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Discussion on Aluminum...
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 12:54 am:
Recently we have done hair samples on a few geriatric horses that are about 27 years of age.
The results came back with extreme aluminum levels..
We began giving them malic acid (present in sOUr apples)among other nutrients that were customized for their needs. Their personality changed, for the better, they seemed to be happier. Also one of the mares have had a balance problem as well as chronic inflammation in one of her hind legs... after the supplemental treatment she regained her balance when trimmed, her swelling did not come back until now (she is now being taken care of my monster-in-law)...
My question is.. due to the questionably high aluminum amount in the environment, could it be that it is mainly coming from the well water source?
I have had my hair sample done with the same company (Uckele) and the results were similar to the horses - aluminum - amount, but a little lower. My monster-in-law has some form of dementia as a result of aluminum in the environment. (My LOVEABLE excuse)
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 1:33 am:
Hmm...I'll be interested in this. I've read a lot of different opinions on the reliability of hair samples. Does it just depend on the lab? Have you had the water tested? Because we have well water, we test it annually due to all the crop fields around us. What would account for the aluminium in the environment? Just curious. Does it just occur in the soil in some areas like we have iron in our soil?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 1:35 am:
btw...I've read several recent people health articles that state how important apples are in our diets. Apparently, we should all be eating at least one a day, and I know our horses would be happy to join us!
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 2:32 am:
Aluminum in water is not normal.. we have an industrial area near Canada that processes aluminum... although I am not sure if that is the culprit of it.
Hair samples are quite reliable.. of course, one cannot dye their hair in order to get a reliable result. So if you do, dye your hair, make sure you'd wait a month or two for roots to grow out.
Hair samples, unlike blood samples, collect poisons/'radicals' over time. Blood samples come and go, and they are not usually reliable.
Similar story to Napoleon's "poisoning" with Arsenic.
When it comes to apples, it has been known for quite some time now, that these fruits help "people live longer" due to their fiber content. You may notice, that an hour or so after consumption, you might become unusually hungry again, or have an "empty" stomach. Apples aid very well in digestion of every mammal.
I've had the water tested, and there certainly is a abnormal amount of aluminum present - we will, sometime in the future, have another well drilled.
The soil... rain... anything and everything might be the source of high aluminum levels.
We live in the Adirondacks, and it just might be our poor luck.
I was just wondering if it happened to someone else on this forum..
Sara - which labs did you hear negative feedback about?
Uckele is a more recent company that deals with nutrition for most common mammals, like ourselves and our pets. We've had great results with the recomendations of this company, and our farrier praises and sells their products as well. It boils down to common sense - let's say treating thrush or similar hoof conditions requires copper.. internal/oral supplementation of copper and zinc will make a horses' immune system more resistant to such conditions.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 9:03 am:
Nastia, what were the aluminum levels in the hair? Be sure to include the units with the numbers.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 10:16 am:
I've just read in different articles that hair samples weren't reliable, no particular labs were mentioned. There is more to apples than their fiber that makes them healthy. I just recently read something in a nutrition mag, I'll try and find the article as I found it interesting.
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 5:48 pm:
Alright.. the analysis is done in Mg/100g
One of the mares is a 13.8 high in aluminum while the acceptable/normal range is between 0 and 1.5
The other (her roommate) is 6 high in aluminum on the same safe non-toxic range from 0 to 1.5
Their thyroid function is very low.. and there seems to be prolonged toxic stress throughout her body. She is also high in iron which is an indicator for chronic inflammation.
Some of the other crucial findings:
Calcium is 85 - should be 200
Magnesium is 16 - should be 50
Sodium is 2 - should be 50
Potassium is 5 - should be 45
Low Na/K - sensitive to sugar.
High inflammatory stress.
Etc... etc..
This horse, however, I do not own, like I have mentioned before, there is a battle over inheritance with the mosnter-in-law, and horses are unfortunately stuck in between a rock and a hammer.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 4:43 am:
Concerning the validity of hair analysis, it really depends on what you are looking for, how carefully you test, and (as applies in this case) what you use for your set of normals. The composition of the hair is effected by nutritional status and has been used to investigate some chronic toxicities but the technique has a huge capacity for misuse. From a post in March of last year:
In the research I can find on levels of these in healthy horses both iron and aluminum can be considerably higher than 15 mg/100g and your levels fall well within the ranges of this report. J Vet Med Sci. 2002 Jul;64(7):607-10. Concentrations of toxic metals and essential minerals in the mane hair of healthy racing horses and their relation to age. There are some age effects on levels but if there are healthy horses out there with levels of these minerals 3 times (300%) higher than what your horse has it seems unlikely that this is a cause of illness.
