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  Discussion on Need advice on weight gain
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Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:39 am:

My horse has lost some weight over the past few months so I am thinking of adding a flake or 2 of alfalfa to his diet. The local feed store has recommended a weight builder supplement, the barn owner has recommended beet pulp, and we haven’t heard from my vet yet. Can anyone tell me which would be best?

He currently has 24-hour access to fescue hay and sparse grass, and gets 2lbs of Omolene 100 sweet feed twice a day (contains not less than 10% crude protein, 4.5% fat, not more than 6% fiber).

I saw in the article something about too much calcium in alfalfa if fed with hard feed. Is that anything to worry about if we go that route? Omolene already has between .6% and .9% calcium in it. It also already has vegetable oil in it, so I’m wondering if supplementing additional corn oil (3 oz 2x daily) would be a bad idea?

Any advice appreciated!
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:14 am:

The barn owner talked to our vet and he said not to feed the alfalfa cause it has too much protein, and just recommended corn oil and maybe beet pulp. Does that sound like a good plan? I don't remember seeing beet pulp on the plumping up list, but maybe I just missed it.

What would be a good amount to give in additon to the 2 lbs of sweet feed and corn oil twice a day?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:24 am:

Oil is a great way to go . . . start out with just a 1/4 cup per feeding . . . and I don't think you'd need the beet pulp, but if you feed it, you still have to be sure that you don't get the calcium/phosphorus ratio out of balance. There have been several other discussions about feeding beet pulp and balancing it with bran, and I think you'll find extra help there.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 2:41 pm:

Another vote for corn oil, and if you need an extra boost, I've heard cocosoya oil is great.

Good luck!
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 3:59 pm:

I recently had to put about 75-100 lbs on my TB. When he got to my barn from the track, he was racing fit and on the thin side. I wasn't having much luck with the 10% fat/10% protein and corn oil regimen I put him on, so I bumped up to Triple Crown Senior Feed, a 10% fat, 14% protein feed and added Weightbuilder to that, but left off the corn oil. That did the trick. He began picking up weight noticeably faster on the Senior Feed, but the biggest difference seemed to be with the Weight Builder. I couldn't get him to eat beet pulp. I'm now feeding Equitech 10 (10 fat, 10 protein) and have switched from Weightbuilder to Horseshine (feed both my guys this supplement), and that seems to be maintaining the weight very well. This is in addition to all the good quality grass hay he can eat. Good luck! This nearly DrOve me crazy until I found the right combo.
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 4:01 pm:

Oh, and it was two heaping scoops on the feed, twice a day. (Regular barn scoops you buy at the tack/feed store.)
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 6:32 pm:

1 cup of envision think thats the name, puts weight on mine in winter. Its cheaper than weight builder etc. Its a feed suppliment that comes in large feed bags so it lasts ages. Its I think 35 % fat 12 % protein
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 7:59 pm:

Wow, thank you everyone for all the advice! Started on the corn oil today, and found out the vet actually said a little alfalfa would be okay.

If this doesn't work then I'll try some of these other great suggestions. Anyone know how long it might take to know if it's working? Don't know if this is crazy, but think I'll cut riding down to weekends only so he doesn't expend so many calories (is that stupid?).
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 9:41 pm:

cp, in my experience, it takes about 3 weeks before I can see a difference, but if you want to chart your progress, take weekly photos or use a weight tape to see the weekly gain.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 7:16 am:

Hello cp, you really do not provide enough information for the best way to supplement your diet. For instance if your grass hay is not excellent quality the diet could use a protein bump that alfalfa gives. In the article on Nutrition Overview offers recommendations for putting weight on a horse based on the existing feeding regimen.
DrO
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 7:46 am:

None of the other horses on the same hay have lost weight--that's about as scientific as I've gotten on a hay eval.

So when using the weight tape, do you take the heart girth or a girth measurement? There aren't any instructions on the tape I have and it's around a 50lb difference. I have to measure again but I think the last 'girth' measurement said he only weighs 760 lbs, he's just under 15 hands. He was closer to 850 earlier in the summer.

What about cutting down on exercise? Is that a good idea or bad idea?

