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  Discussion on New Barn Management Issues, What Would You Do?
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Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 4:26 pm:

I just moved my mare Lilly to a new place. I moved her because the place is close to home, has lovely pastures, and has a great indoor and outdoor. However, I have already come upon a few issues I am not sure how to deal with.
This lady is a typical horse woman in that she is pretty sure that the way she manages things is the right way. I think most of us in the horse world have a bit of that kind of thinking in us ;)
Anyway, my issues are regarding her vaccination schedule, her management of my cribber, and her feeding practices.
My mare has EPSM, diagnosed by Dr Valentine. She has done well in terms of not tying up when maintained on a low carb high fat diet. Thing is, she is too skinny and doesn't really like her food with oil on it. I explained this to the BO and she seemed to understand. However, I find now that she is feeding Lilly grain with a minimum of oil, "Because she won't eat the grain without it". I have gone through this everywhere, and folks only believe me when she ties up. I would like to have a vet explain it to her, but she has her own vet, who is the reason for my problem with her vaccination schedule, so I figure this vet won't be any help on the EPSM matter. The good thing is that there is plenty of grass here, so maybe Lilly will be OK with less oil in this situation.
Second issue is the vaccination schedule. I live in Maryland where we have a killing frost in early fall usually. We have mosquitoes in the summer and early spring and sometimes mid fall. Every vet I have had has recommended mosquito borne illness vaccines once a year in the spring. This vet, however, recommends every vaccine twice a year. She also will not give IN flu/rhino vaccines. I have a problem with this, as Dr O's research has pretty much confirmed the IM vaccine is useless. Should I give my mare the IN in three months even though she got the IM? Anyway, the BO won't allow me to give my own vaccines and requires me to use her vet and abide by her schedule.
Third, my mare is a cribber, and it was known when we moved in. The BO's vet said Lilly is skinny because she cribs, and to put a strap on her. I tried that before, resulting in a rubbed raw throat latch and poll, with no stop of cribbing. I used the miracle collar. The BO put a strap on while I was on vacation, without my permission. She used the nutcracker type, which I have never tried. It apparently works. She claims Lilly has gained weight already because she has stopped cribbing (it has been a week). I know from experience this is not the reason, and that when Lilly is on grass, she gains weight very quickly, which is the main reason we are at this barn.
So, what should I do? Grin and bear it since none of these things are really hurting my mare? Try to get in touch with her vet to see where she is coming from? Argue with the BO? Leave? Something else?
I am right now doing the first and hopeing Lilly is going to be OK.
Alicia
Member:
Hally

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 9:55 pm:

Hi there,

Why is she even getting grain? I also have a gelding diagnosed with EPSM by Dr Valentine. In the beginning getting 2.5 cups of oil into him a day was trial and error. I found out that with him it was the consistency of his food that either got him to eat his oil or not. I have him on beet pulp soaked but not to wet, a cup of a product called podium eventer (made for EPSM horses) and a few cut up carrots. The trick with the beet pulp is not to make it to wet and let the oil soak up into the beet pulp. And I wonder if she isnt hurting your horse through her lack of knowledge of feeding horses that have a condition like EPSM. Tying up is no joke. Personally my thoughts on boarding are, I pay the bills. And its just as easy to pay someone else that can do a proper job where you feel that the care of your horse is the number one priority. Perhaps you should give her a print out of some of Dr Valentines research. I dont thing anyone should have to "grin and bear it"! Would you grin and bear it if your mechanic didnt do a good job looking after your car?
Member:
Amara

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 28, 2006 - 10:27 pm:

i ran a boarding operation for a long time..i cant imagine treating a boarder like she is treating you... i did what my boarders told me they were doing... if i was concerned with what they were doing, i asked questions and did my own research.. if i came up with something that was different then what they were doing i discussed it with them.... sometimes we made changes, sometimes we didnt... as hally said, tying up is no joke.. most people dont have much experience with EPSM and tying up so -many have never even heard of it...
as far as vaccinations-is this a busy show barn where horses are coming and going all the time? insistence on the why's and how's of vaccinations is something that each owner should be entitled to make final decisions of, except in the case of any statewide mandates...
the only thing i can understand is thecribbing collar, but there again these things should have been discussed before you even showed up... cribbers can wreak havoc on a barn interior, causing a loss of money... i always insisted that all cribbers had to wear something when stalled.. that was a condition of boarding... i was more than willing to try whatever type of collar we could, and to switch around if necessary, but they did have to wear collars.. i gladly took them off when they went outside, and depending on the horse could keep them off for a few hours when they came in...
as far as your horse gaining weight within a week because of not cribbing, i agree with you its more likely the grass...

if this were my horse i would be having a good long talk with the owner and manager, or find another barn...
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 8:57 am:

Yeah, the feed is an issue. I am in the process of printing out Dr Valentine's personal suggestions to me she e mailed me.
More stuff happened last night.
First off, the BO shaved Lilly's mane four inches down her poll. This is again without asking me. I assume it is because that is where the cribbing strap ends.
Also, I got the bill from the farm vet for her teeth floating that they did for me two weeks ago. They sedated her without getting my permission. They used two drugs, with a cost of 90 dollars. Lilly has never had to be drugged to be floated before.
Next, I asked if I could put up a light in Lilly's stall so I could get her in season early (going to breed her again this year and use embryo transfer). The BO promptly asked me why. I told her I wanted her to come into season earlier than she normally would. She then informed me 1) that doesn't work, 2) HER horses compete in young horse classes and do fine even though they are born in May, and 3) she doesn't understand why I want to do that (even though I had just explained).
Last, but not least, she is turning my mare out with just one other horse. I told her, in writing, when Lilly moved in, that she is herd bound. Well, she and the other horse are totally bonded. I took her to the arena last night to ride, and she was INSANE!!!! I can work around it, but I don't think it is a good idea to turn just two horses out in a paddock.
This is driving me crazy!!! I am starting up my barn search again.
Alicia
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 9:18 am:

I say pack up and run!
Member:
Christel

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 9:50 am:

Wow Alicia- the nerve of some people. I once had a college professor that said- to see the true person, give em a little power and see what they do with it. Your barn manager sounds like a total idiot that has the power to do whatever her pee brain will tells her to do and she is taking advantage of it, with no regard to your wishes.
Unreal the things she has already done to your horse, I too would be looking for another place.
In my business (lawn care) I love the customer that knows what they want. I have some that want me to do 'what I think' is right, which is ok, but I always explain what I am doing and make sure they agree, afterall, its their lawn, they have to live with it, not me. Same with horses, only you know what your horse needs and does best with, if I were in the position, I would love to have you as a boarder, you obviously know how to care for your horse, more so than I would.
Good luck,
Chris
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 10:29 am:

Chris,
I think there are several types of horse folks. There are those who think experience is everything, and books are not worth their weight in poop, those who think whatever the expert they pick knows all and never question that expert, and those like me, who try to learn at any opportunity and use experience and book knowledge and info gleaned from others with experience to make decisions (lots of other types, but these apply here). This lady has bred horses for years and thinks that she knows it all, and is not open to anything new.
I do appreciate your kind words, I do try to be the best horse person I can.
Alicia
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 10:43 am:

Chris, I too would love to have you as a boarder. I only have two boarders and neither of them know much or care much. I'd much rather have someone who knows and cares about their horse's needs.

I'd personally be shopping for a new barn ASAP. This woman sounds like she is stuck in the dark ages. It sounds like she isn't up on current medical care, and doesn't want to be.

You don't say how big her barn is or how much help she has, but some of the measures she is taking sound like she is trying to make things as simple as possible for herself. However, she has no right to medicate or treat your horse, or clip her for that matter, without your consent except in case of emergency, and then only if there is a clause in the boarding contract that gives her that right. Legally, the argument could be made that you are not responsible for payment of the bill for any medical/dental treatment unless you gave your permission for the treatment. However, that would be opening up another can of worms, and put the poor vet or dental tech in the middle. It would be much easier for you and your horse to just move.
Member:
Christel

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 10:50 am:

Alicia, you got her number, that's for sure. Don't you hate dealing with the 'know it all'. It didn't take me long to realize early on in my horse endeavors that a lifetime is not enough time to know it all with horses.
My favorite saying about horses is- the day you think you know it all is the day you should quit- as it is impossible to 'know it all'.
To not be open to new ideas is just as crazy, a person can miss out on so much if they don't allow new ideas to come into thought, one doesn't have to act on new ideas, but to not even consider them or hear them out is insane.
You can learn something from everyone, tho not all things would be something you might try. I don't think the barn manager is even listening to you when you talk, she sounds like a very egotistical person, with the power to be so.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 11:13 am:

Chris,
Yes, you have her down pat, and yes, know it all's, in ANY field, are folks I like to avoid! I have one area I sometimes tend to be a know it all in, and that is type 1 diabetes, because I have had it for 25 years. HOWEVER, I am ALWAYS open to new ideas, and even in this, which effect me every day, 24 hours, I agree that one size does not fit all.
Sara,
I did give her vet permission to do Lilly's teeth, she was due and the vet was already scheduled to come to do the other horses. I have a dentist I usually use, but since she was due, and I had, at that time, no reason to think the vet was unreasonable, I asked them to do Lilly too. I did not, however, give permission to use a tranquilizer. I guess they assumed I implied permission by asking them to do her teeth. I am sure that didn't hurt her, but it just shows again that this lady, and her vet, don't think owners have much say in their horse's care.
Alicia
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 11:28 am:

I hope you can find another place, even if not so close, that is ridiculous (just in case you needed more reinforcement).

