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Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 8:37 pm:

"A Seville, Calif., woman convicted of starving more than 80 horses on her ranch north of Visalia was sentenced to 10 months in county jail.

A Tulare County Superior Court judge also prohibited Sandra Werner, 61, from keeping any horses during the three years she is on probation.

In August, sheriff's deputies found 82 malnourished horses and several dead ones on the ranch where Werner lived. A veterinarian said the animals appeared to be 300 to 400 pounds underweight and had been living off inadequate amounts of low-quality hay.

Werner pleaded no contest in November to 16 charges of felony animal cruelty and sold the horses. Her attorney, James Wilson, did not immediately return calls Thursday."

From TheHorse mag.


Well, one person got convicted. Let's see what happens to the one in the SE with the Arabs.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 10:40 pm:

16 charges of FELONY animal cruelty and she gets all of 10 months in jail. Better than nothing I guess. They do seem to be prosecuting more though don't they? But why should she ever be allowed to own another horse?
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 12:52 am:

She deserves 10 years and NEVER owning any animal of any kind.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 7:59 am:

Well, I suppose it's progress, but I agree that she should never be allowed to own another animal and that the sentence is too lenient.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 8:05 am:

While there may be simple greed and callousness toward the suffering of the animals and therefore prosecutable criminal behavior my personal experience finds that many of these people are mentally ill and when released from custody repeat the behavior.

I have seen it with horses, dogs, and cats. They cannot see the harm and suffering and believe they are all that is standing between their animals and death. These folks may respond to education, counseling, and a good dose of antidepressants but there must be a legal injunction against owning more than a few animals again. The local sheriff needs to check in occasionally and unexpectedly.
DrO
Member:
Hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 10:04 am:

Amen,DrO... having run animal hospitals and companion animal rescues for many years we developed a simple and obvious caveat..."Beware the collector" we created a program to identify clients with an excessive # of pets, trained receptionists and vet techs in engaging clients in conversation to identify the collector prior to the vet meeting them in the exam room. Perhaps this reaks of profiling, but as Dr.O clearly states, this is a mental health issue and one cannot treat the pet without treating the human any more than you can expect to deal rationally with an irrational human. That would be little more running in place. Dehydration, malnutrition or worm infestation in companion animals may be the symptom, but manic depression or bipolar in the owner is more often the disease driving it. They mean well, and see themselves performing a service that society has neglected but are themselves lost in the cracks of that society. Our anger at them is a by product of our inability to save them from themselves. Every one of us knows someone on our radar who is, if not actively wound up in this, then on the perifery. We all own an obligation to vigilance and compassion. People so often comment to me "How can anyone do this or that to an innocent animal??" GET REAL! If they can do it to their kids, how is it a shock to our social conscience that they do it to animals? There are those of us who are entrusted with treating the symptoms and those of us who are expected to treat the diseases. In my experience,the courts generally recognize this as a mental health issue, but rarely have the capacity to deal with it as such.
Coming down off the soap box now. Sorry if this feels like a lecture. It hits an old familiar and frustrated nerve.
Member:
Peggyr1

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 10:16 am:

We recently had the same happen in our county. All the horse vets pitched in and brought most back to health. There was a sale on the county courthouse and all went to good homes. We had another recent incident where the abuser was a woman vet. She said they weren't starved, just a little under weight! I believe this was her 2nd time around. It's really sad.
Member:
Jmarie

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 10:40 am:

Cyndy, I wish all vet clinics and legitimate rescues would launch a similar program. I know a "collector" here with nearly 120 cats (up from the 20 she had when I first met her twelve years ago) in a 2-beDrOom house. No only has she not been shut down; she's been granted tax-exempt charity status as a rescue so she can accept donations! Apparently there's no inspection involved in the approval process. In my opinion, housing healthy "rescued" (in quotes because often she simply answers newspaper ads) cats with the feral variety which often test positive for FIV and lukemia is abuse in itself, yet the vets send her homeless cats and call her to do feral cat retrievals. The odor in the house alone suggests a bacterial level beyond redemption, yet the health department, when contacted, saw no problem. I talked to the vet who takes care of the cats, and though she voices concerns about the situation, she continues to participate in sending cats there. No animals are ever placed in homes from this rescue effort. They are, however--and to her credit--all neutered through BARKS. Obviously there's an official agenda being followed that does not have the animals' best interests at heart.

