|
|
Discussion on Teaching halter manners (any, all manners) to a 1900 lb. Percheron Mare
|
| Author |
Message |
New Member:
Njsparks
|
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:14 am:
Hello all,
I have a 13 year old Percheron mare mix. She was always an arena horse and is terrified on the trail. I have tried working with her in a round pen and have been charged at. She is pushy on a lead rope - but does tie and trailer well. It's like she knows she's big and can push people around. I am looking for any and all ideas to work with her and get her to be a respectful trail horse...
Thanks all.
Nance
|
Member:
Hwood
|
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 12:45 am:
Does she STILL charge at you, Nancy? Do you own another horse that your Percheron respects?
|
New Member:
Njsparks
|
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 5:47 pm:
She charged at me the last time I had her in a round pen. I made her work for another five minutes before I took her back to her pasture. I haven't had her back in the round pen since. She is THE lead mare at my place and quickly earns the respect of any visiting horse. I took her over to my neighbors once to see if she would breed, thinking she will calm down a bit after motherhood... she beat the stallion up and wouldn't let any other mares near him. She's a challenge for me. But one on one she's sweet and tender. She ties to a hitching post great and will stand there for hours, as long as you aren't trying to trim her hair with clippers or bathe her. She was treated pretty bad by one of her owners who had her in show. From what I understand she was cross tied, hobbled, twitched, etc... when prepping her for the show... so the sight of the hose or the clippers has broken a few lead ropes and a halter. I have since decided it was best to let the rain wash her.
Thanks,
Nance
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 6:12 pm:
How frustrating for you Nance, but if she's sweet one on one...maybe start there. Baby steps with abused, untrusting horses will take you miles.
How long have you had her?
What did you do when she charged?
What else have you tried?
|
New Member:
Njsparks
|
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 10:12 pm:
I've had her for almost 2 years. I work with her on a long line and can get her to walk, trot and canter. But only from left to right... she will not work right to left. When she goes into a canter she bucks a few times and tries to gallop away from the long line... then slows down to a canter. Those few minutes are quite the physical challenge.
When she charged me in the round pen I squared my shoulders up to her, looked into her eyes and got her to side step me before I ran for safety. So I did win the chicken game. Then I kept her working for about five minutes before I put her back out to pasture.
I can ride her with out issues in an arena as long as there are no other horses there for her to boss around.
I circle her when she does act up and I am in the saddle. I have had her buck while doing circles... luckily I stayed on and made her follow through. We circled much more on that ride but without any more bucking.
I have tried riding her with a riding crop (suggestion from the previous owner) and without... Without a crop she is nervous but not pushy... with a crop she is FREAKED OUT and completely unsafe. If she is acting up and I take the crop into my hand (don't even touch her) she breaks into a gallop and away we go. If I raise my voice and become angry while on her back she bunny hops and bucks and spins until I am off and runs for home. An example of this: One day I decided to take her out after exercising my other 3 horses. It was about sunset so I though a quick ride around the block would do her some good. My dog (a heeler mix) has to be inside when I ride. She nips at the heels of the horses and creates all sorts of chaos. Well just as I am leaving the yard on Patti (the percheron) my dogs is let out by a family member. The dog starts barking, chasing and nipping at Patti's heels. I yell at the dog and at someone from the house to come and get the dog. As soon as I raised my voice with anger, Patti became very unpredictable and began bucking and spinning. I fell off on the seventh buck. Patti ran for the pasture gate. I got up and walked around the house to the gate. There she was pawing her hoof at the gate. It was fear I felt from her.. not attitude. Her heart was racing, she was breathing heavy but not wild in the eyes or snorting. She calmed down as soon as I walked up to her. However, I did the worst thing possible.. I took off her saddle, talked sweet to her and let her go back to pasture. Hind sight is 20/20 eh? I should have had her work a bit with the saddle on before rewarding her.
If I hold onto her lead line and let her have a bucket with some sweet feed I can now wash her back and sides... no water from the withers up. She loves to be brushed if tied to the hitching post... She loves to have her hooves worked with... goofy stuff like that.
It's like I have a horse that is the epitimy of good and evil... I've put her up for sale three times and as soon as the ad go live she is a sweet angel. So, I ask for any bit of advice you would offer.
