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  Discussion on Wedge shoes
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Member:
Ella

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 8:43 am:

I have a mare who was heal sore and we put her in wedge shoes. She has recently hurt herself (severe eye injury) and I would like to give her a year in the pasture for recovery. I would like to pull her shoes (partly financially and partly because I think bare feet are good for a horse) but am concerned because she has been in 2 degree wedges for over a year. Can she ever be barefoot without giving her problems in the soft tissue because her feet have gotten used to being 2 degrees higher with the shoes than they will be barefoot?

Ella :-)
Member:
Dres

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 10:03 am:

Ella, just a guess here but before you can take her out of the shoes I would take her down to level slowly with shoes on .. This would take a couple more shoeings before you could let her go barefoot..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 6:41 pm:

Yes she can be barefoot Ella but whether she should be now depends on what is the foot quality and balance like without shoes on. Study the article in the Hoof Care section on how to evaluate this. If you could provide some good photos we could help but what does your farrier say and what is his reasoning.
DrO
Member:
Ella

Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 12:05 pm:

My farrier says that he is concerned that the tendons and ligaments etc. have shortened now that she has been "lifted" for so long and that she will be sore from the stretching and strain on the soft tissue if I take off the shoes. My vet says that I just need to make sure that I can trim the foot carefully over time to increase the natural length of the heal. Blacksmith does not agree and says that the heal will be brittle and will run under as it isn't a natural length for it. I feel caught between my vet and my blacksmith. I hate making that choice as they both should know more than me!

I don't know if I can get pictures right away. She is still at the vet clinic from the eye injury and has been there several months. She had head trauma and an abscess to the eye was secondary. They are trying to save the eye. I feel kind of uncomfortable walking into the clinic and taking pictures of her feet.

Ella :-)
Member:
Frances

Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 12:32 pm:

Hi Ella - if I were in your position, I think I would hold off on changing anything, bearing in mind that your mare has quite a lot to recover from already.

My thoughts would be that it's not worth incurring any new discomfort or possible problems at this point, and I'd put the shoe-pulling on a back burner until she's had a few months at pasture - and then evaluate.

Just my humble opinion ....
Member:
Starda01

Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 8:07 pm:

Hi Ella -
Your gal is going through a lot. Hope she'll pull through and the eye can be saved.

My horse has been in a 3 degree wedge for a year, and 2 weeks ago, I pulled his shoes. My situation was that the wedge was crushing his heel and making his shoulder and back tighten up. Plus he pulled a shoe himself, a couple of months ago, and tore off a chunk of hoof wall. Because the farrier didn't have anywhere to nail the shoe, he'd wrapped it in tight in the heels so he could put a nail further back. My horse ended up wanting to get off his front feet and shifted himself to his back end and became lame in the hind legs too. So, against my vet's advice, I pulled the shoes bc I felt they were only making things worse. I expected tender feet and tendon problems as he is flat footed and underrun. But, once the shoes were off, it took about a week for the hind end lameness to go away, and his posture and movement just looked much more relaxed.
His feet are still a little tender, and he is sore in his suspensories, but overall, I'd say he was ok. My vet said I was going to cripple him, and he isn't crippled, although he will need time to and we are in no way in the clear.

I had x-rays done, with another vet, just yesterday, so I could know what to do with him, if he should stay unshod or if he needed to be shod. At this he time he said he should be shod to realign the coffin bone to a more acceptable angle. But he wasn't overly concerned about the tendons. He just said to give him time off and liniment rubs. And this horse has had tendon problems in the past.

So, just thought to put in my experience. If you're going to be turning her out anyway, then she'll have the time to accustom herself to the lowered heel.