As a public school special ed teacher, I was always on the lookout for hints that the kids were abusing animals. We know from the research done that abused kids abuse animals, so it was always a good starting place for an investigation.

Sometimes people are just too crazy to be allowed free rein over domestic pets. I agree completely with Dr. O that mental illness is often the root of the problem when abuse of any kind is evident. Sadly, pets really don't have anyone effectively advocating for them. At least not here.
Member:
Hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 12:47 pm:

Joanne,
We know more than the fact that abuse breeds abuse... the kids who make it past that filter and grow up abusing animals graduate and accelerate to mind boggling criminal violence. Their need to prey on the helpless spotlights their internal view on their own predicament. That initial abuse is more of a flag than an isolated act. More likely it is the tip of a frighteningly dark iceberg. Keep watch. You are not only saving that child, you are doing inestimable good in prevention of harm to others in his future.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 2:35 pm:

Our neighborhood cat collector has inundated us all with feral cats--they poop on my hay! Many of them are injured or very scarred from tangles with something.

Again, back to that spay/neuter issue!
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 2:54 pm:

Have been sitting here trying to find a way to gentle say something and gave up.To he** with the mental illness excuse ! I've been a teachers aid and a vet assistant so have seen much I never wanted to...my sister in law has been involved with child welfare for years and the ONE GREAT common denominator is responsibility on every level! These horses did not starve over night we all see things out of the corners of our minds and keep on walking ....many of us are trying to speak up for the abused kids, horses, old people and anyone who needs someone to notice their pain.Cyndy wish more awareness such as yours was out there. Joanne as a teacher congradulations many don't want to look too close they might see a problem and become involved! At least our latest case of horse abuse led to jail time and no more ownership. The little girl who's mother beat her in the DQ parking lot wasn't so lucky she went home to mom! If we live in this world we NEED to take great care it and all the creatures there in , ourselves included....... Cindy
Member:
Jmarie

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 3:23 pm:

Cyndy, you're absolutely correct. Animal abuse is almost always a precursor to violent adult behavior. Both spring from antisocial personality disorder and/or narcisism, which are very difficult to cure.

Cindy, mental illness is not an excuse, just an explanation. I hear your frustration and anger, and that's fine, but the point I was making is that these things have been reported and gone unaddressed by the authorities. I could (but won't) tell you stories ad nauseum about cases of child abuse, animal neglect and abuse, and downright criminal behavior that have been duly noted, reported repeatedly, and ignored. I was married to a PRS (that's NJ's Protective Services portion of DYFS) worker who was beyond depressed by his inability to make any headway within the system. It was his job to go, accompanied by armed troopers, into homes and remove children. Nine times out of ten they were returned to the homes within days.

Let me share one disturbing tale. My small-animal vet and dear friend noticed on her drive home a horse standing in an otherwise empty lot with a lean-to for shelter and random chunks of chain-link fencing propped against trees for containment. No food. No hay. No water. Pastern-deep muck. She called a mutual friend who did horse rescue, and she and I went over to take pictures and check the horse. A full report was filed by the vet and by us.

Weeks went by. The calls and reports were repeated. The owner of the horse was finally located and contacted. She DrOpped off five bales of hay and a bucket of water. The hay rotted where it sat. She was contacted again and told to worm the horse and get shots done or it would be confiscated. She did those things, and that, as far as the authorities were concerned, was sufficient. No amount of complaining and fury made any difference. The horse finally disappeared, presumably moved by the owner.

