's been done to his feet. It is just so weird how thin the whole bottoms are - sole AND frog, even though it looks well callused. And you would never have guessed it based on the nice concavity (naturally - I did not carve it out). The wall thickness I think is acceptable for a domestic horse living in sandy conditions.
I do have him on a proper biotin/methionine/lysine supplement already, but only since this whole mess started a couple months ago.
Regarding the booting 24/7, it is so dry here, and with the way I have managed him, you wouldn't even hardly know it looking at his feet - no dampness, no thrush, and the sole and frogs are still hard, just not polished smooth like a barefoot horse's. THere are thick pads in the boots, and he is obviously more comfy when he's in them. I would not ever consider putting shoes on a growing colt when we can manage him just as well with boots/pads. I do believe what I've been taught about the importance of the entire bottom of the foot sharing in the support/weight-bearing role, and the importance of pressure and release, over and over, to stimulate proper sole/frog/digital cushion/lateral cartilage development. Besides, if I did put shoes and pads on him as suggested by my vet, he would be in deep trouble because every couple of days he dunks his feet in the automatic waterer. With the boots, I can just pull them off, put him in his stall with his mini-flake shavings, and put on a dry boot and pad after an hour. Honestly, natural hoof care practitioners routinely and successfully use nearly 24/7 booting for many hoof problems like navicular and founder; we've just worked out ways to prevent problems.
I did try using Betadine, even though there is no evidence whatsoever of abscessing, but just to prevent thrush. I found it was not necessary. I have more success not dumping anything wet on the bottoms of the feet, even betadine. Also, hardness was not lacking in his soles ever - quite the opposite! You could not get a hoof knife (or at least I could not) into them.
He has slowly, ever so slowly, improved in lameness, but I just don't get why everything is so thin on the bottoms. And why he has this little area in his frog that wants to bleed if not booted/padded. It was extremely sensitive to gentle probing but is a bit better now.
Cindy
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 7:36 am:
I certainly don't see in your posts what the problem is Cindy, did you carefully go through the check list in the article on poor quality horn? Reconsider each point by point and make corrections realizing it may be 6 months to see results. Once you rule out these causes you are left with a horse that has genetically thin soles and you have to work extra hard to thicken them, or consider protection.
DrO
|
Member:
Tuckern
|
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 12:13 pm:
Hi Cindy,
Another thing to keep in mind too is moisture is a necessary and vital thing for horse's feet. Wild horses stand in the water when they drink, so everyday their feet get wet. It sounds to me that your yearling is trying to do that, when you say "every couple of days he dunks his feet in the automatic waterer". I think he's trying to tell you something. I understand that his foot may be compromised because of the hole in his frog. But, maybe consider a moisturizer of some sort?
I keep my horses barefoot and do my own trimming, too, based on Pete Ramey and Jaime Jackson's teachings, and I live in dry country too. I make sure to keep a mud puddle around the water tank, so that when they come to drink, their feet get watered too. I've noticed since I've been doing that, their feet have gotten alot healthier.
Something to consider.
Nicole
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 18, 2006 - 11:18 am:
Nicole this is a misconception in my opinion despite being widely spread by very knowledgeable people. Most horse feet in most environments get too much moisture leading to a breakdown in horn. Like your hands, hooves loose moisture, dry, and crack because of exposure to water. For more on this debate see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Poor Horn Quality: problems with the wall and soles.
DrO
|
Member:
Wolfydoc
|
Posted on Thursday, Oct 19, 2006 - 1:33 am:
Hi DrO,
The only thing I can point a finger at (other than genetics), and even this is questionable in my mind because of how healthy the rest of the horse looks, is too little protein. But that wouldn't affect only one part of the horse I would guess. Nonetheless, he's been on his biotin/methionine/lysine now for a few weeks & I'll keep that up. I just got new hay that tested at 13.6 % protein (dry matter) and I got the minerals analyzed too, and I'll make sure we're alright there.
Here here about the water DrO. Even Pete Ramey said at a clinic that he doesn't believe hooves can be too dry, i.e. he does not believe in letting horses get their feet wet daily. He strongly advocates doing anything we can to dry up their environment. I see so much thrush from wet dirty living areas even though we live in the desert!! And I hear this same misconception over and over and have to try to "de-convince" people about it.