As far as not hurting your horse goes I might disagree. Lilly may pick-up on your displeasure which in turn could create an invisible wedge between you two (if it were me and my horse it would anyway, he definitely knows when I'm bothered).
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 11:40 am:

cp,
Geeze, I hope not! I don't need a wedge between us. We aren't that close, actually. Not that we dislike each other, she does seem to like me as much as she can like a person, and I certainly like her. She is a "horse horse", not a people horse. My home bred whom I lost last year was a people horse. He and I had the bond that I hope to create again with the baby I am trying to get out of Lilly.
I will endeavor not to be in a bad frame of mind at the barn. I do tend to not worry about things besides riding while riding, which is one reason I ride ;)
Thanks!
Alicia
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 12:42 pm:

I was at a barn that sounds very similar to your situation. The barn owner had way too many opinions and a very dominant personality. It's very difficult to know this while visiting and viewing a barn. You have to "live" with these people for awhile to really know. I hated to move my horse so soon, but she pushed my buttons too many times and it was the last straw. The new place we moved to gave all the right care; good advice from a knowledgeable staff but ultimately they do what the owner wants. That was 2 1/2 years ago and I have not regretted the decision for a moment.

Good luck,
Linda
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 12:56 pm:

Linda,
You are so right. You can't know till you live with it. I am not quite ready to give up. I will buy my own cribbing strap, and use my own vet, and ask her to please feed according to the expert's recipe. The vaccinations are the hardest to ignore. I am still looking for a new place, but I am not going to up and leave without giving her notice, and I won't give notice until I find a new place.
Alicia
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 1:05 pm:

sounds like a bad situation which is only going to get worse. Unless you can get this owner to stop meddling... and that is what she is doing.

You know YOUR horse. end of story. if you are waffling on things and asking advice then she is going to step in thinking you might need some help. If you aren't, and you are STATING this is the horses regimen and needs, and she is still pushing her ways on you, than thats meddling... and sorry to say but start packing... and looking.

The health of the horse is your domain. the generic care and feeding is hers. anything outside watering, mucking, and feeding really should not be questioned if you and she agreed to other things at the outset. She should NOT be adlibbing to your requests... ever.

I would be LIVID if someone shaved my horses mane.. for whatever reason... And what if your horse had reactions to the anesthesia for floating? you might be able to get your vet to write something up. And you can put signs up for specifics on the door to the stall. on a clipboard for all to see, so no one makes this mistake or "forgets" your requests...

The paddock thing though is something she might not be able to accomodate though.. that is something you both agreed on at the outset? if so, you have that to go by.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 1:26 pm:

jojo,
I may have sounded wishy washy, as I didn't want to make her angry. As soon as I first said I used Calvenza (IN) to vaccinate my horses, she kinda freaked and that was one of the first conversations we had. I wrote up a memo when I first came there showing what she needed to eat, which was alfalfa pellets. She agreed at that time, but now I see she really didn't want to feed that. I will ask again for her to feed what I asked with oil.
I agree to the drugging. I did not, however, specifically ask her not to use it.
She has over 100 acres, and about 14 horses. The paddocks are at least 5 acres each. I think she just likes to do it this way. There was no agreement in regards to paddocks, I just assumed she would put her in with a few other horses. I will tell her Lilly isn't doing well. I did tell her in the memo that Lilly is herd bound.
Alicia
Member:
Hally

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 1:46 pm:

Alicia,

Just remember that she has a business and you are the customer. Why be afraid of making her angry. You should never have to tolerate her kind of behaviour. YOU are paying her! So many of these stable owners seem to forget this. And interestingly enough, at least in our area, barns that have a bad reputation always land up either closing their doors and/or landing up with clients that no other reputable barn wants. The horse world is a very close and small circle.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 1:58 pm:

Sorry Alicia, hope I didn't put non-existent ideas in your head, it's just one of those things that would affect me, not necessarily you.

I remember your relationship with Guinness!
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 2:16 pm:

Now that sounds just awful. why would you have to tiptoe about? Seems like shes a bully and you're too nice. Now that you understand the dynamics how can we get her to do what you want... without getting her all pissy...

