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Discussion on Oldenburgs
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Member:
Seraf
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Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 8:44 pm:
Are oldenburgs and hanoverians the same breed?
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New Member:
Osage
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Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 11:49 pm:
Hi Daniela,
No they aren't the same, actually neither is a breed, they're registries. (A breed is typically a closed book, meaning a foal born from registered mare bred to a registered stallion automatically qualifies for registration).
A registry is different. There are certain qualifications for a mare or stallion to be approved for breeding, being born from registered parents might be only one of the qualifications.
Much can be written about it but the short version is that a mare is approved for a registry. She is bred to an approved stallion, then the foal may be presented for foal papers. Some stallions are accepted for multiple registries. So you could have an Oldenberg and a Hanoverian that both have the same sire.
The origination of the names of the German registries was the region the horses were based in. Hannover is the best known region and home of the Verden auctions.
This is all off the top of my head but there are books you can read about it, or you can look at the homepages of the various registries. Hope this helps, Janice
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 7:00 am:
Oh cool! A rather non-political thread!
Daniela, I believe that most Warmblood registries are as Janice said. The horses are a type. The parents can come from the registry, or they can be of other breeding but approved by that registry. Many of the warmbloods are predominantly Thoroughbred, interestingly, because most of these registries allow it as though the Thoroughbreds were of the registry. Hope this didn't just confuse you.
There are American registries for warmbloods, you know.
American Warmblood Society inspects and rates any breed that is of the type to compete in Olympic sports. A horse must get a minimum score to be registered. Can be any breed except pure Arabian or pure Thoroughbred (they can be nominated, but not registered). Sorry, off topic a little, but that's how a lot of warmblood registries work.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 5:46 am:
I believe the only closed warmblood studbook is the Trakehner.
Oldenburgs are generally bigger, heavier, slower and with higher knee action that the Hannoverian.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 3:54 pm:
Sorry Christos but I am afraid you just offended a few Oldenburg owners. They used a lot of blood the last decades and are at the moment equally heavy as the other german registered studbooks. Their origin was heavier then the Holsteins
but Hannoverians were also a bit heavier then the Holsteiner breed.
Furthermore I have owned a Trakehner who' s dam was a Thoroughbred! So much for the closed studbook.
Jos
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 4:58 pm:
Oh, sorry, Jos, you are right. I did not mean no big differences and certainly no offense.
Though I do own a 1/2 Hannoverian (KWPN out of Nurprimus) who is very big and heavy, I still believe he is an exception (18.2 is not typical Hannoverian)
The Oldenburgs I have seen were all huge, 17hh or more and very heavy. But that's some 4-5 horses, may be not enough to judge the breed.
All closed studbooks will still import Thoroughbred or Arabian blood for refinement from time to time.
PS: Help, Jos, can you please translate this for me?
ONREGELMATIGE LANGE SMALLE KOL, B.A.B. SOK BINNEN OPLOPEND
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 5:27 am:
Hello Christos,KWPN horses tend to have rather heavy products when mixed with Hannoverians[more so then with Oldenburgs and Holsteiners] Someone explained to me they linked bloodlines from the past which made them a bit 'oldfashioned' I dont know if this is true.
I know studbooks use thoroughbred and arabian blood but never knew they accepted mares as well as stallions, usually they accept a stallion with the conformation they like to use.
Translation: irregular long small blaze , inside hind leg white foot inside higher.[A'kol' is smaller then a blaze but sorry I dont know the right English word and after moving to Normandie I am surrounded by French dictionaries but my English one seems to have been left in Holland]
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 7:31 am:
Thank you, Jos, it is really nice to hear that you're in Normandy as you planned.
I also know one KWPN out of G.Ramiro Z, and he is also huge and heavy, old fashioned as you say. Both him and mine are bigger, heavier than their parents.
One thing I need to clarify is that I do not refer to weight in a horse as a disadvantage. For dressage, I prefer them "baroque". That, of course, is blasphemy in modern breeding and I apologise once more for my poor choice of words.
I was speaking this morning to the friend who owned the Oldenburgs and guess what, he says you're right, his horses are exceptionally big and heavy.
Thanks again for the translation.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 1:03 pm:
Christos,one of the funny things about the offspring of G Ramiro Z[in my opinion together with Alme Z the leading stallions of the last century for showjumpers] was thet the stallions tended to be big and often baroque [nice word exactly describes what I intended to say]while the mares were showing much more blood[also in their caracters remember my own mare? inbred to Ramiro]
About the 'blasphemy' thing I do agree with you especially for riders that do not have the 'Anky van Grunsven' gift. For breeding I not even prefer a horse with bones and 'room' I wont breed any others. Ofcourse the amount of weight depends on the race.
