|
|
Discussion on Frequency of Vaccination for WNV in endemic area
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Brock
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003 - 1:10 pm:
Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere on the site but can't find it. We vaccinated both our horses for West Nile in February and boosted March 15. Our vet clinic was recommending administering the vaccine at this time to be ready for spring infestation of mosquitoes. They have since recieved further info from the company that the vaccination and booster should have been given LATER in the spring in order for it to remain effective well into the Fall (i.e., September). We have VERY cold winters and mosquitoes are a non-issue after October. The vet is now recommending ANOTHER shot because they are now told the vaccine is good for only 4 months (end of July). I am a little hesitant to give them another shot especially if it is not necessary. By the way, the mosquitoes are not bad here at all, although there have been 3 dead crows reported that tested positive for the virus. Question: What research has been done on the length of time this vaccine and booster is effective? Should I give them another shot in early August to carry them through to the end of September?
|
Member:
Tangoh
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003 - 1:47 pm:
Hi Pam,
Our vet also suggested we could administer a booster shot end of June or early July, but did not necessarily advise it, so we didn't. We have been given, like you, varying stories from efficacy lasting only 4 months to efficacy likely lasting up to one year. According to others 'in the know', we were advised that the vaccine should and probably will protect for one year, so we made the decision not to boost again, probably because, like you say, the mosquitos are not really an issue during this heatwave of a summer we're having anyway, although they are more of a problem just around sunset. It seems though that in our area and yours, the numbers of the type of mosquito carrying the virus is very low. It seems that South of the Yellowhead and the further south you go, the higher the numbers of this type of mosquito.
There has been one horse that tested positive I believe, but it is further south of both you and I. Most people in our area opted not to give a 3rd booster.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003 - 9:23 am:
I too have seen the 4 month recommendation in some lay publications. I have not heard of any reasons that our current vaccine recommendations in the article on WNV should not be followed, see Equine Diseases » Nervous System » West Nile Virus.
DrO
|
Member:
Brock
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003 - 12:09 pm:
Thanks for the input. I have decided NOT to boost again this year (I'll spend the $30 on a jug of "WIPE" and boost them again in early Spring.
|
Member:
Tangoh
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003 - 12:39 pm:
Hi Pam,
I think that's probably a good decision. Thank goodness Wipe is back on the shelves. It was discontinued here for awhile because of its 'toxic' contents and you still can't get it in some stores who won't carry it anymore, but it's the only thing that really works on our horses. I have a tip for you to make it last longer. We keep a rag fairly well lubricated with it in a ziplock bag and you can use this rag for a lot of applications before you need to add more Wipe - as you've noticed - it's certainly not cheap. I've also noticed that it seems to work better if you wipe it on 'against the grain', and apply it just before dusk. There doesn't seem to be a need for it during the heat of the day.
|
Member:
Brock
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003 - 12:53 pm:
Yes, I agree Sherri that WIPE is very effective and as far as its toxicity, aren't they all!! I apply it with a piece of shamois (sp?) that I keep in a ziplock. The shamois holds the moisture, too. I also apply "against the grain" and focus mostly on the legs. The mosquitoes aren't bad down here but the flies are brutal.
|
Member:
Tangoh
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2003 - 1:07 pm:
I guess us Saskatchewan girls think alike. 
And you're right, the black flies are brutal. And what about those grasshoppers. Thank goodness they don't bite because up here they're as big as buses. I swear I almost got whiplash from one that hit the windshield last night!! 
