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Discussion on Over at the Knees
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 12:08 pm:
I have a 4 year old gelding that has been in training for the past year. He has now become over at the knees (both knees). It is not bone growth but the actual knee looks like it should buckle when he stands. This has just developed during the past 6 or 7 month. Does anyone have a clue if this can be corrected or what might have caused it. He has poor leg and hoof conformation to start with and this makes him look really bad. It does not seem to hamper his movement, but I fear it could in time, if not corrected. Any help is appreciated.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 1:47 pm:
Hello Marti,
Though your horse is a little old for this you sound like you are having problems with flexor tendon contracture. Though most likely the carpal flexor, superficial digital or deep digital flexor could also do this along with other changes. For more on diagnosis and treatment see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » Tendon Laxity and Contracture.
DrO
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 14, 2007 - 8:36 am:
Thanks Dr. O. I read all of the articles and printed them out to reread. "Now for the rest of the story." I bought this gelding when he was 2 and he did have very straight high heels, but his knees were flat with no buckling. We got his feet looking pretty good with the exception of the right front foot with is in no way centered to his leg. When he was 3-1/2 I sent him to my trainer. During training he developed a splint on his right leg. This leg was pin fired for the splint last spring and he has developed a long bony wide ridge along the area. He is not lame at all though. His left leg shows a lump that appears to be a popped splint also, but no lameness. My poor gelding's front legs look like he has been through a war and with the knees buckling it makes me cry to look at them. I just do not know which way to turn or what to do. I have copied the information from the feed the trainer used and from the feed I use. I am not sure which is the best for me use on him and hope you can help me with this. From what I have read it sounds like he has a carpal flexor problem. If this is the case can any supplements help? I do use Cosequin, ground flax, hoof supplement, daily wormer and corn oil.(I will attach the feed information.) Thanks for any advise.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 9:39 am:
Since you have a serious problem you need to enlist the help of your veterinarian. Since there is a suggestion in your last post of some extensor involvement also, the vet needs to determine which structures are tight and then what procedures might give some release to the knee. As you lowered this horse's heels you tightened the deep digital flexor: could that explain the recent change?
At four years of age it is uncertain that a lower plane of nutrition is going to help much. If this is a recent change it gives hope. If you are feeding good quality concentrates and forage the supplements are not helping the flexor contracture and to the degree that they lend toward over nutrition may be harmful. "What to feed?" is not as important as "How much you feed". If your veterinarian determines this is a good course, pick a good quality well known high protein adult horse feed and stick with that in combination with a stemmy hat. The point is to get the horse down to about a condition 4 on the Henneke scale (see Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Estimating Weight, Height, and Body Condition) then wait to see if the muscle-tendon units catch up with the skeletal system.
DrO
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 12:28 pm:
Thank for your reply Dr. O. From what you are saying here, it seems that I need to go to more protein instead of less. Is that correct? I am right now using a 10% feed. Should I use 14% and an alfalfa hay maybe? I am intending to get with a local Vet. The horse was seen by a Equine Clinic specialist last week before I brought him home, but I have no idea what was said. For some reason this condition only seems to upset me. I do thank you for your input.
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 12:42 pm:
Dr. O,
I just read the estimated weight and condition information and the gelding is between a 4 & 5.
On the lower heel subject. It was his rear heels that were lowered and that was over a period of 2 years. The front heels are pretty high and the pasterns appear fairly straight. I have no angle or I could get the degree on them. I am going to take pictures this weekend. I will send them to you if you think it may help get an idea of the issue.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 16, 2007 - 7:53 am:
See the article on contracture that I reference above for detailed instructions on feeding but if your horse really is already a 4.5, which seems unlikely considering your feeding regimen, there should not be any further adjustments downward. Have you recently been trying to increase his condition and this is when he started to buckle more?
You should get any written notes from the previous exam. Be sure to include a overall picture of the horse Marti that demonstrates both the horses condition and the buckling forward of the knees.
DrO
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Member:
lynneh
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 18, 2007 - 8:14 pm:
Hi Marti
I hate to send negative info but my gelding did the same thing off and on from 5-7 years old. As he started doing it more consistently I noticed a lameness, At 7 he was diagnosed finally with Navicular SynDrOme and we started the long project of adaptive shoeing.
Originally I thought him keeping his knees 'open' at play was a behavioral thing since he was so sound otherwise. I never imagined he would show navicular problems.
Work close with your Vet and Farrier, and I wish you well. For us we worked it out finally with shoeing and tolerating a little discomfort at times. I hope you find your solution.
Good Luck
Lynne
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 10:34 am:
Lynne, what do you mean by keeping his knees open at play?
Thanks
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Member:
lynneh
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 12:26 pm:
Lori
My boy never completely straightens his knees. They are always slightly bent or 'open' He started showing this when he was relaxed or standing during turnout only, then while relaxed when standing anywhere and finally now all the time. Xray and exam has confirmed Navicular in his case. We've adjusted angles and shoes until we had what keeps him the most comfortable but the knees don't change. I am not convinced the feet caused the knees as the vet feels or whether a knee issue placed undue pressure on the foot. Kind of the 'chicken and the egg'. I do know the knees started before he showed any lameness.
Lynne
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 2:05 pm:
Gosh guys. I do not know what to think about all of this. I am hoping I am making too much of an issue of this. I have taken the pictures which show the general condition of the horse, the area of pin firing, the knees from both sides and his crooked legs. From these pictures you can see why I want to cry.
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 2:19 pm:
I will post these photo's one at a time. I can not seem to ge them small enough.
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 2:20 pm:
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 2:22 pm:
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 5:47 pm:
He looks like my horse was, actually mine was worse. His knees used to shake and were a little more bent..
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 20, 2007 - 5:56 am:
Hi Katrina,
What was the outcome on your horse?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 20, 2007 - 7:17 am:
I put his condition at between a 5 and 6 Marti. This degree of flexural deformity is mild Marti with the left worse than the right in the images above. Many horses that look like your horse above are quite functional so I would avoid any huge changes but I would still pursue possible improvements if it is deemed a distal check desmotomy might give some relief. It is not clear from the images that it will but a exam might help answer the question.
DrO
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Member:
marti
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 20, 2007 - 8:42 am:
Thank you Dr. O. I feel better just reading the word mild. So far it has not bothered his movement. I will for sure have my Vet examine him and provide the information you have given me.
I will keep you posted on any leg changes. I will not plan any big moves on this. This gelding is sired by Lopin Slow and they are very slow developers. It is possible that the tendons just haven't caught up with the bones? He is 4 1/2 now. I am maybe being a bit too hopeful. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 21, 2007 - 10:24 am:
See my second post above on nutritional adjustments Marti, it answers your question and gives recommendations while remembering you horse is closer to a 6 than a 4.5.
DrO
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