There are some excellent sites on the internet that talk about keeping a horse barefoot.

https://www.thehorseshoof.com
www.tribeequus.com/

Good luck,
Sara
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 5:54 pm:

I pulled shoes off a horse who had similar heel issues and had been diagnosed with "navicular." His feet were deforming to the point of almost being "contracted." When the shoes were pulled, the change in angles made him sore (somewhat lame) for a couple of days, and I gave him some Bute for 2 or 3 days. He was fine after that. Getting him out of shoes and finding an excellent farrier who allowed his feet to grow larger (they had been erroneously robbed of their natural, larger size over a period of time), as well as balancing him up well (including gradually taking the heel down) have him sounder now at over 20 years of age that he has been since I bought him at 8 years of age. He was always tender-footed on hard or uneven surfaces. If walked on concrete he would be in so much discomfort he would act like he was going to fall down. Now he is even sound on concrete!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 6:19 pm:

Vicki, Ella describes a horse that was not doing well before the wedges, and is afraid if she removes the shoes she will go sore again. Your horse seemed to be the other way around.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 7:28 pm:

My guy improved GREATLY with the wedges also (lame before) -- for a while -- but then things gradually went the other way.
Member:
Ella

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 9:52 am:

Thank you all for your thoughts. I will not be changing anything quickly. I would like to be able to on the next shoeing go to 1 degree rather than 2 and work from there. I am definitely not going to hurry and will go back to 2 degrees if she seems to be having a hard time adjusting.

Thanks very much!

Ella :-)
Member:
Gailkin

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 4:02 pm:

I hate to jump in here with lots of advice, Ella, because there are many contradictory opinions based on who you talk to. I would recommend that you find a natural trimmer (not a vet or a farrier) in your area and learn more about the structure of the hoof, how blood pumps through the hoof, how wedge pads put more pressure on the coffin bone, etc. Without going into tons of detail, I have seen many formerly lame horses that were able to become sound after pulling shoes and getting a barefoot trim by an experienced trimmer, not a farrier. Long heels only pressure other areas of the hoof and underrun heels usually are from toes that are too long. Many more people are keeping their horses barefoot as I am. The barefoot trim is not hard to do, but you have to really know what you are doing and why. The more you understand about how the hoof functions, etc. the better able you will be to make an informed decision about your mare. There are many websites that are very helpful but even experienced trimmers disagree with each other as to the best barefoot trims (bars or no bars, relieving quarters, trimming of frogs, etc.). My friend and I have worked on many horses' barefoot hooves that were deformed by shoes or neglect and were lame, and they are doing great barefoot. But it is very important to know what to do about a sheared heel or laminitic hoof or underrun heel. There is a reason the hoof got into that condition. You need to correct the problem for the hoof to be able to return to soundness. So try to learn as much as you can. I hope your mare recovers from her head and eye injury and that you can save the eye. But if she loses it, I have a friend with a one-eyed horse who does really well. And another friend had a one-eyed endurance horse who won the Tevis (a 100 mile endurance race in the high Sierra mountains). So all is not lost if she loses the eye. Best wishes, Gail
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 5:02 pm:

Gail it is a misconception to consider all farriers and vets ignorant of foot physiology and all natural trimmers well informed. After all farriers have been keeping horses going sound for hundreds of years. Yes there are poorly informed farriers and vets and there are poorly informed natural trimmers, but you should not prejudge them.
DrO
Member:
Gailkin

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 4:15 pm:

DrO,
I certainly do not consider all farriers and vets ignorant of foot physiology and all natural trimmers well informed. What I do find, however, is that farriers fit horseshoes and trim the foot for shoes. The trim for barefoot is definitely not the same. After going through 6 highly recommended (and expensive) farriers I still had a horse with long toes, torn laminae and flat soles who stumbled and forged (fixed by backing the hind shoe off the toe!) And my younger horse who had never had shoes had wide flares and totally unbalanced rear feet which had become deformed by the high insides of his rear hooves. As I started to inform myself about how the hoof functions, and study and learn from a variety of people, I now do the feet myself and have healthy, round feet with attached laminae and short toes and heels. My horses travel over lots of rocky terrain and are very sure footed. Most of the equine vets here believe in horses needing shoes. I guess I disagree that farriers have been keeping horses sound for 100s of years. We seem to have more and more young horses that have navicular, ringbone or some other form of lameness. Many of these horses can be rehabed by going barefoot with a good trim. After Bowker's groundbreaking research 10 years ago, we realize that horses do not travel on their walls, but on the frog and sole and that the digital cushion is not the shock absorber we thought. Instead, the blood flowing through the cushion absorbs the shock. "The outward flex of the lateral cartilage creates a vacuum drawing blood swiftly out from under the navicular bone and into and through the network of microvessels that lace the lateral cartilage." (Equus, 280). When the foot leaves the ground the pressure subsides. Horseshoes are put on a hoof with the hoof off of the ground so the blood flow is not expanded in the hoof. Now, the hoof cannot expand to the same degree as when barefoot and the blood flow to the hoof is less. I have dissected hooves and have seen very soft, unhealthy digital cushions that are light pink with little blood flow. Bowker says sound horses have three characteristics: a large frog that makes ground contact, prominent bars that bear significant weight and a short toe. Size of hoof and breed do not seem to matter. The hoof should have 1/3 of the hoof in front of the apex (point) of the frog with 2/3s behind it. If half the foot is in front of the apex, soundness issues will likely occur. Obviously, some farriers are aware of this and trim and shoe accordingly, but I could not find any in my area so I had to start doing it myself. As I see many other horses on trails and at shows with friends, I am stunned by how many horses have been shod in what I consider to be unhealthy for the horse. We need to be more open to what constitutes a healthy hoof. Many barefoot trimmers do not agree with each other as I mentioned, so it really becomes up to the owner to become educated so that he or she can make informed decisions about horse keeping and horse health. That's why I recommended to Ella to talk to a trimmer so that she could get a different point of view about what to do about her horse's feet.
Member:
Amara

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 5:12 pm:

Gail, it seems you and i have been reading the same books... i couldnt have said it better myself! (and i mean it!)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:39 pm:

I well understand the physiology. I was at the first lecture presented by the discoverer of foot blood flow dynamics at the AAEP about the blood flow dynamics that you describe and still have those original notes. You will find a brief description on it in the trimming overview article. And the trimming principles you describe you will find in our discussions and articles on foot care and trimming, particularly the 4 pt trim. But your conclusions about shod feet have one serious flaw from my viewpoint: I personally have known thousands of older horses who have worn shoes their whole life with healthy feet.

I too prefer barefoot horses and agree that most feet are easier to keep strong and healthy when barefoot so you are preaching to the choir there. I have been writing about my own experiences with taking our own horses barefoot on these boards for over 10 years. But you have to realize that it is possible to keep feet healthy and shod because, despite all the theory in the world about how bad this is, this is a simple observable fact.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 12:45 pm:

Gail -- I have had experiences throughout the years where farrier care caused harm to my horses. Shoeing sometimes had its place, but was best used when considered a temporary situation. (One of mine has temporary rear shoes right now after sustaining a severe heel break). Simpler shoes and remedies have served better than the more complicated ideas, like special shoes and clips, etc. Some of the best farriers available now will tell you that the standard training and thinking among the majority of farriers is flawed. They will also tell you that Veterinarians do not have enough training about horse's feet, and taking extra courses as Dr. O has done is a very good idea. An equine podiatrist I have taken some clinic time with believes that on a scale of 1 to 10, a foot that remains in a shoe will never be better than a 4 in actual quality, but that the shoe raises the functioning level of the foot above the 4 rating, to perhaps 7 or 8. If an owner is unable to put in all of the time required to build strong feet the natural way, the horse may function better in, or be in need of shoes. I admire you for trimming your own horses. My current farrier wants me to learn to do some touching up between trims to keep performance at the highest level. Ability to do so also stretches out the time between trims, allowing him to help more horses. He has some customers who trim themselves most of the time with him checking and trimming on a very infrequent basis.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 9:13 am:

Vicki, if a 4 means the foot is pain free, well formed, and the horn is healthy then I would agree with him as a general idea. However as a specific evaluation on a horse by horse basis, and if we take a "0 to mean not functioning at all and a 10 being functions the best" there are situations where the 10 is represented by a shod foot. The simplest case is the situation I find myself in: my pastures are soft with either mud or and grass but we ride irregularly on graveled back roads, sometimes for 6 hours at a time.

