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Discussion on Need HA members imaginations
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 11:38 am:
My 28 yr. old girl has been having problems getting her back hooves trimmed again. The farrier hasn't been able to do them the last 2 times, up til early Oct. she was doing REALLY well. The vet said it was probably the cold aggravating her arthritis. Bute nor banamine help. He said the only option was to tranq and lay her down, which I really want to avoid. A sling is really not a viable option.
Her problem is when you pick her hind legs up she automatically draws them up under her belly and starts spasming (alot like shivers). So holding her leg low is not an option either!
Last time the farrier was here I asked him if I could dream up some kind of platform for her to stand on so her hoof hung off, if he could trim her then. He said he thought he could. It would have to be something I could walk her on to.
So this is where I need your imaginations...and I know you have them! Any ideas of some kind of platform I could have her stand on? Thanks for ANY suggestions.
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Member:
tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 11:47 am:
Would one of those hoof jacks help at all? That way she'd be able to rest her leg, and not have to hold it up.
Nicole
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 11:51 am:
Do you have any floored, standing stalls in the barn? Sometimes I've seen 2x6 boards placed on top of cement and it has an edge where it meets the aisle.
How 'bout having her stand in a stock trailer with her hind foot "hanging" over the back edge?
Only works with a step up trailer.
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Member:
dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 11:53 am:
Could you just walk her into a step up trailer and let hind leg hang over the edge. That should be high enough for the farrier to work, but not require her to lift and bend her leg. Just a thought.
DT
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 12:10 pm:
Hmmm the trailer idea is good, unfortunately it is full of hay.
Nicole the hoof jack wouldn't work because soon as she lifts her leg it goes straight up under her belly and shakes. Then she almost falls over unless I make her walk forward.
I don't have stalls, but I was thinking of something along the lines of those bean bag throw games. Maybe I could have her hang her leg over something like that.
I was picturing walking her forward over it but, like the trailer idea if I backed her maybe that would work? THANKS got my mind thinking in a different direction!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 12:36 pm:
Maybe a couple of reinforced pallets with a solid top? We have done this for our horse tire feeders, and the horses have been known to stand in them so they do hold up..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 12:58 pm:
At my barn, one of the arenas has a trailcourse set up. To simulate a bridge, the owners made a very simple wood box which is large enough for a horse to stand on comfortably, or walk across in about 2 steps. It's made out of some type of durable hard wood and is about 4 inches high off the ground. For your mare, I would think building it up perhaps 6" higher would allow the farrier to work somewhat comfortably and hopefully allow your mare to step up without too much trouble.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 1:21 pm:
Thanks Fran, I have to wonder how easy it would be to get her to hang a leg? I could practice, but I don't have a lot of confidence she would do this. I think soon as the farrier started she would snap up the legs.
What I would like is something that she could remain standing, yet the edge of her hoof would hang off. Clear as mud right! Something is on the edge of my brain, but I can't quite grasp what it is. Old age sigh.....
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Member:
sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 1:42 pm:
My old girl does the same thing. I trim her myself little bits at a time. I have found that she is the most comfortable with her leg up under her belly rather than anywhere behind the vertical. I lift her leg, let her do her spasming(I assume she is saying ouch ouch ouch ...). Then she eventually relaxes with her hoof almost on the ground but about 8-12 inches ahead of her normal resting position. Any kind of hoof stand is too high for her and I am not sure having her leg hang lower than ground level would be any more comfortable.
It is kind a trust thing I have built up with her. She knows it will be uncomfortable, but she also knows I will let her find the best position herself. Then I will help her hold it for just a few seconds while I take a little toe off or level the heels. I always make sure her hoof is wet so I can rasp more quickly and I dont torque her leg with the rasp.
I am curious what your mare does when you pick her foot up to clean it? She is probably telling you where it is most comfortable.
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Member:
mcbizz
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 2:16 pm:
Diane, we made a platform by nailing together two big railroad ties (nail them together at the ends with short boards)then filling in the "platform" part with dirt so it meets the top of the ties. This gives the horse about an 8" DrOp on the downside and solid but not hard surface to stand on the upside.
It also makes a nice step-up for practicing for a step up trailer.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 2:47 pm:
Shelley up until now that's what we did with my mare, she would finally relax her leg down and find a "spot" she doesn't do that anymore. Instead she starts falling over with her leg still under her belly. I don't pick her back feet usually, there are days I can do a VERY quick pick. I just clean them while they are up in the air. It's like her leg gets stuck there until I move her off.
