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  Discussion on Mash Causing Ileum Blockage?
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Member:
Longhorn

Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 9:56 pm:

Doc O, I read the article on the overview of forage and didn't get any answer. I had an equine masseur work on my horse today and he said that the ileum is frequently blocked (partially) and that one of the causes could be feeding mashes. We feed our boys soaked alfalfa pellets that comes out like a mash and he thought this might be a cause for partial blockage. No emergency or colic, just some lower back stiffness. Do you think mashes may cause such a partial blockage?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2006 - 7:18 am:

Your horses masseuse is diagnosing ileal impactions from the existence of some lower back stiffness? Laura, you know better than this, there is no relation between his findings and what is going on in the ileum.

As to the relation of feeding soaked alfalfa pellets and ileal impactions I don't believe there is any. But is there a reason you soak it?
DrO
Member:
Longhorn

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2006 - 10:43 pm:

Oh dear, no. I'm sorry, I wasn't detailed enough in my explanation.

The masseur wasn't drawing that conclusion just from a tender back. He had been working on the horse from the head down and was palpating under the belly way up behind the sheath and said he could feel a blockage (right side of the horse only). Not a complete blockage, of course, or the horse would be colicking. He said when it's blocked, it's like when we're constipated. When the horse tenses from the cramping, it causes a sore or tender lower back.

I decided to supplement Bermuda hay with the alfalfa pellets just to add a little variety and more protein and carbs for nutrition. We take a scoop (one pound dry weight) of pellets, put them in a bucket, and cover them with about 3" of water. By the next morning or evening (we do it twice a day) the pellets are softened to a mash consistency. It's easy to add the HoofRite, HA, glucosomine, Select II, and Vit E and Selenium to the mash then.

I liked the idea of feeding this little bit of mash especially in the morning after an 8 or 12 hour fast because I figured a moist, mushy feed would be gentler on the digestive system especially on an empty stomach. If they haven't been drinking at night (which they usually don't) and the feed is dry hay, I thought there could be a bigger chance of impactions.

I took my masseur's question about the mash to mean that since the mash is more condensed, the horse may tend to bolt it where it would clump in the intestine and end up backing up in the ileum whereas regular hay would may get masticated in smaller amounts and help to clean out the intestines as it heads on out.

So is this so much BS, Doc, or what?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 6:41 am:

Laura, this is a whole lot of horse manure. You cannot palpate the ileum or any abdominal structure, including the much larger and firmer large intestines, from the outside. This is a lack of knowledge of anatomy in combination with what could, at best, be described as self delusion. I also find the speculated pathogenesis of the back tenderness very unlikely. What are the symptoms of this problem?

The coastal is more likely to be associated with impaction but if it is the best quality hay available certainly should be continued. The alfalfa is a good supplement for coastal hay as it tends to be low in protein and calcium and you may certainly continue your mash to help with mixing in supplements. But are all these supplements really necessary Laura? Perhaps their use was a compensation for the low nutritional quality of the alfalfa that could best (and more economically) addressed with just a bit more alfalfa?
DrO
Member:
Longhorn

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 10:07 pm:

Thanks for The Word on the massage and palpating thing, I will take it to heart. Strat was generally sore and stiff all over, head, neck, shoulders, lower back and rump mainly from my own neglect in exercising him and his partner. Just touching him at his pole, withers, mid and lower back and rump would cause a flinch or shudder. I retire on January 5 and their lives and mine will definitely change, you can bet on that! I figured a good massage wouldn't hurt anyway.

For issues I feel are more serious, I call in the pros. I've got a veterinarian who's also an equine chiropractor coming out next month to check out Bennie's hind end potentially for a sacrum adjustment. We'll see what he says.

Bennie gets the most supplements for his arthritic hocks (verified by x-ray) and his bad feet. I give him Vit. E plus selenium, glucosamine and HA (orally). His feet have always been bad, thin walled, shelly, and soft so I give him Hoof Rite. I give both the horses Select II which my regular vet recommended because, with the exception of the 2 pounds of alfalfa pellets a day, they get Bermuda for forage, 15 to 16 pounds a day.

In our area Bermuda and Alfalfa are the same price per bale, about $12. If I were going to save on anything, I'd cut out the Select II since it's strictly a nutritional supplement and not intended to mitigate conditions like arthritis or poor feet.

I've always thought that forage fed as many times a day as practicable is the most natural thing to feed horses who are forced to exist as contained, domesticated animals. I haven't been exercising these guys enough to feed them really "hot" feed like alfalfa so I tone it down with the Bermuda. I don't care for alfalfa as the regular form of feed since it's a legume and wild horses don't actually graze on alfalfa, they generally graze on grasses, don't they?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 11:36 pm:

Laura, for what it's worth, the Select would be the last to go in my book. If you are unsure of the vitamin and mineral content of your hay and feed, I think a good vitamin/mineral supplement is important. Lack of the right minerals and vitamins will show up first in the feet and coat. I've used Select either I or II for about 20 yrs. I've always liked it because it was the first that I knew of that was keyed to the type of hay the horse was eating and as I get hay from various sources and am not always sure of the vitamin etc. content I felt they were "covered" by getting it.

There are some good hoof supplements out there, Select makes one of them but there are several others, that combined with the basic vitamins should give Bennie plenty of the B vitamins (esp. Biotin), E, and selenium. I'm just thinking it might make life easier and cheaper if you used one of them instead of supplementing individually. Also, if you don't live in a selenium deficient area, I'd be careful about supplementing it.

Last year when one of our geldings had some serious issues with his feet and also developed ringbone, I did a lot of reading on this site and in other places regarding supplements. I imagine you have, too; and if you haven't you should. It's pretty educational.

It amazes me how many supplements are out there which are supposedly for horses with arthritis and joint problems, yet when you read the labels the balance between additives and the amounts aren't enough to do much good. I was "mixing and matching" several different products trying to get the right amounts of each thing. It finally dawned on me it was much easier and cheaper to feed a good vitamin supplement along with Consequin for the arthritis.

Again, for what it's worth, I think you're "right on" feeding several times a day. It's much more natural for the horses than one or two big meals. When able to graze horses will eat off and on around the clock.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 7:05 am:

Laura,
I agree we all enjoy a good massage now and then. I remain skeptical about the indication for, effect of, and medical value of spinal adjustments in horses. These procedures are not supported by any regular body of medical or veterinary research and therefore considered experimental. Though they have co-opted many terms from human chiropractic, the two disciplines are nothing alike as the human version is based on radiography. When equine chiropractics are debated because their terminology does not jive with what can be actually known and with what is possible we are told that is because the words don't mean the same as in traditional medicine. We have had the president of the veterinary chiropractic medicine as a member and you can see an involved explanation of the procedures and debate between Dr Allen and me at Member's Services members_only » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistemology » Chiropractic » Discussion on Equine Chiropractic Principles.

There are several common legumes in the wild that horses will preferentially graze: clover and wild lespedeza come to mind. Alfalfa is very similar to these and I am sure wherever it grows wild, horses will graze it. Alfalfa is an excellent compliment to lower protein hays as they are often marginal in calcium too.

I have a little different take on vitamins and supplements than Sara and believe that as long as the forage is of moderate quality or better with some green to it, vitamin supplementation is unlikely to be of benefit. When feeding poor quality hays or addressing a specific illness I use a human product as the storage of equine products may be prolonged and under less than optimal conditions. Also equine products are not reviewed for content by any official body. All other supplements need a specific indication for them. For more on this review Nutrition Overview.
DrO
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