Despite a very good hoof and natural trim and several years to get use to it, the lack of consistent work on the surface the horse is ridden on does not allow for the solar horn to toughen to the point to prevent road bruising on long hard rides in some horses. While some of our equines will hold up barefoot all the way around in this situation, most need front shoes, and a very large TWH whose feet were permanent damaged by starting life in a padded up barn needs them all the way around.

The important point is I see a trend for some, often with limited horse experience, dismiss horse shoes as a primitive and cruel art form practiced by Neanderthals that modern science has supplanted completely with other ideas. This is simply not true and runs counter to what there own eyes should be telling them: the majority of regularly ridden horses around them have shoes on and are doing fine.
DrO
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 12:03 pm:

Dr. O, That was VERY well said and I agree with you. My farrier suggests putting smooth river rock about 6" deep (3/4 - 1 1/2" in size) and a few feet wide (over landscaping cloth) in front of the barn or water tank so the horses walk through it a few times every day. Plenty of exercise is also important. He also suggests walking the horses regularly on concrete or asphalt to toughen the feet. I plan to do the rock thing, and I do spend some time on concrete and asphalt, but not nearly enough to do the job. And certainly if one takes horses out of their usual footing into a whole different area (like the transition from central Florida sand to the mountains of North Carolina or Tennessee) I would put shoes on. My farrier says if I rode my horse all the way on that journey, from Florida to the mountains barefoot, that by the time we got to our destination the horses feet would be tough enough to not need shoes in the mountains.
Member:
Redback

Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 5:06 am:

Hi All: I'm well short of being knowledgeable but I'll share my swedge story. My pacing mare couldn't pace, cross firing, clipping ground on forward stroke and twisting on landing. She went to the trainer ended up sore 'unspecified whirlbone lameness' went to vets had 22 x-rays at one stage, went the paddock, went back to the trainer and same happened again. The third time I had enough and got her put onto a treadmill and high speed video. The video was amazing and the farrier made up some very full swedge shoes and put her back on the treadmill. She was now landing flat. She went back to training and a month down the track the weight of the shoes was too much so we went to penny weight trailers. At this point she had some trials and the trainer felt she wasn't competitive to win races. So I asked him as an experiment to try normal shoes on her (Her rear feet had the shoes). Her gate speed up and improved again. I was led to believe that she is was needing these shoes due to some sort of conformation error. It turns out she just didn't know how to move her feet. That sounds crazy. During this process she did have stages of slight soreness, but I treated them with a magnetic leg wrap, my infrasound machine and comfrey cream. She got through without any injury.
Obviously every horse is different and most shoeing will be done to remedy an injury or problem. I would feel that the horse with a little care will adjust its muscles and tendons to match changing angles. The biggest issue is to make sure that your horse is landing correctly , if it's not doing that it will defintly end up sore.
Postscript: My mare is actually with another trainer now and we are looking for a race start in the next ten days as she has been trailing well.
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 12:39 pm:

I agree with Dr. O here. I keep seeing posts like this that recommend "natural trimmers" over "farriers" and that make blanket statements about barefoot always being better than shod. Hopefully, this is a short-lived fad because it's not a black and white thing and I'm seeing a lot of horses suffer because of it.

Deciding whether a horse should/can go barefoot depends on the individual horse, how they're used, how much they're used, conformation, genetic quality of foot, injuries/issues, etc. And, the distinction between a "natural trimmer" and a "farrier" is false, in my opinion. A good farrier can do both shod and barefoot horses. I see it all the time and the horses are fine and comfortable, with good feet.