Otherwise she seems very comfortable, she gets around well, keeps up with the geldings. She gets up from lying down fine. When she goes to lay down she don't bend her back end down very well and kinda flops. The vet said he don't think she is in pain for her daily rituals anyway and she is doing better this winter than last. So far in the warmer mos. she is much better about having her feet done. She hasn't had them done the last 2 times, so hopefully I can get them done this time. I may start doing hers only once or twice in the winter, as they don't grow much anyway.
Carolyn that is a good idea. Thanks
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 3:25 pm:
Hi there,
Please excuse me if I repeat any info, I have not yet read the whole thing. BUT I was just thinking...Scarlet had a similar thing when she arrived, the minute I picked her off hind she would throw a terrible wobbly in panic and sweat, well you know how it goes. With her it turned out that she had hurt her back somehow, so I could only lift the leg literally about an inch from the ground and let go when she asked for it.
Admittedly it took me some 20 to 30 min but now we have no problemo!
So do you think she may have twisted her back maybe playing especially if the ground is slippy.
I know is not really what you asked for, but sedating her and getting her on the floor I really think you’d regret. They tend to panic after that for what seems an eternity.
Just a thought, but going back to your question, perhaps a high porch or veranda …
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Member:
sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 3:46 pm:
Poor thing . . !
I guess I better watch this thread cause my mare is probably headed for the same fate eventually. Luckily my girl needs very little trimming, I do try to keep them fairly clean because I know if she gets thrush or a stone bruise it will be doubly hard to treat.
I think it is also just that they get so weak behind from muscle loss due to just plain old age. When my mare goes down to roll I some times wonder if she is going to crack a rib cause she flops so hard. That would be another reason you might not want to sedated your girl.
I do have one idea. how about a very short version of a hoof stand, say about 3 inches off the ground. That way you could just get a rasp around the edges and she could still put some weight on it for support and/or balance.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 4:27 pm:
It just may be a muscle loss problem. The last time the farrier was here it didn't really SEEM it was the leg in the air that was the problem, but more the supporting leg couldn't hold her. So she really didn't have time to relax the leg in the air back down.
We tried supporting her with a wall but that didn't help, I've considered leg support boots but decided that was an expensive experiment if it failed. I can't rap good enough to do a support rap any ideas on this front? Maybe I should try supporting the opposite leg somehow.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 4:28 pm:
Something I've done for my 30+ year old Appy who has a blown out hock (so it makes it hard for him to put weight on that leg) is to stack a couple of those wide, flat rubber feed dishes and turn them upside down and set the front of the hoof on the top edge of the dish. It's not ideal, but he can put weight on the dishes, and I can nip and rasp the edges better than if the toe was resting on the ground.
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Member:
dwinans
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 5:09 pm:
I had an old gelding who did the same thing. I just gave up shoeing and trimming behind altogether. He was ridden enough to wear his hooves down but not get them too short (soft dirt in the arena). I tried tranquilizers and everything but nothing worked. If I even tried to touch his back feet he thought it meant "pick up" and he would uncontrollably snap his leg to his belly.
Good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 5:12 pm:
Hollywood does he have trouble holding himself when doing the opposite leg? The rubber pan did cross my mind. Getting her to put the hoof on there with out picking it up will be the problem. Otherwise up under her belly it will go and it won't come down on the feed pan! I might try it tomorrow....can't hurt. thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 5:58 pm:
I really wonder what makes them do this with their legs. It doesn't seem to be a real uncommon problem amongst the seniors. I would think snapping them up like that would hurt more. My vet said he imagines she has multiple bone spurs. Her hip/stifle area seems to be the problem.
She is the most expensive horse I have (and worth every penny). She gets legend shots and oral joint support, etc. My horse friends think I'm nuts fussing over an old pony like this, but she deserves it!
The reason I like to have her trimmed is if her toes get to long and her breakover to far ahead, it makes her visibly sore.
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 7:15 pm:
My mare does the same thing...jacks her hinds up really far up under herself and tremors, but then gradually lets them fall and I can hold them up. Can your girl prop on her toes for any length of time? Maybe the farrier can prop her hoof on top of his shoe? (takes a trusting farrier!!). Maybe instead of asking her to pick up her hoof, trick her and make her think she's about to walk forward and as soon as she moves the back hoof, prop it on the toe? I know, I know, I'm reaching!
