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Discussion on Rats Again!! - The Poison Issue
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Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2001 - 9:30 am:
Okay guys - I've read all the interesting posts in this section on ingenious rat eradication (or is that e"rat"ication?), & before I go out & buy stock in crunchy-style Skippy - has anyone used any of the poisons in their barn areas?
Our barn is only 2 years new - actually still in the finishing stage - & for some reason this summer we were suddenly INUNDATED with rats. First the little black roof rats moved in (found one DrOwned in a water bucket one morning - Ugh!), followed by the Norway's - some of which are about the size of a possum!! Since our feed/tack room isn't finished yet, all our grain is kept inside the house, & while they haven't been chewing on anything - they are digging underground tunnels that rival "The Great Escape". I have tried rat snap-traps & Hav-A-Heart traps with absolutely no luck except for a few poor unfortunate mice. Out of desperation I even started pouring Pine-Sol disinfectant down the holes thinking that perhaps the odor would drive them away. Why I thought this would work, I have no idea - I must be going loopy at the thought that soon my horses will be breaking their legs in their own stalls with all these damn holes!!
Anyway, to end a long story, my feed guy said that a customer of his just began using the Purina "Assault" rodent killer, which is supposed to kill with just one bite, & that she happily came in the other day claiming to have found piles of dead rats all over the place. (What a splendid picture!) Is something like this safe to use around horses? What if a dead rat ends up in a water bucket? Would a horse even drink from a bucket with a dead rat in it? (My buckets are checked constantly except for nighttime.) The feed guy said that the amount required to kill a rat is very small compared to what it would take to kill a larger animal like a dog or a horse - is this true? I couldn't find any info on the Purina site.
Thanks for wading thru this epic &/or supplying any info. I'M DESPERATE!!! (I found a hole so large this morning I could put a door on it & rent it out as a room!!)
Bonnie
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Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2001 - 10:18 am:
I find the smaller rats in the buckets on occasion. I have never had a problem with the horses, either. Its the cats you need to worry about. But luckily we haven't had any deaths from them.
I have put two water buckets in my horses stall. That might help in the DrOwned rat/horse won't drink dilemma.
I don't know the brand name, but the rat poison looks like little green balls. I put them in odd places and it seems to work.
As for pouring your Pine-sol down the holes I bet you are gonna get just very clean smelling rats. LOL. Or what are those movies where the animals become gigantic mutants and its all because of our toxic rivers and such. You might be creating a new rat. 
jojo
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Posted on Friday, Oct 19, 2001 - 11:35 am:
I don't think you should use poisons because they end up killing (or making sick) a cat or a bird that gets the dead or dying rat. I have two farm cats and we have an agreement. I feed you - you catch mice. If I don't see any dead mice for awhile...I take up the food dish and they aren't allowed to spend time sleeping in the garage. OUT! Then I see moles, little snakes, birds, mice, rats. Lots of "gifts" left on the driveway to appease the person in charge of room and board. I praise them hardily handing out dry and canned food so they understand this is what I want. Even though this grosses me out so bad (yuck) I don't have a problem with mice, rats or other things that make me scream. My husband is in charge of "gift removal".
I use moth crystals around the perimeter of the house. It keeps the mice and snakes away. You can put it in socks or in knee highs and throw it under the house too. It will smell like Grandma's attic for a day or so. But it really works! If you want to put something in that hole, try that. Don't use it where the horses could get to it. I too keep my feed and scale to weigh the feed in the mud room of the house where I can keep things in closed containers and swept up better. If the snakes and mice come looking for a place to get warm at this time of year, I have the "NO VACANCY" sign out. Between the cats and the moth crystals it keeps the bums out. Good Luck and Happy Hunting!
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 8:10 am:
I disagree Cathleen with your assessment of the use of poisons, though caution needs to be exercised. Without proper management, particularly keeping the feeds rodent proof and several good cats or terriers around no amount of poison will help. But some cases do seem to warrant the use of a rodentcide. Used with care the products that I am familiar with can be used safely.
Be sure to follow all instructions on the labels as products are becoming increasingly potent and the manufacturer will know what is best.