The more important determination is finding an experienced, knowledgeable professional who knows how to produce a good balanced foot--barefoot or shod--and knows when to recommend each, taking into account the individual horse. These professionals exist--in fact, the good ones keep a full book of business fixing the feet of horses that have been messed up by well-meaning, but incompetent, trimmers/farriers. Forget the labels and find a competent experienced pro.
Member:
Gailkin

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 4:33 pm:

Dr O,
I only included a brief statement about Dr. Bowker's work for those reading my post who might not know what I was talking about. I certainly know you are well versed in hoof physiology and that some of your horses are barefoot. I had read your article on the 4-point trim but found it to be lacking in specifics that I could understand. I read several other books and went to many websites and watched TV shows gathering some insights for my own trimming. Finally, I was able to attend several different trimmer training sessions. As I said, they do not all agree on the method, but have the same goals in mind. Even after two years barefoot, I was still having some ouchyness in my older horse in very rocky, long ride situations. After training classes and having two trimmers out, I still didn't have the answers. The solution for me was in relieving the area in the seat of corn between the bar and the sole by about 1/16th of an inch and getting rid of the over grown bars which had flopped and pooled onto the sole and were causing pressure and discomfort. Now my older guy is doing great and is finally getting more of a concave sole and does fine on long rides. I agree that horsekeeping is a problem. Many trimmers recommend putting gravel in the muddy areas as Vicki suggested to keep the surfaces one rides on similar to the ones where they are kept. The purpose of my post was to encourage horse owners to get to know more about their horses' hooves both in confirmation and function. As for the distinction between a farrier and natural trimmer, most trimmers I know were farriers earlier in their careers. I can only say that for my horses, the "top" farriers did a very poor trim on my young unshod horse. His walls would crack in about 30 places the day of the trim and they did not remove flares nor balance the hoof properly. They just kept what was the way it was as if that was the natural confirmation of the horse. And as I learned more I usually had to correct some of the work that was done, so it was easier to do the trimming myself. It is tiring, but now that both my geldings are doing so well, it only takes me about 2 hours every 2-3 weeks. Some trimmers recommend relieving the quarters, but I have found that is not necessary on mine and if they are on really rocky ground the hoof will actually convex at the quarters a little according to one of the trimmers. As long as my horses coronary bands stay straight and their hoof walls have no laminitic rings and their soles have healthy frogs with no fungus and no detached laminae at the white line, I am happy and my horses are happy. I agree with Sharon that there are many unqualified people and one should find someone who is qualified. Unfortunately, that is not always so easy to do. A friend asked her farrier to do a barefoot trim as she wanted to try pulling the shoes and he trimmed her horses hooves so short that there were no nail holes left in the hooves. Needless to say, the horse suffered greatly. But now she has learned a lot about how the hooves should be trimmed and can do it herself if necessary, but prefers to have someone else do it. I never made the statement that barefoot is always better than shod. However, I keep thinking of the heat sensitive picture of a horse where it is standing on three legs and the fourth leg looks cut off at the hock. That leg is the one with the shoe on it. If shoeing causes a lack of circulation and a DrOp in body temperature in the hoof, it hard to imagine how that can be helpful to the long term health of the horse. Why is an ouchy barefoot horse suddenly sound when you put shoes on it. Obviously, rocks still hit the sole that was previously sore, but the shoes cause a numbness in the foot. We all have to make the best decisions we can for the horses we love. I just hope more people can make informed decisions and not rely only on other people's advice no matter what their label.
Gail
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 6:22 pm:

Gail, the idea that tenderfoot horses are sound when you put shoes on them because there feet go numb is an interesting idea not supported by any information I know of nor does it jive with many observed phenomena. The theory suggests if all you did was put a shoe on horses with non-solar lameness they would improve but I have not seen such in some chronic heel pain horses or those with coffin joint arthritis. Many of these horses improve when barefooted and trimmed to ease breakover.

A much simpler explanation for why shod horses are less tenderfoot is when you elevate the sole off the ground the sole takes much less pressure. The pressure the shoe takes and then transmits up the wall would largely be the solar pressure felt by the barefoot horse. Now this pressure is moved to the wall, which is largely insensitive along the lines of force from concussion during motion.
DrO
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