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Discussion on Fiber & fat horse diet
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 11:08 am:
Hi Dr.O. My horses are on their winter reduction diet, which consists of about 40#"s of decent quality hay and 1/2 lb. of lite balance pellets, this is split into 2-3 feeding a day. These are more pony sized animals, 3 of them.
For the last several weeks they have been eating their own feces, cow feces, and branches off of trees are being stripped by them. They act like they are starved! I decided to get some beetpulp (high fiber)and see if their odd habits would end. The geldings turned up their noses at it...much prefer cow and horse feces, but the old mare loved it, I have been giving her a cup soaked morning and night. Strangely enough she isn't eating the feces anymore, but the boys make quite a meal of it. It would be impossible to pick up all the feces, is there a health risk to this? Especially the cow feces? They are wormed on a regular schedule. In the warmer weather I harrow, but now it is too froze. Should I up their hay and risk them getting obese again? They are turned out 24/7 on approx 15 acres with a little grazing so this shouldn't be boredom. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 4:47 pm:
I forgot they also have a salt and mineral block, plus they get accel vit. supplement.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 6:35 pm:
Diane, I'm just curious...is that 20# per horse?
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 7:22 pm:
Sara, it is #40 split between the 3 of them per day, so around 13#'s a piece. I have seen these guys do this before, but they seem to have become obsessive about it. Before they would "experiment" then quit altogether.
The horses just got weighed today and they are slowly shedding pounds, but still overweight. Hank needs to shed about 100#'s yet and the mare and other gelding need to loose another 75#'s to be a 5-6 on the body weight scale. I would rate them all a firm 7.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 13, 2007 - 8:15 pm:
Definitely a sign they would like more forage Diane and possible protein. Procure a clean but very stemmy, not quite straw, grass hay that they can have continuously. First try adding the hay to what you are feeding and if they start to improve condition start removing the better quality hay until they stabilize. Or better yet excercise them a bit more.
Their bellies will get a bit bigger, but watch their condition. The concern with such a diet is the protein. It always amazes me how little protein easy keepers can get by on but if we go off the current hay completely I would consider small amounts of a very high protein supplement.
I would suggest you follow our vitamin recommendations, it is cheaper and almost assuredly better. It is in the nutrition section.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 6:33 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I tried the free choice hay that was stemmy and looked like straw. It was first crop, over ripe timothy. They gained weight quite quickly. For their size they are getting almost 2% of their bw in hay. I will start giving them an extra leaf of the 1st crop in the afternoon and see if that helps. excercise right now isn't possible, the footing is to dangerous.
From experience I know getting their weight down in the winter helps greatly in reducing the chance of spring founder. Their "good hay" is about 1/4 alfalfa does that help with the protein issue? Also as mentioned above, with the addition of beet pulp Flash quit eating the feces. Coincidence? or could beet pulp have something they are lacking? Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 8:33 am:
They chew partially because of a psychological need to chew and partially because of the lack of feeling of roughage in the bowel, something called "scratch factor".
Also there has been an observed association made that horses on low protein diets will eat their stools. Alternative forages like beet pulp may provide the extra chewing and scratch factor they need. However beet pulp is high in calories and is alfalfa. They create a situation where you cannot feed enough forage in the form of stemmy hay to satisfy the horses need to chew without causing obesity.
It was not the stemmy timothy that needed reduction when they gained weight but the higher energy beet pulp and alfalfa.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 9:47 am:
Just a correction Dr.O. when they gained the extra weight on the "poor quality hay" The were not getting the good hay or beet pulp....that is a recent addition. I will search for something that is high in protein and low in carbs. I use to feed them nuta-flax which is 45% protein I think. I will consider this if the additional hay doesn't help their nasty habit. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 - 9:51 am:
Also I just thought of this, the cows are on protein barrels, would that explain the horses obsession with the cow feces?? Would there be extra protein in there feces? Hmmmm
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 6:05 am:
Once you are down to stemmy hay Diane and still in a weight gaining mode, you are left with 2 choices to maintain a moderate condition:
1) Decreasing forage running the risk of problems like you have now.
2) More exercise.
Maybe a out building with a hot walker is in your future?
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 15, 2007 - 9:12 am:
I went and got one of those 20% horse protein blocks (without molasses) I put it out yesterday and they worked on it for awhile. I took it out for the night, and put it back out in the morning. We will see if that helps.
If we could afford an out building it would have an indoor arena! Thanks Dr.O.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 8:10 am:
What are all the contents of the block Diane?
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 9:26 am:
I was wrong it does have molasses in it! They don't seem to be attacking it like candy so it must not have much. They are still eating the feces, I have upped their "poor quality hay". It has gotten much colder and it snowed so the extra hay should be o.k.
