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Discussion on Flipping a cast horse
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 11:00 am:
I have flipped cast horses before by using thick cotton lead ropes on their off pasterns and bringing them over where their legs have more room to maneuver.
Today I was told that I should never do that. The woman was surprised that I didn't know that I could twist a horse's gut that way, and she had us use ropes to pull her gelding around in a circle to move his feet away from the round bale feeder where he had gotten cast.
I know that colicky horses can twist their guts when they get to rolling, but I assume that it is because they already have digestive troubles (impaction, constriction, etc.) but horses roll all the time and don't twist guts.
I don't want to cause any horse more problems by flipping a horse if it is cast, so please, I'd like some feedback from Dr. O. and other members.
Thanks.
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 11:41 am:
I heard this is an old wives tale. Otherwise a horse would twist when they rolled to scratch their back.
Dr. O?
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 12:28 pm:
Wow, Holly I have never heard that before.. My filly , the one rehabbing, cast herself right there in front of me.. errrr... I went to get the soft lunge line and waited for her to quit the thrashing ... happy to report she righted herself..  But my plan was to use the rope to flip her...
Waiting to hear what Dr. O has to say too...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 1:01 pm:
Hmm, Holly, I'd think that moving the horse the way the woman suggested would risk other problems - you're now pulling the entire horse's weight around in a circle, against a wall/feeder. If I'm picturing this right, you could catch a thrashing leg the wrong way and risk further injury or put a lot of strain on whatever is tied to the rope. Seems logical to me that simply rolling the horse away from the wall is the easiest and safest solution and the weight & shape of the horse works for you, at least part of the way . As Linda & Ann said, horses roll all the time without twisting the gut.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 4:16 pm:
what is flipping a cast horse?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 4:50 pm:
LOL . . . good question, Patricia.
When a horse gets down and cast (meaning he is down and can't get up due to his position . . . like in laying down with his feet uphill or with his feet against a stall wall or with his legs stuck under pipe railings or a lower fence rail) I am asking if it is okay to put soft ropes around his off pasterns (the front and rear pasterns that are on the bottom) and pull him over onto his back and rolling him to the other side to have his legs going downhill or away from the wall, i.e., "flipping" him over. I want to be sure that it is a safe way to move the horse without causing his gut to twist.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 5:38 pm:
oh, that makes sense now. Good thread actually, something everyone should know. thanks.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 6:10 pm:
In some cases, say the horse is cast in a pipe corral and has their feet under the bottom rail, I've had success pulling them away from the rail by their manes. Granted it wasn't a huge horse, but there was no way to flip them over.
I've used this technique by myself on ponies and with another person on a full size horse.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 6:56 pm:
Oh my.. My smallest horse is 16'2''hhs and 1300 pounds..! Don't think I could pull him or drag his hind end .. My filly that was cast this week is close to 18 hhs tall now and all legs.. I usually let them try to work themselves out of it.. actually have to for my saftey.. and usually they get themselves in a position that they can right themselves or its easier for me to get a soft lunge rope under a leg to pull .. ugh... I HATE this subject, its one that scares me to death...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 8:08 pm:
Luckily it only happened to me once with Tony a shire x TB 17.2 and not only that but he got his leg stuck in between the bars of the window! But thank god we had safety glass; still I emptied a new shavings bed at 10.00PM in the middle of a snow blizzard arent horses fun!
I also thought that the right way to pull them was by using a rope on all four legs and rolling them back to get them unstuck like, actually it said so in the blue bible book of the BHS I would not think that they would get colic by using the ropes, but I have also heard that if a pregnant woman sees a snake at 5.00PM she will have a miscarriage...
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 8:16 pm:
You are funny Liliana!
I found a product to help prevent casting in a stall or run-in shelter that you can view at https://www.horseguardfence.com/pages2k/cat58.html
I have it in my run-in shelters as the thought on dealing with casting is horrifying.
I know the strip does nothing for out-door locations, but I can only do what I can do, the rest is out of my control. I do keep long cotton lines on hand for all types of emergencies. I've not had to use them as yet, but I'm so prevention/preparation oriented that I drive my husband around the bend.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 8:41 pm:
You have a horse cast, he cannot rise because of his physical situation. That leaves you two alternatives: leave him there the rest of his life or remove the wall of the barn. If you can rotate him fine if not roll him like Holly describes. Bowel torsion is a very unlikely event in such a situation and if there are reports of it, I would wonder if the reason he is cast is the colic from torsion was there first.
DrO
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 8:59 pm:
Thank you all for your responses . . . especially the funny ones, Lilian.
Thanks, Dr. O. . . . I was waiting for your response before I felt really comfortable saying that flipping a horse over was a safe practice.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 9:36 pm:
Dr. O.,
The response in my INBOX shows without the sentence "If you can rotate him fine, if not roll him like Holly describes." which shows in the post on Horseadvice.