You might have the ability to fix it. might not. good to try though. 100 acres? 5 acre pastures? sounds like heaven on horseback...

doing this (getting her to comply to your wishes) without her feeling put down is going to be tough.. who knows maybe once you do, she'll back off. (and a fabulous friendship will ensue).. If she is a true horsewoman, chances are that IF, she trusts that you know exactly what you are doing, what you want and so on.. she'd back off. Because sometimes its just a matter of perception wrongs... and she thinks she's being a mentor while you are finding her invasive... Then again there are those out there that live for this meddling...

when something is in writing it adds an air of authority to it. might try getting her to read what you want done. or reiterate what you two spoke about upon moving in (since she has been forgetting) or again like mentioned above get YOUR vet to supercede her wishes... You can always tiptoe by saying, I know how many horses you have to care for in case you have forgotten my horses particular needs to be healthy, here they are.. and hand her a bulletted point memo.. (nothing long and drawn out etc..) to put in my horses file... for future reference...

3 strike rule... do the nice thing 3 times... if you get the same response, negative, ignoring, blatant disregard. Then you have every right to get pissed and have at her... grin...or just move...

But people like that...this owner, will back down if you stand your ground. and be nice about it. if a true bully type. or not. you have to figure that part out..

Everyone has that in them to an extant. me too... i have a neighbor that really doesn't know horses.. ugh. and i have to walk away biting my tongue unless she asks... The more she talks the more i realize the less she knows what she is doing. (in my opinion)... I get afraid for her... if she would just be more in control/decisive, i wouldn't worry so much that her horses are in good care.. (and this is just a neighbor) i can imagine my personality type owning and running a stable. I'd be dead from worry...
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 3:18 pm:

Hally,
Horse buisnesses have always been strange to me. I have never been in a barn where I felt like a customer. I have always felt like I had to please the owner. I think that is the way it is around here since there are not enough barns with an arena and grass so those places pick and choose.
cp,
Yes, I miss that relationship every day!
jojo,
I think she thinks I don't know what I am doing because most of the things we have talked about she has a different opinion about. The vaccine thing, the cribbing thing, the lights thing, the food thing. I did print out Beth Valentines paper and am going to give it to her today. I am also going to say something along the lines of, "Lilly seems to be more attached to her companion than is good for her, is it possible for her to go into a paddock with more than one horse?" I already tried two times with the vaccines, and she got more mad the second time, so I won't go there again.
Do you think the paper on the feed, telling her Lilly needs to be on one of the diets here, and the prase above are non aggressive ways of dealing with her? The problem is, I really don't like people in general, and I tend to come on angry when I am not, so I try not to interact with folks who push my buttons so I don't say something the wrong way. I am pretty good at not saying the wrong thing, but I am not good at the way I say it.
Argghhh, this is driving me crazy!
Alicia
Member:
Hally

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 3:38 pm:

Alicia,

Unfortunately I think this woman has your number. You sound like a kind soul and people like this woman take full advantage of people like you. I think given the circumstances you are up against, you only have two choices. Put up or ship out. There are always choices. It just depends what choice you make which will make you happy.
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 3:53 pm:

I agree 100% with Hally. She's got you pegged. I have had that experience too. If you don't set a precedence in the beginning she will take full advantage. I think if you try to put up with it there will be more and more frustrations and she will take more and more from you. You will end up miserable and never wanting to go there...you sound like a kind soul, the kind control freaks just live to pounce on!!
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 4:25 pm:

Alicia, I own a pet resort, where we board dogs and cats. My customers are the "boss" of what we do with their pets when they are in our care. We get some eccentric requests, but whatever makes them happy. . . They are paying my mortgage!
People in the dog world can have the same arrogant attitude as well. I train dogs, and when people come to my classes, they are having fun, as are their dogs. They are not being intimidated by me, yelled at because their dog is not sitting straight, belittled in front of their peers. I have attended many educational classes for dogs, and am still amazed that people can claim to be so loving and wonderful to the dogs, and yet be so rude to their fellow humans.
They are not doing you a favor taking care of your horse, they are providing a service, that they are being paid for, by you, the customer.
We put a card on the kennel doors for how each animal is to be cared for. Perhaps you could post a bright orange card on your stall door with strict instructions, asking that you be notified if there is a problem following these instructions. That way you can be less confrontational, if that is more comfortable for you. Also, there should be no confusion as to your wishes, as they are right there on her stall door.
I know that is why we have such a wonderful business, and happy customers both canine/feline and human, We listen to what our animals and people need, to give them a guilt free/anxiety free vacation!
Will your vet go out to this barn? If so, I would have her instruct your BO, and get you out of the middle of things.
Good Luck!
Suz
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

Everyone has a good point...maybe she truly is a bully...If a person gets mad with me...i counter with the same exact tone>...unless it escalates to something ridiculous. than just walk away. but if she is "getting mad" outwardly there is a serious problem. And you should let her know in no uncertain terms you are not a child. or will put up with that tone, etc...( i have no idea your age or this owners, but from the discussion it seems she is older and you're younger) I don't care how gruff you come across. in a professional tone you are asking for a professional solution...