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 10:14 am:
I appreciate your right to disagree, yet in my personal opinion I still believe any time we can use a more "natural" approach to exterminating, or any kind of farm management we are all better off in the world. I would try anything before putting poisons out into our food chain. Ever see an animal die from a poison? Not pretty or even humane. Traps checked and reset daily & hidden so the cats don't get them would be better than rat poison in my book. She plans to use this stuff around a barn where animals live and eat the grass. Who really knows what the residual effects that can have for years to come. I think well managed you can take care of a moderate problem in a short period of time without a chemical. Read the label on a rodenticide...you won't see anything "good" on it. Takes a Hazardous Waste Team just to dispose of the stuff. YUCK! 
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 10:32 am:
I know Cathie. I am a strictly organic gardener & therefore extremely ambivalent about going the poison route - but am at my "rats" end!
It is horrible to watch even a rat die from poisoning. I used to raise chickens & we resorted to poison (warfarin, I believe) when the tunneling became so bad the 6"-thick concrete chicken house floor collapsed! It broke my heart to watch those rats die, but once again, the traps did nothing, & my cats weren't interested in tackling rats. Guess the size + aggressiveness gave them pause for thought.
I did go out & buy a sack of additional snap traps yesterday & will give it one more whirl before deciding to put out poison. At this point I am more concerned with accidentally poisoning a cat or dog than the feelings of the rats, but at least this new stuff (Purina Assault) is supposed to kill instantly rather than making the rats lingeringly sick for days.
Maybe this time the traps will work. I'd be happy to at least catch ONE!! Time will tell. . .
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 10:55 am:
I am sorry you are having such a problem and I do hope you can find some sort of happy medium to the whole issue without resorting to arsenic. Eeek! I use peanut butter mixed with sweet feed to bait the traps and have good results with that when I am actually seeing mice in or around the barn. Generally when they harvest the fields around me at this time of year. I know there is no easy answer to complete pest control. Some of it we just have to live with - ugh. Others like rats...no way!
I have had fabulous results using beneficial nematodes for moles, and flea control. Check out www.planetnatural.com or www.bugshoppe.com Lots of cool ways to naturally exterminate.
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 11:32 am:
Cathie
I've used the nematodes for fleas. Sprayed 6 years ago and haven't had ANY fleas since. Don't use any flea products because we don't need them.
You said you used nematodes for moles ? ? ? Would like the story on this one.
I don't think it's possible to totally get rid of mice and rats but your Am Staff manages to keep the population pretty much under control. He even gets a few of the moles but not enough.
Cheryl K.
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 2:36 pm:
You know we're going to get in trouble for putting this information on Bonita's rat page, but here goes.
The benefical nematodes attack the grubs that the moles eat. It attacks them much like fleas on a dog...from what I understand in doing the Internet research. (no footnotes)
Ever dug in the garden and found grubs? I had a lot of them, and moles too. I lived in town then. I sprayed the yard with the BN and it got rid of the grubs which is mole food. No food - no moles - they moved with no forwarding address.
The flea's being gone were wonderful too. Although I had done this to get rid of moles.
The LOL FUNNY thing was, not long after I realize the moles were gone and had stopped eating the fortune I had spent on the landscaping, the neighbors were all out chatting at the mailboxes saying "how bad the moles were in their yards!" HA! I didn't have ANY!
Woo-Hoo!
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 3:04 pm:
Hey - rats, mice, moles, fleas - the more the merrier! They're all PESTS!!! Feel perfectly free to use my "rat page" anytime.
B.
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 20, 2001 - 6:27 pm:
Bonita
Thanks ! ! ! If you have any fleas - I can vouch for the beneficial nematodes - We just sprayed them around the areas the dogs spent most of their time when they were outside - they must have spread out like crazy because I haven't seen one flea is 6 years - We use to have a horrible flea problem - Had a fight with my vet over whether or not my dog was allergic to fleas - Told her he had never had a flea - Tests came back as allergic to EVERYTHING but fleas - They just don't believe we don't have any. Cost $30.00 - which I think is a pretty good bargin -
Cheryl K
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2001 - 7:50 am:
Bonita,
I agree with Dr. O regarding the rat problem. Most cats will not go after a rat and for every rat you catch in a trap, there are 50 more breeding almost daily. About 20 yrs ago, I had a horrible rat problem (horses didn't even want to go into their stalls). The farmer to my north had bought 100's of tires piled up to the roof of his barn - he was going to go into the recycling business but never did. Inbetween that and my barn was a corn field. Rat Heaven - plenty of shelter and plenty of food! Of course when they brought the corn in, half the rats in the field would scurry in my direction. I tried everything! and the problem just continued to get worse. Finally put the rat bait (poison) into the rat holes. That was the only thing that worked. Finally the farmer sold and the new owners cleaned out the tires with no more rats since.
