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Discussion on A question for members breeding Andalusians
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 3:59 pm:
In discussing my desire for an Andalusian (some day, I hope!) with a new member of the barn, she asked me what the difference is between an Andalusian and a PRE. I know they are one and the same, but are the names interchangeable? My impression is that an Andalusian is one of the breed that could be born anywhere, and then of course eventually registered. But a PRE must be an Andalusian born in Spain? Is that correct? Elizabeth, Judy, please set me straight.
Also, another question: why do I so often see pictures of these lovely horses with roached manes? My guess is to show off the line of the neck?
Thanks for any help setting me straight!
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 5:28 pm:
I think they roach only the fillies and mares. It is intriguing and lovely. I think it some rule.
But Judy or Elizabeth will know for sure.
Leslie
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 7:52 pm:
Hi Fran,
In Spain, they shave the foals' manes and docks once, and then continue to roach the fillies' manes forever, encouraging the boys' manes and tails to grow long. The fillies also have their tails shaved (sometimes with a tiny tuft left at the end), and the mares have the top 10cm of the dock shaved, and the rest banged at about the hocks. I see from recent SICAB photos that the mares are getting slightly longer tails. Why all this shaving? I've been told that it was to keep them from getting tangled in the thorny marshes, and to show off their conformation, but I don't really know.
The distinction between Andalusian and PRE is partly political. We now, sadly, have 3 different registries active in the USA alone. Spain believes that it "owns" the registry of PRE, and all others are... something else. The US Mundial also claims the PRE label, but does not exclude Spanish-registered horses. Andalusian is a broader term, since it can include horses in the pedigree that have not been inspected by the Spanish studbook (or, depending on which camp you listen to, the US Mundial registry). PRE should mean that every horse in the pedigree was inspected and approved for breeding, and all the various protocols were followed, whatever they were.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 8:13 pm:
So just to clarify-- a horse can be an Andalusian, but not registerable as PRE with either registry that uses that label (if it doesn't satisfy the breed standard sufficiently to pass an inspection or "revision."). A horse registered as PRE by the Mundial registry is not considered PRE in Spain, and its offspring are also disqualified. The US registry does accept the Spanish approval.
The third registry, IALHA, does not inspect breeding stock, and uses the label "Andalusian."
Muddy enough?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 8:21 pm:
Elizabeth
Do the spanish send inspectors over here to inspect the breeding stock? Or since you live in US do you have to use the Mundial?
Lelsie
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 - 8:31 pm:
Hi Leslie,
The Spanish (currently ANCCE, formerly the Cria Caballar, and in the future, who knows) do send teams to the US to inspect horses. That being said, the schedules and locations can be challenging, especially since Spain is not entirely in tune with the size of this country, and the impact of changing seasons (aka winter) on our ability to transport horses long distances.
I have tried to stay with Spain, but after paying twice and sending 3 different sets of paperwork to 3 different entities on a single filly and never receiving her registration ("carta"), I'm close to giving up on them and switching to Mundial.
The split in the PRE registries is a very sad thing for those who value the breed, and especially for those of us who are pedigree junkies and like to research many generations of a breeding. It's a plain nightmare for a customer who asks a simple question about his/her potential purchase!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 7:38 am:
Elizabeth, thanks so much for the explanation...I think what I can take from this is that before I ever think of purchasing one of these beauties, I need to make sure I have expert, experienced advice!
Another question, if you don't mind: As I scan ads, I've noticed more & more that they are breeding Andalusians for color. Is this a correct impression? And if so, where is the color coming from? Are they breeding to other breeds to get the color, so that the resulting offspring is no longer "pure", or just paying more attention to color genetics within the breed and carefully selecting the correct genetics to produce babies that won't eventually go gray? (Sorry, that's more than 1 more question!  )
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 7:44 am:
Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, I have no intention of breeding. Rookies have no business breeding and I consider myself a rookie. There's something about Andalusians (I think the noble, convex nose has something to do with it) that appeals to me. Would love to own one someday to become my partner in dressage and until then, would like to learn more.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 9:54 am:
Hi Fran,
Well, if you're looking for something with good breed type or specifically PRE movement/conformation etc. then it's a good idea to get help from someone with more mileage and experience. But that's true with any breed, and a good horse is a good horse.
Yes, there are more people breeding for color. The predominant color in the breed is gray, and for a very long time gray, bay, black and (the very very rare) chestnut were the only colors that could be registered in Spain. The largest pool of high quality horses by definition is gray, and the Olympic horses in the breed have all been gray or bay. A focus on color obviously gives a smaller pool, and results in breeding stock that, if they were gray, might not have been considered the best (either from a performance or a pedigree perspective). It depends on your level of ambition and what you want looking back at you over the fence. Probably that's an offensive statement to color breeders, though I don't know why. I breed for performance and it means that I accept some qualities (including one fairly hot mare) that might not work in a different program.
The unusual colors are either coming from an injection of non-registered blood (sometimes the Lusitanos, which were synonymous with PRE until fairly recently, but do have their own characteristics now, and are often hotter), or from breeding stock with recessive color traits. Dominant gray isn't homozygous gray, so there has always been some color around, more in some lines than others.
Breeders are increasingly market-focused, so there are also programs that focus on "conformation" (what we would call halter horses), and dressage (taller, often more uphill, which is not traditional). There are also lots of breeders who can't read a pedigree or a horse well enough to have a true focus, no matter what they advertise. But that's true with any breed, especially one with such a pleasant character (which makes it possible for inexperienced people to keep stallions in their yards).
Very few breeders are focused on bullfighting, which makes sense, though when you watch one of these horses work a bull, it's quite amazing.
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 10:04 am:
This is the loveliest breed. I own one and have had 2 foals from him. He was originally from Spain and made his way to Tina Vieters in New York his name is Neron and I trust him totally. You can ride him right out of the field and no lunging just a lovely fellow he is grand prix level I had the worst time when I got him in the dressage community they just didn't get it.
Now they do after the last two Olympics were the Andalusians made wonderful scores and even a individual silver
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 10:11 am:
Come on Kim-- you can't introduce him without photos! I want to see your boy.
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 10:54 am:
I am so proud to show you a photo of Neron. His Full name is Uncle Neron because he is part of the family.
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 11:01 am:
Here is one more of Neron
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 11:06 am:
KIM! Hes gorgeous! Love those smart looking ears!
VEry nice bottom pic as well!
Cheers
Leslie
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 11:14 am:
This is Nerons beautiful face thanks so much for the compliment.
I am extremely fortunate to have him, it was a long time coming but Tina Vieter said when the time is right the horse finds you.
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Member:
hollyw
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 12:19 pm:
He's fabulous. Just fabulous. Aww, gee.
I love the noble Spanish horses.
The closest I will probably ever have to having a Barb-type, was this horse, Kilowatt, a Criollo, who died from an accident toward the end of my year in Colorado. He was a native dun with all the striping, shading, frosting, and tiny buff tips on his ears. His face was so noble. His girth was tremendous, but he wasn't very tall; only 15.1 h . . . but a LOT of horse . . . with a big brand on his right arm . . . and terrified of people on the ground . . . but a joy (for me) to ride on trail. He could round and float at an extended trot and had awesome power (as three farriers found out from being kicked; actually, he was a fear-kicker and even kicked me twice as I was brushing him and standing at his shoulder; an extremely sensitive-skinned horse; even the static electricity from brushes would get a strong and sometimes violent response from him.)
I bet, in the present economy, among even the well-bred horses, there will be many available at a good price.
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 12:39 pm:
What an incredible photo.
He has the most wonderful expression, you can really see the barb.
He must have trusted you very much to let you work with him.
Was he from Argentina or do you know his back ground when the Argentines get there hands on horses they can put the fear of the lord in them.
I have many Argentine horses and they are all... everyone as you describe your horse but when I speak to other trainers and I tried to pin this on the blood, they always say non no its the way they were broke.
I really don't think the Spanish breeds are going to go down in price,,but the poorer quality ones will be cheap as they are now.
There are so many different types ,the good ones and the bad, some poor breeders and some very good breeders.
Now you see welsh pony looking Andalusian and Arab looking Andalusian and 17.2 hh Andalusia's.
but the old style are my favorite.
Again I loved the photo , it makes you proud to be a part of horses when they are so noble.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 12:39 pm:
Very handsome Kim! You guys are a lovely pair.
Holly is right that many of us are placing horses for much lower prices right now. It's partly the market, and also that the best horse homes may not have the upfront cash. Plenty of breeders care very much that the horses land happily in homes where they are likely to stick. I know that I've made some deals, as have other breeders, because they were best for the horses and worked for the humans.
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 12:43 pm:
Elk I agree one hundred percent I have seen this happen also.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 12:50 pm:
Wow Holly
Hes is gorgeous too!
As Fran stated earlier---Just love those convex noses.
My favorite breed in Art.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 12:59 pm:
Kim, Neron is lovely.
I agree, Elizabeth...a good horse is a good horse and I happily own a wonderful Holsteiner who fell into my lap 5 years ago. She's been a great partner for me and has taught me a ton.
I would never buy a horse based only on color (if I did, I wouldn't own my mare, who is a gray). Oddly enough, gray's aren't my favorite so somewhere, the god's of irony are laughing at my fixation on Andalusians. Perhaps by the time I ever have one, I'll get over my neurotic desire to keep a white horse spotless, even in the midst of 18 inch deep pasture muck.
Anyhow, I do appreciate the answers to my questions. As my mare is healthy and sound (knock on wood), I won't be shopping any time soon. The topic happened to come up at the barn and my curiosity got the best of me.
Many thanks!
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 1:06 pm:
Fran
In your quest for keeping a white horse clean is that why you named her "Sparkles"? 
She is a beauty on that profile picture
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 1:15 pm:
Hey fran.
I also agree with you surprise.
I have some different breeds all very nice and well and good but when it comes down to it.
Its the horse that connects with you and will do anything for you.
For instance I love Neron and have played Stick and Ball ..polo, on him to prove the Andalusian can do it.
But the pickup and giddy up when needed is asking too much and its not fare even though he will do it. So my breeds of choices are Quarter horses paints and thoroughbreds but basically its the horse that can do it and be happy.
Fran I repeat your words and Tina's Vieters words one of the great horse trainers, as to your horse falling into your lap.. when the time right is the horse finds you just like your horse did.
Thanks for the great thread.
Kim
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Member:
littleon
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 2:05 pm:
Elk and Leslie
I checked out your websites. Leslie your life looks like mine you love animals and kids.
Elk
Very nice big grey Wow Centella VI what a horse.
I gelded my stallion exactly for the reasons you give,, he was 10 years when we did it.
I am still waiting for him to be settled enough to show at his level he would be so distracted that he could do a perfect passage but with full erection I was not going to try drugs as suggested,, well I did once, and his life was not there in his transitions he just did it put no presence but if you can believe we walked a mare past with the drug and he still wanted her.
It was such a sad day to do this gelding but he now lives with the other geldings and can even lean over the fence to touch the mares that still come to check him out.
I really like your horses.
Do you know Cheryl from burlington Ontario ?
She had Lusaro her horse died it was very sad he was her best friend the reason I ask if you know here is she very involved with helping people get Andalusians and she played a big role in my life with my Boy.
Kim
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 3:01 pm:
Hi Kim,
I don't know Cheryl-- she sounds very committed. My boy never displayed breeding behavior except in the shed, but he (and his father before him) was one of those stallions who felt a heavy obligation to take care of his herd at all times. I think we forget that stallions spend much more time caretaking than breeding, even in the wild, and much of their stress can come from their sense of obligation to keep every other horse safe at all times.
Mine has settled very well-- we'll see what the spring shows me. Just now he's laid out flat in the sun-- his ear tracked me as I crossed the yard. From age 2 until castration, I never saw him lie down. Now he's making up for it. I hope yours relaxes as well.
In Spain, the stallions are not required to compete (or warm-up, or live) next to mares. So the Spanish assumption that a stallion can be kept and shown as easily as a gelding makes little sense in the USA, where we board and train and compete our horses in "co-ed" settings. Some handle it well, but others are miserable. I geld my male babies for this reason, and to give them a better shot at a life with friends and pasture and lots of love.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2009 - 4:05 pm:
LOL, Leslie! Sparkles came to me along with her name. I thought long and hard about changing it. Most people seem to picture a cute little pony when I tell them the horse's name is Sparkles. When I moved her to her current boarding situation, she stepped off the trailer and the BO said, "I didn't think she'd be so BIG!" And really, she isn't big...not as far as warmbloods go, anyway (16HH). It was that Sparkles / pony image that mislead the BO.
Aside from that, the name does not fit her personality, either. She's a bit reserved (we jokingly call her "the Queen") and it takes a while to earn her trust and affection. However, her registered name is awful and a friend told me years ago that it's bad luck to change a horse's name (first horse was named Super Dupes, of all things)...so Sparkles has remained Sparkles....clean or otherwise
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