So it's not just a matter of keeping our eyes peeled and standing up for the animals. It's about where the roadblocks are and why. I like your philosophy, but you're making an assumption that there aren't folks out there trying hard to rectify these situations. Sadly, it's not all Animal Cops. We have nothing in place here for humans or animals. I live in the state where the family services department of Law and Public Safety is under a total overhaul because they're just not responding. If we can't save humans, what're the odds there's something meaningful we can do for the animals?
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 4:01 pm:

The problem IS frustrating - helping abused children and/or animals. I too have first hand experience calling in the authorities for neglected horses, and although sympathetic, in both cases, the authorities did not remove the animals. I wanted to tear my hair out in frustration. However, please never stop trying. DrOp off a bale of hay, leave fresh water, rescue that stray cat and give it a home in your barn...whatever you can do...each life saved and improved, each bit of suffering reduced, each road fatality prevented - it all adds up to make our world a better place. Doesn't always seem like much, but I have to believe that those random acts of kindness to the helpless have to make a difference.
Member:
Jmarie

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 4:21 pm:

Amen!
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 5:32 pm:

Yes Fran thats what I would love random acts of kindness would that one would lead to another! Joanne my point was exactly what you said, the people in charge are not. A little child lies in a grave these many years because the authorites kept givimg her back to her abusive father until the day came the phone rang and a voice said " we are sorry to tell you but the foster child you were caring for was killed by her father this weekend ".I have yet to forgive which is my problem. But it has made me VERY aware to the abuse of any living thing. The people who are suppose to protect more often than not don't nor does the legal system support the ones that try to help that is why my anger comes to the surface when I see 80 horses went " unseen" for so long. Cindy
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 8:07 pm:

It is all very frustrating. If only everyone could somehow be educated in animal care/child care...whatever it is that they want to have. But if some course or random inspection or probationary period was required before someone was allowed/licensed to have children or animals, can you imagine the outcry because their right would be violated! And, I would probably be "outcrying" right along with the rest of them, because I don't believe the government at any level should have that much control over our lives. However, I do believe that their needs to be a lot more awareness and neighbors, passersby, etc. need to not be so reluctant to get involved and speak out.

Of course, one of the bigger problems is lack of budget and personell to do followup on reported cases.

We complain about animal abuse, and some of you have rightly pointed out that child abuse is rampant also. We need to all be aware and not be afraid to be involved.

Boy, this could expand into a long and heated conversation on politics, economy, etc. Isn't one of the signs of problems with a civilization the abuse of children and animals? When rats are really crowded and stressed, they start killing their young and fighting with each other.
Member:
Alden

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 9:10 pm:

I'm in no way defending animal abuse. But, I know for a fact that the influx of non-rural folks, and the labeling of horses as pets, is causing people grief here in W. Colorado. One poor guy has sold all his horses because of harassment from his neighbors. The sheriff had been called repeatedly and all investigations found no abuse, just livestock. But the repeated trips to town to defend his self got to be too much.

I don't know the answer. Sometimes the logic is comical, I personally know folks that are religious about their horses being barefoot because 'mustangs have the best feet in the world' but are horrified that my horses don't have a snug warm barn for snowy days. But I've yet to see any mustang barns out on the plains.... So just who needs education? Go figure.

I'm almost anti-government so I guess I'd prefer education, for horse owners and the general public. But I fear advocating stiff penalties because more and more I don't believe the folks doling out justice are educated, or my peers.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 1:49 am:

Govt. is not what is needed they can't help themselves and if the world goes to hell there will be no help from that quarter for sure! And Alden you are so right people who don't understand animals can jump up and down and be completely wrong, my mustang would laugh at a barn/stall he just looks like a Yak in winter. But it does take a village .... yes Sara the book is King Rat and it should be required reading. Cindy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 8:57 am:

Whoa guys, you think children and animals have it worse off now than in the past? You need to read your Charles Dickens and Upton Sinclair! [Note: Sinclairs politics only lead to greater abuse but his powers of observation great.]

You who are reading my post are living in what is the easiest, most prosperous place and time of all time to be alive. Just the fact that you can sit around and worry about the condition of others, as opposed to just keeping you and your family alive, is a relatively new human condition.

