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  Discussion on Disparity among vets regarding floating
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Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 10:30 am:

I hope I am not asking a question that has already been posted but when I bought Demetrius is 2004 he had his teeth floated with the prepurchase, then same time one year later our DVM in ND examined his teeth under sedation and said he did not require floating. One year after that another DVM and Equine Dental Specialist said he had hooks on the back molars and lacker lateral excursion. I was upset that my horse could have had hooks that hurt him and wondered why the year before the previous vet did not see the need to float. Fast forward to this year, only eight months later after the last float, we live in an area where they have the DVM/Equine dentist examine the horse twice a year and this dentist said that my horse had hooks again that had caused sores on this cheeks. Now I am totally confused, one dentist did not float after one year, the other one said once a year will suffice and now the new dentist said every six month. And since he seems to have different findings on assessment each time should I just have him looked at every six months? I would hate for him to have sores in his mouth that might interfere with his mastication.
He has never ever been off of feed. He is 8 yrs old. Any reasons for the disparity in growth from year to year, he is on free choice hay, but has been in a grass pasture since moving here maybe teeth wear differently on grass?
I would just like to ensure that he is seen as often as need be but can't get the same answer from any DVM and we move every 24 months so there is no continuity. I also don't want overkill and his teeth being floating too much as I have seen complications from this as well.
Any advice and I am sorry in advance if this is a silly question.
Member:
sonoita

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 10:40 am:

Not a silly question as I had the same thing happen and would like to know.
My vet said for two years that they needed to be floated and I have old guys and he kept putting me off. I finally went with a equine dentist and he said the one guy has very loose teeth and could lose them. Plus the hooks were very bad. Thank goodness I ride with a hackamore my horses would have been in so much pain.

Corinne , You are moving again?
Happy Trails,
Member:
dres

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 10:55 am:

I am curious what Dr. O has to say as well, so not a silly question...

I have always had my horses teeth looked at /done once a year.. I used a ''equine dentist'' one time and it cost me triple + the vet call for the sedation.. I am back to using my vet that does use power tools WHEN needed.. I was 'told' that an equine dentist is more schooled in the power tools and other such things for the horse.. But heck.. how many years have we NOT had the equine dentist speciality?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
sswiley

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 11:10 am:

I too will be waiting with anticipation for some info on this subject. Today at 1pm my vet is going to look at all my horses teeth including a 24 year old mare and another mare that is having "face" issues while riding.
I have never had an equine dentist, just stubborn and old fashion I guess. I have two local vets that, in my opinion, do a fine job of floating.
Member:
shirl

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 12:00 pm:

Corrine,
I have my horse's teeth checked/floated (if necessary) twice a year when spring/fall shots are given. Before I latched on to my current vet, who is a wonder, I had one supposed professional float my former horse's teeth that didn't even use a speculum and 3 months later she had sores in the back of her mouth because he didn't reach far enough back without the aid. Make certain they also check the front teeth and use a speculum.
Shirl
Member:
mcbizz

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 12:32 pm:

Like Shirley, my vets check teeth spring and fall when shots are given. Floating occurs usually about every two years unless more often is necessary. The horses are sedated and power tools are used, cooled with water, which I understand is important as the teeth get hot. And I agree, ALL teeth should be examined. My Arab had an upper front tooth which was broken, loose and dead and was pulled. Quite an ordeal. It has healed nicely and the gum is now growing into the open cavity. My gelding that lived to almost 32 had his teeth floated regularly and never had problems with eating.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 12:35 pm:

I have all my horses' teeth checked when they get their shots spring and fall. Our vet does the work. I've never had any problems with his work. He seems to do a good job. We had an equine dentist come through a couple of yrs. ago. He was from Calif. and a friend had asked him to stop in this area on his way to somewhere else. I agreed to have him do one of my horses, thinking if I liked his work, I'd have him do more. I did NOT like the way he handled the horse at all. I thought he was very rough. He used a speculum, which must not have fit right, or was kept too wide open for too long as horse had a very sore jaw for two weeks afterwards. He insisted my horses all should have a "bit rest" made in their teeth. I didn't have it done as I've done o.k. without such a thing for all these yrs. Is this a new thing? I'll be very interested to hear what Dr. O. has to say about all this also.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 1:12 pm:

My vet, who I have lots of faith in, missed the need for floating - 2 years in a row. My mare went too long because of this and also developed hooks and other problems. When the barn dentist came out to look at the other horses, I had him look at my mare and there was a lot of work that needed doing. Because it was so extensive, he did some of the work during one call and finished at a later date. He did say she needed to be checked every six months. I started to wonder if he wasn't just saying this to get more $$ out of me, but the last time he checked her, he left a note on the board for me that said everything looked good and he didn't need to float her again, and would check again in another six months. So, he gained my trust and after that first floating, she was a lot softer on the bit. Plus, he has extensive schooling and certification on equine dentristry, so I am very comfortable with him.

