This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Horse Management » Nutrition & Pastures » Forages for Horses I & II »
  Discussion on Protein / Food Quality affect on horse behavor
Author Message
Member:
Muffi

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 2:40 pm:

I was wondering if any one could give me some more information and or Experience on the care and feeding of winter horses. This is my first snow with horses and they are going BUGGY - I can't ride or ground work my 7 year old gelding (Comet) with out him just wanting to go wild.
My main question is we feed a combination of grass hays. Only because it's hard to get, when we get stuff that is not Dusty, Stemmy or moldy we buy it. We have been feeding 2/3 Timothy, 1/3 orchard grass and just this last week got ahold of some good old Bermuda - We will begin phasing out the Timothy for the Bermuda and have been thinking of cutting back on the Orchard Grass too as they eat it like is was candy (nicest looking grass hay in the bunch) What I am thinking is that the Orchard is high in protein. I just want them to calm down some so when the weather does cooperate we can get a nice RELAXING ride in not a Wild West Bronc Show.
I know there are other factors too besides food. We just moved here and do not have a big enough turnout to really get them to 'run it off' so they get little to NO exercise.(turnouts attached to barn are 20 ' x about 50' not really runable and some of it is on a grade. The older horse (14 y Gelding Midnite) is fine but the big guy - sigh... Anyway. I am thinking that Diet could help calm them if we could lower the protein content of their Free Choice hay diet. that would hold them down till we get the arena build so we could let them run.
PS Dr O I just got thru the article on Forage that stated it looks like 8 % on Timothy and Bermuda. but like I said it very dry so perhaps it has less? also the article stated 10 % is what the Average Horse needs as far as protein intake? is that true? and with the diminished riding do they still need 10 %, and if we cut it back to calm them down will they need vitamin supplements? I watch condition very closely now - they are just right Body wise (it's all in the head I am afraid!)
Member:
Muffi

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 2:41 pm:

I forgot to add - the affect seems to me to be like giving a 2 year old child Kool Aid and cookies for a snack... which is why I think perhaps food could make a difference?
Open for suggestions
Member:
Jockyrdg

Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 4:08 pm:

Hello Muffi;
I am venturing into snake infested waters here and am sure to be gunned down by any number of readers for what I am about to say. Let me put some credibility to the thoughts, I have over 100 hours of college equine nutrition, work closely with a national equine nutritionist and have had to write and interpret numerous articles on hay from the state extension services. There is no single nutrition authority, so much is still being known and discovered.
So protein ---- protein is needed for building and repair and doesn't get dumped into the energy picture in alarm unless there is starvation when the body starts eating itself. Look up your horses weight on a NRC chart, it will give required protein in grams and calculate the amount of grams your horses are getting each day. That is your most official answer. Most excess protein will be urinated away - you smell ammonia you have too much protein. Protein doesn't make your horse bonkers- carbohydrates which break down into sugars do. This is not to say protein does not affect some horses' personalities, but everyone gets hung up on the protein content and forgets to look at the ingredients. More protein- alfalfa, corn, are good sources. They also both have higher concentrations of sugars and other "energy" nutrients. So people look at the protein factor and forget to see what grain/hay is giving that protein.
So instead of obsessing about protein, look at your hay and think "sugars". These nsc's vary tremendously according to variety (legume vs grass), fertilization of field, weather, stage of growth when cut. We are talking very large differences. I can give you a cut of orchard grass with more sugar in it than an average alfalfa, I can give you a cut that is very low in nsc's. You need to get together with your local extension service and get a good education about nutrition and growth stages of the various hays. Where you are tends to get a "freeze dried" effect giving lovely hay with high sugar content.
Limited space is really hard in the winter. The more the horse can be outside the more he becomes "smart' about moving around in it and the less dramatic the effect on his personality. It sounds like there are not a lot of options right now. Can you ride them in the snow? most settle in because a deep snow prohibits a lot of wild behavior and will tire them out a tad, just like us. Hope this puts some perspective on the issue and points you in some directions to pursue.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 10:02 am:

If the article says it Muffi, I believe it to be true and is based on my over 25 years of professional experience with horses and backed up with the best science I can find.

It is unlikely that by cutting back the amount of grass forage they are eating that you will then improve their attitude Beverly. Quite possibly the opposite being able to munch during their confinement keeps them from other problems associated . If their body condition is just right, right now, consider changes carefully and you should never consider orchardgrass a high protein feed. The one unknown here is are you giving any concentrate? Is so what and how much?

Hello Muffi,
If the article says it Muffi, I believe it to be true and it is based on my 25 years of professional experience with horses and backed up by the best science I can find. In short the problem you are having is lack of exercise and not a problem of too much protein. You over emphasize the effect of nutrition and under emphasize the effect of exercise. If their body condition is just right, right now, consider nutritional changes carefully and you should never consider orchardgrass a high protein feed. Cutting back forage may quite possibly have the opposite effect and being able to munch during their confinement keeps them from other behavioral problems.

I first recommend you reconsider your exercise options and do everything you can to get your horses out more. This may require pasture boarding them elsewhere. If you cannot come up with any options we do have an article that deals with how to manage horses not getting enough exercise and you will find it in the topic, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems »Stall Resting Horses.

