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Discussion on Types of movement
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 14, 2009 - 12:07 pm:
I have long wondered about what is considered good movement in horses.
Of course, the answer will also depend on what discipline you are involved in.
I recently came across an article that described some differences between American and European TB's. American TB's being developed with a lower neck set and less action resulting in a long efficient stride.
Percherons have high action.
What I would like to discuss, ahem-read comments on because I don't have the knowledge but others on this board do, is how certain action lends itself to certain disciplines, and the challenges of certain movement.
As an example I have read that certain breeds don't always score well in lower levels of dressage because in the lower levels there is more emphasis on extension. However, in the higher levels they will surpass the horses that had previously scored higher because they can collect and execute the more difficult movements.
I have come across terms like 'daisy cutter', 'good hock action', but no one has been able to explain what good hock action is.
I can guess that a daisy cutter is a low action movement with the toes nearly skimming the grass.
No controversy here just learning.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 11:24 am:
Hi Lori,
This should be a fun topic. There are probably some basics that most people will agree on. For example, in the English disciplines (I'm ignorant on Western competition), the walk should be 4-beat, the trot cleanly diagonal, and the canter 3-beat with good cadence. There is some argument about how to interpret "overstride," where the hind feet step into or in front of the front hoofprints, but there's no doubt that dressage judges look for it and factor it into scores throughout the test, as well as the collective mark for gaits.
Ann Gribbons has a nice article on choosing dressage horses, where she argues against the "wow" trot, pointing out the greater value of a good walk and a balanced, adjustable canter that is carried from behind in the first 2 beats. Here it is:
https://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/dressage_horse_012 908/
That may be a version of the "certain breeds" discussion that you describe, though I can't tell. There is also always a lot of heat around whether English competition judging is biased towards the strengths of certain common breeds (not something I personally could argue, but a very common discussion).
Again for English competition, the natural balance of the horse matters a lot in suitability for a sport. For some horses it is much easier to push/carry weight from behind than others, which makes the work a great deal easier for them, all other things being equal.
I think we know better how to breed for conformation and movement than the harder-to-define and harder-to-produce heart/try that can overcome all sorts of disadvantages in gaits and conformation and even soundness. But now I'm way off topic!
Very curious to hear others' thoughts.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 11:53 am:
Hi Lori
My Appendix mare, Pumpkin, is a daisy cutter. Very effcient...what they want in HUS movement. I read somewhere (dont know if it was correct)that originally they wanted that flat knee movement because in the olden days you had to ride 10 miles to get to hunt meet and you wanted your horse to arrive as fresh as possible for the hunt.
I think dressage is great for all horse/riders (obviously) but I dont think it would be fair to expect her to excel at it. But she naturally has the moves and looks of a HUS horse.
Too bad shes so evil
Personally, I love watching the Baroque breeds in dressage. Invasor.Yummy. I love the collection! which leads to my favorite thing to watch (hehehe! not do!)--Airs above ground.
Yes-I prefer classical method.
Leslie
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 2:08 pm:
elk, what a coincidence, in Western disciplines, the walk is 4 beat, the jog is clearly diagonal and the lope is distinctly 3 beats. The difference is more in the frame of the horse.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 2:11 pm:
Hi Chris,
Not implying they weren't, just trying to restrict my comments to the disciplines I know something about. No pot-stirring intended.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 4:15 pm:
elk,
No harm no foul; I didn't mean to imply that any pot-stirring was going on.
Regards,
Chris
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 15, 2009 - 4:52 pm:
Let me contribute in a more positive fashion.
I think that "good movement" is defined by several factors.
Purity of the three basic gaits: walk (4 even beats, not lateral), trot (2 beats with a clear pairing of diagonal legs), and canter (3 beats with a moment of suspension). Susan Harris authored a fantastic book on this subject; Horse Gaits, Balance and Movement. I highly recommend it. The purity of the gaits is what, IMO, helps keep a horse sound. In general, most folks seem to think that while the trot/jog can be improved, the walk and the canter/lope are pretty much defined by the horse's natural abilities. One big time WP trainer I know regularly refers to the lope as the "money gait".