I think, Corinne, it's worth getting Demetrius checked by a trusted professional. If he needs work, then you've caught it early and if not, you can rest at ease that he's good to go for another 6 months, at least. I think the key is to find someone who's attitude, credentials and knowledge you can trust.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 1:39 pm:

That sounds like a good idea everyone to get him checked every six months, until we moved to Oklahoma no one in ND that I had known ever had teeth checked more than once a year by their vet and even the two vets I saw up there said once a year was all that was recommended.
I am just curious as to why one year he did not need it, which means two years in between floating even though he was examined once a year from ages 5-7, then he developed hooks and needed floating twice in one year since age 8.
Also, while all were vets, each had different ways of floating and seemingly different experience levels and tools. Some had very fancy equipment in state of the art mobile dental units and some did not. Some were DVMs that just did dental work and some were DVMs who had general practices and did everything. I just stayed away from the supposed equine dentists who were not DVMs. But we have lived in three states in the last five years.
Sara...I Had never heard of a bit seat until the fancy mobile dental clinic came to town right before we moved here to Oklahoma and I don't really know if there is a need. One instructor said he wouldn't bite the bit if he had one and I am not referring to working the bit with his mouth in relation to jaw flexion in dressage, she said it would prevent him from getting the bit in between his teeth...that made no sense to me. LOL So I really have no idea.
Either way there seems to be disparity in growth and disparity in what's recommended and a general idea about the best care for him is what I need since we move so often. I felt awful when the new guy found hooks and sores after 8 months when I thought I was doing the best by Demetrius and having him checked once a year like every one else said I needed to do.
And No Fran we have not moved again just yet....16 more months. You will all see a post about boarding barns in the regional section before we move again! LOL Unless my husband goes overseas then I will stay here with the animals.
Member:
sswiley

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 2:30 pm:

One thing to note that is absolutly NOT acceptable when floating teeth. A local vet, when he floated my horses teeth I noticed he was careless about bumping the back jaw bone with the tools. This was a very good vet in all other respects, he was just clumsey. The horse was sedated and did not object too much, but I am sure this made him sore and would affect his attitude about future floatings and vet work.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 4:48 pm:

Corinne,

I have a good friend who went to Equine Dental School. When I suspect my horses teeth have sharp edges I ask her to come over with her speculum thingy. Then I also feel for sharp edges in their mouth. She no longer does teeth for a business (got hurt pretty bad in a non dental but equine related accident) She explains to me what I am feeling, and what needs to be done. (We do 2 of my horses that don't need sedation, I have to find someone else to do the other 2 this spring) I can feel the razor sharp edges myself, they are in fact so sharp you can slice your finger on them easily! My one mare had the inside of her cheeks full of cankor like sores. Ouch!

I don't know if I understand the bit seats either, and don't worry about them. I do know what a hook looks like though, and have had caps taken off, as well as the little wolf teeth.

I would never have an equine dentist or vet do anything unless I had my hand in the horses mouth and felt for my own satisfaction what they needed to have done. The last guy I had here, wanted to do $100's worth of work on my mares mouth! I DON'T think SO!

I've had vets do my horses by holding their tongues, and doing a horrible job. I've had the equine dentists charge me a fortune not really know why til my friend helped me out.

Don't be afraid to ask why something needs to be done, and put your hand in his mouth so you can feel if they're are sharp edges or points. If the vet/dentist doesn't think you should do that, then I'd show him/her the door pretty quick.

I do think, just my personal opinion, that most horses need to be done every couple of years. Some more often, it depends on how they chew. He may indeed have sharp edges now and you would want to do them.