Yesterday the geldings dug thru the snow to get to the feces! It is froze solid and they just happily chomp on it. Here are the ingredients of the block. According to the directions they can have 3lbs a day, They are not close to eating that much. When I can get to a bigger feed store I will check for something different. We don't have much around here.
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein, not less than 20%
Crude Fat, not less than 1.3%
Crude Fiber, not more than 6.0%
Calcium (Ca), not less than 3.0%
Calcium (Ca), not more than 4.0%
Phosphorus (P), not less than 1.0%
Salt (NaCl), not less than 12%
Salt (NaCl), not more than 14%
Potassium (K), not less than 0.5%
Iodine (I), not less than 33ppm
Vitamin A, not less than 30,000 I/U lb
Vitamin D3, not less than 5,000 I/U lb
INGREDIENTS
Dehulled Soybean Meal, Salt, Cottonseed Meal, Cane Molasses, Monocalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Mica, Vegetable Oil, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Sulfur, Cobalt Proteinate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Iron Proteinate, and Sodium Selenite.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 4:15 pm:
Hi Dr.O. well the boys aren't poopscicle eating today at all Could the protein block make a difference already? After their hay they usually chomp about 1/2 pound each or less off the block then leave it alone the rest of the day. I take it out at night, for fear it would be gone in the morning. In retrospect, I guess their diet is low protein, I would have never dreamed that would make them eat feces. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2007 - 5:13 pm:
I had to google the cow feces and protein thing because that still blows my mind. From my research it says on average dry cow feces has 17% crude protein.....Very interesting. Our cows get extra protein supplementation so theirs may be even higher. I never stop learning here!!! Thanks again Dr.O.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 6:10 am:
I am uncertain if it is this supplement Diane or the extra hay you mention giving yesterday. Though protein is always in the back of my mind in such conditions, I have always solved the problem with extra hay alone.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2007 - 6:51 am:
We'll see Dr.O. I only gave them 2#'s extra of the not so great hay. They were out and about as much as usual. I do not want to up their hay anymore than that, unless it gets extremely cold. Spring is around the corner, and I try to slowly remove their excess weight. If they keep leaving the feces alone, I wouldn't mind giving them some kind of protein supplement. Do you know of one other than alfalfa? That block is a pain and it is hard to know for sure how much they are getting. Thanks
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 20, 2007 - 11:09 am:
Hi Dr.O. This fat horse dieting proves harder than I thought. I have made some observations lately since the addition of the protein block, and the beet pulp (with molasses)...just Flash gets this (28ish yr.old mare.)
It would seem all the horses are more satisfied, both phsicaly and mentaly. So much so that I notice quite a difference. The feces eating has completely stopped! I have not added much more in the form of hay....2#'s "bad hay" is it.
A couple questions pop in my mind regarding this. Is it possible to give fat horses to little in the form of carbs? Considering the addition of molasses to their diet (the block and beet pulp).
I did read the nutrition articles and it would seem my horses diet lack carbs ....on purpose, and protein.
Would I be better off giving them a feed that is higher protein and carbs? or just finding a protein supplement? This is what their total diet consists of. I would appreciate it if you could help me tweak it if needed. I don't want to add alfalfa to the diet, Hank gets footsore on it and the old girl gets diahrrea. It also seems to add the pounds quickly.
Horses and age
Flash 28..retired 13.1hh pony...body score 7
Sam 18...not worked much in winter..14.1hh arab...body score 7... prone to spring laminitis...no rotation.
Hank 9.... not worked much in winter...15hh...body score 7+...prone to spring laminitis..minimal rotation (would like to keep it that way)
Horses fed as a group outside, I think Hank gets more than his fair share. Regardless they are all fat, he's just fatter! I have no way to seperate them for their hay at this time.
Morning
1 flake of Good quality grass hay about 3#'s each
1/4 # lite balance pellets...low carb, 12% protein
1 flake of "not so good hay" about 3# each
Flash also gets beetpulp about 1# when soaked.
I really don't want to up their hard feed if possible.
Afternoon
1 or 2 flakes (depending on weather) of "poor quality hay" 2#'s each
Evening
1 flake good hay 3#s each
3 flakes "bad hay" about 5#s each
1/4 lb. lite ballance pellets
1# beet pulp...Flash
Acel vitamin supp.
Joint supp.
Access to protein block 12 hrs.
salt, min. block 24/7
water 24/7
According to the weight tape sessions they are loosing weight slowly and still need to loose more. I'm afraid if I add more "good quality hay" the weight loss would end. I do ride Hank when weather and footing permits. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 22, 2007 - 5:37 am:
The stemmy hay has all the carbs they need Diane. I don't think beet pulp has a place in this diet as it is high energy and low protein nutrient.
DrO
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