Is it better to pull them around and rotate them, then?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 11:23 pm:
My old horse got stuck rolling in the manure pile/shavings that we use to store in their yard. They loved laying there because it was so toasty. He must have rolled uphill, and could not get up. The look of panic on his face, and mine I am sure, as I was alone at the time, was memorable. Not knowing what to do, I got my shovel and shoveled, and shoveled and shoveled, till the pile was moved away. He then straightened himself out, and got up. It is pretty scary, and of course I had never heard of such a thing.
These critters can get into more trouble, how in the world have they survived for so many centuries??????
suz
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 10:27 am:
Susan, good question! Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
The woman who said not to flip them must have read the same article I read not to long ago. I can't remember for the life of me where I read it, but it said to drag the horse around, etc. as Holly mentions. When reading the article, I remember thinking "no way." There is no way alone that I could move a horse by dragging it, and I don't have big horses! I have "flipped" them, however, with no ill results. I'd bet Dr. O's theory on the gut already being twisted would be right.
Patricia, you do immediately get a mental image of flipping a horse like an egg in a skillet, don't you? Did you ever read that list of "horse people" terms that make no sense to anyone else? Someone should find it and post it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 11:32 am:
Holly, I don't look at one as better than the other but there may be situations where one is easier and safer for you, and that is the one I would choose.
DrO
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 2:07 pm:
Clarification for those who are wondering just how strong one must be to "drag" a horse. It really is more of a rotating as mentioned by Dr. O.
"All" you have to do is move the front end far enough away from the obstacle so that the horse can roll up on his chest. The times I've done it, the horse actually helped.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 2:31 pm:
I've done it on quite large (16h2 horses) on my own with a rope. You have to do what you can manage safely in the circumstances - mostly I've rotated them rather than rolled them.
If it is not a colic I think you need to check the management situation. I sold a horse which had just the once in three years of ownership got cast on me - my management solution was small stable (but she was out during the day) with big permanent straw/manure banks and it worked. She is a chunky mare and I REALLY didn't want to have to try and pull her around myself again.
Her new owner keeps her in a large stable, in all the time in the winter except a small bit of turnout, but puts an anti-casting roller on her after she got badly cast on one occasion. Each to their own, this horse has a totally lovely life apart from the roller and she probably doesn't mind it.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 2:58 pm:
Thank you, Dr. O., and others for your added suggestions, experiences, and advice.
I mentioned to the woman that she might want to consider rolling the horse if she is alone and can get no one else to help her, and I gave her the last part of Dr. O.'s post in which he mentions that torsion of the gut is very unlikely.
Here is her response:
My three years of study in Vet Tech field from very experienced Vets do NOT recommend rolling a horse unless you have no other option. I have always been able to spin Reno. You may get away with it 8 times out of ten, but I am not willing to take that chance. We had special methods of rolling even dogs when they were under anesthesia and was a very serious matter. Torsions can happen due to the fact that when the animal is being rolled without his effort he does not tighten up his belly muscles as he would if he were rolling himself, thus leaving miles of gut loose to roll as it will. Colic is not the only reason a torsion can occur.Too risky in my book especially if you have another way of solving the problem. I know that all the older vets say just roll them, but the more modern suggestions are to ONLY do that as a last resort. Spinning is the preferred method if possible. Of course the most important thing is to get them up, but modern veterinary medicine always starts with the least harmful method of involvement in such things including restraint. Kind of like they way we now train horses, start with the least destructive methods and progress as needed.
So . . . I guess, I will follow what the situation deems most appropriate and what my strength and the horse will allow.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 3:55 pm:
Oh, I forgot to mention that I just read an article in EQUUS about caring for recumbent horses . . . and the author recommends rolling the horse every few hours . . . and doesn't mention any ill-effects of the rolling . . . and I'm wondering if that is because the horses aren't anesthetized, so the risk of a twisted gut is not likely . . .
and, Dr. O. . . . does your opinion mean that you are an "older vet?"
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Member:
Caroltd
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 4:07 pm:
Oh my...I wondered who was going to pick up on that one (LOL)
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 7:31 pm:
Carol, (giggle  )
I may be foolish, but I'm not a coward!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 6:49 am:
Definitely an older vet but hopefully not senile yet.
What you express her saying changes between your first and last post. Has she decided there are cases where a horse can be rolled? Despite her 3 years experience as a vet tech, I do not know of any evidence that rolling a horse that has become cast has much to do with horses getting bowel torsions. It is true that colicky horses do get cast. Her point of using the least harmful method is absolutely true of all situations we encounter with horses however I would think any experienced veterinarian would recommend choosing the method that is safest for the handler whether that involved rolling the horse or not.