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 8:28 pm:
Diane
Just a tightish bandage does the trick some times you have to bandage both legs the lame one and the sound one so that the supporting leg has protection too.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 9:48 pm:
liliana she don't really have a sound one, she is more reluctant to pick up her right, but if she does it gets snapped up to her belly also.
Kim I had a post in here last year about her, and how she couldn't prop her rear legs to rest them, however I do see her prop the left one occasionally. The right one she sets ahead and rests it on the toe.
Your walking forward statement is true, sometimes if I can nab her leg before it goes forward, she seems to tolerate it better.
I wonder if I put a hay bale in front of her legs so she couldn't snap them up would work, or hurt her?
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New Member:
ellab
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 10:39 am:
How about a trailer with a ramp. Place cement blocks with a towel over them (to protect the ramp from scrapes and stuff) under the ramp to lift it 6-8 inches off the ground. She could stand on the ramp with her foot hanging off. The ramp should have rubber matting already to help the slip factor.
EllaB
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 11:49 am:
Hi Ellab and welcome to HA. That is a good idea, except I don't have a ramp trailer and I'm not sure how she would handle the leg hanging.
I'm on my way out to try the feed tub thing & I also have some old smb boots I will put on her.
Thanks
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New Member:
ellab
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 12:08 pm:
Thanks for the welcome but I have been here. I let my membership expire (whoops) as my credit card changed and it did not automatically renew. During the couple of weeks before I got set up again my user name had been taken. I stayed as close to it as possible. It was Ella and now is EllaB.
EllaB 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 1:13 pm:
Well I don't think there is anything that is going to help! Them legs snapped up and quivered until I walked her.
I guess I'll just bute the heck out of her for the next farrier visit and cross my fingers. With the leg snapping up and quivering like that I can't get it down on anything.
I will just take what I have....she is in VERY good spirits, good appetite, and gets around reasonably well considering our hills and the snow. Much better than last year!
THANKS for al your suggestions
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 4:42 pm:
This may but so simple as to be stupid but can you use a heat wrap prior to farrier coming?? Either topical Thermoflex or something similar? Or a real heat wrap ?? We used this on my friend's 32 yr. appy and it helped. When trying to help like this you feel like your brain is fried. Best of luck she certainly has a good mom!! Cindy
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 6:42 pm:
Diane, what about having a chiropractor come out and adjust her?. If she has fallen at some point she might be really tweaked, maybe this could help?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 6:32 am:
Cindy not stupid at all. I do use thermoflex on her but it don't seem to help much. I have used something with capasican (sp) in it and that seemed to bring her some relief, I think it was called sore no more. I'll have to see if I can find some.
Linda I don't think this is from falling, I'm pretty sure it is old age settling in. chiropractors in my area don't exist for horses.
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New Member:
freshman
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 5:46 pm:
I think that this might have already been suggested on another thread, but have you considered positioning her against a wall that she can lean on for support? She might relax more if she feels secure and balanced, not about to fall over. I keep imagining my 85 year old grandma trying to hike her leg up and hold it there, afraid of falling.
You could also try to rig up a sort of sqeeze chute with a gate and a solid wall. She might feel more secure that way and be fully supported while her hind leg is in the air.
Of course, she might just not have enough flexion in her hind legs to accomadate any sort of lifting. It might be possible to trim her hind hooves yourself while she is laying down if she will let you.
No matter what you try, I'd go ahead and give bute (if no health problems that prevent it) to her even if it doesn't improve her ability to hold the leg up. Cranking on those old joints has to cause some soreness/pain.
Ask your vet for ideas, too. She may be able to bloc/anesthesize whatever part of the limb that is painful or spasming while the horse is being trimmed, or know other tricks that have worked on similar horses. Adequan/legend injections might also be of help. Good luck!
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 4:05 am:
I know this might be extreme but have you thought of having the farrier come on vet day and maybe using a mild sedative? It might relax her a bit, decreasing anxiety and it may, perhaps, relax the muscles of those back legs preventing the hike up and subsequent spasms. It might be worth a try if all else fails.....or instead of prescription sedatives if that is just not an option what about a mild feed through such as Quietex etc?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 6:58 am:
Thanks Corinne, I asked the vet about ace or something similar and he didn't think it would work.