Regarding any cats or dogs, most animals will not eat anything that is already dead (especially cats). My vet also told me that the poison is 2nd hand in the dead rats and in all probability would not effect another animal unless they ate alot of them. Just put the poison in places where the other animals can't get at it directly.
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2001 - 9:39 am:
Hello All,
Sally, your veterinarian is right, as long as you keep the cats and dogs out of the bait it is very very unlikely that they will become poisoned ingesting the rodents. With careful use Cathleen's fears are unfounded.
We have posts in The Advisor where folks with cats had such a rat problem they were chewing on and wounding the horses. They transimit disease, particularly Leptospirosis a cause of sepsis, recurrent uveitis, and abortion in horses.
I have not read anything about the use of nematodes for control of fleas, though there has been some foreign research on the effect of one specie on fleas. What specie of nematode are you using and what is the product name and who manufactures the product?
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2001 - 9:42 am:
Sally - Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're the first equine person I've heard from that bit the bullet & went the poison route to control a rat problem.
Like I mentioned before, while I'm not particularly thrilled to go that way, I believe that I have truly paid my dues to Mother Nature over the years, having always been a steadfast "organically inclined" human being. But this has gone way beyond anyone's tolerance level - & that's with keeping all my grain products inside the house!! Speaking of which, we now believe that the little b*****ds are starting to move into our walk-out basement, & I'm certainly not about to let my house burn down around me when they start chewing wiring, etc., due to principle. Joan of Arc I ain't!! "Assault", here I come!
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2001 - 10:12 am:
Dr. O
I know you didn't ask me - but - The product I used was Bio-Halt Yard Spray by Farnam. Before we sprayed with it the fleas were a nightmare problem. We have not had one flea in the past 6 years. Since we didn't spray the entire yard I had doubts that it would do much good - 4.5 acres. The dogs have access to the whole area. This - without one DrOp of poison - is astounding.
Cheryl K.
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2001 - 10:15 am:
Bonita, you're welcome. I did the same as you and moved my grain into the house. I never got rats in the house but I sure got mice. So, I used the same method. To tell you the truth, I felt sorry for the mice and rats. I mean it's not their fault they were born rodents. BUT, when it gets to the point that your barn is being undermined or your horses could break a leg in their own stalls, not to mention that the little & not so little critters carry disease, fleas, mites and lice, it's time to go for the Big Guns.
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2001 - 2:15 pm:
Complete agreement here Sally - & I even used to have both fancy mice & rats as pets! When it begins to reach the science fiction/horror movie level though, something besides me has got to give.
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 3:06 am:
I put Storm (warfarin based rat poison) into 3 ft long, 3 inch diameter plastic drainpipe sections laid down horizontally in order to stop the cats etc. being able to eat the rats directly. I make sure it only goes where there is no water/runoff so that the bait can't dissolve and affect anything other than the rats. We live on an old property just above a stream where there was always a rat problem.
I think it's very important to understand their ways. You must start baiting in July/August to stop the annual invasion. Keep replacing bait until nothing is taking it any more.
Sorry, but having refloored my house once due to rat tunnelling I don't believe in messing about. I do believe in trying to ensure that only the rats get killed. OK, a few mice also probably get killed, sorry about that chaps but if you stay out of the house and eat all the nice stuff in the garden you'll be fine...
All the best
Imogen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 6:23 am:
Cheryl, does it say what is in the Bio-Halt?
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 7:55 am:
Dr. O
It has been 6 years since we used the Bio Halt - I'll have to get hold of Farnam and ask - Will get back to you as soon as I receive an answer.
Cheryl K
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 8:21 am:
Okay, okay I have been out voted. I guess that's what we're here for, to voice our opinions on things.