Concerning the other findings Nastia and the metabolism of these minerals in the body, I find the conclusions unlikely. We have discussed hair analysis and aluminum toxicity in other posts, running a search either together or separately should lead to lots of interesting reading.
DrO
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 1:29 pm:
DrO..
The horse does not look healthy.. never did.. she perhaps looked more muscular, but still has chronic inflammation in her hind legs.. lack of balance and such. I cannot imagine that being a some sort of disease for the duration of time it is in.
Age has a big role in hair analysis, that is right, though for some reason she was doing much better on her custom supplements.
We usually take hair samples that have recently grown out, so there is no correlation with how long,over a period of time, she was exposed to aluminum. I'll try to find the possible amounts of aluminum in horse shortly.
Thank you 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 6:42 pm:
Nastia, yes and you have also fed and cared for this horse as well as you know how. Perhaps the horse is finally turning around from all of your good care. Some run down guys take 6 months to turn around but the aluminum hypothesis just does not hold water. The levels found by the laboratory in your horse are below that often found in healthy horses in large surveys. So let's move it way down the rule out list and find out what is really wrong, if we can.
One of the first things I notice looking at your profile is you rely for 2/3rds of your deworming program on products that have resistance (mostly the Panacur) problems and do not effectively treat larval cyathostomosis, nor do you use anything effective against tapes and the rapid rotation suggested in your profile promotes resistance. Even if the others are fine, there is quite a bit of variation is individuals sensitivity to parasites or have habits that predispose them to high levels. Fecals if not done properly can be unreliable. For more on all this see the Deworming topic in the Care section. Start with reading the Overview article then the Schedules article to see what might fit you. You didn't happen to deworm with Quest in the past 6 months prior to the improvement did you?
I would like you to review Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. It gives clear guidelines to follow that are very effective.
DrO
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 7:13 pm:
I deworm the horses with the mentioned wormers gradually and as they need it, I do not keep a specific schedule of when and which product to use. I also KNOW that they will grow resistant to many if abused in treatment.
For tapes, I also use combocare by farnam.
Zimectrerin gold is another one that I have used before for deworming.
I dewormed the rain rotted horses with quest when they first arrived - the next day, I have seen tons of adult female pinworms in the manure.
Recently those "unreliable" hair tests have been accepted by a few state and considered health evidence... then again I question the validity of such tests myself.
The horse in question has been having toxic problems for years.. I just came into the picture recently. In fact, about a month ago, the horse could not get up for four hours due to some woman farrier. The horse is not doing better and it never did, she, under my care, just increased in muscular density and overall appearance... her sense of humour is the worst.
Some labs, I am aware of the fact that it might be the Uckele lab as well, tries to fool people into purchasing expensive supplements. So far, I don't go out of my way, to overdose my horses on vitamin/herbal supplements - besides - I don't do it for myself.
DrO, I am sure that you realize that I am not about to follow every recommendation of everyone who can speak... and I certainly do not tolerate tradition all that well, unless proven. I prefer information to be unbiased, and I strongly dislike people who follow one's opinion... which at the end, is very similar to the environment that they all grew up in.
I will read your recomendations.
Thank you DrO
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 7:15 pm:
By the way the reason why I joined this forum is for the reason or need to EXPLORE
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Member:
Nastazja
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Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2007 - 8:16 pm:
Cyathostominosis - so , DrO, you would rather prescribe oral D'wormers at a higher dose for such condition...
Although I cannot recomend a check-up for that chronic sweller that I mentioned above...
I can only do it on my horses, which seem to finally begin to turn around. It is very likely, DrO, that these horses, based on their history, might have such problems - no symptoms as of yet though. I can understand why Panacur might be useless if abused in the frequency of exposure to horses.
Thank You DrO for the insight !
I'll quiz my vets with it. ;)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 9, 2007 - 6:31 am:
The point of my posts above Nastia in not that these tests do not accurately reflect hair mineral content, though they must be done carefully to get accurate results. My point is that your aluminum level results fall within the norm of large surveys of horse hair aluminum levels (I give the reference above).
The poor doing of this individual would be the number one symptom for parasitism and many parasites are already resistant to fenbendazole (Panacur). Also important is the consideration of whether the dewormers get the larval forms.
DrO
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 10, 2007 - 8:17 pm:
I want to thank everyone for this thread...I have learned a lot
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