When she was tranqed to have her teeth done we tried to pick up her feet and it didn't work, she still jerked them up but was much more unsteady. I'm afraid it would put the farrier in danger.
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 9:04 am:
I think Kristin's suggestion of doing it while she is laying down might be the ticket. Even if you couldn't get them trimmed, you could at least clean them.
If the timing was right, the farrier could get her done with a good trim and then you could just try to trim her a little here and there doing maybe one foot a day or something like that.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 1:53 pm:
Well...my horse looks like a cheap date on sedation, half the dose and when we have him walk it off he is all wobbly. I was always afraid he would fall so I do see your point that if she snapped that leg up and was groggy it might get dangerous. Will still keep thinking for some solutions for you though. Good luck!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 5:06 pm:
Catching the old girl laying down would be hard...she sleeps at night. Always covered in shavings in the morning. Very rarely does she nap during the day (in the winter) unless she is sore.
I have asked the vet for ideas and he really doesn't have any, other than full sedation (laying her down) and I would rather not trim her than do that, at this point anyway.
I think I will try a high dose of bute and the capsacin it might work
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Member:
jgordo03
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Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 5:05 pm:
Diane,
I had a twenty-six year old fellow that could hardly pick up his hind feet. I started giving him 100 mg of Hyaluronic Acid, 1500 mg of Glucosamine and 800 mg of ChonDrOitin everyday. Within a few days I could tell he felt much better all over, and within a month he was giving me his foot every time I walked up to him.
I take about half of this amount myself, I'm 52 and I don't have to sit down to put my pants or shoes on, and my knee don't pop when I bend them and I can still get on my horse without a step.
I purchase each item separately from an on-line vitamin store for a fourth of the cost of an already mixed horse supplement. I’d say about $20.00 bucks a month. I grind them up and mix oats, oat flour, some apples and carrots, and a small amount of molasses together' divide it into how ever many portions I made.
I give this combination to my working QH also.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 2, 2007 - 5:24 pm:
Hi Judi, Flash gets a joint supp with 125 mgs of Hyaluronic Acid, and 6000mgs of glucosamine and 800 mgs cs plus it has msm and vit c. She also gets IV legend shots. It has helped her alot it would seem, as far as getting around, and she doesn't crack and pop with every move anymore. It just isn't helping with picking the legs up.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 3:26 pm:
The farrier came today, I've been loading Flash up on bute since Tues 1 1/2 gram morning and night. We got her feet done!!!. She still had a really hard time with the right rear and we could tell it was still VERY painful. I fed her licorice treats while she was getting done, which helped a very little. She leaned against the lean-to wall for support. She was also able to put her hooves on the hoof stand, so she got a pretty good trim. Her snowballs were getting terrible so hopefully this helps.
Her left rear went pretty smoothly, still painful, but she didn't fuss near as much as she did with the right. Thanks everyone
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 4:05 pm:
Diane you must be SOOOO happy! They always try so very hard for us! Yeah Flash! Cindy
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 4:21 pm:
What a good girl and what a good horsemom you are Diane
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Member:
liliana
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 4:45 pm:
So glad you've managed! Sweet sweet girl and patient mum!
regards
Liliana
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 5:58 pm:
Hey, that's great! This thread reminds me of an old-timer gelding I used to have. He had a bum right front knee and it could be painful for him to lift and bend the leg enough for cleaning and farrier work.
We solved it by positioning his rear end next to a sturdy wall. He'd lean back against the wall to redistribute much of his weight to his back legs. Then, he could lift that leg at enough of an angle to allow the farrier to work on the foot without stressing the knee.
That wonderful old gelding has gone to his reward now, but it still brings tears to my eyes to think of how stoic and sweet and cooperative he was. These creatures are so generous.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 1:11 am:
That's great news, Diane. What a relief for Flash and for you!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 6:39 am:
Thanks, she did try very hard, but I can tell it won't be long before the right rear won't be able to get done. Bringing her leg forward for the hoof stand didn't seem to bother her quite as much. It is taking it out behind her that is painful. I asked the farrier if he could trim her like that if worse comes to worse. He said he could, it just wouldn't be as good a job.
He said her hooves weren't real long so we are going to see if we can get away with doing her rears every other time.
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