Nance
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Friday, May 6, 2005 - 10:35 pm:
Christos? Holly? Sue? Chris? This is wayyyyyy out of my league here Nance. I thought perhaps you just got her, I have friends with abused horses and I was going to convey what worked for them. Sorry I can't help, but I'm sure others will!
|
New Member:
Njsparks
|
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 12:18 am:
It's way out of my league too... I am thinking of selling her again but thought I would see if there was anything I haven't tried that may work. I hate the thought of passing her on to someone good and I don't want to see her 'cowboy handled' to 'break' her... not sure what to do...
|
Member:
Hwood
|
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 2:14 am:
Nance,
Oh, I know what you are experiencing . . . It would be so nice to find a new owner for this horse: someone who has the desire AND experience to meet this horse where she is "at" in her mind . . . but don't hold your breath . . . 
If she is going to improve, I believe it will take LOTS of time . . . and the other thing it will take is LOTS of spook-proofing that requires getting her adrenalin level up to the highest level and keeping it there until she just can't stand it anymore, and learns to relax on her own. I remember John Lyons saying that horses HATE being afraid . . . they HATE that feeling and don't want to "be there." The idea behind spook-proofing is that we push the horse's fear up to it's highest level, and since there is a limit to how long a horse can sustain that level of fear . . . when the adrenalin can't go any higher, it will start to dissipate . . . and the horse will start to relax and cease reacting to fearful stimuli.
Since she has all ready charged you in a round pen, you may not want to put yourself in harm's way like that again. That's why I asked about any other horses that you have that may be more dominant . . . so you could round pen her from another horse, but THAT's not gonna work . . .
I can't picture how to stay safe in a round pen and do what needs to be done with this mare . . . Mainly, I would work on very simple gives to pressure with the bit and with the lead . . . from the ground, first, and then riding at all gaits. It will take a long time, but you will be safe if you go only as fast as the mare can go. I guess all I can offer is for you to do what you KNOW you can do with this mare safely . . . and just continue with those things daily, slowly introducing new things, in order to keep both you and her safe, and if you get the opportunity to have her be a demonstration horse in a Lyons or Anderson clinic, then go for it.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 8:18 am:
Hello Nance,
Reading above suggests to me you need to find a good trainer for this horse to either train or take over the horse. I am very concerned about your safety.
DrO
|
Member:
Dyduroc
|
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 8:36 am:
Hello, Nance. I've spent the past 2 years working with my Clydesdale mare on some of the issues you're having with your Percheron. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but am willing to share some of my experiences.
First of all, what Holly said about needing a LOT of time is true. I've been working with my girl for 2 years and am really seeing progress but it didn't happen overnight.
When I got her, she was grossly out of shape, spooked at anything new, had the worst ground manners I've ever seen (she broke one of the barn owner's toes on 2 separate occasions), had no concept of respecting a person's space, was only green-broke under saddle and would only move forward if she chose to, had some real food issues (protective of and aggressive with anyone coming near her food), was terrible for the farrier, was herd bound, was petrified of diesel engines, hated dogs and, in general, was a 1600-pound Tasmanian devil (at times). She, too, is the alpha horse.
Underneath all the bad habits, however, I saw something in her eyes the day we met that made me think she'd be worth the effort.
The 1st thing I worked on was the lead line. I don't have access to a round pen so we just worked in the pasture (initially) and then went for walks down the road.
I started by purchasing a sturdy, draft halter that fits her properly (she broke 2 light halters before I figured out they just wouldn't work), a 12-foot lead line with an extra long chain, a pair of leather gloves and steel-toed boots. I also carried a crop and wore my helmet when we worked. (Please note: she was afraid of whips and crops and had to learn they aren't bad. I did this by offering her a treat held in the same hand as the crop. Took some time, but she eventually figured out she wasn't going to be beaten. Then I introduced her to having the heel of the crop touch her shoulders, hips, chest, etc.)
At the same time we were working on the crop, I just haltered her (chain over nose) and lead her around the pasture using voice commands to move her forward (walk) and to stop (whoa). She was praised for doing something correctly and got a little snap of the lead line when she didn't (i.e., diving for the grass or starting to move too quickly). It took MONTHS of work in the pasture before I felt she was behaving well enough for the road. I was also able to introduce the crop to our exercises while in the pasture.
In a nutshell, I used the butt end to put pressure on her shoulder when she started crowding me. I also held the crop out in front of her to act as a 'barrier' so she would learn how far forward she could come. When she pushed this barrier, I tapped her lightly on her chest to get her to back off.
Road work started SLOWLY because she was herd bound. Initially, we stayed within sight of the barn, turned around and went back. Once she was comfortable with this, I started by adding the distance of 1 telephone pole before turning around. When this was OK, we added another telephone pole, etc. etc. Eventually we were able to walk to a trail head that's about 1/2 mile from the farm and we continued our routine of adding a little more distance down the trail with each walk. Yes, we had setbacks and had to go back to the pasture to reinforce personal space and not tugging the lead line out of my hands. We just started over and eventually there were no setbacks.