Take a break from worry and rejoice in how lucky you are! Pay homage to this luck by helping others, you fill find it easier with the positive energy you gain by putting aside this powerless lamenting. Let's quit moaning about how awful things are, it lacks ....uhhhh... perspective.
DrO
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 9:22 am:

Amen Dr. O.
In all these animal abuse cases, I wonder how many people have stepped up to the plate and offered help. We just might be surprised to find a receptive individual on the other side. I wonder this because I have never offered the help myself. I was too busy lamenting as you say.

DT
Member:
Jmarie

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 10:18 am:

DrO and Dennis, you are so right! As bad as things might be, my father has told me stories about his childhood (he's 90) that would curl your hair. And none of it was considered abusive, neglectful, or even sad!

Even a decade ago, no one would have predicted a state-run TB retirement facility like the one in Kentucky. When I first started teaching in 1971 the IDEA (Individuals With Disabilities Act) that resulted in 1974 in the birth of public special education wasn't even in the works yet, and "special" kids were housed in bunkers out of the public eye. Now the pendulum has swung and everyone is "special"! Extremes are our forte.

Know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see a certification program--a basic course in horse-keeping--that all prospective owners have to pass before they can purchase or adopt a horse. I'd also like to see required parenting courses. What're the odds? I'd say slim-to-none. We are a nation of civil rights and personal irresponsiblity. A lethal combination, but not something that's likely to change overnight.

That's not to say we shouldn't still be vigilant and do our best to help where possible, but DrO and Dennis are right on the money. Have faith in the baby steps. They all lead somewhere better eventually.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 10:44 am:

Here in MI, it's good for animals (from what I've been aware of) but another story for the kids. Good or not so good depending on what side of the fence you are on. I've heard stories (and personally known the people) which involved horses that were just left to fend for themselves. It was reported and they were almost immediately taken to someone else. The problem, the someone else, just happened to have friends in all the right places so to speak. Makes ya wonder why that person got the horses? And again, my opinion, they weren't much better off.

As for kids, here any child can scream abuse, and get protection! We experienced that first hand (long painful story) and as said above, here we went to the other extreme. As parents we had NO rights.

If one of our kids were to go to school and say they got a spanking,(neither my kids or animals get spankings btw) we could very well get a phone call or visit from the authorities!! It's very frustrating! I agree with what DrO says, and also agree that it's a mess with government involved. It seems you have those who turn the other cheek, and those who want to help so much that common sense goes right out the window.

As for things being better, yes they are. I've heard stories from my 87 year old grandma who grew up in an orphanage. You DON'T want to know how kids were treated then. She won't even talk about some of it to this day.

In many ways, I am very content to stay in my own little world here, and protect my family. Pets and children. I feel like you can't fight the whole world, as in government, lawyers, etc., and win, so the heck with it.

I think anyone abusing animals or children should get a dose of the same, then taught a better way. Of course some of these people have been treated that way which is why they do what they do, others just lack education.

A step in the right direction is our schools here are teaching basics for life, things like balancing a checkbook, and some of those classes where they carry a "baby" around for weeks to see what that is like. It won't teach love and compassion, but it's a start I feel.
Member:
Jmarie

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 10:53 am:

Angie, I actually had one of my students file a police report stating her mother had abused her when no such thing had happened. The kid told me all about it, laughing, but I was never allowed to testify. A restraining order was issued against the mother, who was beside herself. The girl was just angry that her mom wouldn't let her go out. My neighbor's teenaged daughter cracked her mother's skull with a dog gate for the same reason. Case went to court, and no punishment was forthcoming. Now mom is afraid to say boo to the kid.

Like you, though, and despite other not-so-happy endings, I know that many animals around here are confiscated and new homes found if the people involved know which strings to pull and when.

Seen from the inside, this can be a really wacky place to live!
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 12:18 pm:

Alden, you make so much "horse sense." My Mustang and my Arab prefer to stand out in the howling wind and snow than in their shelters. And they look like red bears. Maybe every "educated" person could help our government with this overabundance of unwanted horses (and not all "wild horses" are Mustangs) by adopting one instead of breeding more horses that will end up unwanted because they don't fit a breed standard of "perfection." Neither of my horses is perfect, so they could probably both be considered rescues...but in my eyes, they are perfect and will be with me until their or my last breath.
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