I'll read the article again to see if I can figure out what's lacking.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 10:42 am:

I think it's the heart girth. I haven't read Dr. O's article lately, but my vet has me put the tape around his barrel, then move it to the top of the withers and just behind his front legs and measure there.

Take into account, that my horse is an easy keeper, but in order to keep weight off him, I need to exercise him more...so I think your thought of less riding makes some sense. Especially since he has 24 hour turnout... I think it also depends on what you do with him and how often you usually ride and how hard the work is that you ask him to do...
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 3:49 pm:

cp, if you just want to see if the horse's weight is changing, it really doesn't matter where around the girth you measure as long as you pick the same spot each time. Aileen is correct about measuring over the withers, but there is still some leeway there, so if your horse has a distinguishing feature on its main or withers or barrel, that will help you position the tape the same way each time.
Member:
Hally

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 4:03 pm:

I know this sounds obvious but have you checked teeth and do you have a good worming program going?

The articles I have read on horse nutrition say that the excess protein in Alfalfa hay will just be excreted out in the urine. Also I have fed beet pulp and 2.5 cups of oil a day to my gelding for 4 yrs and certainly there have been no side effects. As a matter of fact he looks awesome. Corn oil is just a great way to get weight on horses. Its safe and you get a lovely coat to boot!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 5:47 pm:

cp, horses differ in their requirements to maintain condition so the good condition of the others does not guarantee a nutritional profile suitable for the one losing weight. In fact the loss of weight tells us exactly that. The same article referenced above describes judging hay quality and as long as appropriate changes are made I do not see a reason for decreasing exercise.

Most weight tapes will give directions on how to use them so I would first see if there are instructions on the particular tape. Remember it is the horse's condition that is important.
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:09 pm:

The question Hally is whether the alfalfa represents excess protein or not. If the horse is consuming a diet of medium quality hay (8% protein) the total dietary protein may be deficient. For instance if the horse is eating 25 lbs dry matter a day the diet needs about 1/2 lb extra protein which is about what 2 or 3 lbs of alfalfa daily will provide. Beet pulp is marginally sufficient in protein and oil has no protein at all. Also alfalfa is rich in minerals and vitamins. If the dietary protein does exceed the amino acid requirements of the horse the excess protein is not excreted but used to make energy. A lb of protein has about the same metabolic energy (that available to the horse) as carbohydrate. Fats and oil certainly have a place in equine nutrition but are not necessarily the first thing one should reach for, the total diet needs to be considered first, for more see the nutrition overview article.
DrO
Member:
Hally

Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:15 pm:

Dr O,

I was told that if the horses urine is of a thick consistency and is very yellow, that that is the protein being flushed from the body?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 8:07 am:

No, excess dietary protein is a important source of energy for all animals and a regular part of the energy production cycle. Once processed the main metabolite is ammonia which the liver converts to urea which is excreted. The thickness and cloudiness of some horses urine is usually the calcium salts being excreted and the yellow are the plant pigments and perhaps some hormone metabolites. Both of these do increase when alfalfa is fed and you will find more on this subject at, Diseases of Horses » Urinary System » Normal Urination in Horses.
DrO
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 10:09 am:

Thanks again everyone. I'll take regular measurements around his belly and see how it goes. I'm pretty sure DrO's article said to measure behind the wither, but I get the point either way. The last round of hay the barn got was dusty, and he's lost weight during this time of the year before, in fact I got him 2-years ago this month and he looked like a wet rat then.

In response to teeth and worming -- yes, he gets many vet checks (I'm sure my vet thinks I'm a worried mother). But speaking of worming DrO, I want to start on the HA recommended program the first of the year. Can you tell me if I should start on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd cylce/year of your program from the one I'm currently on? (it's in my profile).
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 7:53 am:

You can start anywhere cp but best would be a product you used infrequently the last year of two so, looking at your current program, I would begin with moxidectin.
DrO
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 9:41 am:

DrO, what is your take on Pro Biotic products? Is liquid better than powder?

I've been keeping weekly measurements and my horse has lost some more weight. We started adding corn oil and alfalfa hay to his diet about 3 weeks ago, so I would have thought he'd at least be the same, but not less.

