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  Discussion on Can I improve his jumping style?
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Member:
Dawn

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 12:23 am:

Hello - I'm looking for some advice concerning a green 17 hand thoroughbred that I am training to be (hopefully) an equitation/medal horse. This horse, "Harley", is one of the most proud, athletic horses I have ever seen - so athletic that he can jump a four foot fence from a standstill and act like it was nothing - but this amazing ability seems to be working against me. I would like to hear from riders/trainers who may recognize our problem and give me advice.

Harley is built with his neck quite high out of his shoulder and loves to direct his energy upward; he is one of those horses that can set his head into a high dressage-like frame and hold it there at a canter without hardly moving his neck. This makes for a fabulous ride, you can just sit up and equitate all day long; he is capable of compressing and extending his stride, neck and topline without any effort and has all of the ingredients of a top-level equitation horse - soft, smooth, adjustable, capable - but many times he wants to direct his jump "upward" through his body and head instead of using his head, neck and forearms to round and lift his front end over the jump, resulting in a dramatic loss of impulsion on the landing side of the fence. He doesn't hang his front end when he jumps upward - but since he is using his body to clear the fence, he sort of drapes them in front of him like a canter stride. He doesn't always jump this way - I have witnessed him many times rounding beautifully over a higher fence with his knees wrapped around his ears. My trainer is convinced that by using draw reins to hold his head over the jump that he will be forced to use his shoulders and back to jump into the hand, and I will admit that I am starting to see some improvement, especially over small gymnastics - but I can't help but wonder if there isn't a better way. My common sense tells me that encouraging Harley to move forward more to the jumps and perhaps jumping oxers that encourage him to jump outward would be helpful, but my trainer thinks that this will encourage other problems. The situation is exasperated by the fact that Harley is still green and is very opinionated about working, and can get easily excited and/or angry; if he finds a long distance to a jump and takes it high with his body, he just might decide to celebrate with a buck on the other side; for this reason, we have not introduced spurs and have kept the jumps low (2' - 2'3"). My trainer, who is a very skilled rider and has alot of experience with thoroughbreds, has taken three falls from Harley; two that resulted from her holding his head with the draw reins while he was trying to jump upward over a small (2') jump, causing the horse to stumble on the other side and my trainer to get pulled over his shoulder, and one from Harley hitting the ground on the other side of the fence and doing a pogo-stick type of buck. She is now understandably cautious about jumping him under certain circumstances (cold weather, new place, etc) and I feel that we are at a standstill, or at least a slow crawl. Can a horse who is capable of jumping great but chooses to jump lazily or with the least effort most of the time actually be trained to jump well consistently? Is it true that many horses who jump up through their bodies over lower fences will often excel when the fences get higher? I am getting discouraged and need to hear either words of encouragement or words of wisdom if I am fighting a losing battle. Thanks ! Dawn
Member:
Gillb

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 5:22 am:

Hi Dawn, you sound like you have a fabulous horse! Let me say I do not know much about jumping and there will be others here who have good advice and knowledge, but my first reaction on reading your post was that I would certainly be extremely wary of using draw reins for jumping, that doesn't sound good advice to me as all you are doing is holding his head in when he should be stretching it out. To be honest I am not surprised your trainer fell off while using them!

It also makes more sense to me that your own idea of working him over oxers is preferable to using draw reins.

I would have thought a martingale would be a safer piece of equipment to stop the horse's head from raising above a certain point.

Your horse sounds like he needs to be able to loosen and stretch his neck, is he tense when he carries his head and neck? Perhaps you need to do a lot more flat work with him and work on relaxing his neck, or maybe work over cavelletti.

Some horse do definitely jump better over larger jumps, mine is one!

Good luck anyway.

Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 12:06 pm:

Dawn,
It is extremely difficult, if at all possible, to judge jumping from text.
Nevertheless, a couple of things are universal.
One is that you NEVER fix a horse's head over the jump. What kind of trainer is this? Well done by your beautiful boy, she deserved the ground!
Low oxers often give such a careless "hollow" frame, especially with a horse who is, pardon the expression, playing with you and your silly little jumps.
Higher single fences should get him nice and round. He sounds as if he can jump 2'3" backwards.
Are you sure that he is not constantly in a hollow frame? Will he stretch his neck to the ground if you allow him to take the reins through your hands? Does he use his back during flatwork?