I think that everything else comes down to the intended purpose of the horse. For a riding horse, "good movement" results in something that is comfortable for the rider. If anyone's ever been on a horse with a 4 beat canter, you know that it's less comfortable than a true canter. In Leslie's example, the horse with less knee movement is actually moving more from the shoulder and that produces a smoother ride. Now consider a draft horse; if the intended purpose is to push against a harness to pull a heavy load, he needs to move in a way that make him more efficient at that job. Think of your self running free and then think of yourself pushing a lawn mower. I read in a book (Rooney's The Lame Horse, I think) that most draft breeds tend to be sickle hocked as that conformation seems to be effective at low speed pushing.
I think that articulation of the hocks is really going to be determined by the purpose of the horse as well. A Western Pleasure horse at the jog is not going to step up under himself to the same extent that a dressage horse will in a medium trot, but both should be articulating their hocks and not dragging their back feet. At the lope a Western horse should be stepping far up under himself in nearly the same manner as a dressage horse; however, he is not going to be as uphill simply because the conformation of these two types is usually quite different. I would say that "good hock action" is free articulation of that joint.
Regarding the Baroque breeds being more successful in dressage levels requiring more collection, that's probably true. Let's think about what the Baroque breeds were bred to do. The PREs that were bred for the bull fighting ring needed to be nimble and able to maneuver in a tight area. The same is true for the Lippizans who were basically war horses. Airs above the ground is a battle movement designed to protect the mounted rider from the ground troops. Tennessee Walkers and Saddlebreds and other gaited horses were bred to be comfortable for long distances; consequently their movement is good for that.
Absolute efficiency is related to the amount of "work" done for the "effort" expended. Secretariat is the best example I know of for efficiency. Slow motion studies of his gallop (which is a 4 beat gait by the way) show that he had very little suspension which resulted in a minimum of air time and a maximum of thrust in each step; it's almost as if one foot was always on the ground pushing.
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 7:24 am:
I am going to stir the pot a bit.. (grin) What about diagonally advanced pace (DAP)? This is something you look for in a dressage horse trot - you actually want to see the hind leg touch the ground a milli-second before the paired opposite front. (this is supposed to indicate natural elevation of the forehand)
Stepping away from my very big spoon (bigger grin)...I think another point is that you want to see symmetry, particularly in the walk and trot. Front legs move the same amount, hind legs move the same amount, and, to Anne Gribbons comment about trots - you also want to see the same movement in front and in back (so that dressage horse with the huge movement in front and nothing behind? Watch its canter - odds are it will be downhill at best, have no expression and likely even 4 beat!)
Oh I can't resist being controversial!!! When you evaluate a horse's movement, what gait do you look at? Me? Walk is #1, then canter and then the trot. That being said, I know some very successful horse dealers that look at the trot only.
I LISTEN a lot to the gaits as well - I want to hear clear, even, "lively" hoofbeats and I also want to hear a horse that is light on its feet.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 8:34 am:
Cheryl,
From Dressage America's Glossary of Judging Dressage Terms:
Dissociation, Diagonal Dissociation (Also diagonal Advanced Placement or DAP) The hooves of a diagonal pair of limbs ( in trot or canter) do not contact the ground at the same moment.
1. Positive Dissociation - the hind hoof of the diagonal pair touches the ground first (as in canter pirouette and racing gallop - 4 beats.)
2. Negative Dissociation - the front hoof of the diagonal pair touches the ground first (as in lazy, constrained, or disorganized canter - 4 beats).