If you or your friend likes to have more detailed information on the parents of Dutch horses dont hesitate to ask[and in a little while I will be able to include information on French horses ]
Jos
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 5:28 pm:
Thanks for the info, Jos, it is much appreciated.
I am very interested in classic, baroque horses with a lot of power. What I am actually trying to do is to reproduce the old school where the diagonal was not separating in canter pirouettes and there was suspension in piaffe. Wishful thinking, but I still think there's a remote chance of achieving it (in 20 years, perhaps).
The sad part is that horses with bone, muscle and heart strong enough to do these things are considered now too heavy, as most breeders are aiming for huge extension and a floating gait, the ultimate modern dressage values.
So I turned to showjumper lines, I think there's better hope there. We'll see how this goes, I'll now much more by next year.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 8:45 pm:
Hi Jos, I notice that you live in Groningen. That reminds me that I was told there are two types of Dutch Warmbloods. One type from Groningen (the heavier, and usually darker in color???) and another lighter type known from another province? Is that correct?
I seem to remember from when I was searching for a stallion to breed to. Incidentally, I finally decided on a Friesian stallion, another Dutch horse!
By the way, my best friend is from Sheveningen (hope I spelled that somewhat remotely correctly!).
Erika
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:09 am:
Erica, Scheveningen is the way you spell this name,you nearly got it right
I recently moved to Normandy in France I still need to adjust my profile, but yes I lived in Groningen for a long time. Groningers are an old Dutch breed of horses used on farms on the heavy clay soil in the north of Holland, they are nearly extinct now.
Gelders was the other type coming from the middle of Holland lighter soil lighter breed of horse [not very much lighter though]They still exist a few dedicated breeders keeps this breed alive within the KWPNstudbook. Both breeds together formed the KWPN. Groningers founded with heavy Oldenburgs and Holsteiners, Gelders using a bit of the Selle Francais.
The Friesian as you undoubtedly know is a breed apart from these other two.Founded in the province Friesland[neighbour of Groningen]the people of Friesland do not only have their own type of horse but also their own language!Both of them quite different from everything else in Holland[I know my mother was a Friesian[woman]]
Do you have a Friesian crossbred? If so I would love to see a picture.
Christos, If you want to breed a classic type of horse you might want to look into the Gelders whom I mentioned above they were founders of the recent KWPN and are still much more heavy some of them do very well in dressage, another pro for them is their health, Iam sorry to say that though heavy horses exist in the KWPN they are often not as healthy and hardy as they should be [OCD and Arthrosis mostly] which ofcourse is a necessity in a heavier type and I suppose under Greek circumstances as well. There are some older lines of the Holsteiners which would suit you as well I think. I would like to know more about your goals and how you mean to achieve them[Once a breeder always interested!]
Jos
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 9:14 am:
Jos & Christos...I'm following your discussion with interest as my mare is a Holsteiner of "baroque" proportions. I've had people refer to her as a "throwback" because she is not as refined looking as what they are breeding now (she is also substantially shorter at 16HH). However, every clinician I have trained with has been blown away by the purity of her gaits and the way she moves (when I get MY act together). I am convinced it is her solid build (bone) that helped her recover to 100% sound after a devastating hock injury 2 years ago.
I hope to get her into the show ring this summer and ride well enough to do her justice.
Anyway, if this is the build you are interested in, my mare's bloodlines are as follows: The stallion was Lombard (son of Landgraf I) and the dam was Wella II (daughter of Lagos). Both sides had Ladykiller, who I'm told was something special, although I know nothing of this horse. I don't know enough about breeding or bloodlines as I'm too much of an amateur to want to attempt it, but I've been told that I should breed my mare for her movement, confirmation & temperament. I've considered it but firmly believe that breeding animals should be left to people who have a clue - not me!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 9:47 am:
I'm afraid I will disappoint you, Jos.
Pretty much as Fran says, breeding is not my field, I do not quite understand it and I find no reason to get involved. I can buy the horses I need cheaper than they'd cost me to produce them.
Mac, the KWPN I bought this year cost me 3300 euro at 11yo. Totally healthy, unbelievable bone and muscle, excellent hunter, good foundation in Dressage and a character you'd cry for, what better can I produce?