DrO
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 8:38 am:
What she said to me when I went to help her (and I took two, thick, twisted-cotton ropes with me, and asked her to loop one of them around his front, "downed" pastern) was:
"You can't roll a horse, Holly. I'm surprised you didn't know that."
and I said that I'd done it before with success and done it with a vet, and she said,
"Well, I don't know what kind of vet that was. You can twist a horse's gut. You never roll a horse."
So that is when I came to HA to ask the question. Not only was I hurt by her tone, but I thought I knew how to help, and I was feeling pretty dangerous to horses if I thought I could help them by rolling them.
The quote from her in the latter post does seem to allow for rolling ONLY when rotating isn't possible, and seems to intimate that we're taking a life-threatening risk by rolling the horse. If a downed horse isn't under anesthesia, wouldn't it tighten its gut when we roll it?
Just want to know what is best to do. Also, this woman is dealing with an old horse that has gone down several times . . . he is 30+ years old, her first horse, and she just can't see putting him down, yet. She is often alone when she finds him down and is dependent upon neighbors and boarders to come and help her rotate him. If she really needs to get him up when there is no one around, I think that rolling him would be easier (he isn't a very big horse) but I don't know if she'd take the risk of rolling him or not . . . probably so, as she says in her paragraph above that "the most important thing is to get them up."
Anyway . . . just want to do the best for my own horses as well as others, and being an educator, I don't want to give faulty information to my students or clients.
Thank you.
When we all go senile, Dr. O., I think we may have to rename this site . . . until then, I think HORSEADVICE is a perfect title and "the place to be" when we aren't out doing hands-on work with our equines.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 10:56 am:
Holly, I think you are very responsible and would never intentionally do anything to hurt a horse.
Any situation needs an assessment, I found a cast colt at a facility I used to board at. The colt was wedged in a corner of the pen (the pens were built in a 4-square configuration with aisles on the outside egdes) there was no way to spin him, it was either leave him there, wait for a cat to put the corral apart, likely hurting him in the process or flip him. I flipped him.
If the only way to rotate is to pull a back leg back I think that would cause muscle injury.
You have asked for advice from a respected professional; now safety and common sense must prevail.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 12:26 pm:
Oh, I know I wouldn't intentionally hurt an animal, but sometimes we do things in ignorance, and I really felt kinda ignorant after this woman snapped at me. I was thinking that maybe I'd missed some new discovery about rolling horses. I had never thought of rotating a horse before. Maybe the situations I was in with them wouldn't allow for it, so that is why I ASSUMED she wanted us to flip her horse over to get his feet away from the round bale feeder.
Anyway . . . a bit of philosophising here now:
Firstly, my mistake was ASSUMING that I knew what she wanted to do with her horse. I'd only ever seen horses rolled, done it that way myself several times. When I saw her horse down in snowy, muddy hay, with his feet a little uphill toward the round bale feeder, my mind pictured, right away, how to get that horse away from there . . . by rolling him. One thing I should have learned by now is "NEVER ASSUME; ALWAYS ASK."
Secondly, I have learned something new . . . that horses can be rotated . . . and I have also learned that there is little to no evidence that twisted guts are caused by rolling a horse . . .
so I am coming away from this experience feeing more secure in how to deal with a downed horse, thanks to all of you who have contributed to answering this question.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 12:34 pm:
If I had a penny for every time my gelding flipped over while rolling I would could afford another horse!! He is one of those expert rollers, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth . . . . . . until he is coated like a Shake and Bake dinner. He has never (knock on wood) even went off his feed and he has been doing this for 13 years.
I think Dr O. is right, it is those few instances where the reason the horse cast itself is because it was already colicing.
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Member:
Sondra
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2006 - 12:37 pm:
Prevention is key folks. I have a horse who was always getting cast - talk about constant owner apprehension. Usually he'd get himself up thankfully. My solution was to get those anti-cast bars (sometimes called safety strips):
https://www.northcoastmarines.com/anti_cast.htm
So far they have worked. So to me worth every penny.
It can help to bank the stall. But for it to be effective you have to bank high, like 3-4 feet. You can also line the walls with bales of straw - some racehorse barns do this.
I have never felt comfortable moving a horse that is cast. For one, you risk injuring the horse's legs/feet/neck, depending on your method. Not to mention I'm not Arnold Schwartzenegger so trying to pull them one way or the other is usually useless.
As for cast horses and colic: colic or mild colic happens to be a reason that some horses get themselves cast in the first place. That is, the colic existed already. Another catalyst for horses that get cast sometimes is back pain.
So, what I've learned is that prevention is key, and looking for any potential reasons for continual casting is key. If a horse gets cast repeatedly and never changes its behavior, there could be something else going on (aside from being a dumdum, hehe).