I have considered buying some tools myself just to take the edges off. If we can learn to do hooves ourselves, I don't know why we can't float teeth ourselves?! There is something about angles needed, just like with hooves. I know, I know, it's 2 different subjects completely. And I can't sedate my horses myself I know. Would still need a qualified person to do the teeth sometimes.

I can ask my friend more questions if you have more concerns, or want to know what to ask.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 5:22 pm:

Angie thanks for all the information you shared. After hearing about how one vet (who went to vet school with our ND vet) was killed when a horse hit him in the head with the speculum that was in his mouth and DrOve a screw that was on the bottom of the speculum edge into his skull I think even if I could do this myself I just might want to leave it up to the professionals who can hook the speculum into a stock. Some pretty dangerous stuff can happen!
I have never put my arm in my horses mouth but might not mind taking a feel next time for educational purposes but I did hold the tongue of my last coaches sedated draught horse while the vet floated her and got a very good tutorial on floating with regular and power float tools because the smell made her owner sick and the vet needed assistance. Man it took all my strength to hold that muscle she was so strong I thought she might swallow me whole!
I think a hook is a term for jagged edge on the molars and if they feel like razors surely I will have him looked at every six months. Luckily we are now at a place where the vet is only one hour away versus three.
Member:
amara

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 5:25 pm:

i like the idea of the training that an equine dentist goes thru... according to vets, they only get one or two days of training... equine dentists get a heck of a lot more than that.. of course, there are also many different schools, and i'm sure not all are created equal... i've had good success with the IAED... in fact, my old vet from up north would only do teeth as a "fill in"... he would do general stuff but tell us to get the "real dentist" out to make sure everything was good...
i've had guys do the tongue thing and i definately wasnt happy with that...i dont mind doing that myself for a quick check, but that's it... i had a great dentist in CT for many many years who never over charged or anything... he used to give some horses (including one of mine) the "good mouth" discount.. if they had a perfect mouth he would do them once a year (check them every 6 months tho), and then give us a discount cause they were so easy to do... i've since moved to texas and cant quite afford to get him down here (he said he'd do it on his way back from his dental work in Florida), but managed to get another guy out who did really good work and came up with all the same things on my guys that the other guy did...

dont know if i've helped any at all...i guess in general i like someone who's gone thru that training and specializes in that one thing.. i know that its different from the "way we used to do things", but science and research have changed the way we do a lot of things, why not this?...
Member:
sswiley

Posted on Thursday, Feb 8, 2007 - 10:19 pm:

Just learned an interesting thing today. My vet came out to float my horses teeth. She made an interesting observation. Appraently my 24 year old mare has very hard teeth and my 8 year old mare has very soft teeth. The 8 year old's teeth had many more points and edges, and she took a fraction of the time to float than my old mare.
That could definetly be one of the reasons some horses have to be floated more often.
Member:
freshman

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 2:42 am:

Moving around so much certainly puts you in a tough situation when trying to arrange for the best care for your horse in every place.

I wanted to at least bring up the possibility that the conflicting advice you are getting regarding the condition of your horses mouth, recommendations for floating, etc, could have very much to do with the types of clinicians involved. There are many veterinarians and other professionals that specialize in equine denistry and do great work. It also stands to reason that, since these folks make all or most of their living off the profits of dental work, they are likely to recommend frequent exams, floats, and other procedures. I also can't help but notice how often equine dentists determine some problem with a horse's teeth no one else has noticed and that doesn't seem to be causing the horse any problems. Prevention is one thing, but this can be another...

On the other hand, there are also some DVMs that are not very good at floating or other aspects of equine dental work, or just do not like to do it. These guys might shirk the dental duties required by their patients.

A good vet will be able to perform all dental maintaince or will have a specialized dentist that he or she works with on a regular basis. In most cases, these dentists are supposed to operate under the supervision of a vet anyway. More complicated dental problems usually need a equine surgeon rather than a dentist, since invasive work necessitates the medical management that only a vet can provide.

No doubt that many here disagree, probably strongly. Just my experience.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 6:05 am:

Hello everyone, we cover the question of differing attitudes toward floating in the article in great detail in the Dentistry article. This includes the scientific studies done to support or not support the effects of floating, differing floating techniques, and finally a schedule that offers three different programs based on your goals.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 7:36 am:

Kristin did a great job of summing it up I think. I agree with her.