Ultimately if she is a "its my way or the highway" kind of person than you're in trouble. And there is no way around it. Its her barn her rules.

what are the other 14 boarders like? do they have this problem? maybe the two of you just aren't gelling and that is at issue.

But really... no one should tell you how, when, how much, where, about your horse. Barn rules should be followed unless its stuff you agreed on at the outset. If there is a standing vaccination policy you can argue to your hearts content but if she wants horses vaccinated 10 times a year that is her barn rule... the cribbing collar is your concern whether or not to use it. Its also your decision on how her teeth get floated. Its against the law to anesthetize unless a vet did it.. and its a safety issues to have your horse either turned out alone. or with 3 or more horses. NOT the same one. And adding feed or taking away is not her call... unless she want to pay the vets bill. (might let her in on that one).

now if she has no such already declared rules and starts adding stuff adlib than you have a leg to stand on. right? But argueing about it is going to get your nowhere. state as nicely as you can. i don't want you to touch my horse, change her feed, add things i don't approve of first, etc... and if she says tough> then its time to move. It's her barn and its her place. and you can't buck city hall...

But stand your ground... there is no reason in the world for her to tell you what to do with your horse. But resolution and quickly needs to take place otherwise, you will get sick over it. and hate going there. and that does no good for your horse...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 7:00 pm:

Alicia, let me deal with the issues rather than the personality conflicts as they seem to be covered above.

It is not that the injectable flu/rhino vaccines are worthless but that there efficacy is limited and not as good as the intranasal products. I use them in incidences where turn over is low and horses are not going to trainers or showing. Concerning the viral encephalitis, twice yearly is pretty routine most places if there are mosquitoes present for more than 6 months. On the other hand this is not a communicable disease if your horses become infected so why just once year is a problem is hard to understand.

Personally I think the two above issues livable and if you feel the need, and that it is worth the trouble, trailer your horse to the vet of your choice and get the intranasal vaccine. The issue on tying up and the diagnosis is a bit tougher.

If your horse does have EPSM or PSSM or whatever letters you choose and starts receiving more carbs than the muscles can properly convert to glycogen there will be problems. On the other hand if I had a dollar for ever horse that came to me with a diagnosis of EPSM that just did not seem to fit the history and profile and once slowly moved back to a regular diet without problems I would have enough for a meal at a fair restaurant. The problem is muscle biopsy identifies many individuals with muscle inclusions that do not have a history of any related diseases (Incidence of polysaccharides storage myopathy: necropsy study of 225 horses. Valentine BA, Cooper BJ.).

The bottom line here is if you feel the diagnosis firm this is a non-negotiable condition and another situation found if the owner/manager will not comply.

Look around, are this lady's horses the picture of health or do you see problems?
DrO
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 8:03 pm:

I boarded for a short time at a facility run by a real bully who had a way of pushing people's buttons. The only way I found to communicate important stuff effectively was in writing (preferably e-mail), so that I could get things said clearly and accurately in a friendly and businesslike way. I'd draft it, set it aside overnight, then reread and tweak it to make sure I hadn't let any hint of anger or judgement creep in. This helped to provide a objective, factual base for followup conversations. Or, sometimes I'd get lucky and we'd settle things by e-mail, which served as a record that I could forward to her later if she had a memory lapse. Might be worth a try in your case.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 1:56 pm:

Suz,
I am a dog person too, and I do find in the dog show world, it is similar to the horse show world in that some folks think they know it all. In my experience, though, more dog folks are willing to listen and learn from others. Maybe it is my limited experience. I am finding I enjoy showing my two Collies more than I ever did showing my horses. Probably because I am not worried about falling off my dogs!
jojo,
You are right, and I am currently playing it by ear for now. I have heard from a few folks that the turn around at this place is pretty high. I didn't realize that. I have spoken to a few of the other boarders, but not about her, as I don't know the loyalties of the boarders.
I think I am going to move regardless, I just don't like her and unless she is just acting, that is the way she is.
Dr O,
Thanks for the info on the vaccines, I feel better about that, but the BO is going to require the injectable. Can I give the intranasal myself on top of the injectable?
In regards to EP/PSM, she was diagnosed with a biopsy by Dr Valentine, and does have symptoms, and has tied up three times in the 8 years I have owned her. Not since she has been on the diet, however.
The other horses vary. Not all are the picture of health, but not all are skinny either. I think if the horse fits into her plan, they do well, if they do not, they don't.
Sharon,
Actually, I went last night and she wasn't there. I wrote a handwritten note on the print out from Dr Valentine's site and left it on Lilly's blanket bar in front of her stall. I have not heard from the BO yet. I assume she will talk to me about it tonight. I basically asked her to review the paper, and told her I had been noticing Lilly is acting more nervous and upset than I have seen in a long time and that those have been precursors to her tieing up in the past, and that I want her on one of the diets on the plan before she ties up again. I hope that will do it. This was not a lie, but it may have as much to do with the fact that she only has one horse in her herd. I plan on bringing that up tonight by asking if it would be possible to put Lilly in a paddock with more horses as she is so attached to her pasture mate she has a hard time focusing on me when I ride, and that is a little scary. I will see what she says to that, but I can already see the look of disdain on her face.
I am seriously looking for a new place, and I have lowered my requirements to only those that Lilly needs.
And to everyone, I am a much better person than I ever was before I owned horses, and in the past, I would have told her off already. My beloved Guinness taught me so much about patience and about how getting mad accomplishes nothing in most situations that I feel I am so much better in dealing with humans as well as animals.
Alicia
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 2:05 pm:

Alicia, your post asks what we would do, if we were in your shoes.
I would leave.
Not because someone might be right or wrong, but because fundamentally, you aren't happy (and I will bet the BO isn't happy either).
Life is too short.
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 2:37 pm:

I confess, Alicia, that I don't understand your objection to keeping your horse with just one other horse instead of a group. In my experience with herd-bound horses, they exhibit the behavior in both situations. I've always approached it as a training issue that I needed to work through.
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 2:42 pm:

Hi Alicia,

It is obvious that you love Lilly and want the best for her, If I may I would like to ask, How long has this lady run her facility,?
Are the horses in her care in good conditions?
What reports do you have from her vet.?

I had a similar problem years ago with my livery lady. However I had to have my chare of humble pie, when I stopped to think that she managed a yard with over 100 horses, her ancestors had been in the horse business for generations, and she knew her stuff, we did not see eye to eye on everything but, she took good care of my horses.

About cribbing she has a point; it is after all a nervous reaction. I really feel that the ones to tell us if things are right or wrong are the horses themselves. I know immediately if my horses are being mistreated because they sure let me know straight away (all 11 of them) so I would suggest that you watch Lilly closely and see how she behaves and looks. Some times over protecting our loved ones makes them more insecure hence cribbing, wind sucking, weaving etc. .

Just a look from the outside.
all the best
Liliana
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 2:42 pm:

Hey Alicia I think I agree with Cheryl.

However, maybe this is a cultural thing but... it is her place not yours.

Maybe she has some good reasons for what she is trying to do. I have a friend who runs a large boarding facility who spends a lot of time trying to stop her customers doing strange things with their horses. She would I know be sceptical of your EPSM diagnosis, I would also mention here in Europe the vaccination periods are mostly 6 months (this has changed in the past two years) and I know my friend would be very sceptical of how lights could be used on your horse to get her to cycle earlier without affecting other horses and without whacking up her electricity bills.

So just trying to put the other view since the owner of the facility isn't here to defend herself... but Cheryl's right - if you aren't happy, move.

Best wishes

Imogen
Member:
Kstud

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 2:57 pm:

Hi Alicia,
The diet seems to be the big immovable issue here and to be honest if the BO will not or cannot make arrangements to accommodate that then for the sake of your horse you should move.
I am not sure that the other matters would require such drastic action if all else is good. It could well be that neither the HO or other boarders want their horses out in a herd in case of injury. We have a barn here and only the brood mares and youngstock go out in herds, the ridden horses are grazed in pairs always as they tend to be valuable and no-one wants an injury. Your mare is bound to be unsettled in a new place anyway but once she realises the routine is that she is ridden on her own you will find she settles soon.
I agree with Dr O about the vaccines, if you wish you can always bring your mare to your own vet for the IN. I presume that it is the vet who dictates the vaccination schedule and type of vaccine and if the BO has a good relationship with her it probably would not occur to her to question it, that is the sort of thing that you can go along with for a while and try to re-educate her when the moment is more favourable. After all whether we agree or not we all have our little routines and foibles and often do not wish to change them.
Similarly with the teeth, some vets will routinely sedate ALL horses as it makes it much easier to do a good job. If this has always been the pattern in this barn the BO may genuinely not thought to ask if you minded about the sedation as she may have thought it as normal.
With the collar as well I think she sounds as if she is trying to help. All in all she sounds overbearing but she may not be the worst. The facilities sound so good otherwise that it could be worth taking the time to resolve the feed issue now and then trying other modifications once that awkward honeymoon period is over.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 3:13 pm:

Sharon,
She has never been in a herd so small, and she has moved before and never been this bad. That is why I think it is not good for her in particular. Maybe she will settle in, it has been a month now, so maybe it still needs more time. She has always been like this, but never this bad, and I do work on it.
Liliana,
The other horses are not all healthy looking and not all sick looking, they are a mix. She has bred and owned horses for "longer than you have been alive" (something she told me when I questioned the use of the IM shot). She is in her early 60s and I am in my late 30s. I don't want to get in to the reasons for cribbing, but Lilly has done it every day since I owned her,and it is no better or worse in this situation.
Her vet won't call me back, I have called several times. The BO told me the vet would be hard to get a hold of, though, so I am not feeling singled out there.
Imogen,
No, I agree, it IS her place, not mine. That is why I am trying not to upset her in this. I agree that not everyone beleives in the IN, the EPSM thing, or the lights, but I still don't think she should question me if it isn't going to hurt my mare. Also, the lights in question are low energy and designed to be used in stalls.
Catherine,
I will see what she says about the diet today. By the way, she has always been ridden on her own, that is not new, just the small turn out is new to her way of having things done. Yes, the relationship with the vet is very strong here. I have asked Dr O if I can give the IN on top of the IM, I gave it myself in the past.
Thanks all!
Alicia
Member:
Hally

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 4:46 pm:

As an owner of a horse with EPSM I find it so frustrating to hear from individuals and vets alike, claiming that this condition is either a myth or over diagnosed. Beth Valentine, a dedicated veterinarian and pathologists who is doing her research work at the Veterinary College at Cornell, has been a God sent to so many of us horse owners whose horses are plagued with mysteries symptoms that other vet with little or no knowledge write off as behavioural issues or something else generic. I am so fortunate to have my regular vet who recognizes EPSM as a real problem. So Alicia good on you for doing whats best for your horse! If more people and vets had more of an open mind probably a lot of horses would suffer less.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 8:42 pm:

My two cents: if the barn owner takes better care of the horses "that fit in her plan" vs the horses that don't, she's not a true horse (or even animal) person. It shouldn't matter if the horse is valued at $500 or $500,000 or if they are 30 yo old and retired or actively showing...they all deserve good care and it certainly shouldn't be so obvious that some horses are better cared for than others. They are individuals and require individual care, to a reasonable extent i.e. what is necessary to keep them thriving.

I've been at three barns since getting into horses 8 or so years ago. While in one, the care was barely adequate (thus I'm no longer there), but there was no "favoritism", it was simply a poorly run facility. Where I am at now, until recently, I was the only English rider amongst all western trained horses. To this barn owner, it doesn't matter in the least what the horse does and she lovingly looks after all of them. I mentioned in another post recently that there's 2 30 yo geldings, 1 retired (owner NEVER checks on this horse), one in light work. You'd never know how old they are to look at them. They are lively, bright eyed and shiny coated.

In the very first barn I boarded at (where the care was poor but I had to learn what good care was), I always stressed out about travelling for work. I had friends and even my poor husband check in on my horse when I was gone. After landing at the airport after a week of meetings, I'd go straight to the barn before I even went home. That became the litmus test for future boarding situations: if I can travel & KNOW that my horse is well cared for, if I can leave and not even think about my horse except for missing my rides and time with her, then I know I'm in a good place.
Member:
Patricia

Posted on Thursday, Nov 30, 2006 - 11:53 pm:

This is an interesting conversation. I recently moved from a boarding situation that some would find similar in some ways, but my move was the result of relocating from Maryland to Idaho, not specifically a problem with the facility. The barn manager was someone who became a friend, but a person who annoyed many of the other boarders with whom I rode and considered friends. She was very opinionated, but she was truly concerned about the horses. What I found was that her behavior was simply who she was, with her family, her friends AND her boarding business. A lot of her opinionated behavior was based on her belief that no one was as educated as she was on the care of horses. This particular facility has been in existence for 30 years and was managed by her parents until a couple of years ago when she and her husband took over the day to day management. Bottom line is that boarders were often made to feel like they knew nothing about horses or their care. Her manner was the problem. Although I don't believe she meant to, she made everyone feel as if they had no knowledge about horses, including their own. And that attitude created a lot of animosity. I personally never had a problem with her, but I believe that was because she knew I wasn't someone who would simply do things her way because she thought I should. I will certainly listen, but will not be run over. I did not have to articulate that to her to make my position clear. The bottom line is that your horse's welfare is first and foremost. If you truly think she is doing things to put your horse in danger, you need to leave. But if she is just one of those people who thinks things must be done "her way" you can handle that. You simply have to be better than she is at manipulating the situation.
Finally, you are the owner. How your horse is cared for is your choice, good bad or indifferent, as long as it fits in the boarding scheme of things. Rather than get involved in personality differences, decide whether the facility and basic care is good for your horse. If it is, you may wish to find a way to deal with the less important things.
I will say, however, that if your horse needs to be fed in a certain way due to a medical condition, and it was not a problem to the boarding facility when you brought your horse there, the changing of that regimen is a non-negotiable issue. In your case, if she agreed to feed the way you suggested when you arrived, she has no right to make a change. And no one, I don't care how wonderful their facility is, will make decisions without consulting me concerning shaving manes or drugging for dental care. It is a matter of respect. Pure and simple.
Take a good hard look at the situation, remove the personaly conflict, and decide whether the situation is good or bad for your horse. Then act accordingly. Your personal opinion of this person is not important.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Dec 1, 2006 - 11:37 am:

Well, last night I went again, and I noticed, surprise of surprise, OIL on Lilly's grain! So, it appears BO did read the note I left. The note did say to transition slowly to the alfalfa or commercial low carb diet, so I will wait a few more days before asking about what kind of pellets she is feeding, or transitioning to.
Also, I met her trainer, who it turns out is wonderful. This trainer is a dressage rider who has trained several horses to GP and who started as a hunter rider. She agreed with me about the feed and is going to talk to BO about it, as BO thinks this trainer is the bees knees.
All the horses here are two to a paddock, so that won't change. If Lilly ends up not being able to handle not having enough herd interaction, that will be a reason to leave, but I will give it more time before deciding on that one.
Lilly was much better yesterday about leaving her buddy, though. I am not sure this is true, but when she is on oil, her personality seems to change and she becomes less tense. Maybe that is it, or maybe you all were right and she is still getting used to it.
I am still looking for another place, but I am not in as urgent a rush to get out anymore, now that the BO has listened to my request and now that I find her trainer is someone I can respect.
Dr O, I still want to know whether I can add the IN Calvenza on top of the IM shot she just got, and when can I give it?
Thanks all, I will keep everyone updated as things progress, I have some leads on a few places.
Alicia
Member:
Hally

Posted on Friday, Dec 1, 2006 - 11:52 am:

Alicia,

My EPSM horse was also far calmer when he went on to his oil diet. I think not being so muscle sore totally changed his attitude.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Dec 1, 2006 - 9:14 pm:

after I eat a high fat meal I also feel calmer. :-) My horse doesnt have anything wrong with him I feed him a high fat diet for energy and calories when he is worked alot. It also gives him a calm energy, much better than lots of grain.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 7:24 am:

Yes there will be minimal increase risk of reaction after all many folks give these vaccines much more often that yearly. I would space them 6 months apart.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 10:08 am:

OK, so the decision has been taken out of my hands. She asked me to leave last night. When I asked why, she just said "it isn't working out". I had just said to a new person who had asked me why we couldn't ride more than 2 at a time in her huge arena "it's her place, her rules". Maybe that person told on me? Well, it is OK, I am going back to where I was before for now, and looking still for the ideal place for a horse that needs turnout, oil, frequent riding, and special feed. Hard to find.
Thanks for all your help, everyone, I will try next time to ask more questions about management as opposed to just questions about the facilities next time!
Alicia
Member:
Kstud

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 1:57 pm:

Hi Alicia, sorry to hear that it didn't work out but it is probably all for the best. Sounds like she was not the easiest to deal with or the most sympathetic to your horses needs (or yours). I'm sure something will turn up soon, best of luck.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 2:05 pm:

Alicia, she probably saved you a lot of aggravation. Good luck on finding the right new home for your horse.
Erika
Member:
Sjeys

Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 2:24 pm:

I've found that people like this are annoying but not stupid...I'm sure that everyone she doesn't intimidate she does end up asking to leave or otherwise making it so uncomfortable that they want to. Trust me, she's probably not got the world's greatest rep among other barn owners...you'll find that out as you look for a new barn. I wish in my job I could decide who I want to be around me and who not...sounds like a spoiled brat. :-)
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 8:58 am:

Alicia, she sounds like she is the "soup nazi" from Seinfield. Everything happens for a reason, so I am sure that you will find the perfect place for you and your horse. Good luck
suz
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 12:26 pm:

Susan J,
Yeah, I have heard from several folks since I moved in that she is not the easiest to deal with. IT is not a buisness to her, so she doesn't care if she pleases the customer.

I am deep in search for a GOOD home for my mare. I have many more calls to make. In the mean time, she is moving back to my trainer's barn (he is not the owner, but he is the main trainer). She was OK there, but the turn out is lacking, which is why I moved in the first place.
Thanks all!
Alicia
New Member:
Rangler

Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 1:34 pm:

Alicia,

For some reason I was thinking you are located in Maryland? If so, and depending on where in MD, check out Baywood Farms. It's a new facility on RT 2 in Harwood. They advertise in the Equiery.
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Dec 11, 2006 - 2:47 pm:

Kathryn,
I would love to, but it is 200 dollars more than any other place I have looked at. Plus, for that money, you get a maximum of 2 quarts of grain a day. Lilly needs alfalfa pellets, and a LOT more than 2 quarts of them a day! The place is beautiful, and other than the cost, would be perfect.
Alicia
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