I am stunned that people have such a bad problem with these things. I thought this was a few mice in the barn. Is this really normal? I have NEVER known anyone to have problems like this. I see one or two and go into action. The same with friends. Horses being bit on the legs? Rats eating through concrete floors? Rats in the house? Good Lord! Forgive my ignorance, but if they were that bad I'd do anything just short of burning the place to the foundation. I had no clue we were talking about that kind of infestation. This is like a horror movie.
Sounds like you need professional help. Call out the Marines. Try grenades, mortars, cannons or stop sticks around the house! Whatever it takes to get rid of that kind of mess. Don't let them get in the house!! Heck, I'll even come help spread the rat poison. This is unbelievable. I have learned something new today. Gasp! Please keep us posted and let us know how you are doing in the war against rats!
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 9:04 am:
Afraid I'm another poisoner- we were infested last fall, to the point they'd face me. Unfortunately my Scottie could only catch the ones on the ground and the cats were having nothing to do with rats. My feed was secure but the brazen things would steal from the horse's feed buckets! I tried different kinds of traps and bait with absolutely no luck. I was worried about accidentally getting the cats or other animals but my vet said the same as DrO - not much risk. In fact, my son's riding instructor told me that a few years ago one of her horses ate a PACKAGE of rat poison with no ill effects. Has to do with the size of the critter & amount of dosage. The rat poison was quick and accurate - and I haven't seen them back in almost a year - moved on to safer climes, I assume.
Sharon
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 9:07 am:
This has been an entertaining thread :-))
First off, we had a rat party at our place about a year ago. They were chewing on the horses' chestnuts and hooves (yes, nice one). One horse was kind enough to help us with the problem and we usually had to pick out dead rats from his hooves in the mornings...the others seemed more complacent. We tried the poison route, and although we got a few of them..it wasn't enough. I got this nifty idea from a friend and I must say it worked like a charm. Get a huge drum and cover it with thick plastic, let the plastic sag in the middle and put tons of rat goodies (grain, cheese, ham etc) on the plastic, so it all slides to the middle sag. Leave and top it up daily...make sure rats are feasting and give them acess to rat feast (little rope ladder or something). Then after about a week when you realise that this is now their preferred fast food joint, cut a slit in the plastic. Drum is filled with water. Rats come to eat, rats slide to middle of plastic and fall through slit and DrOwn. I know this sounds simple, but the first day I had about thirty DrOwned rats in there...and somehow the news spread through rat land. Haven't had an infestation since.
Good Luck with your rat woes.
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 9:41 am:
LOL - you guys are too much!!!
Yes, Cathie, it IS really bad. Believe me, if we were just talking about a few mice, I really wouldn't be that concerned. I even rescue those little critters alive & show them the door. Many fall by the predations of my neighbors cats who patrol my barn for me (but they are NOT interested in tackling rats!). I'm talking about rats that are literally the size of possums tunneling thru my stalls (thank God we haven't put permanent flooring in yet!) & somehow getting into my cellar. A few little mice don't concern me.
And Sandra - you should definitely look into employment as a plot/scriptwriter for the horror genre. You'd be GREAT (I just HAD to forward your method to my husband at work to enjoy reading over his coffee!)
Anyhow, plan to pop out & pick up some of that Purina Assault stuff this week & will certainly keep you interested folks apprised of the death toll.
Best "rat"gards,
Bonnie
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 11:19 am:
This has gotten to be "rat-diculous"!!  WAY TO GO SANDRA!! Now that's thinking folks. Way to use your noodle. I love it, good for you. I hope Dr. O gives you the "idea of the month" award. You go Girl!
I am falling on the floor about the dog-gone things eating hooves and chestnuts...you have got to be kidding me. Come on you guys. I just know you are pulling my leg. Surely they don't get THAT bad - please tell me you are kidding or I'm going to sit in the barn with a 22 and take care of them the "old fashion way".
NEWS FLASH: Rocky my Maine Coon farm cat just brought home the biggest RAT I have ever seen! GROSS! They harvested the cotton field across the street so the hunting must be good. The hawks are circling too. Congratulations to Rocky for being a fabulous farm cat. I'll ship him to you for Hunting Season. "He ain't afraid of no rat." My husband the "gift remover", was completely DISGUSTED! He said, yes, it was a real RAT. I had to make sure before I told you guys. ONE FOR ROCKY! I hope it motivates my other two guys to be out hunting. This has been too much fun!!
Happy HUNTING!
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 11:34 am:
Oh sorry, I forgot the BN question Dr. O. I bought it off the Internet from a place called "The Bug Store" along with a bag full of Lady Bugs and Praying Mantis egg case. It all worked really cool. I saw the baby Praying Mantis hatch too. I had them all over the place. I don't know what "brand" they were. This has been four or five years ago. I tried to go back to the place and I either couldn't find it or it's changed names. Check out the other two places I referenced above. It really worked great. NO FLEAS OR MOLES!
Cathie =^..^=
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 12:07 pm:
"Rat"diculous is right! I now have a bunch of cats sitting here in the kitchen staring at the wall listening to some scritchy/scratchy sounds inside it. ARRGGHHH!!! Does Rocky do lecture tours on rat-catching Cathie??
I'm too busy today - but tomorrow the "hemlock" blocks get purchased & put out!!
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Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2001 - 12:26 pm:
Bonnie,
For a P.S. on the poison. The rats usually carry the poison back to their holes where they die. So, you can't tell by the body count how many are actually being killed. You have to keep the poison out at least until you can see they are no longer eating it and it probably wouldn't hurt to leave it out alot longer, especially if you don't know the source of where the rats are coming from.
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Debbien
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 19, 2003 - 12:03 pm:
I know this is an old discussion, but here's my experience: I too, was afraid of poision for all of the above reasons. Well, traps and cats didn't do the job. Eventually, my barn was so full of rats that I when I cleaned stalls in the evening I could see them in every corner watching, and soon they no longer waited in the corners for me to leave. They became so accustomed to my presence that one evening a rat literally ran up to me and put his front feet on my leg (I was wearing shorts, Eeeek!!) then turned and headed off in another direction. That was enough for me, not to mention a mysterious illness that one of our horses contracted, the vets at the hospital sited "Possible Environmental Contamination" I am sure it was from the rats. So, if you feel sorry for those nasty little critters, get over it. Poison is the only real remedy in my book.
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Parfait
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 19, 2003 - 2:49 pm:
Deborah,
I've been there. I took a year to do all the nice and humane things and then I had a traumatic enough experience to finally bring out the poison. Withing 2 weeks the rats just disappeared. The poison was stuffed in a stack of hay in the corner and when the hay guys delivered again, they threw the bars back into the stack, which my Aussie found. He fortunately wrestled all morning with his buddy dog and vomited the poison up (but they don't often do this) so I was able to get him on Vitamin K immediately and save his dear little life.
I was told to put the bars in a PVC pipe and wire the pipe to the wall. This is what I've done. I still use the poison. The rats here are as big as weasels (we have Norways). One fought my Aussie in the aisle. I heard all this screaching and called my dog off...The rat had a really shiny coat, I'll say that. Good luck. It's us against them.
Kerry
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 19, 2003 - 3:14 pm:
As I've said previously on this post: Purina Assault!!!!
Was able to discontinue my personal rodent assault for most of this past summer, but once autumn set in, I had the obnoxious beasts running over my feet & digging their leg-breaking tunnels all over again.
Pulled out my trusty canisters of Assault discs & voila - gone!! What I do to keep the poison away from friendly fauna is to DrOp the discs through the pallet slats in the feed room. All of my feed cans, hay, & straw are stacked on wooden pallets over heavy-duty vinyl tarps (for a moisture barrier). I sweep out as much loose extra stuff as possible, DrOp the discs through, & then stack as usual. This has worked out best for me, as when I tried constructing a "bait station", the varmints would take the discs out & I would find them in the aisle, etc. It seems to be too much trouble to do that when they're underneath the pallets.
Good luck guys, regardless of what you use. But if you're looking for a recommendation, "Assault" really does the job, & you don't need to use a lot, or even use it all the time.
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Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 19, 2003 - 9:12 pm:
we used to have a horrible rat problem too.. i'd see them at night, and hear them rummaging around thru my walls (i live above the barn)...first we got a little jack russel terrier dog...well, all she really did was dig a lot more holes.. sometimes getting stuck under the barn...*sigh*.. she caught less rats than my big dog, who could only get them when they came out from their holes.. (and wow! did she ever get them!)(but she was semi-feral, so not much backs her off!)..
so then we did the traps.. of course, that doesnt work!... so then we started with the poison... at first that worked, and they were only a problem in the winter anyways, so for a few years it was controlled.. but eventually they started shacking up in the barn year round.. we just used D-Con.. we'd send the little terrier to a friends, and my dog was smart enough to not go after the packets, and she LOVED killing off the little critters when they staggered out of their holes.. (she has quite a temper!)..
wel, eventually they stopped going after the D-Con, and it was getting REALLY bad...
and then...
a weasel moved in!!!!...
and within a month all the rats were gone, and havent seen one since!...(it's been about a year now)..
we didnt ask the weasel to move in, and have no idea where he is now, but it certainly was fortuitous for us!..he'd occasionally stop by and show us a kill... what a nice weasel...*LOL*.. i dont think he was domesticated, i think he was just showing us respect as a pack animal might do...
now we have a big barn cat.. he's pretty tough..
he stares down our tractor, and has lasted almost 6 seconds in spats with my dog (the terrier only lasted 3...)..
so my recommendation is to put a "help wanted" sign out for any wandering weasel to see...*LOL*.. failing that, DONT use DC0N... waste of money in the long run i think.. that "Assault" stuff sounds good...
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 19, 2003 - 10:26 pm:
Melissa,
What an entertaining post! Thanks . . . it was fun.
Holly
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Member:
Norto
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2003 - 3:22 pm:
I have a pair of hawks that live around my farm and I love to look out my window and see them sitting on my corral fence. No way am I going to poison and have the mice come staggering out of the barn where the hawks could then easily catch them. Try catching some snakes and turning them loose in your barn (or pay some neighboorhood boys to do it). I'll admit it is unnerving to reach for a brush and have a snake under it but it helps with the mice problem.
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Member:
Ldodson
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2003 - 3:41 pm:
Since I live in Southern California, we don't have a barn just a mare motel. It never gets lower that 35ish at night but we need the shade in the summer. I keep my feed in a big shed. Rats haven't been a problem, mostly field mice, HOWEVER, I have a pair of beautiful king snakes that have taken up residence under my shed. Every once in a while I will open up and see one of the little fatties slowly slither out of my way. They are the BEST at rodent control AND they have the added attraction of killing rattlers. The WORST problem I have is the ground squirrels undermining the ground around here. Anybody got a way to get rid of those little boogers without poison? Linda Davis
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2003 - 7:30 pm:
Snakes certainly do a great job, but I'm getting too old for the kind of surprises they bring....like when I leaned over to flick on the lights and found myself eyeball to eyeball with a four foot black snake. What I need to know is, "Where can I get me a weasel?"
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2003 - 8:25 am:
Whoa lets back up here. I am afraid when the great fecundity of rodents when put up against the slow metabolism of snakes (thus they eat infrequently) the result is that it is not long before the rats are eating the snakes. It would take a lot of them to make a dent.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2003 - 8:17 pm:
Oh! I see - So maybe we should try putting out Regumate instead of rat bait? Unless you think that it might result in a barn overrun with rats that have PMS.
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Gailking
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2004 - 12:53 pm:
I found a non-toxic product to kill rats and ground squirrels. It is called Rode-trol and it is a pelleted bait that contains something to upset the water uptake balance in these varmints which causes them to go into a coma and die (peacefully they say!). Anyway, it is not toxic to pets, kids, horses or even tree squirrels, birds, etc. We just bought 80 acres that is covered with ground squirrel burrows which leave large holes to break a horse's leg and invites rattlesnakes to live in the holes. Last weekend I set out 6 pounds of bait. I will let you know if I can see any results. There is no structure on the property yet, so we don't have rats. I just hope this stuff works. Gail
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 9, 2004 - 7:57 am:
What is the active ingredient Gail?
DrO
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 10, 2004 - 6:35 am:
An aside on the rat debate. You can get Weil's disease from rats. Our MFH and huntsman who is a farmer and should know better got it this year and he was very sick (in hospital) for well over a month. When dealing with rat stuff (eg not just putting out bait but cleaning up after them etc.) do please use rubber gloves.
It's now June. Rat patrol (first time to put out bait) here in the northern hemisphere is about another 4 weeks so decide what you're going to do and get your stocks of whatever sorted.
Also I know some people don't use warfarin any more due to warfarin resistant rats but there is a positive aspect to it which is that if your pet cat, dog, weasel etc. is stupid enough to eat a dead poisoned rat, it can be given an antidote if you notice in time...
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 10, 2004 - 7:34 pm:
Well,
We have a lot of children visiting our petting zoo, therefore there is no room for any kind of poison. We have 5 cats and 7 dogs in the yard and the odd visiting boa, but, no mice at all.
I guess Speedy Gonzalez moved to your barns 
No seriously it works! It is amazing how nature knows best, at the ranch we have no rats fleas nor ticks but lots of birds, lizards iguanas, even bats, (no mosquitos) etc.
At home however I give Invermectine once a month to the dogs or we get troops of ticks marching into the house from every window and door I also have six cats at home so, no mice, rouches, or any bug!
Love your horses,
Liliana
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 7:38 am:
My cats love catching bats. Unfortunately what they really like is catching them, taking their wings off and then bring them as mauled but still wriggling live presents... that's when I start to wonder about nature knowing best... let's hope your cats never find out what "fun" bats can be.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2004 - 8:45 am:
Oh goodness Imogen! I'm sure I'm not the only one here who hopes beyond hope that your cats are all vaccinated against rabies!
The cat hasn't been born yet that is quick enough to catch a healthy bat. Any bats your cats are snagging have got to be ill with something.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 15, 2004 - 6:57 am:
Hi Bonita
We're rabies free. It helps to live on an island in the middle of the Atlantic with a quarantine regime for cats and dogs... and yes, my cat can catch bats. The bats nest in some ruined outbuildings belonging to a neighbour that adjoin our yard and they swoop through in the evenings. My black cat (which is also good at dealing death to rats) just sits on a wall and swipes them out of the air. Not as easy as birds, but more fun, he thinks. Maybe our bats are a different (slower) species or perhaps it's because he's after them when they're just waking up for a night's hunting. I'm just hoping the nesting swallows manage to escape him this year!
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 15, 2004 - 9:55 am:
Wow - it's a shame you can't get a picture of that - I'd LOVE to see a cat picking bats out of the air (poor little bats) - LOL!
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 4:07 pm:
Dr. O,
I read the package when I bought the Rodetrol and it did not list the ingredients!! I kept the box but gave it to a friend. I will be back on that property in a few days and they sell the stuff in a local tack store. I will check again, but I don't know if they have to list the ingredients. I also checked on the web and again they do not say what is in it. I am curious also. I am going to close the holes I put bait in to see if it reduced the population of ground squirrels.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 19, 2004 - 9:15 am:
I would not use a product where I did not know the ingredients.
DrO
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 19, 2004 - 10:18 am:
I agree with Dr. O. Heaven forbid someone accidentally ingested it - what would you tell Poison Control?
In addition, I'm pretty sure that EVERYTHING sold today in the U.S., particularly foodstuff & chemical products, has to - by law - have a "complete" list of ingredients, & they must be listed in order of quantity.
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 19, 2004 - 10:32 pm:
Check here for the ingredients in Rode-trol....CORN COB!!! https://www.rodetrol.com/HTML/rodetrol_R_specimen.html
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 19, 2004 - 10:44 pm:
...and for Dr. O: I think this is the patent application..a bit more detail/data :-)
https://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fneta html%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=rodenticide&s2=corn &OS=rodenticide+AND+corn&RS=rodenticide+AND+corn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 7:45 am:
Thanks for the references Christine. Checking the scientific literature I cannot find any support for the claims made in the Rode-trol statements about killer cellulose in corn or corn cobs or corn oil. I do see a contradicition in their claims. In the active ingredients they list corn oil while in the description they call it a cellulostic material, implying a complex carbohydrate (fiberous) active ingredient.