Hello Beverely, I think your post makes excellent points. However I would like to discuss the solution you give on feeding protein. Every professional nutritionist I have ever known makes a similar suggestion: protein should be fed by calculated weight using feed analysis and total daily NRC requirements. Is this a practical suggestion? It is not that the concept is inaccurate, it is that without prohibitively time consuming testing it is impossible to know within the precision of the NRC tables how much protein is in the forage. You state the reason yourself: the tremendously varying quality of forages. So many things effect the quality, even within the same cutting of hay. Position in the field, the amount of fertilizer that happens to fall, water conditions in that area all change the protein content. Even within a uniform cutting the digestible protein begins to DrOp the day it is stored so what you measure today will be a bit more than what it will be in a month. There are other practical problems with this technique but this is the major one.

Because of these problems, I think it better to learn: general principles of horse requirements, feeding behavior, and average nutritional makeup of forages based on type and quality as expressed as energy content, percentage protein, percent calcium, percent phosphorous, and average oil soluble vitamin content. Then put the information together to come up with a good feeding program and judge your program by looking at your horse’s resulting condition. We have this information in the Overview of Nutrition topic and then explained in greater detail throughout the other topics in the Nutrition Section.
DrO
Member:
Jockyrdg

Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 1:01 pm:

Sorry to everyone if my post implied cutting back on forage would improve attitude, I didn't think I had gone down that road and that is something I would never pull out of the bag without careful analysis of a full diet. I totally agree with your assessment that calculating grams is not practical for all; I suggested it because it is the best scientific method; but more importantly to make the point - people please do not get hung up on protein percentages. Just as you discuss, how do you determine the protein content of something with so many variables. I really wanted to stress looking at carbs/sugars as the energy factor which has more association with feeling "full of it". I must admit to being sensitive to everyone's definition of good or bad being based on protein percent alone, protein in the diet is usually falsely accused for problems.

I would also like to point out another forage variable that people get hung up on. In the East people will buy their hay according to the "cutting," first cutting, second cutting, etc. I suspect a specific time of cutting may be more uniform out West, but here on the Cloudy coast the farmer can only hope he can get in to cut at a certain time. We have had years when a first cutting was well beyond a mature boot stage. People would do themselves a tremendous service to learn the stages of forage growth and how it relates to protein,fiber, nutrients and sugar content.
Alright, me and my little soap box are leaving.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 6:50 am:

Hello Beverly,
I did not get the impression you were recommending cutting the forage, I think it was Muffi who made that suggestion. And, I have long been trying to get folks to look at carb calories and not protein for behavioral problems. And your point about cuttings is a good kick in the rear for me: here we talk about cuttings without thinking that it ain't the same everywhere so I am guilty of this sin. Here the wet springs and dry summers almost always ensure a stemmy first cutting (boot or worse) and a nice leafy second cutting.

So please stay on your soap box as these are all points that need regular addressing.
DrO
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 8:10 am:

If my horses are feeling good and looking good on just a mixture of hay, I'd go with it and enjoy watching them play. I've never had horses get hyper on any forage but sweet feed has affected some of them.

We haven't had decent hay for the last 2 years. There has only been 1 cutting, and it's been very dry and stemmy. First winter I've fed SafeChoice all winter and vitamins with a small amount of corn oil.

Loved your information Beverly, keep it coming.
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 12:13 pm:

Beverly, dittos on your good information. We can't learn too much about nutrition! I buy hay for two horses a ton at a time, so don't always get the same mix of alfalfa/grass, though it is consistently good quality. I've noticed in the past two years we are getting more of a blue grass/timothy which is very nice. My last load was more alfalfa than grass and the horses are VERY happy with that! The only "behavior" change I've noticed is I have a lot less manure to pick up than with the the ratio heavier on the grass hay. Does the protein content influence manure output? I have noticed also, with the higher protein, they don't appear as famished and do no chewing on things between meals. (I feed 3 times daily). Also, is blue grass similar to timothy?
Thank you!
Member:
Muffi

Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 7:08 pm:

WOW thanks guys - I am feeding primarily the hay/grasses free choice. I wasn't going to LIMIT GRASS but Alter TYPE Of Grass. I.E. More Bermuda??
but I neglected to add that they do get some Lakin Lite Pellets Bermuda grass hay pellets very little about a pound each morning and evening, and some Triple Crown Rice Bran - (about a cup at nite & 1/2 a cup in the am)Once or twice a week a little Corn Oil too. then of course some Table salt - and there you have the whole diet.
Carbs - could be the Rice Bran, as that has a distinctly sweet taste to me (no I don't eat hay but I do try supplements to see what they taste like) and they get Psyllium once a month - (No I don't taste that but it smells sweet). could the Sweet Psyllium and the Rice Bran be Carb Culprits you refer to Dr O?
AND YES I Whole Heartedly agree they need more room for exercise, to get it out of their systems like horses should . Riding is limited a lot this winter - by rocky terrain (barefoot horses) and lots of snow over uneven ground(fields) Fear of injury for uncontrolled horses. I expect to have an area fenced off and evened up in the next 3 - 6 months at home where they can indeed kick up their feet and romp. until then I have to find ways to amuse them on the ground or with limited riding areas/ times.
Do you recommend the Calming supplements? as in Quietex or Tripotophane (SPELLING?) types of additives before riding? or some other way ?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 9:24 am:

Muffi you distinctly state you were going to cut back on the orchard grass in your first post did you mean substitute? If so I apologize for the misinterpretation. That is quite a list of neglected things to include in the diet. Though fats and oils are thought to be less "energizing" than carbs cal for cal they definitely cause an increase. Until you get this excess energy thing under control I would start there but if they start to loose condition, putting it back and exercise are your only choices. We discuss these calming pastes in the article I referenced above.
DrO
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC