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Discussion on Breed vs Registry
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 9:30 am:
While reading the thread on Trakehners, it occurred to me that it doesn't seem like we're talking about a breed in the pure sense, but rather a registry. By registry I mean an organization that selectively breeds horses to promote certain traits and accepts the offspring of horses of different "breeds". Seems like all warmbloods organizations are registries.
It got me thinking about which of what we refer to as breeds are in fact pure-bred. The only pure "breeds" I could think of off the top of my head are Appys, Arabians, Freisans, modern Thoroughbreds and maybe PRE.
The concept of an appendix Quarter Horse moving to the regular registry makes them not "pure" in my mind, same for any "breed" with an open stud/mare book. Maybe once the stud book is closed, something could be considered a breed after some number of generations which I think is the case for t-breds.
Wondering what you all think.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 10:55 pm:
I do know what you mean Chris. I think we could add Welsh, Shetland, Fjord, and several other pony breeds as well as the draft breeds.
I think it is a great idea to have registries tho.
I have a fabulous mare that is out of reg parents; she is doing well is 1 level dressage, has potential to go some higher, she has the best personality, decent mover, easy and willing to train, good conformation, threw a fabulous colt out of areally good warmblood stallion that I can't reg anywhere because the Mom isn't registered.
It will be a shame to lose her genetics because she can't be reg.
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Member:
jmarie
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 9:44 am:
Interesting thread! What do you think about the current issue of over-breeding to meet breed/registry standards? I've seen quite a bit of controversy in the equine news over this topic, particularly surrounding the ApHC, APHA, and the AQHA, all of which have reputedly tightened their rules for registration. For instance, uncolored Paints can no longer compete in breed shows against colored Paints. Are you concerned that the drive to produce horses that qualify for registration may also produce increasing numbers of "throw-away" foals that for one reason or another don't make the grade?
I'm just interested in your take on the situation.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 11:47 am:
Good point Joanne. Obviously, when the gene pool is too small, you're in trouble if you don't open it up.
While I've heard the mantra, "Paint is a breed, Pinto is a color" many times, I've equally heard Paint horses called Quarter Horses with color. At least with Appys there's a real genetic difference.
Selective breeding is just that; selective. I have no interest in breeding, but clearly in such a process there are going to be the "throw-away" foals you mention. What I think stinks is when the selection criteria are based on color/appearance as opposed to functionality; especially with the Quarter Horse excessive white rules.
I don't think that the desire to have breed standards is the problem, but rather that too many people want to be breeders. I have no idea of what the real numbers are but suspect that the professional breeders have fewer culls than the hobby breeders. By professional, I don't mean large scale operations but rather those that study bloodlines and approach it as a long term venture.
Lori, I noticed that you're in Canada. You may want to check out the American Warmblood Registry. www.americanwarmblood.com
I knew someone who had her quarter horse gelding inspected; he was accepted and branded. Why she did this is beyond me since she didn't show and obviously wasn't going to breed him but it seemed to make her happy.
I'm curious. Why isn't your mare eligible for registration wherever her parents were registered?
Chris
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 4:29 pm:
Lori,
Also check out the American Warmblood Society. They have a Canadian edition too. Horses are inspected for approval.
www.americanwarmblood.org/
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 10:05 pm:
Chris,
I don't know how far back you want to go to call it a breed versus a species. Is it the DNA tracing to a particular foundation stud, is it the number of years that line has existed? These were decisions made by people long before DNA tracing was available. Therefore it is possible that even the 'pure breeds' are not that pure after all. Where does that put the Mustang, or the South American Horses, or the European horses. In fact, horses originated in the north America's were 'exported' and then rendered extinct in the North Americas. So...how pure then are the european lines?
I am the impression that the Rocky Mountain Horse is a breed that is eligible for other registries as well.
This could get very academic and theoretical (and I know how particular about words and their origins ) Humans, after all, have many different 'breeds' that are defined by physical appearance and DNA tracing, however we all are traced to specific origins in Africa....does that make us all 'Africans'.
In the dog world breeds are very academic and theoretical as well, ultimately decided by physical characteristics and then those are classified as a breed. I guess the only true breed would be the wolf from which even foxes are derived! How many generations of genetic material is needed for it to be a breed?
These are all interesting questions that are up for debate, and panels seem to make the "final" conclusion...sounds like opinions to me.
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Member:
jmarie
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 7:48 am:
Chris, I've heard the "Paints are Quarter Horses with color" thing too. But Paints can also be TBxTB, TBxPaint, TBxQH, QHxQH, QHxPaint, PaintxPaint and still qualify. And Appys are now so interbred with QH's it's hard to separate them.
I'd really like to see more talent registries (eg: NBHA, NRHA, etc), but that's clearly just my opinion. I don't know for sure that that would eliminate the throwaway foals.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 8:56 am:
Hmm, hadn't heard that TBxTB could be registered as Paints. Other than that, it seems like the same deal as AQHA, something in the book crossed with something else in the book or a TB. That's if you buy into the Paints being Quarter Horses with color.
It seems to me that selective breeding can ultimately produce a breed, as could genetic mutation which is just selective breeding with a jump start. It "just" takes time, if it's normal selective breeding I think it takes a long time. If it's mutation, it could happen faster, but it ain't going to be overnight.
Using a dog world analogy; I simply don't believe that crossing a Poodle with some other breed creates a "new" breed.
I think one characteristic of a breed is that the offspring of any 2 individuals is highly likely to have the breed characteristics, whatever they may be.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 10:19 am:
My Tennessee Walker is dual registered, he is registered as a Paint ( a registry that acknowledges color, not breed, from what I understand) and registered as a Tennessee Walker.
My Rocky Mountain is registered as a Rocky Mountain Horse (closed breed registration with DNA tracing) and too as a Kentucky Mountain Horse (more inclusive registry)
My Mangalarga Marchador is registered in a closed breed registry that is supervised with DNA submission and Brazilian Panel approval that includes conformation, disposition and gait (the Brazilians actually come to the US for this). This is done for The Fresians, as well, I believe, as for the Andalusians
Regarding dogs:
the Cockapoo ( A cross between a Poodle and a Cocker Spaniel) is now considered a separate breed after a few generations of developing this cross. They now breed Cockapoo with Cockapoo. The oldest dog breed is the Saluki. All dog breeds are mutation of the wolf and its inbreeding...a facinating study of this was done which PBS showed in a documentary that was spell-binding regarding this exact "what makes a breed" issue. The AKC registery is fundamently focused on conformation which is why working, protection and sport dogs of any qaulity come from Europe as they are bred there for disposition and drive, which is DNA determined, not for appearance. K9 dogs in the military and Law Enforcement are supplied with european dogs or breeding lines. The best come from France and the Check Republic. Something I know about as Its what I do and my breeding stock are French.
My concern regarding horses is that the same thing will start to happen as Americans are largely influenced by how animals look, rather than how they perform, and their accompanying disposition. Give me DNA capabitlity and disposition any day. Of course I am aware that equine conformation is a highly significant factor in its athletic potential, however we do have the "Seabisquites" of the world that suggest other DNA facors to be significant, and I believe, at times overlooked.
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Member:
jjet
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 1:49 pm:
Well put, Ilona. That is my thinking on the subject, as well. Of course, conformation can be important, but it is certainly not the only requisite, as exceptions 'to the rule' are always to be found...
A few yeas ago, I had a friend who was developing a new breed of rabbit, not that hard to do with their rapid reproduction rates. We lost track when they moved, so I'm not sure whether she completed that project. I will have to try to find out (I am not a rabbit breeder, myself).
Sidenote: the excessive white rules for quarter horses have been hugely relaxed. Offhand, I can't remember whether they're gone completely.
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 5:45 pm:
What is the difference between a piebald and a paint. I had a piebald as a kid and never really got the difference?
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 7:21 pm:
The last time I checked, the excessive white rules were relaxed for geldings and spayed mares only and not breeding stock. I'm out of the AQHA circle these days, but still a lifetime member so I'll double check the rulebook later.