I think I'll be trading out the alfalfa for beet pulp since that seems to be the most widely recommended item. I've also been advised to cut back on the Omolene and get him onto Dry Cob or Rolled Oats instead (don't even know if I can get these)??

This is so frustrating because I get so many different opinions, and I'm not seasoned enough to know what's best, and don't want to keep switching stuff around. I need a good feeding plan to get him on permanently, starting with all the fescue (hay and pasture) he can eat, the fact that he can't eat pellets, and go from there. Please, please, we need help.
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 4:43 pm:

cp, have a gelding that had trouble with gas colic my vet said try pro biotics so we did and it has helped a great deal Also use it after shots to rebalance gut flora and even if big weather change is due. It has been very effective for us. My husband also uses it with his racing pigeons ??!! Just top dress. Good luck Cindy
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 9:54 am:

CP, I have mentioned this product before as we had spectacular results with a yearling colt we could not get weight on and he was on grain and corn oil. EQUINERGY-PALM OIL.

We got samples that were given to another farm - you'd have to go to their web site and give them a call to order.
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 10:51 am:

Linda - I ran a search for the web site - came up with palm oil but nothing for equinergy - do you have the web site addy? Would be interested in this for my mare.
Thanks,
Cheryl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 8:49 pm:

Hello cp,
For information on probiotics see Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Feeds, & Feeding » Probiotics and Yeast Culture Products.
DrO
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 8:49 am:

Cheryl,

I am trying to find the tub to see what the address of the web site is. Also, I have emailed them and await their reply. Will get back to you as soon as I know.
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 9:10 am:

Thank you, Linda - really appreciate it.
CK
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 12:27 pm:

Cheryl,

I just heard back from them. They have setup a website on Ebay.
https://stores.ebay.com/EQUINERGY

It doesn't seem like you can order off the website. Try 1-800-569-0241 EXT 81
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 2:46 pm:

Thanks a lot, Linda - I'll check out the web now and give them a call.
Ck
Member:
Qh4me

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 3:07 pm:

Hi CP,

I just changed my feeding program and am now using Dac products. I know many people who are using them and have had great luck and swear by them. Everyone who has switched to them, have never switched back. They have something for every need.

I was impressed with how helpful they were. I had hay and oat analasys done and faxed the info to them and they gave me a complete program for each of my horses, depending on needs. Bob, the owner was extremely helpful and could answer any questions I had. Personally, I find nutrition so complicated at times, that it was nice to talk to someone that was willing to answer even my dumbest questions.

I have had my horses on it for 4 weeks now and am extremely happy. All of them (from my 26 year old geriatric, my broodmare, my 3 year old wobbler to my 7 month old colt) are doing extremely well.

I feed alfalfa hay and the rolled oats, which is what they recommend when feeding their products.

Check them out if interested, I am sure you will find them very helpful.

www.feeddac.com
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 7:11 am:

EQUINERGY is simply a vegetable oil supplement so should be comparison shopped based on cost per unit basis and because these types oils are susceptible to oxidative spoilage I find that bulk oil for human consumption from warehouse like stores to be very competitively priced and most likely fresher.
DrO
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 7:37 am:

Thanks, Dr. O - I took one look at the cost per day and decided I would stick with the Canola Oil -
CK
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 8:41 am:

The reason I liked the product so much was that we had the colt on 2 quarts of sweet feed, 2 oz corn oil twice a day - plus all the mixed alfalfa hay he would eat. We didn't want to feed a yearling any more concentrates, yet he still looked ribby.

This product put weight on him so fast and effortlessly that I became a believer.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:50 am:

Cheryl, you can get either soy or corn oil, maybe even the Canola Oil, at places like COSTCO for approx. $11 for a huge container. I think it's 2 gal. container, but am not sure.
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 11:13 am:

Thanks, Sara - I've got her on Canola Oil which we get at COSTCO - it's cheaper than the corn oil which really surprised me. It is working - she has filled in a little along her back - taped at 888 a few months ago and Monday taped at 930 - YEA ! ! !
CK
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 12:30 pm:

CP, I wonder if I missed something? Is this the eight year old in your profile? Just wondering if you've talked to your vet about his weight loss? Could be something besides a food issue going on here. Again, sorry if I missed some other info.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 3:43 pm:

Yep, that’s him, the one and only. Had a vet check in September along with teeth, and am having a dentist see him this month too (just to be sure). He is a naturally thin boy and definitely far from some of those poor malnourished horses out there, but I don’t like it when I can feel his ribs.