And it's interesting your comment on genetically thin soles. I have always felt that some horses have genetically inferior feet, but Jaime Jackson disputes this in his texts and verbally. How can there be no "bad" genes for feet?? Foot conformation and structure HAS to be influenced to SOME degree by genetics, doesn't it? Yes, environment can play a big or maybe even bigger role, but genes control the rest of the conformation, why not the feet? If breeders don't select breeding stock with good feet, then it seems logical to me that we'll end up with plenty of bad feet out there, assuming it's heritable to some degree. I sure hope my guy's problem is not genetic - we'll just have to see. Meanwhile I'll keep up with the boots.
And wild horses only get to water on average about once, maybe twice a day, in almost all the areas where they are found. Their feet are so dry that the amount of time they spend in water does nothing to moisturize or soften them even temporarily. Have you ever tried to soak desert dry hooves in water to get them softened up for trimming? They'd have to be in water for hours. Those wild horses come out of the water and in minutes their feet are no doubt dried off completely. But they also have feet that cover so many miles they are polished slick as glass and nothing sticks to them, even if they DO step in manure on a stud pile. Our domestic horses are rarely if ever so perfectly honed. Epithelium is epithelium, and I don't think any of it likes to soak in water. DrO, can you give a more scientific explanation of how soaking it causes it to be drier?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Oct 19, 2006 - 10:56 am:
I believe excessive exposure to environmental water removes the natural protective layers, the periople and oils, that maintains proper hydration, and protects from exposure to naturally occuring destructive caustics and bacterial invasion.
Yes it is hard to imagine a "perfect" gene for hoof growth and since conformation greatly effects how feet grow and conformation is hereditary obviously this one very important control on hoof quality that is genetic or at least congenital.
He may mean there is no gene that says, "make bad hoof horn" but this is not well studied. Or more likely he means, "don't go blaming genetics when you are probably the problem". I do know horses under very similar conditions have a wide range of foot quality, but I do agree with the notion we can usually find a man made reason.
DrO
|
Member:
Tuckern
|
Posted on Thursday, Oct 19, 2006 - 6:57 pm:
Well, I am not talking about *excessive* exposure to water here. Nor do I believe that the water makes a wild horse's foot soft because they stand in it to drink. And you're right, they usually do have to get their fill of water just once a day. But, they do stand in the water, so their feet are exposed to it at least once a day. So, if horses are not supposed to get their feet wet, and we are supposed to do everything we can to keep them as dry as possible, why do wild horses do it, and have such wonderful feet?
I would agree with Pete when he says that most horse owners need to do something to dry up/change the environment their horse lives in. Why? Because of DIRTY living conditions, as Cindy mentioned. And maybe that's the key. Most horses have no choice but to walk through/stand in pee and poop. Certainly THAT kind of moisture is not good at all. Thus problems with thrush, etc. Wild horses move around enough that they don't have this problem.
I can also understand that *excessive* exposure to water would eventually dry out my hands, causing them to crack, but I also know that if I keep them super dry all the time, and don't moisturize them, they would crack too.
Nicole
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 6:55 am:
It is not that horses are not supposed to get their feet wet Nicole, and no one is saying that the occasional exposure to water is going to cause the horse's hooves to get soft. Horses live outside, they are designed to resist moisture.
But what we are saying is that water is not a good thing for hooves and that most horses feet already get excessive exposure so there is no need, in fact, it is a bad thing to intentionally wet horses feet.
Your comment about your hands is odd: don't you wash them at least several times daily every day? This is where the drying occurs Nicole. If I do not wash my hands they become oily.
DrO
|
Member:
Tuckern
|
Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 9:57 pm:
Okay, I understand what you are saying about the exposure to water. Thanks, DrO, for bearing with me and explaining several different ways until I got it. :0)
What I was saying about my hands is, sometimes if I'm working on fences or out in the field somewhere, or out in the wilderness camping for several days at a time, I don't wash my hands very often, and they get dry and rough. But maybe that's cuz of the exposure to dirt and stuff.
Nicole
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Oct 21, 2006 - 9:19 am:
Yes work, particularly with dirt, can dry out and a braide your hands and the best moisturizers are those with the highest content of petroleum jelly not water. But better is prevention with a good set of gloves.
DrO
|
|
|