I never heard of having horses teeth floated until about 10 years ago. Then a couple of years ago I had a Equine Dentist do them all and he calls, emails, and sends out cards to remind me he's coming back in the area. Yes, he does make his living that way so he loves to come back every 6 months. So I am thankful to have a friend who will help me check their teeth even if the 2 of us don't actually float them. She's told me numerous horror stories of dentists and vets getting hurt when they have their hand/arm in the horses mouth so I know it is very dangerous.

It's also very dangerous to have a horse have sharp edges making sores in his mouth and while you are riding the bit makes painful contact!

In MI, and most likely other states, the dentists don't have to operate under the supervision of a vet, BUT they do have the have the vet sedate as legally they cannot do that themselves. But some do the sedation anyhow and it's a gamble for you the horse owner if they do that without a vet present if your horse would happen to have a bad reaction.

I didn't know there was a dentistry article! OH, maybe I read it a few years ago and forgot?
Member:
corinne

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 9:10 am:

I read the article sir prior to posting and saw that there are differing attitudes mentioned which is completely understandable but I am still wondering why, assuming that everyone's assessment was correct (and being that they were DVM's I trust what they were saying) that he would go two years without any sharp points developing, then need it twice in one year seemingly with hooks so bad that he developed sores? His diet has stayed the same, with the exception of different hay and the addition of grass. I am more interested in the growth patterns more so, which I am not sure if you can help me on but am still curious if you have any information to provide. There have also been, in addition to no problems with his feed, no problems with the bit. I just wish I could have forseen the uneven growth or I would have had him checked out twice a year. I just feel bad, I am sure sores hurt him.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 9:41 am:

P.S. Thank you everyone. I would at least like to say that regardless of our moving, I have only always done my research and have only ever used the most recommended vet in that part of the state. Only the best for my boy. So with that being said, assuming their assessments were correct and they were all competent in equine dentistry still wondering about the different wear patterns from year to year.

Thanks,
Corinne
Member:
jmarie

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 10:30 am:

What a great thread! I really thought I was alone in my confusion on this issue. I've always (that's about 20 years) had my horses' teeth floated annually. Depending on where I was and who was available, sometimes the vet did them. Other times it was an equine dentist. I can't get any two professionals to agree on anything! One vet did them, then another vet came six months later and asked why I never had them floated and did them again. One dentist did them for years, and another said all of their behavioral and bitting issues were related to bad floating. He did them, and I still have the same issues. I've bought two horses, one twelve and one eight, who had never been floated. The 12-yo still had a wolf tooth hanging loose in his gum and had been ridden and shown that way for years! My vet doesn't like to do teeth. My last vet didn't like equine dentists. I lost a horse to a rare tooth root cancer that neither the vet nor the dentist (nor the lab at Cornell, nor anyone else besides the man who wrote the Equine Dentistry text) knew about.

I'm frustrated and worried that I can't seem to get any consistent information or care for my horses. I read and read and discuss what I've found out with my professionals, and still I can't seem to find a consensus.

At least now I know I'm not alone. It ain't much, but it helps me feel just a tad less stupid.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 11:19 am:

Joanne,
I've had the same problems with the vets vs the dentists. Now you know why I risk my arm by putting it in their mouth! Or even risk my fingers when their mouth isn't propped open; I still try to feel for sharpe edges along the sides at least, and pull their cheek away also to look for sores. Usually can't see far enough back, but I try and will keep trying until the experts agree on what, when and why!

Corinne,
Don't feel bad. His teeth may have indeed been fine for years, then they need work. It's no ones fault, just the way teeth wear. I think age has something to do with it. Like they might need caps off and work done when younger, then go a few years being fine. They might develop sharp points 2 years in a row say at 7-8 yrs, then be fine again for the next 4. I don't think you did anything wrong by not having them done every 6 months or whatever schedule.

I just try to check like I said above. With Demetrius, just get used to how he responds to pressure on the side of his jaw. With your hand, and when the bit is in his mouth. Being a smart and sensitive Arab, he'll tell ya if something different.

BTW, my 17 year old Arab mare showed no discomfort at all. The edges of her teeth cut my friends finger and her mouth was a mass of sores. She's been fat & sassy all along. My gelding, going on 8, has a problem with the right side of his jaw/cheek and bit pressure there. He DrOps his food also when eating. The Equine Dentist thought hs was fine, my friend says he needs work! So go figure that one out! And the Equine Dentist was scheduled to show up last October....sent me an email saying he'd be here, and haven't seen or heard from him since. Going with a vet this spring. Now to worry about her using power tools vs hand tools.