From Ridingart.com:
Some consider +DAP (diagonal dissociation) to be a desirable trait for today’s dressage competition horses. However, there are classical masters, both past and present, who consider +DAP to be an impurity of the gait. Even though the actual placement of the +DAP steps themselves may be invisible to the naked eye, other visual symptoms such as imbalance and tension can be clearly visible. In addition, +DAP strides are audible. The classical masters did not need the marvels of modern technology to recognize +DAP; they could hear it. You can hear +DAP interval simulations for yourself: https://www.ridingart/+dap_sounds.htm
From https://diagonaladvancedplacement.blogspot.com/
The assumption is that the hind hoof lands a fraction of a second before the diagonal fore and that both feet then leave the ground at the same time. But this is vary rarely ever the case. What is far more frequently seen (even in the top competition rides) is that when the hind hoof lands first the forehand continues forward until the forehoof lands, causing the horse to be out behind. When watching video of the top dressage competition horses +DAPing in slow motion it is very often noticeable that the front end of the horse is slowed down in relation to the hind end. The forehand is basically a fraction of a beat behind the hindquarters throughout the stride. There seems to be a correlation between the amount of +DAP and the length of time the front hoof is left on the ground after the hind hoof has taken off. When the diagonal pair land together they usually leave the ground together. When the hind hoof lands well in advance of the front hoof, the front hoof is usually grounded relatively longer. When the hind hoof lands barely in advance of the front hoof, the front hoof usually ends up grounded but not as long as when the +DAP is greater.
Yes, the renown Hillary Clayton has published studies showing that positive DAP (when the hind leg lands first) is "desirable" however, only when it cannot be seem by the naked eye.
You need a bigger spoon  to stir pots around here.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 10:17 am:
Lori
In the heavy draft horses...Shires, Clydes etc they like them to be cow-hocked...the saying goes they want them to be able to poop on one hock and knock it off with the off... uhhhhh, I guess its a conformation of strength in pulling.
I also read the reason Lippizaner have the action they do is because thousands of years ago when the breed was first developing it actually developed in a marshy area. So they needed to be able to lift their feet about the muck to move.
Paddling is not considered a flaw in the Paso fino or ( I think) in the Baroque breeds (eLK?) but is in a dressage ring.
Alot of the old school cowboys liked horses that were camped under behind...they thought it was easier for them to get under themselves and work the cattle. ( I disagree with this school of thought) but its something Ive heard alot in the older Quarter horse publications.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 10:44 am:
Ok, so I have a question about positive DAP. I have only seen a very few horses "in the flesh" that do this. It certainly makes for some pretty photos, BUT every horse that I personally have seen travel in this manner is also undeniably braced through the underside of the neck (inverted) in the phase of the stride where the hind legs are suspended. This isn't the photogenic moment, obviously, but I wonder if it's unavoidable?
If the forefeet remain on the ground, even for a moment, when the hind feet have left the ground, then that horse is technically on the forehand during that instant, right? So the uphill outline must be created, at least in part, by raising and bracing the neck, I suspect. Which is not desirable in dressage, even though great fancy gaits certainly score well.
So my questions are 1) am I correct that a horse with positive DAP is momentarily on the forehand in every trot stride? 2) Has anyone seen a horse that moves this way be technically correct in front of the saddle at trot? I just scanned through a bunch of high caliber rider/horse pair images, and the ones that seem to show this are also braced through the underside of the neck....
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 11:46 am:
Ooops, Leslie, just saw your question. What we call paddling and winging has several technical descriptions in Spain, depending on the exact conformational trait that causes the movement. The most common is "campaneo," caused by deviation of the cannon bone. We would call that paddling.
This trait was once desirable, but is now considered a flaw in Spain, not sure what the Mundial people say about it. Realistically, many horses paddle slightly and are still competitive, but extreme paddling is difficult to compete in dressage, and can be very challenging for lengthenings and extensions. It also can cause a horse to interfere with himself when learning to jump, though they seem to adapt pretty well.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 3:28 pm:
Lori, I would agree with the post above that 'good movement' is subjective and dependent on the discipline and what the horse is used for. However in the riding disciplines I'm familiar with, a commonality is that as the horse advances he is asked to carry increasingly more weight on the haunches through collection, regardless of the frame he's doing it in (reining, dressage, hunter etc)
My own personal preferences, regardless of discipline, are lightness, throughness, cadence, and a horse that swings and uses his back.
On kind of the same subject, one thing I have always wondered is this: any time I see horses moving at liberty, unless they are arching their neck for social reasons, their neck is carried up and the nose is well out in front of the vertical. Almost never do I see a horse moving free really broken at the poll, and they can do tremendously gymnastic movements in that frame.
I wonder if it's possible to ride a horse in that frame and still achieve the movements we desire? Has anyone ever tried? Come to think of it, I've seen some reining patterns ridden bridle-less and the nose tends to be carried more forward with the throatlatch very open.