My goal with him is rather simple: to preserve his powerful leaping from one diagonal to the other, maintain his total ignorance about swishing tails and laid back ears and if possible reach High School in 8 years. My seat and balance need quite some work in that direction, but I think it may be possible. Whatever the outcome, I enjoy working with him so I don't really care whether we ever reach that goal or not.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 9:56 am:
I just want to thank all of you for this posting as I have learned a great deal.
Jos, I spent quite some time in Holland and was in Scheveningen in the winter. I've never been so cold!
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 11:25 am:
Thats right people, keep up this discussion. I am enjoying it emensely. I have been reading it intently, unfortunately with nothing profound to add. I have breed my retired TB/HAN to three different stallions. They all look and act just just like the sire. Which of course is just fine. The conformation similarities were fine with me, I just wish they had more of the "go" that my mare had. My mare Was a very classical looking HAN type. She reminds one of those old hunting pictures with those more angular shaped horses.
Not at all the type you are describing in these breeds. Very interesting though !
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 11:44 am:
I love the baroque look, and I'm sorry that you say it has gone out of fashion. I guess a Lipizzaner wouldn't get a second look in a dressage ring nowadays?
Jos, as soon as I take the time to read and figure out how to resize my pictures I will post my half-Friesian.
Christos, okay, I'll take the horse!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:15 pm:
Erika! I'd love to shoot a couple of decent pictures, but the big boy is currently enjoying a summer off saddle in his homeland (so am I in mine). These are the only ones I have, from our first day together:
 
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:21 pm:
Christos, no disappointment on my side I always stated riders should leave the breeding to breeders and vice versa [ofcourse both sides should from time to time have a go at the other side just for fun and to keep respect for different abilities]and you are right buying is much more efficient then breeding apart from the fact that you can get your prospect thoroughly examined by a vet before starting to pour in al the work[and money]
Fran your 'throwback isn't surprising as both stallions are from a generation of more 'baroque' Holsteiners. Apart from being very good for dressage I like these kind of mares for breeding too, mostly healthy a good caracter[important for a mom in my opinion] and 'roomy' mares and thus lots of choice in stallions who are being sportshorses and often a bit 'modern' or lack a bit in 'bones'. Inbred to Ladykiller[one of the best thoroughbreds used in Holstein] she must be a pleasure to own and ride.For breeding the Stamm number is important perhaps you could look it up on her paper it might give more information. All Holsteiners got a family number[Stammnr.]the lower the number the older registrated the family.
Ilona one of the reasons for me to leave Holland was the temperature and always wind! Here in Normandy my horses can stay outdoors all year with ofcourse free acces to their boxes as they were used to being pampered in winter free acces to a stable is a 'must' they tell me
Shelley my first broodmare was a thorougbred who gave 8 foals from 5 different stallions[mostly Holsteiners with Ramiro blood Christos!] al of her children resembled their fathers and all of them jumped on 1.40 level! Confirmation was excellent to character resembled mummy thoroughbred from time to time.
Erika I love to see your half Friesian I half Friesians are rare in Holland.
There are a few Lippizaners and two or three very good Andalusian horses at the top level at this moment but they indeed do not win.
Jos
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:28 pm:
Grrrrr! Somehow I knew it wouldn't work! I'll keep trying.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:49 pm:
Fran, as far as I can tell from a picture, your mare is exactly the type of horse I like. Beautiful girl!
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:29 pm:
Thank you, Christos, for the kind compliment. It's her temperament that I love best, as she is a very kind and patient schoolmaster and there is very little that spooks her. Your horse has a sweet face and a lovely uphill canter. Enjoy!
Jos, you've filled in a few holes on my mare's breeding for me-thank you. Her paperwork is all in German so, much to my shame, I cannot read it except for following the names. I had no idea that LadyKiller was a TB. I looked up the Stamm number that you refer to. What exactly does it mean? In my mare's case, the number is 569. Would you be willing to translate a few other terms for me? I had my Mother try to read the papers for me shortly after I bought the horse and 'tho my Mom speaks/reads German, she is no horse person and the equine terms were beyond her comprehension.
It seems to me that I'm seeing more & more Andalusions / Lusitanos in dressage. I don't know how they are stacking up against the warm bloods in the show ring, but I've been giving serious consideration to these beauties as my next horse. There is something about them that really appeals to me and I've been told that they have great temperaments as well. Having never actually seen one in person and hoping that my mare continues to stay happy & healthy for a long long time, well, I have plenty of time for some research (knock on wood)!!
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:42 am:
Fran I will do my best to translate for you, though German language is really a foreign language to me[I converse with most of my German aquaintances by speaking English which they understand and they speak back in German which I understand] Having seen a lot of German studbook papers an having several German books on the studbooks I am sure I will be able to explain some of it.