Geesh already. Maybe some one should invent a horsey chew toy that keep the teeth filed down?
Member:
jmarie

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 12:00 pm:

Angie, I'm absolutely with you! I check my horses for points and sores. What I can't check for is stuff like "wavy" teeth or teeth that are slanted one way or the other from always having been done by a right-handed dentist or whatever. If they feel smooth to me, they're good! I just don't know what else they should feel like, and I'm not brave enough to squat down in front of my horses and pry their mouths open for a closer look. I'm rather attached to the current arrangement of my body parts.

My last equine dentist got all crazed about how one of the old horses had a couple of loose teeth. He did some magic and announced the horse would put on weight within days. Thing was, the horse was already fat. He's always been the quintessential easy keeper. All I noticed was that he DrOpped a lot of hay for about 10 minutes after the procedure, then went back to his usual non-stop eating. I'm sure the dentist was honest; I just can't say there was any change. Maybe I need to wait longer to see it.

I'm going to try my new vet next fall.

I like your horse chew toy suggestion! You'd better get cracking on that invention.

DrO, how do the wild horses survive without dentistry? Is there something about their diet that we can learn from, or do they just have bad teeth?
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 1:00 pm:

I gotta ask... does anybody else ever feel just OVERWHELMED by the sheer volume of valuable information we get here? You guys answer questions I didn't even know I had yet!!!
I get my Tuffy's teeth floated when I see her mouthing the bit a lot. My question, really more of a concern is this... when we took her to the current vet to get floated, he put her in this contraption to restrain her while sedated. My eyes were bugging out. It came below her whithers, and I felt that if she went just a skootch more flaccid, she could just topple over breaking her whole self on landing. Unless my memory fails me, Amanda was not all that comfortable with the support "contraption". On top of that, the floor was cement. Next time, I think I will bring Mohammed to the mountain. I may not have a first class barn, but it is home to her. I an build something more reasonable here. I am also thinking I will get the Equine dentist rather than the vet.
I LOVE the chew toy idea!
Member:
amara

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 5:08 pm:

i'm sure dr.O can answer that better but even "minor" changes in feed can change the wear pattern in a horse's mouth.... grass is softer and may wear a horse's mouth less... and as horse's age the shape of their mouth changes, which can also change the wear pattern...
did at any point he start chewing on anything? some horses that have taken up wood chewing (cribbing or otherwise) have a very different wear pattern than their age/mouth would suggest...

has there been any change at all in demetrius's attitude/weight during these changes with his teeth?... i do agree that some dentists will try to get you to have teeth checked every 6 months - it is how they make money after all, but believe that if they start doing unnecessary work or making wild claims or just taking up too much of our money, they lose more clients than they keep, and lose more money... all the professional horse dentists i've ever worked with have treated me honestly and fairly - more so than many vets.. like i said, my little guy gets the "good mouth" discount...he once went two years because of financial problems on my part and still the dentist didnt think he needed to be done! (and this was the president of the IAED!) (he gave me a discount too!)...

as far as wild horses, what i've heard and learned is that the wild ones with really bad mouths just dont survive, and dont live long enough to pass on the genetics of really bad mouths... basically darwin's survival of the fittest... considering the sometimes harsh conditions of the wild only strong horses can survive long term, so it would stand to reason that a really bad mouth that did not allow a horse to keep good condition just wouldnt make it.. when we domesticated them we started providing enough feed to make up for any dental issues, and started breeding indiscriminately... we certainly dont breed for mouth conditions! look at what's happened to the poor mini's!! i'm sure this is not the case with ALL wild horse's, but have heard from people who have studied wild horse carcasses that they generally find decent mouths on the older horses...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 6:18 pm:

Corinne, I cannot comment on what other folks saw and their subsequent assessments, these would be questions to ask the people doing the examination and work.
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 6:24 pm:

Hey Melissa, as for changes in his feed the forage types from Montana where we purchased him to ND were probably very similar in texture and when we moved here to Oklahoma in June he went into a grass pasture for the first time since I have owned him but he did get his normal hay meals 2x daily. As for cribbing on anything he does enjoy chewing on his treat dispenser and his traffic cone but doesn't really chew on anything other than those two toys. He did have some weight loss when we moved to the extreme heat and was supplemented with concentrates to get his weight up but he has since normalized. Additionally and I have no idea if this means anything but we moved from a very very cold climate where he had free choice hay and probably ate all day because they needed the extra calories due to the weather to a very very hot one where we had month long stretches of 100 + heat and I did notice in the long hot stretches he eats less, including his hay and grazing. I mean I gather that the wear patterns were different if he ate less now that I think about it but does heat make teeth grow faster? I know his feet seem to grow faster too. Where do I come up with these questions? LOL
Member:
corinne

Posted on Friday, Feb 9, 2007 - 9:22 pm:

Thanks Dr O I must have been posting when you were. I got some great information and will have him looked at every six months just to ensure that some edges don't crop up because of variables. I appreciate all the information everyone and please continue posting here. It's nice to learn new things about dental issues and it's nice to know that other horse owners have similar questions and experiences. My last tutorial was a 40 minute session at the last horsefest in Minot. We got to watch hands on with video cameras in the horse's mouth, then I spent 45 minutes with the DVM discussing what I watched. Hopefully there will be an equine dentist at the Kansas Equifest doing live demo's in the next two weeks. I will bring back anything I learn there.
Member:
ilona

Posted on Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 10:04 am:

There was a fantastic article in two of the horse magazines last year in the fall. I believe it was EQUUS and HORSE ILLUSTRATED or HORSE AND RIDER. I do know that I read them both extensively, one was a 14 page article with great illustrations...of course its not on my book-shelf in the horse section where it belongs , most irritating. They were very helpful as references for me so that when my vet came I had some knowledge base. If you check the back issues you will find these and I strongly recommend them.
When I did some courses in equine studies we had a practicum with an equine dentist and after he spoke and described briefly the study course he did I was impressed with his specialty knowledge. That said, I have used both Vets and equine dentists and had to go on trust with both as my own knowledge is so limited. Its like a car mechanic, just how much will I ever know about my car so that I can really question the point being made by the mechanic. Of course the difference is my car doesn't DrOp weight, just engine parts; doesn't throw its front end when I use the steering wheel, will just go straight off the road. Both horses and cars have a way of telling us when they need to be attended to...prevention and that very helpless-rendering phenomenon, trust in professionals, is what is needed to keep us safe and everything moving well.
New Member:
teddyj1

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 10:51 pm:

Well I guess I've had better experiences with Veterinary Dentists over the years. I've lived in two different parts of the country and in both cases the Vets both specialized in Dental care, and do excellent work. They both were very thorough,patient, and GENTLE. The time I used the "Equine Dentist" he used the dremel tool(not "PowerFloat") exclusively, did not water cool the tool(or teeth), was very rough, jerking my horses head, caused bleeding, and was very aggressive in the amount of tooth he removed(cutting front teeth off,etc). I have my horses checked twice a year, and done when ever needed, the horse he was most aggressive with is a 5 year old that had been power floated 6 months earlier, so I was quite doubtful he was in need of such dramatic correction since he's been regularly floated since 18months old.

I realize this is all my personal opinion, but this is a supposed instructor at the IEAD, but I seriously have my doubts about that.

I felt the roughness and the aggressiveness, along with the fact I saw no attempt to cool down the tools he was using made me very nervous about using someone other than a Veterinary Dentist again in the future with my horses.

My feeling about ulcerations, is that many horses will develop points with in 6 months of their last floating no matter who does the work, that's unavoidable, but the person doing the work can be caring and compassionate no matter what!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 8:05 am:

Tod having floated thousands of horses and from examining horses mouths daily, I strongly disagree with your statement that horses routinely develop ulcers within six months of being floated. Ulcers are holes in the mucosa, exposing the submucosa and bleed easily and take some time to develop.

Horses do develop depressions in the gum of the cheek wall from the irregular cingulae on the cheek teeth and these are normal changes. Remarkable depressions combined with sharp points on the cingulae and you see a possible reason for discomfort from the bridle but following a good (not aggressive) float this may take one to three years to redevelop.
DrO
Member:
amara

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:44 am:

if this guy was truly an instructor at the IAED you can find it on their website... (iaedglobal.com)... if he was misrepresenting himself then the IAED should be notified... either way you should let them know of your experience... in my experience with them they are usually fairly compassionate with the horses and utilize the most up to date research...

i know their president and he is as compassionate as they come...
New Member:
teddyj1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:22 pm:

Hi Dr. O, as I stated , these were only my observations, and I do hear what your'e saying, But I had read on Dr. Tom Allen's site a quote taken from "Vet Practice News ,May '01" stating "enamel points will recur in about 3 months".

