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Discussion on Trimming the bars? Yes or No? Why?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 24, 2006 - 8:23 pm:
I'd like to get all of your opinions on trimming bars... I've heard not to trim them ... and I've heard that they can become impacted - actually seen a picture of a cadaver hoof with impacted bars. I'm wondering if maybe this is why Brave got so bad when the wedges were put on and got a little better when they were taken off... Here are some pics from today, right front:
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 7:37 am:
I am not a professional, but my horse gets sore if I trim them. He needs them. However if they grew way to long I would trim a little. I think horses need them at least mine does. I don't think yours need to be touched looking at the picture.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 8:25 am:
Thank you Katrina, I've been emailing with a barefoot trimmer, following are some of her responses to me (with her permission):
1.I think he has a lot of bar up inside the hoof capsule and that's what's causing the ouchiness. There's a great pic of that in a dissected hoof. Once you see it, you'll totally understand why impacted bar caused navicular symptoms.
2. Yes, getting angles right is good, but conventional treatment has it backwards. By raising his heels, they actually worsened the problem. Some people have this idea that the problem is really the tendons and ligaments and thus try to release the pressure on them. If you really study the anatomy of the hoof, you will realize this is all wrong. What they most likely did by raising his heels was push the bar even further up into his hoof capsule.
3. So, yes, in a sense, it is bruising. It's a simple way of looking at it. The overgrown bar is bruising the corium. The bar is really the problem. That little mare that was put down that I told you about? That was what her problem was. It broke my heart to know that she was put down and it could have been fixed really easily!
4. By carefully trimming the bars every few days. What will happen is that as soon as you give them room to descend, they will do so rather rapidly. Some trimmers don't believe that bars can become impacted like this, but photographic evidence is pretty hard to deny!!!! A lot of trimmers/farriers won't touch the bars, which is why we see a lot of this kind of thing. You can also see that his hairlines are pushed up on the side shots... another clear indication of too much bar... it's pushing the lateral cartilages up.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 8:30 am:
She makes sense to me... maybe I'm wishing for an easy fix... but that's why I posted here. Brave is bruised on his bars right now.
Would it hurt to try this? Just to see?
She did say you all would think she was crazy 
Merry Christmas!!!!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 9:04 am:
Hi, Aileen all I can do is speak from my experience. My old farrier did not trim bars and he thought a high heel was great. I can't tell from the pic, but I do know an over grown bar made mine sore.
Remember if you are going to try the barefoot route it will probably make him a little sore no matter what. It took both my horses 2 mos. of hobbling around until they were 100% sound.
There is no easy fix for the long toe, underrun heel thing, except a good and balanced trim frequently, and alot of patience
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 9:41 am:
LOL Diane, I don't have any more patience But since the farrier consultant suggested barefoot, and he's going to be off for a year anyway.... I'm still waiting to see what the surgeon said. Just digging for info I guess.
How did you trim the foot to ease the sore bars? Does Hank have heel?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 10:20 am:
Hank actually has a low heel, somewhat like Braves. With getting the toe back and giving it a good roll it is starting to grow up rather than forward. His bars weren't too bad. His long toe and under run heels did him in.
My other two tend to go straight up and with the old farrier they were two ins. taller. Their bars were a mess and I did see relief when they were trimmed up. He also said the high heel gave relief to the tendons, which is hog wash in my opinion. Mine were always sore with the high heel. These 2 are a work in progress also, but so much better. Their bars were so over grown and folded over that rocks got stuck in them. I can see where high heels for injuries would help, but for my horses it aggravated their arthritis and just seemed to make them sore all over.
My new farrier is making me learn patience, When he pulled Hanks shoes, He said NOW don't expect him to not hurt a little for awhile. He was sore for awhile and I panicked and of course had to get Dr.O.'s opinion. Overall tho he is doing better, without shoes. I am not a barefoot advocate, but for Hank And Sam barefoot with the correct trim ( and loosing weight) has made them sounder than shoes and a poor trim. Patience
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 10:28 am:
Thank you!!!!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 11:12 am:
Aileen, are we still talking about the hoof in the first pictures. That hoof looks pretty good, as much as I can tell from those photo angles.
IMHO it is good for a horse to be taken off shoes for part of the year, even better if they don't need shoes at all. I was also taught as a rule of thumb the heel and toe should have a 1:3 inch ratio, ie a three inch toe and one inch heel. Of course this isn't absolute just a guide. I was also taught to trim the bar along with the sole, but only as little as necessary.