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 8:06 am:
I've had to flip (with my husband) quite a few horses. It seems 1/2 of our babies get cast a few times before they learn. I usually can pull them around myself.
We had one horse with all four legs through the fence. The lower legs were under the bottom board and the top legs over the next board. It was quite frightnening. Luckily, it was Bub and he trusted us to save him and just stayed perfectly still while we folded up his legs and flipped him over. Actually he was a horse that got cast more than normal in the beginning. But he was funny, he would just wait for us. One time he wasn't really stuck. He was close to the wall but we could tell he could get up on his own. He kept looking at us to get him up....it was silly.
My other horse got in a similar predicament stuck through the fence boards and I knew we couldn't help. He wouldn't stay still enough. He kicked and kicked until he was free and up. I use no climb fencing now and they can generally get themselves unstuck on their own.
I saw my old trainer un-cast a horse by pulling it around by the tail-----ouch! We've always flipped them.
-B
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 10:08 am:
Im one the those old fashion people with dirt floors in thier stalls. Over the years they have developed quite a dip in the middle from scooping out wet spots. It has made the equivalent to backed sides. I usually fill the hole with the pelleted bedding to make the stall somewhat level but I dont seem (knock on wood) to have horses get cast.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 11:31 am:
Oh btw, I did a bit of digging on the subject and something I did not know is that if horses stay cast for a long period of time then they can get colic, I guess stress related.
But as someone mentions, prevention is always better than the cure, make sure the bottom bar of the fence is not too low, make stables and pens are big enough use breakable materials as much as possible ( ones than will not splinter of course).
As we all know there is a little Houdini in each horse!
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 22, 2008 - 10:52 pm:
Today we were leaving for a clinic when we DrOve by a paddock as my friend noticed that a horse was cast on the fence. She was thrashing and boards had broken. In this situation while my friend calmed the very startled horse, I attached leads below the fetlock joints with safety release knots. In this situation it was hot and she could have been hurt and we were not strong enough nor was she in a position where anything other than flipping would have worked. Because I remembered this post and Dr. O's statement that you have to make the best decision for the circumstances we rolled the horse, quickly stepped away, up she came and she trotted away as the leads came undone then trailing on the ground behind her. It was textbook. She was fine. I thank God as it could have been worse, she was an older mare, it was 90 degrees in the heat of the day and she was cast far from shade.
Thank-you HA for the wealth of knowledge that I have gained since becoming a member in 2005. When you read a post about someone else in a situation with their equine you never know when that information is going to come in handy. This was posted in 2006 and in 2008 I still remembered it and therefore was able to make the best decision for the situation.
Horse Advice continues to be the best money I spend each month as the return on my investment has been priceless. Thanks Dr O and everyone on these boards!
v/r
Corinne
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 5:21 am:
What a lucky horse! Well done!
Jos
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 2:40 pm:
Good work Corrine! Knowledge + preparation and an emergency situation = best outcome. Yes, I agree, this site is wonderful. I have been around horses all my life and yet I am continuing to learn so much from Dr. O and everyone's combined knowledge. Thanks for sharing such a fine example of how Horseadvice and good people make the world a better place. Certainly made a difference for the mare you rescued!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 9:07 pm:
Way to go, Corinne, my hero!
I'll pin a merit badge on you when I see you in Kansas this weekend!
Erika
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 10:08 pm:
WOW - I hate when that happens - I must of done something terrible -
Anyway - i typed a response and lost it!!!
anyway I wanted to say I do that kind of stuff all the time - hence the reason I am in this Post right now. to look at the HOW cause ya never know when you will be driving down the road or coming out at lunch time to find yours or someone elses horse is cast like that.
so Now _ i know to keep soft cotton ropes handy for just that occasion!
Major WAY TO GO girls!!!
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 10:43 pm:
No Badge needed Erika I am in it for the wine. LOL. We will finally get to raise a glass and toast all the years triumphs! Anyway, yes Muffi Thank goodness every place around here leaves the halters and leads on the fence. I did have to get extra in the barn as we had to use one on each leg as the downhill legs were sort of twisted and just pulling from them would not have worked but we all pulled on the count of three with equal weight and gently like you would log roll a patient onto a backboard. I have to admit I was rather impressed with the horse, she was thrashing, thrashing, until we got there and Thank God my friend looked her way. Once the old gal knew we were there to help her she stayed completely still did not fight. I would gather the youngsters would be the most dangerous as those legs flail or perhaps a draft in a smaller stall. It was just perfect. 
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2008 - 10:52 pm:
Okay, I'll pin a wine cork on your chest then, and arm wrestle you for the bottle!LOL!
I'm so excited to talk horse without glazing everyone's eyes over! Teehee!
Kansas here we come...have rope, will flip!
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