Member:
Dawn

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 12:20 pm:

Hi Gill:

Thanks for replying. Harley is one of those horses that is able to hold his head, with or without draw reins, flexed at the poll, without having to use it to balance himself; he is one of the most balanced horses I have ever seen and seems always able to adjust himself easily; he almost never misses a distance and can always get himself out of trouble over a fence (even if it's ugly). Inevitably, he is not impressed over smaller jumps and just wants to hop over, but larger fences sometimes encourage him to overjump upwards. My trainer feels that by using draw reins over the smaller fences, she will encourage him to not raise his head up so high and he will have to use his shoulders instead of his back to clear the fence. She feels that he would simply learn to brace himself against the martingale, which could make the problem worse. He is very soft and adjustable, not at all tense, so we don't want to encourage him to brace. It's almost like the very things that make him so nice are working against our progression !
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 12:47 pm:

Hi Christos:

Thanks for your reply. First, let me defend my trainer just a little: she never fixes his head to the degree that he cannot move it, but rather to the point where he seems to want to DrOp his head down into a flexible hold. I do think, however, that she has not been flexible enough at times, which caused the stumble over the fences. I do believe that he is playing with us, which has been very frustrating, since he doesn't take the smaller fences seriously and has contributed to the stumbles. And here is where I am confused: do I listen to my trainer, who wants to encourage a rounder jump over a low fence in order to establish a base line, or do we use larger fences to impress the horse and show him that he needs to use forward motion and thrust to jump? He can get quite hot when overfaced or if you make a mistake with him, and I think we are both a little cautious about jumping larger fences after dealing with his tantrums. He will carry himself flat and/or hollow if you just hack with no contact but will easily and beautifully flat in a rounded frame, either with his head stretched down or arched higher in front, with very little contact. His tendency when not being ridden is to carry himself more hollow and upward, with alot of suspension, like a flat-kneed saddlebred. He rarely gets tense unless he gets mad or excited.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 4:05 pm:

Dawn,
I do not mean to be nasty towards your trainer, but mistakes have to be pointed out.
To hang on the reins, especially draw reins, so stubbornly that the horse can pull you off the saddle through them is wrong. Many a good horse have been destroyed this way. All release tecniques over a jump are based on the same principle: If you can't maintain a light contact throughout the jump, leave the head free after take-off and until the front end touches ground, or you're calling for an impressive wreck.
Not meaning again to be bitter or laugh at anybody, a trainer falling after the horse has cleared the jump is strange. The rider is supposed to support the horse on landing and help him rebalance. Can't do that if you're fighting for your own balance, can you?
2'3" is no jump for a talented horse, Dawn. He does not need to concentrate or be serious or careful about it. He learns not to respect the jumps, which is very bad for his future.
Him bucking after the jump means either that the rider landed hard on his back and/or otherwise ruined his balance enough to make him mad, or that the jump was such a little hop for him that just made him feel like offering a couple of these by himself.
Try to tighten the jumping grid. If you see him still flying carelessly over tight double and triple combinations of 2'3", let's say oxer to single to oxer with one step in between, you are dealing with a talent and you'll have to raise those rails to get his attention.
Member:
Althaea

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 8:13 pm:

Hello Dawn -
How old is Harley? Was he used for anything else before you got him? How long have you had him? What type of bit is he carrying? What are your ultimate goals for the horse - hunter, field hunter, eventing or jumper?
I use draw reins lightly and rarely. They are a very good piece of equipment if used correctly. Sounds like they are not being used properly by your trainer however. Draw reins should never be held in an iron fist - they are intended to give momentary cues to round the back (in conjunction with proper seat and leg aids). If their use is continued in this manner I can promise two things:
1 - Harley will not DrOp his head carriage
2 - Harley will end up with a very damaged hard mouth
You need much more flatwork with this big guy - not higher fences. He needs to have the correct frame established before fence work - not during. Use a standing martingale when ridden. The Pessoa Training Device is an excellent tool for use on the lunge to teach and encourage proper frame.
I cannot begin to list how many horses I've had in for training that had been ruined by the type of training you mention. Takes twice as long to correct too.
Be patient, take him back to the lunge, back to flat work - teach him to reach for the bit. Keep your hands light and your seat and legs light. This big guy is most likely bucking after the fence because his mouth hurts!
Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, Jan 11, 2004 - 11:42 pm:

Dawn,
You need to do two things:
1. Fire the trainer
2. Send this fabulous horse to me!
Just kidding...
Seriously, sounds like a wonderful horse. I agree with more forward impulsion. Sometimes a big horse covers a lot of ground and feels like he's going faster than he is in relation to his size--hence the "pop over".
I like the low oxer combo idea that Christos suggested. Or you can use poles on the ground to widen his landing which will keep up the impulsion.
Please be careful with the extra equipment. Don't ruin all that potential.
Reminds me of some horses that are well suited to upper level dressage--high neck set, and action.
They are not always very well suited to the lower level dressage tests where a lower frame is desirable. Some trainers understand that these horses simply won't show to their best until they are at higher levels. That dos not mean that they skip lower level training and go right to the top!
Raising your jumps very high for a green horse would be like going right for Prix St. George level dressage with a green horse.
Yes, he will most likely jump much prettier when he's going 3'6"...but let him get comfortable and not stressed out with all this crap at this phase. Take him out accross country with a nice hack horse and jump some downed trees, let him enjoy it. When he's balanced and understands what to do with himself you can go higher to see how his form improves.
Good luck!
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 3:22 pm:

Dear Athaea, Christos & Erika:

Thank you all for responding to me. The general consensus is NO DRAW REINS. I am thinking about consulting another trainer to at least evaluate the horse's potential in regard to how he is jumping now and what we can look forward to. I have worked with my trainer for nine years and she has almost always been right about dealing with certain training issues - we have been very successful with other hunters that she has helped us train - and I have never seen her use draw reins over jumps like she is doing with Harley; but I believe that she may be getting intimidated by him and so I need to explore other solutions. Harley, now six years old, came from the track to a dirt field for a year before I found him and was nearly starved. His reeducation has been a long one, first building his muscle and weight back up and then convincing him to be a good equine citizen under saddle. I feel (hope) that I have a very talented horse and am in hopes that he can become a top-notch equitation/medal horse for my 15 year old daughter, who is very talented and experienced at showing over fences. So one more question to those of you who have brought along young prospects: can I count on Harley's jumping style, if brought along carefully and slowly , to improve as he progresses to larger jumps (3'-3'6")? We know that he is more than capable of jumping this height - his antics in the pasture convince us daily that he could jump a car - but the way he jumps right now ruins the chance for a smooth, flowing round over fences. Will the knees start to come up and the frame start to round by reason that he will have to use himself that way to jump at that height? Or should I consider turning him into a jumper or event horse where his boldness and athletism can take him another route? It seems such a shame to go that route when he moves so elegantly and smoothly for the equitation ring.
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 5:04 pm:

Dear Christos;

By the way, he has been working great over gymnastics - current setup is ground pole to 2' vertical, one stride to 2' vertical bounce to 2' vertical, one stride to 2' or 2'3" vertical or small oxer. He floats on through this setup very well, can get himself out of any trouble, uses his head and front end well enough but is still not really trying. We often remark that if there was a class for gymnastics, he could win it. The setup of successive fences helps him maintain a certain rhythm through the set. However, as soon as you go back to a lonely vertical or oxer or even a typical two jump line with three or more strides in between, he often overjumps with his body and lands head up and flat on the other side. You can feel him back off one or two strides before the fence, not by actually slowing down but by raising his head and compressing his body. It feels like he is not jumping out of a forward reaching stride. This is what started to raise a red flag about the draw reins to me. I'm not ready to use a small spur on him (too scary) and if you put more leg on him at that point it seems to encourage him to raise his head and overjump. It has been hard to find that place where his impulsion is just right, not too fast, not too slow.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 5:22 am:

Dawn,
He indeed sounds like a talented fellow.
The gymnastics you describe sound too easy, I dare say boring for him. He'd jump the 3 first low verticals in the same frame and out of the same stride length, then simply stretch a little to negotiate the oxer. All too easy.
I suggest you put the 2' oxer in between 2'3" verticals. This way he has to collect for the first vertical, extend his frame for the oxer and recollect for the last vertical.
Varying the distances slightly so they don't exactly match his stride and they're not exactly the same day after day should give him one more reason to concentrate.
Also put longer distances in your grid, say five or seven strides in between two combinations, it will help you both with judjing stride and take-off. Convenient one stide and bounces all the time is too easy.
You can also try what I think is called a hog's back or something like this, that is like a triple bar with the middle pole higher than the front and back. That's a nice obstacle to improve the horse's basquil, though I think you have to introduce simple ascending triple bars before going to this. Make sure, if you try it, that the back rail can be easily seen!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 6:42 am:

Hang on a minute, Dawn,
You say the horse "compresses" his body a couple of steps before the jump, kind of sits on his hind legs and raises his head, without slowing down,then jumps high, more with muscle than with a "reaching" stride.
That's a naturally talented jumper, what is the problem? Why would you want to modify this?
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 11:32 am:

Christos:

We know that he is very talented AND capable, but the way that he chooses to jump the small jumps is odd (at least to me - I am used to the hunters), because he will land almost on all fours sometimes with his head up, with no impulsion to carry on to the next fence. This wouldn't worry me too much except that when he does this, he doesn't tuck his front legs (doesn't have to) but draps them out in front. The draw reins seemed to improve this tendency and appeared to help him jump out and over the fence. It's not worth it, however, if they will mess up his progression with larger fences.
I believe that your previous posts have hit it on the head - he is just not challenged enough, but he also doesn't have a great work ethic, and I need to work with these two problems carefully in order to bring him along safely without creating new problems ! I am considering trying to find another trainer for a second opinion/evaluation.
Member:
Gillb

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 11:47 am:

It sounds like your horse is cat jumping with these small fences. What I mean by cat jumping is that the horse hesitates slightly before each jump, then launches itself upwards almost off all fours, and lands awkwardly, rather than jumping the fence in a good rhythm and shape. So instead of a nice flow you are feeling a slight backing off then a 'ping' upwards. Is this what you mean?
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 12:52 pm:

Gill:

That pretty much sums it up, escept he doesn't slow down, he just softly launches almost straight up from his hocks and back. Not too much of a problem riding it over small jumps, but if the fence is quite bigger or if he is jumping something in a new place for the first time, he can cat jump high enough to clear a four foot fence, and the concussion on the other side can pop you out of the tack. He has been known to buck (more like catapult) us after a bad jump, and so it can be a little intimidating! This is where the draw reins were brought in - and they seem to help him jump out through his neck, shoulder and forearms instead of straight up with the small fences & gymnastics; on landing, he is then in a position to canter out in a balanced manner. Do horses that cat jump usually learn to jump out and forward instead of up and down? I guess that's what this all comes down to - can I expect him to physically jump in a manner so that he can compete on a course, or will he always revert to cat jumping in a bad spot and thus present a danger? I'm more than willing to put in whatever time he needs, but I can't help but wonder if he is not suitable for jumping, even though he is so athletic.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 1:04 pm:

Dawn, will he jump in the same fashion over loose jumps?
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 1:08 pm:

Sounds to me like he should be ridden more forward. My baby jumped like that until I realized even though he has a huge stride, he wasn't forward enough to jump nicely. We have to ride forward and collected for him to not jump too up and down (though mine doesn't hang his knees at all and jumps round).
Alicia
Member:
Althaea

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 1:19 pm:

lol - I call this form over fences "helicoptering". Some Arabian horses are prone to this when they are very green. Very unnerving jumping style. For the high head carriage I would use a medium or heavy average mouth Eggbutt. I'd also use a lot of calvelletti work - no height to them - just rails on the ground at first - start with 4 and work up to 6 -at a walk - set at 2 1/2' to 3' apart. This will begin to develop a proper rhythm and make him look down which will DrOp his head. When he is relaxed at this juncture then graduate to trotting the rails - now set at 4 1/2' to 5' apart. His cadence and balance will develop more fully with these exercises. The next stage is what I refer to as a saw tooth grid. This is rails set between standards with one side on the ground and the other side set at a 6" high max. Again, they are set at 4 1/2' to 5'. This makes him really aware of his cadence and balance, and he should begin to stretch down at this point. If he gets strong through the lines and fights to go faster - pull him out of the grid and circle two or three times (a 20m is fine) - bring him back to the start of the grid and try again. Try to refrain from wanting him to jump any type of fences during this three week education - it will only exacerbate the problem and make him more inconsistant. This boy has to go back to the basics - he sounds like he has been rushed a little too fast.
The peculiar front end position is due to the fact that he doesn't have a clue just how big the fence is. He is attempting to reach for the fence. This tells me two things - one he is not listening at all to the cues of the rider (they should be half halting him three strides out from the fence to gain his attention, and then it is essential to "place" him at the correct distance for a good take-off. Make sure you always use a ground rail for Harley during his early jumping training. He needs to have something to focus on - a clear take-off point.
I would also check his saddle - sometimes a saddle that fits a horse early on ceases to fit properly as the horse gains muscle in different areas as he becomes more fit. Could very well be that the saddle is interfering with his shoulder or putting uneven pressure on his back. Check the pommel area too to make sure he isn't getting bumped on take-off or landing.
It really sounds like this horse has a couple of issues going on. He's green (explains some of the problems), he could be in pain (either from the saddle or the bit he is carrying), he's been rushed a little too fast (he hasn't developed the confidence or the balance and cadence necessary for good jumping style). I'd say the worst thing is the pain - he is reacting violently to some causation (the odd jumping style (head too high and popping the fences) and the bucking after the fence are all clear indicators of a pain reaction. Check the saddle, the bit, bridle and if nothing can be found wrong - call a chiropractor for an evaluation. I've seen miraculous results in some odd cases after a few treatments by a good chiropractor.
I think your trainer may not be at fault. I think she is becoming very frustrated though and perhaps the horse and she need a break from each other so that they can both chill out and then reapproach the problems with calmness.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 2:27 pm:

I agree, ground poles and small cavaletti are great. You want this horse to continue cantering over them, not to see them as jumps to get worried about. It will help him stay calm as they get bigger if he doesn't think of them as such an event. If I am correct, this is the attitude a hunter should project: calm, forward, relaxed--no big deal--all the while showing perfect form and manners, and talent!
By all means check out the pain angle. That can affect jumping style as well as cause the little buck.(Keep in mind, though, one of the most successful Grand Prix jumpers, Gem Twist, was famous for bucking after landing and he obviously was sound and loved his job!)
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 3:43 pm:

Althaea, Erika,
I will disagree with ground poles or cavaletti in this case. Dawn does not report a balance issue, neither does it seem that this boy does not know where to put his legs. He will probably canter over them without the rider noticing the slightest difference in his stride. He doesn't hit the rails, does he, Dawn?
Alicia is probably right. Can it be that his power intimidates you to the degree that you hesitate to push him in front of your leg both before and after the jump?
Member:
Gillb

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 4:29 pm:

Hi Dawn, I think possibly it is all due to your horse's greenness. My own pony has a tendency to cat jump, he approaches the fence okay then often looks at it, dithers for a split second then gets his hocks right underneath him and goes 'BOINGG!!!'. In his case it is due to the fact I don't jump all that often so he probably feeds off my own indecision. With my daughter he is better, although still does it sometimes.

I've seen green horses do this as well, perhaps your horse just needs lots and lots of relaxed riding, not being overfaced with anything so he gets used to popping over fences as part of his schooling and nothing to get worried about.

I have a horse who is a pretty good jumper but he needs an experienced and confident rider to get the best from him. I've taken him for some jumping training but he gets very excited. I think he is also anxious about the jumps so he tends to rush, and we have also had the bucking and squealing after the jumps! I am not the best person to get him over this (I'm a better flatwork person) so we tend not to jump so much, except popping a few logs out on a hack.
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 4:57 pm:

Dear Christos, Althaea & Erika:

Thanks again for all of your input; we can all gain knowledge and insight with these posts! And Christos, you are right about the balance - no problem trotting or cantering over poles, no change in stride - although at a walk he will step on them (?). I don't have a chute to free jump him, and while I haven't jumped him on the lunge in a long time, when I did he just cantered over it, a little better with the head and more out of stride, but once again the jump is quite low and just a hop for him; I do not have a round pen. I believe in chiropractic work (I have another gelding who needs it occassionally) and we had Harley worked on once, when we first started working with him, but not recently. I would not rule out pain but if there is a problem, it's not in his back - he shows no reaction to acupuncture points or pressure points from the saddle. We have used a regular jointed D-Ring snaffle on him since day one and he is very soft and respectful of the bit. He is definately stiffer on the right side, but I understand that this is common with ex-racehorses and he has continually improved on that side. And yes, his power does intimidate me, but when first jumping him my gut told me that he needed me to move him more forward, and I felt more comfortable having more horse moving in front of me to a fence rather than waiting for a deeper distance, but my trainer keeps insisting that he needs to approach the jump with more collection. This is where the draw reins came into play. However, I want to make it clear that Harley seems to love to jump - will try to direct you toward a line in the schooling area - and he has never pulled or rushed to a fence nor does he seem to tense up or get overly excited, unless you don't get his eye on the jump or jump in a new place, etc. I am not afraid to put my leg on him after a jump, because the bucks seem to stem out of landing on all fours, when forward motion is almost stopped, and I feel safer gently urging him onward after landing. If I were training this horse alone, I would probably just keep working at him jumping out of stride and gymnastics, but I don't have the experience with green thoroughbreds, especially like him, so I have been trying to trust in my trainer's advice. However, one thing is clear - I need to reevaluate what we are doing with this horse, and perhaps seek a second opinion from someone who is knowedgeable and not intimidated by him.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 10:33 am:

Dawn,
I have GOT to comment on something you said.
"And yes, his power does intimidate me, but when first jumping him my gut told me that he needed me to move him more forward, and I felt more comfortable having more horse moving in front of me to a fence rather than waiting for a deeper distance, but my trainer keeps insisting that he needs to approach the jump with more collection."

Forward and collection are NOT mutually exclusive!!

You need to ride with a dressage person, as your instructor seems not to understand what forward is. Forward is the horse being in front of your leg, and responding instantaneously to a request to move. It is moving with power and impulsion, off the hind end. It has nothing to do with length of stride, or speed. You can be forward and collected, as a matter of fact, if you are not forward, you CANNOT be collected. Collection is not a dinky little stride so you can sit it, it is more powerful and harder to sit. The horse elevates his front and sits on his hind in collection. Dressage may be the way to get this horse more in front of your leg. I ride hunters, but until I took dressage, I had no idea what forward was, besides running around the arena with my horse on their forehand!!!
Sorry to be so "yelly", but I really think you need to get some fundamentals straight to help you with Harley.
Alicia
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 1:15 pm:

Alicia:

Of course, you are right. Let me clarify: Harley is pretty green (mostly mentally), even though he has been under saddle for 1 1/2 years, and we are still working to develop his topline, which is finally getting very strong. The amount of collection and how long Harley is capable of collecting is an area where my trainer and I disagree sometimes. She will push a horse harder than I would because I always fall back to the old cliche that I would rather go slowly and develop a horse over a longer period of time, to avoid getting the horse sore or sour, whereas she will push & expect the horse to work longer and harder than I would, in order to progess and build muscle. I think that we are both right to a degree. In Harley's case, he is able to collect very nicely but can't (or won't) hold the collection much longer than maybe two or so laps around the acre pasture that we work in. My trainer would like Harley to canter with collection to the jumps (which is correct), but the pace that she wants me to go feels too slow for us. She believes that the horse is more than capable of jumping out of this stride, but my gut tells me I need more pace, with collection, to help Harley with his odd style of jumping, to help him jump outward more since he has more propulsion. She feels that the faster pace stride that I want will encourage him to fling himself more; the slower pace will force him to rely on his balance and body placement when jumping, instead of the faster pace where his momentum can substitute those things. The problem with Harley is that he hasn't shown any consistency with either pace - about 50/50 with good jump/bad jump. So we are debating about the pace and also about the use of draw reins to get that collection when jumping.
Dressage can benefit all horses and I spend alot of time with my horses working on the things that alot of hunter people don't seem to find necessary. I see so many hunters and jumpers that are being trained to jump courses before they are consistent with flat work basics, and I think that is wrong !
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 2:23 pm:

I agree with your trainer's point of view, Dawn.
You don't sacrifice collection for speed.


Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 3:19 pm:

Dawn,
I think your trainer is correct to a certain degree. I don't think you should run to the fence. However, if you are collecting and loosing impulsion, that is just as bad as rushing. I "collected" one of my old horses per the instructions of my old hunter trainer, to the point that he wouldn't jump any more. Of course, she wasn't teaching me how to collect properly, and all I was really doing was slowing his pace and taking away his power (this was a huge boned 16.3 hand TB off the track, had a huge stride, but she didn't tell me how to collect properly). Again, your trainer doesn't understand collection if she wants you to acheive it with draw reins. All draw reins do is position the head and neck. Sometimes the horse's collection is limited by them inverting, and draw reins may help with that, but that is not how you GET collection. You get that by half halting and rebalancing them on their hind ends which should also elevate their withers. Again, I would go to a dressage trainer telling them your goals, and work with both them and your current trainer if you want to.
I am coming from a similar position, but my horses have never been as bad as you describe yours.
Good luck.
Alicia
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 3:41 pm:

I am thinking that we should refer to the jumper's frame as self-carriage and not collection.
Collection is what we do in dressage, and that is too much for jumping.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 3:57 pm:

I wouldn't call it self carriage either. Most people never acheive that with their horses. I think collection in this conversation is just referring to the horse carrying more weight on his hind, not true collection as dressage people refer to it.
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 4:12 pm:

Christos:

I agree. Collection is often used to describe many different things. Harley does not have a problem with self-carriage. In a nutshell, my trainer is using the draw reins not to instill self-carriage, since the horse has that no matter if his head up or down, in front of the vertical or behind it, back round or not - he's just built that way. She is trying to influence his tendency to jump upward by preventing him from raising his head, and she is trying to do this with a flexible draw rein connection that encourages Harley to lower his head. To her, this seems key because when his head is lower (and by lower, I mean not flung upwards like in the cat jump, but some flexion at the poll), he will use his front end in a more desired jumping arc. But there is this nagging question: will she create more problems by doing this? I am beginning to believe so, not because Harley seems upset by the draw rein contact, but because she has contributed to the horse stumbling and her falling, which now is affecting both of their confidences.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 4:53 pm:

Dawn,
All training aids are designed to help the horse get the message. They do create more problems than they solve if they are used abusively.
I always smile when I hear people say that this or that gadget "encourages" the horse to do something he doesn't want to do. Very very rarely have I seen this to be true. Most of the time horses are forced too early in very unnatural shapes just because their owners are in a hurry to achieve what they think they have seen in other horses.
A plain snaffle can be pretty torturous in the wrong hands.
Do not be in a hurry to dismiss your trainer because of a bad day. Discuss the mistakes, hers and yours, and build on them.
It is ok for Harley to be a bit upset until he understands what he has to do. It does not necessarily mean that he is being abused.
I remember one of the best dressage horses I have ever seen, in his first steps. Struggling, snorting and looking in such distress because of that tiny bit of collection, that you'd never think anything beautiful could ever come out of this big, clumsy thing.
Seven years later, he was the National Champion.
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 6:52 pm:

Christos:

Yes - it is hard for me to know to what degree you can "push" a horse in regard to their muscular development and athletic progress - I tend to be "too nice", I think, simply because I haven't worked with alot of athletic green horses and haven't the experience on which to judge, and so I err on the side of caution. On the other hand, I need to find a way to challenge this horse because he needs an outlet for his energy. He needs to be worked with on a regular schedule in order to improve his general attitude and work ethic. He still doesn't realize that he is working for me, not the other way around ! I have always thought that Harley is one of those horses that "you have to ask him to do something, not tell him to do something", because of his tendency to protest and throw tantrums. I need to find a balance between staying safe and insisting on his cmplete attention and effort when I want it, while preserving his willingness and competitive nature.

The best thing that has come out of reading these posts is it has caused me to reevaluate alot of things that I was taking for granted; I am looking at the situation with a new view. Several things have become clear in the last few days:

Harley is still emotionally immature. I realize that he is very herdbound working at home and is still too easily distracted. His respect for his rider needs improvement; his tantrums and lack of work ethic will continue to present problems and must be addressed first. He needs alot more flatwork and alot more exposure to new things in order to improve this. He is still very green and I must be patient and at the same time persistant.

Thank you for all of your thoughtful comments to my posts - you have been so helpful !
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 14, 2004 - 9:04 pm:

Dawn You sound like you are on the right track to me.
Trust your gut instincts. You sound like you are.
You and Harley have a great future together. You knew something wasnt quiet right . I have a hot headed arab that I got 30 days under saddle. Hot horses are a lot work, but are worth every minute as they give you their heart and sole. They are sensative and learn very fast. Good luck and I wish you a wonderful future with your horse.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 8:52 am:

Dear Dawn,
Your last post fully describes all there is to it.
Push the horse, but only in a way you fully comprehend. Less pressure than you can confidently apply, you're stuck in a swamp, making no progress. More pressure than you can confidently apply and you'll find yourself in the swamp again, only this time DrOwning...
Will the pressure you'll aply develop the horse to his full potential? No! His full potential can only be explored in the hands of a great master. So what?
You'll get where you'll get. Just make sur
Member:
Dawn

Posted on Thursday, Jan 15, 2004 - 9:20 am:

Thanks to all that have taken the time to give me suggestions, and a special thanks to the Horseman's Advisor for giving us all a forum to exchange information, experiences and ideas.
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