Has anyone ever seen someone ride a dressage pattern bridle-less? Would it even be possible?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 3:40 pm:
Chris, great explanation of gaits. So am i to understand that good articulation is a horse flexes its hock and brings its pastern up underneath itself?
The more a horse does this the better (as far as dresage goes)
This is what is meant by hock action?
I have heard of +DAP also, interesting observation elk. I will have to watch for that.
Thank you for the link to the A Gribbons article. I must have read it before because a couple of her ideas have stuck with me, like wanting a horse to canter instead of just trot around and also watching how it turns. Very good article.
I agree that a big lofty trot would not be comfy if I was moving cows out of rough country.
I have also read that a horse with a slightly wider stance in the back is desirable for dressage and jumping.
Leslie, I too have heard that a working cowhorse should be slightly under himself. If you don't mind why don't you agree?
It seems to me that when I see the top reiners and cutting horses they are slightly under.
Maybe this should be a new thread under conformation?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 3:50 pm:
Shannon, I have wondered the same thing. I have seen Stacy Westfall ride reining patterns bridleless and like you say the nose is definitely up but the horse still seems quite balanced.
Robin Brueckmann and Lynn Palm do bridleless dressage but I havent seen it.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 4:11 pm:
Narrower is better than wide behind for dressage-- try it yourself with your legs widely spaced and narrow, and then try to lengthen your stride. A narrow base of support is one thing most upper-level horses have in common.
Katie Hoefs used to demo an Intermediare I pattern first with and then without the bridle. It was a great demo, but the horse would get more crooked as he went w/o the bridle (DrOpping the left shoulder, and then creeping the haunches right). Why maintain perfect posture if no one is asking? So it was absolutely achievable, and fun to watch, but not very precise.
I saw Lynn Palm do a demo once, and the horse was very obedient and pleasant, but not "through" and certainly inverted in the neck (also true of what's-his-name who is so famous for this).
I agree that horses on their own are rarely on the vertical. I've never understood the claim in any sport that it's natural for the horse. What seems natural for my horses is to amble around, sleep, eat, and play a bit. And roll, groom, etc.. They never tack themselves up and carry people around for fun, go on long hikes, jump a complex series of arbitrary obstacles, or twink around a dressage court. Sadly, they have me in their lives!
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 4:18 pm:
I did a bunch of research on hock conformation just last fall (had to do a paper last semester). There isn't a heck of a lot of science on hock conformation but what is there is fairly consistent:
1) Energy is "created" in the stifle and the fetlocks not the hock, so the hock is all about transmitting that energy up or down the leg with as little loss as possible
2) there are a range of hock angles (from the side)that permit this: 150 - 155 degrees is roughly the range and outside of this clearly predisposes the animal to injury.
3) Dressage, jumpers and race horses tend toward higher angle measures (straighter legs), stock horses toward the lower range(more bent legs) within this range.
4) I could not find a single scientific source that said cow hocked, base wide or base narrow (all measures from behind) was a desirable trait... and I was reading English, French, Dutch, German, Swedish, Finnish, Portuguese and Spanish research (all translated either to English or French).
Food for thought...
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 5:12 pm:
Elk  I like to think they enjoy the things we do with them for the most part. Or at least the interaction and special attention. And we do have a couple that will jump things in the pasture for sport. But I have yet to see them execute a perfect half-pass across the field
Now a cross country round bridle-less, THAT would be something to see!!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 5:35 pm:
Hi Shannon-- we all know that unnatural doesn't mean unfun! Sometimes, the reverse seems to be true, but I digress.
I have a friend who schools XC in a halter/leaDrOpe all the time. That's jumping single jumps in sequence vs. galloping a course, however.
CherylA, can you share your paper with us?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 6:08 pm:
One thing I find ( for heavy drafts) is the term 'set'. Ive always considered 'set' to be a bit of a deviation. Ive always loosely termed it cow hock--perhaps wrongly. Can anyone (DrO)explain this bit of paragraph to me, please.