DrO
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2004 - 8:51 am:
Corn? Very doubtful. While I do know that corn derivatives are used in organic weed suppression products, I can't see it putting rodents into tiny little comas - lol! Let's face it, corn (including the cob) is probably ingested 24/7 by a lot of farm rats/mice. If they were DrOpping into comas, we'd probably of heard about it long before now, & the FDA would be slapping warnings on corn for humans as well.
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2004 - 8:11 pm:
Sorry...now you brought out the "scientist" in me.....I just dug through the patent again and also read some rat and corn info more carefully....I think I know now what they did....first they took the cellulose stuff and force fed it to rats at about 5 g/rat, while giving them regular lab rat chow and determined that this stuff is "safe"....then, as it appears, although the exact text is a bit "fishy"....all the rats in the efficacy study got was cellulose and molassess to eat, as well as unlimited access to water...the reason why I think this is what happened is that, accorging to a reputable handbook on care of laboratory animals (Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals, Fourth Revised Edition, 1995 (1995)
Institute for Laboratory Animal Research (ILAR)), rats have an energy requirement of about 114 kcal/kg BW for maintenance and will eat to meet this requirement. Furthermore, the moment you take away even just ONE essential amino acid, they reduce their feed intake...guess what, getting to live on "corn cellulose" is like expecting someone to live off styrofoam packing chips.....
What is says in the patent is:
"[0043] Clinical observations included dehydration, lethargy, diarrhoea, tremors, weight loss, hunching and soft light stool. ......
Without wishing to be bound by theory, it is believed that rats and mice lose body fat and adipose tissue by excretion in the faeces and urine after eating the above cellulosic material, and eventually starve to death.".....DUH!!!!
Except that in our barns they are certainly "free-range rats", rather than cage rats and will certainly find tastier morsels to eat (like grain in horse poop...YUM!) than sticking to corn-cob pellets.....
Now thinking this claim through...this is actually REALLY FUNNY!!!...I guess to benefit from this bait, you need to catch the rats, lock them up and FEED them cellulose pellets...TO STARVE THEM!!! (lol!!!!!!!)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 7:53 am:
Most excellent Christine and a real lesson in monitoring product claims.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 - 10:11 pm:
What a great thread! Very intertaining...and informative. We don't have rats, but do have mice, moles, voles, gophers, ground squirels, "chiselers" (which I think are a type of ground squirel) and prairie dogs. We can't touch the prairie dogs-they are a protected species here in S. Utah, (don't ask me why; there are tons of them.)
When we first moved here the mice were especially bad, in the house under the sinks and in drawers, and little mice nests under the shavings in all the stall corners.
Luckily, we also have several cats and a dog. Two of the cats are great hunters and proudly bring me presents of(usually) dead mice and gophers. The dog is also pretty good at catching things. His favorite time of year is when we first turn on the irragation lines. He positions himself at the end of each line as it comes on and catches the ground squirels and chiselers as they come rushing out ahead of the water. (I guess the lines are a good, warm place to hide.)
A local remedy for the ground squirels and even prairie dogs is to chew bubble gum and then stick it at the opening of their holes. People also back their tractors up close to a hole and attach a hose or laundry dryer vent hose to the tail pipe with the other end down in the hole. You have to use this tactic at night, however, when no one will see you. I haven't tried either of these methods myself, but rely on the animals, who do an amazingly good job. I have heard of some people using big vacuums and sucking up the prairie dogs and selling them to Japan as pets!
The other animal we have is pack rats, which are very big and build huge nests under buildings, tree roots, etc. When we've had them as tenants, things like hoof picks, rubber curry combs, and anything shiney, would keep disappearing with everyone accusing each other of loosing them. When we finally looked in the pack rat's nest, there were all the things we were missing, plus bottle caps, bones, dog cookies, a pair of sissors, an earring, and a few other interesting items!
A thought about the weasels: if you can't entice some weasels to move in, how about some ferrets? They are great hunters and very fierce fighters.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Friday, Jul 2, 2004 - 11:06 am:
Today I was treated to the spectacle of a huge fat grey rat pounding diagonally across our arena, hotly pursued by a leaping slinky ferret (or weasel? - it was gingery-brown), which was in turn being chased enthusiastically by one of the dogs. At last - ferrets to the rescue!
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