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2003 - 8:34 am:
Here's something interesting to add to this line of thought: Why do we vaccinate even yearly? I read somewheres that we should question this. Human babies get a shot, or maybe a couple of boosters, then that's it. But in the animal world, we are sposed to vaccinate yearly, or even more. Why is this so?? At one time rabies was a yearly shot for dogs, now it's one, then one the next yr, then 3 yrs you give a booster. I did give one WNV, then started hearing all the bad press about it, and won't give it again. I can't prove it, but I swear our oldest mare (18) isn't the same after it. Nothing specific, just she's "Off". I for one am re-thinking my yearly vaccinations. Our horses don't go to shows, so for us we can elimate some things. Yes, if horses were DrOpping dead all around from WNV or something else, I would weigh the odds differently. No disrespect here to Dr. O,  but sometimes with SOME vets, and Drs.,(Doctors don't make money if people stay healthy) methinks money matters more than what's needed for the "big picture". And why wasn't Wipe on the shelves??? Huh?? missed that!!! Personally, I think the answer is to keep your horses in during bug attacks, and let them out when the bugs aren't out!!!
|
Member:
Goolsby
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2003 - 12:33 pm:
Angie
Im glad you brought up that point. I would like to know as well. I have also been hearing bad press concerning WNV and may folks rethinking the vaccinations. My 3 horses are on 20 acre pasture, not shown and seldom exposed to other horses. I dont vac. yearly. I gave them WNV last year for the first time. One mare was pregnant at the time. First the vet was reluctant, but decided to give it to her anyway. He reccomended a booster after one month then yearly (Im in Middle Tennessee). I dont know if I will get it again, especially to my colt. Im almost more afraid of the vaccine than the virus.
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2003 - 1:07 pm:
Actually, many people do get flu shots every year. I would have to guess that in studies, it has been found that the level of antibodies manufactured by the horse in response to the vaccine DrOp to 0 or an ineffective level by a certain time.
|
Member:
Tangoh
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2003 - 1:16 pm:
Personally, and this is just my hopefully 'educated' opinion, I am totally confident that the WNV vaccine is safe and efficacious. Whether or not we are needling our horses too often with vaccines that aren't proven is always a question, because there is a certain risk to both horse AND human just with the procedure of vaccinating in itself. Some vaccines, I believe are not worth even that minimal risk or the extra $, the influenza vaccine for instance as there just isn't enough data to prove it's worth. Whether or not I should be vaccinating for EEE and WEE is also controversial, but then I think you have to look at the region you live in and make your decision based on recent cases seen. However, I did vaccinate for EEE and WEE this year and will likely continue. However, when it comes to vaccinating for tetanus (which is a no-brainer) and an emerging disease like WNV, I believe the vaccine to be safe, and I would rather spend the bucks and err on the side of safety. I do believe that the vaccine provides at least reasonable protection if it's adminstered properly and at proper intervals. Proper management is important, but as far as putting the horses in when the mosquitos are at their worst, that isn't always possible, so, we vaccinate. I'd rather spend the $27.50/dose that it costs us here than risk putting down a $3500 horse that has contracted this possibly fatal virus. As for side effects of the vaccine - it's a killed vaccine. Of all the horses vaccinated in Canada this year, I don't think any unusual side effects other than normal and minor vaccination reactions from the vaccine were reported. That, I guess does not mean there weren't any, but I guess what I'm saying is that any given horse can have any given type of reaction to almost anything, as can a person, so there is always somewhat of a risk, but generally speaking, I can't say 100% certain that it is completely efficacious, but I do believe 100% that this killed vaccine is perfectly safe.
|
Member:
Mwebster
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2003 - 1:26 pm:
I for one am not hearing bad press about the WNV vaccine. We live in an endemic area (MA), so everyone here gives the vaccine. No one I know -- and we're talking hundreds of horse owners around here -- has heard of a single problem with the vaccine, and bad news travels quickly here. Our 3 horses all get WNV boosters, and they are ages 9, 22, and 25. The published reports I've read continue to show a high degree of safety and a high degree of protection.
Of course, if you don't have WNV in your area, there's no reason to vaccinate. But if WNV is endemic in your area, and you choose not to vaccinate, you are playing the odds. The odds of your horse becoming clinically ill are actually pretty low. It's just that if your horse does get sick, you face a high mortality rate, and some big vet bills and a long recuperation.