She's now at the point where anyone can lead her. No more chain over her nose; no more dragging people around.
This is probably enough for the 1st installment. Let me know if you have any questions. Also feel free to tell me whether or not you want me to continue.
dyd
|
Member:
Yitto
|
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 10:51 am:
Hi Nance, I have been following this post and thought I would suggest a few things that have worked for me. I have worked quite a few rank horses that required more than the basic training that everyone does. Try to keep your mind uncluttered with training facts and look for the things that get a positive result, negative feedback only continues the horse’s bad behavior.
For your safety do not work this horse freely in the round pen, or even on a long line, it is clear at this point you can’t control the horse. Find a rope halter with a leather popper on the end of the lead rope. Start to re-halter break this horse, first lesson is to DrOp her head. Simple but all that is needed the first lesson. Next lesson ask her to move her feet round you as in lounging, all you want is the feet to move and her shoulder away from you. I think you get the idea. The rope halter will help in teaching her as it is a tool you can use to correct her. Don’t ever let her pull, small tugs from you will teach her to give. Some horses that have broken lead ropes by pulling will challenge this halter too. I will let them pull for second or two, I will release my pressure enough to flick my wrist and send a wave in the rope. This will flip the knot on the bottom of the halter to the bottom jaw and the horse will release his pull.
The next suggest is Clicker training, it is quick and easy to help the horse understand and want to work with you. Although you are using treats as a reward, after the horse has something down only a pat or scratch will work. My first lesson of clicker training is always to look away and not beg for treats, this keeps them from pestering you. There is a lot of info out there on this training. Within a few days the horse will be looking for answers to what you want with out having to force her to do it. Clicker training is very controversial but has been very successful to me and others that have used it. I taught my Palomino to line dance and bow, I don’t have to treat her any longer she likes the reaction that she gets from people watching it.
It sounds like you like the horse and see there is a good horse inside somewhere. This is all you need to get started, just be patient and find the ways to get her to give just a little. A little is a lot to a troubled horse, and you will soon find a best friend inside that 1900 lb. heart. Good Luck and always be safe!!
|
New Member:
Njsparks
|
Posted on Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 11:05 pm:
Thank you all for your very kind words and the wealth of advice. My neighbor has spent her life training horses (I didn't know this until today) and she suggested much of what all of you have. Together, my neighbor and I are going to start from ground zero... Ground work... etc... I will check back to this post often and if anyone, especially D. and her Clydesdale would like to continue sharing experiences. I would appreciate. I'll try to write daily and let you know our progress.
Nance...
|
Member:
Dyduroc
|
Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 7:07 am:
Nance, how wonderful that you have an experienced trainer next door! I'm very interested in following your progress, so please post periodic updates.
I didn't start working with an instructor/trainer until 9 months after I got my mare. We probably would have made more progress had we done so from the start but looking back, I see how valuable those early months were--we really got to know each other.
An incredible thing happened to me this past Friday that I'd like to share with you in the hope that you'll be encouraged.
I decided to give my girl a break from ring work and took her on a trail ride. When we got back, we went through our normal routine of cooling down followed by 10-15 minutes of hand grazing. As it was just after noon when I turned her out, I gave the horses their mid-day hay and went back to the barn to finish up. As I was getting ready to leave, I returned to the pasture to give her one more pat and to say goodbye. Normally I have to go into the pasture and walk to her when she's eating but she met me at the gate (leaving her hay) and stayed with me for over a half hour just drinking up all the pats and rubs. That was a 1st! Even the barn owner couldn't believe my eating machine abandoned her food in favor of some loving.
|
Member:
Hwood
|
Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 10:06 am:
D . . . I get goose bumps!!!!
When our horses choose us over their food and horsey friends, that is the icing on the cake!!!
|
Member:
Njsparks
|
Posted on Sunday, May 8, 2005 - 11:23 pm:
D.
That's incredible. I found myself smiling while reading your story. I'm very happy for you. I had a cool thing happen today. I have a young gelding - maybe nine months old and he as adopted patti as his mother. I went to walk up to him today and he kept running off. So I grabbed the long line and kept him running. I had the long line coiled up in my hand and stood in the middle of the large pen while keeping him at a walk (soft trot). After a few laps (Patti joined the gelding in the laps) Patti walked up to me and put her head into my palm. I gave her a hug and lots of scratches. The gelding followed her and let me love on him too... I had a wonderful day today with the two of them...
Nance
|
|
|