I'm all for barefoot horses, but I'm not in agreement with many trimmers that advocate deep cuts soring the horse and then let them suffer through it. I think making many small adjustments over several months allows us to better follow where the hoof wants to go rather than forcing the it into something we think as ideal.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 11:19 am:
Aileen,
I don't think she is crazy.She is probably right . Each barefoot trimmer goes by what experiences they have learned from. , each horse id different. what works for one will not work for another. I have had 2 barefoot trimmers. Both total different ideas except for the obvious, low heal short toes and rolling the edges. One that cut the bars to the sole.and one that is in partnership with Pete Ramey, She says not to touch them unless they are over grown. I think they are supposed to be slightly below the sole. My horse needs at least an 1/8 below the sole for hoof support. When the old trimmer ,trimmed to the sole he could not walk. He was also bowed in the knees and could not lock them . He was walking on his toes and looked like he had navicular. So I guess it seems that each horse needs a different approach that works for them. I am lucky though the rocks that my horse is on trims the bars. I do trim them if they look like there is too much. Mine has a rock crunching barefoot hooves.
I would listen to the trimmer, but I would also e-mail a few more for different thoughts. I did that with my horse. I think I e-mailed about 7 . They all replied and gave me great input. good luck with this
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 11:52 am:
Thank you all!
Now for another question, would I be a bad mom if I didn't wait for the surgeon to reply to take him barefoot?
He's walking around - not ouchily at all, but it could be bilateral - but his stride is good not short at all, not depressed... silly even. I did not bute him this morning, but he did have bute last night.
Farrier is coming tomorrow at 8 am pacific time. So I need some input before then. Of course I can't call the vet today
My consultant said the other day that if I do keep him barefoot, all the farrier would need to do is round the edges a little. I don't believe he is a bar trimmer, but I could be wrong...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 11:55 am:
Also, the foam pads fell off yesterday so he's been on his bare feet since yesterday afternoon.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 12:10 pm:
Aileen - It's really easy to tape the foam pads back on - I'm getting really expert at it I've found that Gorilla tape - although very expensive - works the best. It also takes way less than regular duct tape. I ran out of the styrofoam so used carpet padding - worked great - maybe even better than the styrofoam.
CK
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New Member:
Srfotog
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 2:01 pm:
Gorilla tape is gaffer tape from the movies. The grips use it to tape lights to booms, etc. You can get it at any photo store. I use it to tape poultices with the baby diapers for abscesses.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 2:22 pm:
I've heard a few horror stories of cutting into the bars/or cutting into the heel crevice to help open up the heel to ultimately lay the bars out properly. ala strasser or others...
just follow your gut on these things. and do it in mini steps.
anyone can convince you that their way is the right way, just keep learning about it. I had a long road of understanding. And still don't always understand the mechanisms of it all. And sometimes its because there is so much conflicting advice it just gets confusing.
My old barefoot trimmer would not touch my horses bars. he was an AANHCP trimmer and they are notorious for that, plus i was getting flares and other problems associated with them NOT touching the bars/areas of sole/etc. Now this trimmer i have now will. But i rarely see him need to or feel he needs to. My horses look a little laid over to me and i think that is what happens when they aren't trimmed at least a litte. If they grew higher than the point of contact then folding over or growing back inward sounds valid. Isn't the point of pressur of sole right at that outside quarter? towards the heel? and if it is too high would logically force it back in towards the corium. If the bars aren't higher than the point of contact than the pressure there would be off, allowing it (hopefully) to correct itself. Unless something else is at issue too.
In your case why not try a little and see if it gets better or worse. (do you know if your horse is a big baby? or stoic) I know my horse well enough that if she is in pain, she truly is in alot of pain, not like another of my old horses that were ouchy when they just saw a rock. So that also helps me in my decisions, she will tell me in no uncertain terms what just happened was the wrong thing to do.
the points your trimmer make sound reasonable, kind of like a human with a bad hangnail, it starts to grow where it shouldn't if you don't keep it trimmed properly. I wouldn't let her try anything though until you fully understand it.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 4:03 pm:
Our local Walmart sells Gorilla tape as does ACE Hardware. It wasn't that much more than Duct tape.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 5:46 pm:
Well Aileen if he looks good barefoot I say go for it! The bute may still be helping some and if tomorrow he still looks fairly comfy before the trimmer comes, he should be ok.