I own two dressage horses, my older semi retired horse may go up to 2 years with out needing to be floated at this time of his life, but my 5 yr old (working at 1st level on the bit every day)at this point needs his teeth done every 6 months to "knock off" the points. Now I was under the impression younger horses, and horses working "on the bit" may be more inclined to this type of higher maintenance than older and "pleasure" horses might??
From what I take from your posting, then it would seem like overkill to be having the horses looked at more than once a year, if they are floated correctly to begin with?

As to the Equine Dentist I referred to, I could only find him as being certified by IAED, but as I also stated, I had my doubts he was an instructor, but that was told to me by someone at the barn, not by the Dentist himself. He was not representing himself as such.

Sorry don't want to be difficult, just wasn't impressed with the IAED guy, made me nervous with the "bit seat, tooth cutting, bleeding, jerking", but the funny thing is, who really DOES know who's doing the work the horse actually needs?
I thought I did, now I'm confused(LOL)

Dr. O I do have a question for you unrelated to teeth- any new research on Antacid rebound- specifically Neighlox- just curious if that product is still recommended for short term use, or not at all.
Thanks
Member:
corinne

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 2:39 pm:

Now we are talking. Thanks Dr O for that last post. I wonder if my horse had normal depressions vs sores because there was no discomfort from the bridle AT ALL and he had only been done 8 months before from a very reputable DVM who specialized in equine dentistry, complete with video feed so the owners could see what he was doing. Unfortunately I was at work the day the new DVM did this last float so I was unable to ask specifics about the characteristics of the supposed lesions and I doubt he will remember now even if I call. Not saying what I read on his notes that were left for me was not accurate but it wasn't very detailed and was written in lay terms that weren't very descriptive.

Also, now that TOD posed the question, will working on the bit require more aggressive dental exams in dressage horses? These are the first months we have truly been through and on the bit, instead of him having a false head carriage but not on the bit if you know what I mean. And mouthing the bit (not biting it) in dressage to indicate suppling of the jaw is not an indication that they need dental work (Correct me if I am wrong) we strive for that to create jaw flexion and get the elusive foam.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 6:55 am:

I agree with you TOD, the dentist you refer to was no champ.

But Dr Allen's alleged statement implying a 3 month time to significant point development (or why bring it up?) is not consistent with my experience with thousands of horses nor does it make any anatomical sense.

Look at it this way: go to the article and look at the diagram of the tooth with the different floats demonstrated on it. Consider that tooth has to last the horse 25 plus years (longer nowadays). Over that time he will go through 2/3rds of the total length of the body all of that above the gum line and much of that below the gum line as the tooth erupts as the horse ages.

Now consider if we remove the least amount possible how much tooth will he have to loose before points can recur on that surface? Do you see the problem if he lost enough tooth to form a point in 3 months, his teeth will only last...I get 21 months, you might get 24 m. The statement does not make any sense but of course you can call anything you want a point.

But Corinne, while Tod's misstatement prompted a response all of these questions and ideas are already explored at great length in the article including your last question about the effects of different riding styles and how they might effect the way you look at floating. Do I need to rewrite this to make it clearer?
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 2:47 pm:

Nah no need to rewrite. You can disregard my last question. I hadn't memorized the article and will try to make a better point of going back to the article each time to ensure I don't ask a question that is already answered. I usually remember quite clearly what I have read but It's been a rather rough week and my mind is otherwise occupied. Sorry. I think I need a glass of wine...already worked a nine hour day and it's five o'clcok some where!
Member:
ilona

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 5:11 pm:

I found the article I referred to on my Feb 10 2007 post.

It is a 'special report' in EQUUS Magazine November 2006 issue 350.

The report is titled "Healthy Teeth Healthy Horse".

It is very good. Dr. O, this is not to say that your data on Equine dentistry is not excellent. It is. I just found this to be a particularly helpful report covering anatomy, tooth growth, dental exam, dental tools, common bite problems, age related problems case studies etc. It also includes wonderful, graphic photographs that helped de-mystify much for me personally.
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