What do you look for in a good shire? Good draft horse conformation in general, including "set". Set is having angle to the hind legs for leverage. This is NOT to be confused with being "cow hocked". Cow hocks are when the actual leg joints are not in alignment and are angled. A horse with good set has a perfectly straight leg (as is important in any breed) and that whole leg is put onto the horse at a slight angle, with hocks together. ( hmmmm,  wouldnt that make it base narrow? ) This is what a pulling horse of any type needs to do his job properly. An old saying goes that a good draft horse will, (expletives removed :>) At a walk, "Poop on one hock, and knock it off with the other as it goes by".
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 6:36 pm:
Lori
I was taught that camped under horses could collect easier but will accelerate slower. For example: Camped under barrel horses could collect for the turn easier but coming out of the turn were slower to get going ...range of motion.(add to that the early lameness issue.)
Alot of old timers will disagree. Just what I was taught.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Feb 16, 2009 - 7:40 pm:
Positive DAP = uphill
Negative DAP = on the forehand
I think a good example of positive DAP is a good canter pirouette.
Lori, to my mind, articulation is just moving the joint. The degree to which the joint is moved is going to be a function of the movement being performed. A big trot that is pushing from behind is going to bend the hock more than a Western jog.
Leslie, I think what you are calling "camped under" is what I meant by sickle hocked.
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 7:09 am:
Chris, wouldn't articulation of the joint mean BENDING at the joint (i.e., flexing and extending)?
When we talk about 'action', can it be we are talking about how much a joint (or series of joints) is actually flexed and extended through motion? Coming back to hocks, in a dressage horse we expect to see that joint flex and extend, through its full range of motion. On the other hand, the knee/shoulder extension and flexion like we might want to see with a hackney is NOT desirable in a dressage horse!
Leslie, your description of drafts is not necessarily base narrow. Base narrow (and base wide)is about deviation of the lower leg, cow hock (and bow legged) are about deviations of the hock.
FROM BEHIND... DrOp a plumb line from the point of the bum. In a well-conformed horse that line will bisect the point of the hock and bisect the back of the hoof.
If the plumb line bisects the point of the hock but passes outside the hoof, you have base narrow.
if the plumb line bisects the hoof but falls outside of the hock then you have cow hocked.
Any of these deviations mean the force from the stifle and/or fetlock is being unevenly distributed through the hock - in this case either to the inside or outside of the hock. This predisposes the animal to injury.
As for sharing my paper- here's the problem: While I stand by my research, I am not a vet and one of the good things about this site is everything posted is either very clearly by a vet and science based or very clearly a discussion. I think this would muddy things (in a bad way). So how about if you are interested, send me an email and I will send you a copy...I will make sure my email address shows on my profile...
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 9:54 am:
Cheryl, I think we're saying the same thing; articulation = bending/flexing. While I personally don't care for lots of knee action in a dressage horse, I do want good shoulder extension. Many of the successful Baroque dressage horses have, imo, limited shoulder movement but lots of knee action. I think it's a matter of style, but let's face it, until a Baroque horse knocks the Warmbloods off the international dressage pedestal, that's going to be the standard.
Out here, Freisians have gotten very popular for dressage. Some of them are quite nice; others, not so much. When the latter don't score well, some folks chalk it up to a bias against that style of horse.
I recommend scribing at a dressage show or auditing the L program if you really want an education in gait evaluation. You get to hear the opinions of knowledgeable people. Amazingly enough, after watching 15 Training level tests in a row they don't all look the same, they actually start to look very different.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 17, 2009 - 10:46 am:
Cheryl and others
I cant seem to wrap my brain around this:
A horse with good set has a perfectly straight leg (as is important in any breed) and that whole leg is put onto the horse at a slight angle, with hocks together.
I try to imagine a plumb line of a horse with 'set' and still see a deviation of the norm
But hey, I admit I was a C student in high school<grin>
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Member:
canderso
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2009 - 8:05 am:
Leslie, I think you DO see the point. All I am saying is that a 'good set' is a concept that may not be supported by the anatomists or the biomechanics (biomechanicists???). I say 'MAY' because there really isn't a lot of research in the area.
Oh, and I just reread my own paper. Normal range is 150 - 170 degrees (oops! Old age!).
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