If the pads fell off yesterday and you don't notice a difference then leave them off. Try to keep him on semi-soft footing til his soles toughen, and try to keep him on at least a 6 wk. trimming schedule.
Hank was actually more comfortable with the shoes off, once he adjusted. Well that's my input Let us know how it goes with the trimmer. In the pic above it doesn't look like there is alot to trim.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 7:28 pm:
Aileen I forgot to add, if you decide to leave Brave barefoot invest in some old Macs or something similar. They are great for riding on hard ground, and even those days when he is a little tender. Worth every penny! I have had mine for 5 yrs. now.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 9:34 pm:
I just went down to feed and he was bucking, cantering about. I did see him take about 5 trot strides with his head as high as he could carry it... so I'm assuming he still has bilateral lameness... but if he felt good enough to have a small rodeo... all this without pads or bute since last night. I offered him bute tonight and he wouldn't take it, I offered him ulcerguard, and he said "yes please!"
Jojo, my vet calls him "Mr. Sensitivity" ... in an endearing way of course ... but I have to wonder if he's really very stoic. My vet also said that Brave is a special case, something to the effect that there is nothing "textbook" about him...
I have the Gorilla tape It worked for almost a day... I just didn't tape him back up since he moved almost the same without the styrofoam.
Thanks to all of you for your input!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 25, 2006 - 9:41 pm:
Diane, I don't know that he'll need boots! But we'll see what happens I hate to go against my vet ... I wish I could call him. I may just play it safe and just put the shoes back on for now and pull the hinds.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 6:32 am:
Aileen do what you think is best. Does he seem better without shoes? Can you try barefoot for a week or so as an experiment?
My old farrier said Hank could never go barefoot again. The vet said try it and see! So it scared me to do it. I posted to Dr.O. a couple times before doing it, as I was terribly scared.
Whatever your decision Good Luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 7:12 am:
Heel bruising is a common event in horses but I do not know of any evidence to support the idea of "impacted bars" as described above and the photo of a dead piece of horn does not have any relation to proof of a pathological bruising process Aileen. This is just the way this part of the horny part of the foot is constructed.
I have not found any post mortem studies that conclude the corium in these areas are found chronically bruised in horses with histories consistent with chronic heel pain and there are a lot of these studies out there. I must also say concerning that the idea that many of the common disorders of navicular synDrOme do not involve the flexor tendon, navicular bone, and impar ligament is just plain nonsense and runs counter to those same studies and the newer work involving better diagnostic techniques including navicular bursal blocking and MRI.
Bars should be trimmed back to healthy sturdy horn if they become overgrown as demonstrated by a overly long weak flimsy nature. This happens most often when horses are kept of very soft ground. If they are not they will fold over the sole just lateral to them and there they trap dirt and moisture.
DrO
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 7:55 am:
Dr O, I am not sure if you were referring to my post when I mentioned he (looked) like he had navicular. I did not mean to imply he had that. He did not of course have navicular. His foot was at the time off balance which stretched the tendons a little I think ,and had severe heal pain from trimming bars and frog too much . I just wanted to clarify that. I agree that navicular is diagnosed as you state. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 8:31 am:
Thank you Dr. O! I'll keep his shoes on the front and off on the hind until I hear from the surgeon.
I was sent the following link, I thought it made sense.
https://hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line_disease.htm#Navicular
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 9:09 am:
Interesting article Aileen, I hope all goes well for Brave! So many opinions is what confuses me the most. In the end I think whatever seems to make the horse comfortable is the way to go. They all have to be different for SOME reason! Flash had high heels and was toe walking, she wouldn't weight her heels at all. With our slow rehab she is now landing flat and hopeful for slight heel first in the next few trimmings. Her arthritis doesn't seem to bother her 1/2 as much. Good Luck.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 9:43 am:
Thanks Diane, Brave hadn't been landing heel first for years, I had never thought anything of it Until I found out on this board that heel first landing is paramount. He has been landing heel first since September, with a bobble from November 21 to dec 10 (landing toe first most likely due to the wedges), even barefoot he's landing heel first so at least I think NOW we're on the right track.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 9:53 am:
My question would have to be, out of curiosity if he is landing heel first barefoot, what makes you think he has heel pain?
Could it have been the wedges or shoes? I would be very tempted if I was you to leave him barefoot and see how it goes. As I said I am not a barefoot advocate, but reading thru your posts he seems much better barefoot?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 10:16 am:
Yes and no. Nothing is easy with my horse ... lol.
When he trots straight, he's definitely lame barefoot. When he trots straight in shoes he's sound. He'd rather walk or canter either barefoot or in shoes.
I'm not saying I won't try barefoot the next shoeing, I just want to hear what the surgeon and vet say first. My main argument (I say argument because the vet has already told me he should keep shoes on the front) will be that he lands heel first barefoot as he does in shoes.
I'll have the farrier watch him walk to make sure tho...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 3:46 pm:
Not landing heel first either barefoot or in shoes... took the hind shoes off.
He wasn't bruised on his bar either, it must have been dirt. Here are some bad pics after trimming.
Right front sole
Left front sole
Farrier thinks that since he didn't change his way of moving either barefoot or with shoes, it may not the hoof capsule at all...
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 6:18 pm:
Well beings we are learning together, couldn't that stretched whiteline and what appears to be flare be making him sore?
My vet said as long as Hank had a stretched whiteline and flare, that he has a compromised foot.
He said the flare put more pressure on the whiteline and continues to stretch it. The new farrier also said this and removed 1/2 his flare the first time and the rest the next time. He then put a heck of a roll on him. That is when his whiteline started to tighten.
I know Braves whiteline has gotten much better, but it looks like it is still stretched, so until that tightens he has a compromised foot right? I don't know. Dr.O. is that correct?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 8:48 pm:
Good question and thoughts... one other thing, would going barefoot worsen the white line stretch and flare? Would going barefoot help or hurt his progress with the underrun heels?
I know I posted above about the farrier saying she didn't think it was in the hoof capsule, I did not walk him in the arena, I did it in his turnout. So it wasn't on soft footing, isn't soft footing lameness indicative of soft tissue issues?
My head is SPINNING!
Dr. O, in your spare time (ha!) could you have a look at this website and tell me what you think?
https://www.johnthevet.com/bars.html
https://www.equinextion.com/id37.html
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 9:19 pm:
Now here is something my vet said that I didn't really know what to think, but it does make sense in an odd sort of way.
He said that Sam and Hank (both shod) with stretched white lines, would do way better barefoot if they could tolerate it, because with their toe first landing (due to poor trimming) every step was putting pressure on the white line.
The nails and the rigidity of the shoe would just keep tearing it. That was a very thought provoking statement I must say. He explained it a little better, but in a nutshell that's it.
He has nothing against shoes,but thought for the white line stretching and flares my horses would do better barefoot. Hanks under run foot is 90% better already, and Sam hasn't moved this well in years...honestly. They are still works in progress. I ride Sam in Old Macs if on pavement.
Vet said not to expect miracles overnight as it took years to get them this way, but both are well on their way. Hank will still walk around kinda gimpy on hard frozen ground, but he did with shoes on too. Actually he is less gimpy without them.
My head spins too!!!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 10:16 pm:
Thank you Diane!
I fully plan on giving him a full year off with no expectations of soundness barefoot or shod. But the barefoot people have really got me going now... the "what if's" that are going through my mind seem to be endless...
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 12:17 am:
I have been following this trying to learn a little, and my head is also spinning, esp. after reading some of the farrier sites.
One question that kind of bugs me although it isn't related to your main problem with Brave - the comments re: Hand and Sam who are "landing toe first due to poor trimming." What kind of poor trimming would cause a horse to land toe first? Am I wrong in thinking a horses' natural way of going is heel first? It just seems like it would be almost hard to get a horse to land toe first instead? Or am I not thinking straight? (It is past my bedtime!)
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 6:21 am:
Sara, they had long toes and when they walked their toes would dig in first. It also made Hank very trippy.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 7:06 am:
Aileen the reason your head is spinning is you are trying to solve the problem backwards. You believe that by reading stuff you can figure out why your horse is lame. By doing this you can only find out what kinds of things make horses lame and you will find many theories.
But this is not the way to solve such problems. Instead you first accurately localize the pain, and then try to visualize the pathology, only then can you create a list of possible diseases. Until then there will be dozens of probable theories, hundreds of possible theories, and thousands of crack pot ideas and if you try to explore each one....well you know what happens.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 7:57 am:
The voice of reason Thank you Dr. O. We're still waiting on the surgeon... you know me, patience is not my virtue.
We DO know it's in the heel, blocked sound. What we don't know is if he's lame from the bony changes or soft tissue...
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Oct 15, 2007 - 9:45 am:
Aileen, how is your horse now?
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