I really appreciate all the ideas coming through too (sure are a lot of products out there), along with all the advice I’m getting locally my head is spinning! I’ve been reading through all the articles on the site over and over, have been taking diligent notes, even charting all the various ideas I’ve been getting to see where they stand on recommended amounts of fat, protein, fiber, and vitamins in the articles and I keep coming back to the same conclusion -- alfalfa & corn oil. Can I just get a yay or “neigh” if I’m on the right track? If I am then I’m going to stick with it for a few more weeks and hope it starts working.

We just increased the additions so his daily meals now amount to: grazing in the pasture, 4 flakes of fescue, 1 flake of alfalfa, 4 lbs of Omolene 100 (corn & oats), 1 cup of corn oil – all split into 2 feedings. Am I on track??? Someone told me it was the equivalent of jelly donuts, but based on what I’ve read I don’t think I agree (except maybe the small amount of molasses in the sweet feed and all the carrots he gets). The one thing that sticks out at me is the high calcium levels of all these things. What is the concern with too much calcium? Please let me know if I’m completely wrong, or what I’m missing. Would this diet add to overall bulk or just belly weight?

As far as energy is concerned, when work is increased or the weather cools I’m assuming no adjustments would need to be made to above diet since he doesn’t even eat all the hay he gets now? Or what would I add?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 4:40 pm:

This just makes me smile. I'm constantly struggling to keep my horses' weights down!
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 5:46 pm:

Sara, somehow I don't think I'd want to trade situations, but we'll see if the tables turn once I get to bring him home this Spring--I have a very nice pasture of grass developing for him and a of couple friends.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 12:26 pm:

I find a handful of bran is an excellent way to balance the excess calcium with some phosphorus.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:30 pm:

CP, after re-reading the entire post I now see what you're talking about.
Sounds to me that Dr. O thought the alfalfa was a good addition to the diet. If he likes it and eats it up well, perhaps you could give him a little more alfalfa, and a little less of the hay he doesn't really relish. I wouldn't worry about too much protein. It won't hurt him, just make his stall a little stinkier if he's peeing out the excess.
Think of it this way, if you are filled up with lettuce, there isn't much room in your stomach for that fattening stuff! The lettuce in this case would be the hay. The alfalfa and grains are more fattening.
Also, am I correct that Omolene 100 is a "complete" food? If so, you could probably increase the amount without problem, too. They are called "concentrates" because the calories are more concentrated, so they won't fill him up before he's had sufficient calories.
You do have that beautiful pasture preparing for him! You might yet find yourself with the rest of us on the "fatties" page once he is on it.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 3:58 pm:

Thanks Erika, just needed some reassurment I guess.

Shelley, I think the Calc/Phos are balanced it just seems there is so much of both in everything, especially calcium. So if you take all the percentages of the variety of foods, I'm wondering if you can end up with too much.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 4:11 pm:

just because I like to share pictures, here's one I just took of the lush new pasture (expect questions on how to migrate him onto it in Spring)

new pasture

here's it is just 2-months ago, a few weeks after planting
not there yet
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 4:18 pm:

Oh I see what your saying cp. What I have always been told is to not feed too much alfalfa because it makes them work to hard to process all that protein. Now this is for my old mare and I think we are talking about a younger horse, right? Also, here in CA the alfalfa is SOOO rich that it might be a whole different thing. For a horse that is working you want the protien to build muscle. For a skinny horse that just needs fattening you want oils or carbs . . . ? Is that an outdated philisophy?
That said I dont think one flake of alfalfa and Omolene 100 is horribly high in protien.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 9:35 pm:

Shelly, you do need to be careful with that California alfalfa; we have to be careful here, too. Most of it is grown for dairy cows. Have you tried Equine Senior? I've had really good luck with it with my older horses tha need more than hay. Beau, the fuzzy old girl, won't eat alfalfa leaves, but will only eat the stems. She waits for the EQ. Senior, and she likes good grass hay or the Senior mixed with beet pulp.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 11:02 pm:

She gets 1 flake of oiled alfalfa a day, thats along with about 4 flakes grass hay and senior feed. I give her other goodies too but they are more sporatic. She used to get beet pulp but I stopped because it seems so tough to chew even after it is soaked.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 9:00 am:

Shelley, your last statement surprised me . . . Did you use flaked beet pulp or pellets? Did you cover them with a LOT of warm water? Maybe it didn't get enough water on it. I've fed the pelleted beet pulp, and it needs LOTS of water (I use warm water because it takes less time for the pellets to absorb it) for the pellets to break down and get soft . . . almost like cooked oatmeal.
I had an old guy with smooth mouth . . . the few teeth he DID have were rounded nubs . . . and he could just suck that soaked beet pulp down . . . didn't have to worry about chewing it . . .
but I didn't use it for long with him as the soaked senior pellets, oil, and soaked alfalfa cubes worked excellently with him.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 11:36 am:

Holly, I used the flaked beet pulp, didn't know there was pelleted varieties. I would soak it over night. There were always big leathery pieces left. Maybe I should look into the pelleted version.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 12:04 pm:

Holly, Actually, I think it was called shredded beet pulp, and I definitley put enough water on it. I made sure there was always water left over after soaking.
How long does it take the pelleted beet pulp to soften ??
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 11:27 pm:

Shelley, I use the beet pulp pellets, and use about 1/4 pellets to 3/4 water or maybe even a little more water. I measure out and soak the pellets when I do my before bed barn check, between 8 and 10 p.m., and in the morning when I feed they are mush. If they don't get enough water the pellets are soft on the outside and hard on the inside and the old horses have hard time eating them. I've never used the shreds because the only ones they have here have molasses mixed with them.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 2:22 am:

Shelley, I tried a couple of times today to get to the site to answer you, but couldn't get on. Sara has given a good answer.
I used very hot tap water, and it seemed to take at least 20 minutes or more before the pellets were soft. Cold water takes much longer, and I've known many folks who fix the feed the night before.
There have been a few discussions on HA about whether or not to soak beet pulp, and it can be fed without soacking, but I choose to soak it. As Sara says, the pellets are very hard unless they are soaked thoroughly, and the times I've used beet pulp have been mostly for horses that were either ill or toothless . . . and warm, soaked feed seemed the most kind.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 10:03 am:

When you feed beet pulp as a major part of the diet I recommend a few other adjustments to correct the calcium / phosphorous imbalance and improve the protein content slightly. When fed with alfalfa the protein is correct but the mineral imbalance exacerbated. Fortunately this is easy to correct and you will find this under the Beet Pulp heading in the Forage article in the Nutrition topic.
DrO
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 1:46 pm:

OK, I will try to find the pelleted kind, our version must just not be shredded very fine. I used to use the shredded kind all the time for our colicy pony so I am familiar with how much soaking to do and like I said earlier, bran is a good way to balance the C/P ratio. Thanks, everyone maybe I can put a little more of a layer on my old girl.
Member:
Annaspop

Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 3:48 pm:

Sara, what is the brand/manufacurer of the pellets? whenever I ask for them here I get a blank look and asked if I know where they can order them.
Margy
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 11:04 am:

The ones I use are made in Idaho and distributed by IFA - InterMountain Farmers Co-op. I'm sure there are many different brands. Check with your local feedstore or if you have one, co-op.
Member:
Annaspop

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2006 - 2:00 pm:

Well, the feed stores around here are the ones that ask if I know where to find the pellets. Go figure. If I have a brand name to start with, sometimes I can find what I want and they will order it and maybe carry it.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2006 - 6:31 pm:

I have been doing some research into LMF feeds. Are they available in your area? They've never been available in our area so I've never used them although I know others who have used them and liked them a lot. Now one of the feed stores down in St.George carries the brand. I mention them because they have a couple of different products that don't contain molasses and that are formulated for horses that need low carb diets. They also have feed for horses that have difficulty chewing. You might check their products out on line and see if they have something that would suit your needs.

https://www.lmffeeds.com
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 10:11 am:

Thanks Sara,
Names help, especially when you cant rummmage thru the feed store warehouse looking at ingredients labels.
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