Re your horses not going to shows or coming into contact with other horses, and perhaps a reduced need for vaccinations: most of the vaccinations are for non-horse to horse infection (WNV, EEE, WEE, VEE, probably most cases of rabies, etc.). So aside from strangles, PHF, and the flu, it's kind of irrelevant whether your horses travel and meet strange horses or not.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 31, 2003 - 6:49 pm:
Hello All,
Angie, we have often discussed are we vaccinating our horses too much, check other discussions in the vaccine forum. You must look at each vaccine indiviually as they differ in their efficacy and length of protection. What is known about length of protection for each equine vaccine and efficacy is covered in the article on vaccines and in the articles on each particular disease. In general however, unlike many human and some dog and cat vaccines, we do not have any equine vaccines that develop long lasting protection.
As to how often you should vaccinate, or whether to vaccinate at all, depends not only on the vaccine characteristics, but the prevalence of the disease in your area, and your goals. We discuss this too in the article on vaccines but a little personal observation might help. Thinking back over the past 20 years I can think of 5 deaths I was a personal witness to associated with a lack of proper vaccination: 1 rabies and 4 tetanus cases. The rabies case resulted in 6 humans having been treated. I quess the question is how many would have died if none were vaccinated. I can say no horse that I have ever known on a regular vaccination program died of a disease he was vaccinated for. Neither have we ever had any reaction worse than a sore neck with vaccination. Vaccines are like insurance policies, they probably cost more than they save (if you are looking over the whole population of horses) but do provide a significant amount of protection against the off chance you are the unlucky one.
The lay press is a unreliable place to get medical information. The WNV vaccine, while not 100% safe, is very safe despite the inaccurate reports you read. We gave nearly a thousand doses including vaccinating many pregnant mares and did not have a severe reaction that we are aware of. The vaccine certainly caused less problems than the 14,000 documented cases and thousands of deaths due to WNV in equines last year.
DrO
|
Member:
Thebridl
|
Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2003 - 3:26 pm:
The WNV vaccine is at best in experimental stages. I have a viral medicine (homepathic)that I will give to any of my horses if they come down with any viral symptoms. There have been a variety of reactions to the vaccine here in Ontario, with some horses still not recuperated from the vaccine! When they develop a WNVaccine for people, I'll certainly consider vaccinating my horses. There's no guarantees about this vaccine, andreports from equine University researchers in this province fail to assure me that it is safe, effective insurance!
Kelly
|
Member:
Mwebster
|
Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2003 - 5:17 pm:
It's not true that this vaccine is "at best in experimental stages". The vaccine has been in use in the US for 2 full years, and millions of doses have been given. There's a huge pool of data, and the statistics (on safety, efficacy) are reassuring.
Perhaps the fact that WNV only reached Canada last summer explains why you're hearing "horror stories". New things scare people, and give rise to all sorts of false rumors, which lessen over time as people become more informed. That certainly happened in the US.
As for homeopathic remedies curing a horse that's ill with anything -- let alone WNV which has about a 35% mortality rate -- well that's what I'd call experimental! There's no scientific basis, there's no proof, there are no clinical trials that would support the contention that homeopathy has any value at all, let alone studies that show homeopathy specifically cured a horse with active WNV infection!
|
Member:
Suzym
|
Posted on Friday, Aug 1, 2003 - 11:30 pm:
Melissa, you are so right! I live in Indiana, and we had many WNV cases, in both horses and humans, last year. Everyone is getting the vaccinations, and neither of my personal vets have seen any adverse reactions.
Kelly, this vaccine was given a conditional license in the US last year, and, after challenge studies were completed by Ft. Dodge, it was awarded full license by the FDA this year.
Last year my gelding was at the Purdue large animal hospital, and there was a mare with WNV in his "ward." If you could have seen her, you would not risk your horse with a homeopathic remedy, believe me. She didn't make it, but, considering the shape she was in, it was a blessing. 
|
Member:
Tangoh
|
Posted on Saturday, Aug 2, 2003 - 2:32 am:
The vaccine is not 'experimental' at best. There have been no horror stories in the western provinces of Canada, Kelly. Everyone is vaccinating for WNV and the disease arrived here only last year. I work at a research facility and the equine research community here does have data, and it's available for anyone to see. Have you actually asked for any data? If your equine researchers in Ontario can't produce it for you, then I think you have a local problem.
As for the homeopathic route, I agree entirely with Melissa. Where's the scientific data or the proof? I'll put my $$ into something that has been scientifically challenged.
|
Member:
Roboski
|
Posted on Saturday, Aug 2, 2003 - 9:41 am:
Melissa.
Love reading your posts; you have a level-headed and pleasant approach to people & subjects. And it doesn't hurt I aways agree with you, LOL. Great minds and all that.....
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Aug 4, 2003 - 11:09 am:
Hello All,
Kelly I would be interested in any reports from University Equine Researchers that the vaccine is not safe and effective. If you will give me their names I will be glad to check into it.
Melissa, is right and it is the position of Horseadvice.com that homeopathic preparations are not effective therapy: currently there is no known physical, chemical, or biological mechanism through which these medicaitons can work.
DrO
|
Member:
Mwebster
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2003 - 3:01 pm:
Well, of course just as I claim no one I know has ever had a problem with the WNV vaccine, a neighbor tells me their buckskin had laminitis following his first shot, then foundered again 3 weeks later at the booster. I don't know whether/how a case like this makes it back to Ft. Dodge for evaluation. Their other horses are fine.
M
|
Member:
Tangoh
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 7, 2003 - 3:26 pm:
Melissa, do they really know for sure that it was the vaccination and booster that caused the laminitis and founder, or are they only assuming? It could be just purely coincidental and not related to the vaccination at all. How do you determine what is an actual reaction?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2003 - 6:34 am:
Founder would not be one of the reactions you would expect to see with a vaccination. I would suspect if that is what happended this is coincidence. However a sore neck would be a common reaction and they look almost identical, causing the horse to take short painful looking steps.
DrO
|
Member:
Mwebster
|
Posted on Friday, Aug 8, 2003 - 12:40 pm:
They told me the horse foundered, with rotation, and that the horse is only now coming sound. They blame the founder on the vaccinations, but it could of course be coincidence, as DrO points out.
M
|
Member:
Mwebster
|
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 27, 2003 - 12:30 pm:
On the subject of founder and vaccinations (in general, not WNV per se), there's an interesting article in Equus this month about a study at Texas A&M that was begun in response to reports of horses becoming acutely lame within 24hrs of a vaccination. 7 horses with chronic founder and 7 normal horses were given injections. All 7 horses with chronic founder showed hypersensitivity to vaccinations. Maybe my neighbor's horse was predisposed, and/or had had laminitis in the past? They hadn't had the horse long.
A friend of mine who breeds horses told me her 3-months along mare aborted 72 hrs after a WNV shot, and her vet says one of the large vet hospitals in the US is following about 6,000 early term abortions that occurred shortly after a WNV shot.
M
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2003 - 9:28 am:
Hello Melissa,
The problem with reports like this are many. Most important is that they are heresay: we have no way to verify what actually happened and it is even difficult to follow up on what exactly was said. Perhaps second most important is that these type reports have no controls: what would have happened if no vaccine were given? No one knows.
That is not to say clinical reports are not of benefit, but their main value is in directing further research. Here are my clinical reports on these 2 subjects: - We have had at least 3 dozen chronically foundered horses in the practice that we have cared for over a number of years. We have always made it a practice to not vaccinate while painful but do regularly vaccinate while sound. I suspect that would make at least 200 instances of vaccinating chronically foundered horses. Since we typically give 6 injections a year that would make 1200 individual vaccinations of chronically foundered horses. I do not remember a single case of exacerbation of the founder immediately following the injections.
- Tests on pregnant mares and our own experience of having vaccinated dozens of pregant mares for WNV have not yet revealed any more danger than vaccinating with other products approved or generally recognized as safe for pregnant mares.
DrO
|
Member:
Mwebster
|
Posted on Thursday, Aug 28, 2003 - 2:55 pm:
Oops! Me of all people falling into the anecdotes, rumors, etc. trap! Sorry!
|
|
|