Ilona, when you say your horse is registered as a Paint, do you actually have APHA papers on this horse? I suspect your horse is registered with a color registry and NOT the American Paint Horse Association. I don't think that the American Kennel Club recognizes Cockapoos, so I wouldn't call it a breed just yet 
Also, I can't resist, as a basenji owner, challenging the notion that salukis are the oldest breed. You say that all dogs are descended from wolves; I would say that all canines, including wolves, have a common ancestor. Kind of like Darwin's assertion that man and ape have a common ancestor which is often misstated as man evolved from apes. Anyway, basenjis are a naturally occurring breed that comes from Africa. My understanding is that there are no wolves in Africa.
Katrina: I've wondered the same about piebald, pinto, and "Paint". As far as I can tell Paints are registered with the APHA, the others are horses with a particular color coat pattern of any breed. So, a Paint is a Pinto/Piebald, but not every Pinto/Piebald is a Paint.
The only real color confusion I've had is explaining that a quarter horse I had was "brown" and not "bay" and that the black points didn't make him bay according to AQHA.
Cheers,
Chris
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 8:17 pm:
Yes, I do have APHA papers on my Tennessee Walker.
Wolves are very ancient, and in fact precede when Africa and Europe were joined as a land mass. Its a similar situation to where horses originated in the North Americas. They travelled to Europe because of earths land mass configuration all those aeons ago.
Chris, I do appreciate your distinction between 'common ancestor'and 'evolved from', particularly as I have a cast of "Mrs. Ples" sitting in my living-room. Appropriate, as she and I originate from the same geographic area in South Africa. Of course, Chris, you may argue that I have more in common with her than I wish to admit  !
Katrina,
Piebald = Brown and White color
Skewbald= Black and White color
As a fellow colonial, I learned this as the 'English' definitions versus the American definition which is are designated as a Black or Brown Paint.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 8:19 pm:
Yes, I do have APHA papers on my Tennessee Walker.
Wolves are very ancient, and in fact precede when Africa and Europe were joined as a land mass. Its a similar situation to where horses originated in the North Americas. They travelled to Europe because of earths land mass configuration all those aeons ago.
Chris, I do appreciate your distinction between 'common ancestor'and 'evolved from', particularly as I have a cast of "Mrs. Ples" sitting in my living-room. Appropriate, as she and I originate from the same geographic area in South Africa. Of course, Chris, you may argue that I have more in common with her than I wish to admit !
Katrina,
Piebald = Brown and White color
Skewbald= Black and White color
As a fellow colonial, I learned this as the 'English' definitions versus the American definition which is designated as a Black or Brown Paint.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 9:19 pm:
Don't know how come it ended up double-posting...my apologies.
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Member:
jmarie
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 8:55 am:
Chris, you're right. The rules about "high white" has been relaxed at AQHA. You're also right about Paints being a "breed", registered with the APHA, while pinto and piebald/skewbald are considered coat color variations. So, again, you're right that every Paint is piebald/skewbald/pinto, but not every piebald/skewbald/pinto is Paint.
The brown vs. bay vs. seal brown thing always had me confused. I just call all of them "dark" and leave it at that.  I'm a member of four breed associations, and the rules and color pickiness can drive you to drink if you pay too much attention. I suppose if I were a breeder . . . but then, I bought a mini stud with the intention of becoming just that. He's black. His skin is black. His hair coat, mane and tail are jet black. He has no markings whatsoever. But he came from a mini App breeder and his papers list him as "blue roan". Doesn't matter as he's since become a gelding so I won't need to explain it to anyone. 
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 9:02 am:
From the APHA website: www.apha.com
"The American Paint Horse's combination of color and conformation has made the American Paint Horse Association (APHA) the second-largest breed registry in the United States based on the number of horses registered annually. While the colorful coat pattern is essential to the identity of the breed, American Paint Horses have strict bloodline requirements and a distinctive stock-horse body type. To be eligible for registry, a Paint's sire and dam must be registered with the American Paint Horse Association, the American Quarter Horse Association, or the Jockey Club (Thoroughbreds). At least one parent must be a registered American Paint Horse. To be eligible for the Regular Registry, the horse must also exhibit a minimum amount of white hair over unpigmented (pink) skin.
Each Paint Horse has a particular combination of white and any color of the equine spectrum: black, bay, brown, chestnut, dun, grullo, sorrel, palomino, buckskin, gray or roan.
Markings can be any shape or size, and located virtually anywhere on the Paint's body.
Although Paints come in a variety of colors with different markings, there are only three specific coat patterns: overo, tobiano and tovero.
These colors, markings and patterns, combined with stock-type conformation, athletic ability and agreeable disposition, make the American Paint Horse an investment in quality."
Ilona: I don't understand how a TWH would be eligle for registration in the APHA. How did this come to be? Could it be we are talking about two different registries?
Chris
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 12:23 pm:
Ilona, My pony was black and white she was called a piebald in Australia. Other colours and white are skewbald, maybe australia id different. Would not supprise me. Ausies have to be different.
Chris now I get it. Because they never had paints in Australia I never understood why they were called paints and not piebald etc. I now understand.
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Member:
jjet
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 3:11 pm:
I finally got a chance to take a look at the rulebook...
Regarding the white rule, from the AQHA Handbook of Rules and Regs: "White Markings: A horse having white markings with underlying light skin beyond any one of the following described lines shall be eligible for registration by AQHA only if it is parentage verified through DNA typing the offspring, its sire and its dam. Breeders should be aware that the American Quarter Horse, while long recognized, identified and promoted as a solid-colored horse, can and does occasionally produce offspring with overo paint characteristics.
Such markings are uncharacteristic of the breed and are considered to be undesirable traits. The following notification shall be placed on registration certificates of horses exceeding these marking limitations:
“This horse has white markings designated under AQHA rules as an undesirable trait and uncharacteristic of the breed.”"
Following that statement is specifics of what is undesireable, the "described lines". So all that is really required now is parentage verification through the DNA samples, which only makes sense. After all, if you look at AQHA's earliest registered horses, they did not have to verify parentage, many of them are shown on the record as unknown. Besides Thoroughbred, many of them may have come from paint type or even appaloosa stock; probably some mustang, pony, or arab as well.
They were simply looking for quality horses that fit the description and capabilities desirable for building the breed. They may have been thinking that too much white leads to white hoof, at that time considered to be less hardy over rough ground.
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Member:
jjet
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 3:13 pm:
Thats's why you see so many double registered AQHA and Paint nowadays.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 4:02 pm:
Since my mare is an AngloArab X, (the sire is a reg 50%Arab 50% TB) she isn't accepted into the Arab part registry, they won't take anything with less than 50% Arab; (the dam is a lovely reg Percheron) there is no partbred Percheron reg.
So my mare has no papers. I did hear of a Norman registry but they don't want her because of the TB blood.
It may be possible to get her accepted into the sporthorse assn. Not sure at how good at hoops I will be....
Excuse me Ilona, I believe Piebald is the black and white, I always associate it with the magpie which is also black and white. It is an old English word. (See online English Entymology)
Skewbald is bay and white or red and white.
Yes, the confusion between bay and seal. Chris, now I am confused, do you have a picture of your 'brown' with black points horse, I would love to see what AQHA calls brown.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 9:09 pm:
You are right, Piebald is black and white...I have always got those 2 mixed up...ever since I was a child...I flip my numbers as well...I will write down the telephone number given me, all the correct numbers in a completely new order...a dyslexic thing I do. A definite handicap for balancing a check-book and relaying info re a multi-colored horse !
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 8:45 am:
Lori,
My scanner died a couple of years ago and I haven't bothered to replace it so can't scan in the pictures I have of that horse.
Here's what AQHA says https://www.aqha.com/association/download/pdf/GeneticsBook.pdf#Page=5
My boy looked pretty much like the picture of the brown horse at the beginning of the article. the way it was described to me is that the brown horse does not have any red in his coat, and a bay horse does. If I stood my guy next to a chestnut or a bay, it was pretty obvious.
Chris
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