The 'Stammnr' is very important most buyers are almost more interested in the "stammnr' [which indicates from which family the horse comes] then in the parents. Like not so good father beautiful stammnr. better expectations then famous father stammnr with no interesting [sports]history.
Lagos was a son of Ladykiller xx[born 61 EnglandVSailing light.MVLoaningdale,twice inbred on Phalaris, furthermore Hyperion and Son in Law brown 1.64m] MV Moltke which explains the white colour and the 'throwback' look.[mostly famed for breeding showjumpers]
Lombard was by Landgraf[most famous son of Ladykiller only equalled by'Lord']MV Ramiro and after that Gabriel[very old blood!].All in all a very good paper.
The family is also well know but information on the stammnr would take to A4s [all relations of your mare who have been know for dressage showjumping or their offspring]If you are interested I could give you a summary but that would take some time.
On the Andalusion /Lusitano subject : In France they are used regularly for dressage [referred to as:Iberian Horses which seems to be the correct name over here] They also have a more modern type for competition and the óldfashioned type. I hope to visit a stable this summer where these horses are ridden in the higher levels of dressage. If you are interested I will keep you posted.
Jos
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 8:43 am:
Jos,
Thank you. I appreciate your explanation, but I do not understand the part about "A4s". That's a term I'm certain I have never heard. Also, in the papers, what does it mean when there is an xx next to a horse's name (for example Sailing Light XX)? I see that they designate LadyKiller with HLP (I'm assuming an abbreviation for TB in German) and there are other horses in the lineage with HOL and H next to their names. The HOL must be Holsteiner, but do you know what the "H" stands for?
This is all so fascinating - I've tried to learn more about my mare's past, with a huge lack of success. I know at some point, she had a winning show record at Devon, but after contacting them, I was told they don't keep records for more than a few (3? I think) years. None of it is all that important, it's more to satisfy my own curiosity. Regardless, you've given me some great info.
And yes, I would LOVE to hear about your visit to the stable of Iberian horses. Heck, I wish I could go with you! I'd be very interested in your opinion of their temperaments and whether or not you think the breed as a whole would be suitable for an adult amateur with more determination than talent.
Thank you!
Fran
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:40 am:
Sorry Fran with A 4 I meant to say 'to normalsized papers typed full with information'[a bit much to post over here?]
XX stands for Thoroughbred[OX for Arab]
HLP Hengstleistungsprufung All the stallions need to do a test [of approximately 90 days]to show how they work under the saddle[dressage jump crosscountry and character assesment]
H mostly means accepted by the studbook HSP for a mare accepted with higher points.[just looks no work involved]
I am very curious myself how the'Cheval Iberique' will be, for me France is such a surprise so much more other types of horses over here then I was used to in Holland. They say the temperament is easy and I can believe it becaus at the moment a friend lends me his riding horse[father Arab mother Andalusian] and she is the best learning horse I have ever ridden[mostly in the forests we call her 'the four leg drive' because she never ever stumbles or stops] Still she would not do very well for dressage lacking to much in especially canter. So I eagerly await the 'concours type' Iberian horse!
Still my preference will always be the beloved Holsteiners I can't image you complaining!
Jos
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 1:46 pm:
Ah Jos, I am definitely not complaining! I love my big girl and am very grateful I ended up with her. However, it was really a complete stroke of dumb luck that lead us to cross paths and then for me to buy her. Realistically, I know that I will unlikely be able to afford another like her (she was very inexpensive considering her training, breeding, etc). I can't imagine lucking out twice so once it's time to retire her (hopefully no time soon), I thought maybe I'd go in a completely different breed direction. That said, I am completely enamoured with dressage so wherever I end up, dressage will remain the horse sport of choice for me so I will need a suitable partner.
Thank you again. You've been very helpful!
Fran
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 9:07 pm:
Here is my Friesian/American Saddlebred filly. One month under saddle.
Erika
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 7:53 am:
I like her! She still has some feathers on her legs and the head resembles a Friesian very much but she seems a lot less heavy which[I hesitate to say this in this discussion] must be more comfortable to ride and she should have more stamina too.Is she brown or black?
Jos
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 8:43 am:
Thanks Jos,
she is a very sweet and trusting horse, too. Her sire is a modern-type Friesian and not at all heavy--though, like you said, I do like that type too. She has a lovely floating trot.
(Obviously I like her!)
Erika
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 1, 2006 - 8:45 am:
Oh, and she is blue-black when she first sheds out, although she fades quickly with 24/7 turnout.
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