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Discussion on Mare would not allow shoes to be applied..
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Member:
Paulette
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Posted on Monday, Oct 28, 2002 - 7:21 pm:
My mare recently foundered and per consult with Dr. Ric Redden...rock and roll rails were recommended for her. After about a month of calls, care and babying, we finally had everything in place to try these shoes, to no avail. My mare just reared and threw the farrier all over the small barn. He suggested sedation..but others have said that the mare is still too sore to shoe. I don't know what to do. The mare has never been shod and is a bit spoiled, but I don't want to dismis her pain, either. Paulette
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 5:59 am:
How sore is this mare? Does she walk around OK?
DrO
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 5:44 pm:
I think the mare is telling you in a very BIG way what is best for her. Have you looked into trimming in a correct way to set the foot up for healing? Shoeing doesn't heal, but setting the foot up correctly is what heals.
I have a couple friends who are trimming foundered horses (some very very severe) who are healing and improving well, no shoes.
Metabolism is also a key to healing, have you examined how and what you feed, if the mare might be insulin resistant? Many nutritional things can contribute to this condition. If your mare is having a hard time walking as DrO asked you, their are several things you can do to get her through this adjustment time that does not involve shoeing.
Please, listen to your mare, she is telling you something.
Melissa
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 7:15 pm:
Whoa Melissa,
you are like a kid with a new toy here. I know from your recent posts you have become a Strasser disciple but there are many other sides to this story, and your thoughts on the subject do not cover every case. You do not know this case and you really do not know why the mare is behaving this way: it is more likely a training issue and not some abstract thought this horse has that this is not good for her. And just because it may be painful to do, does not rule it our as the next best step.
I have founders every year that do not respond to anything but shoeing, I know because it is usually my last option. So let's first try and answer the questions they are asking clearly without creating new confusion. The fact they have engaged Dr Redden strongly suggests this is a well thought out next step.
DrO
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 29, 2002 - 8:58 pm:
Oh, yes you are right about that! I am extremely excited to see so many lame horses getting help and improving.
I am not, though, a Strasser disciple. I follow more of the 'whole horse trim' philosophy, the individual horse will indicate what it personally needs within certain guidelines.
It is very clear to me, though, after tremendous research that more times than not, vets/farriers suggest the shoe for healing pathologies, and do so with a 'let's see how it goes' attitude.
Vets many times leave the foot issues to the discretion of the farrier. How many farriers have taken feet apart piece by piece and really studied it out? Or when they take their certification do they mostly learn how to shape and put on a shoe. If we are lucky, we will get one that knows how to balance a foot.
How many farriers and vets do you know that suggest or even offer a physiologically correct barefoot trim as a possibility or even a choice. Very very few.
Most people are just like I was, had no idea what is in the foot, what its structure is, and what it needs to be.
If one looks at horses feet everywhere you go, check out the deformities. Navicular and founder, etc. aren't on the rise because all farriers are trimming correctly.
Many times farriers and vets are just doing what their customers want, getting a horse that can perform as soon as possible. Regardless of how they do this.
I'm sure you could kick my butt on knowledge about founder and the causes....but peoples personal experiences and what they have learned are a tremendous source of knowledge.
When a horse founders, it is usually some pretty long term conditions that have been set up in the body/feet, and then something pushes them over that edge. One cannot correct such an extreme problem quickly. It takes alot of time to heal a founder, and it isn't going to be sound for a long time. But people want them sound right now.
How do you explain that putting a piece of metal on the bottom of a foot is going to heal founder. The minute you put that shoe on, you stop expansion in the foot, and constrict blood flow. That restricts healing. It's been proven, and not just by Strasser. Pollett has an incredible video about the foot/leg, blood flow/etc... and comes right out and shows what damage shoeing does, but he STILL supports shoeing....he gets all of his money for his research from that source, makes sense.
What I am saying, is just as you have the right to suggest shoeing, and you have the credentials to suggest that you have more experience than most-I also have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from what I am doing, and am seeing first hand what can be done with trimming, and have the right also to suggest to people that they might check another line of thinking out.
If they choose to do that, then it will cause them to do alot of research, gain alot of knowledge, and maybe be able to make some educated decisions, not just just take a vet or farriers word for it. Obviously, ones who come on this site and others are ones who are more open to research, that's why they are here.
And how do I know this person hasn't checked out other sources, barefoot?? I don't. But from my comments I'm sure they will say one way or the other. Their isn't one single person that I have talked to that has chosen to try the barefoot trimming route that did it off the cuff, or went right out and tore their horses shoes off.
They did massive research.
Well, I for one would never discourage someone to do research. I know several people who have done the entire shoeing route with their navicular and founder horses that were angry that no licensed professional ever even suggested proper barefoot trimming as an option.
Vets and farriers don't make money off of owners who try barefooting, unless that particular farrier is willing to try it(more and more are doing so).
I will never feel bad for pointing people towards doing research for themselves. Knowledge in these areas are improving.
No I don't know the case, or why the mare is behaving this way, etc. and either do you. You can sure make suggestions, ask questions, but it comes down to the owner doing the research in order to make the best educated decision for her horse. That is why you always refer people to your articles, do the research.
What is wrong with referring people to a different set of research information?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 7:03 am:
Mellisa there is nothing wrong with expressing different opinions and making suggestions after all that is what I frequently do. But I will call you when I think you are pointing folks in the wrong direction. Note: that your recommendations are not different than what I myself recommend in our article on founder, it is your assumption that this mare knows what is best that I challenge.
Though I know lots of farriers and vets I know very few who make recommendations based primarily on their wallet and most are well educated, well meaning, hard working people. Your verbal shots on them above are...well let's say just unnecessary. Perhaps you do not recognize Dr. Redden's name as one of the foremost researchers in foot physiology, and founder in particular, in the world.
To answer your question why do some of these horses do better with shoes than not, first I must state, this is a observed phenomenea, and the reason I give hypothetical. I think it is that some of these horses have inflammed and damaged tissue between the tip of the coffin bone and the sole. These tissues need to be rested until well and the sole healthier.
DrO
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Member:
Paulette
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 4:19 am:
Well now! I quess this is where I should step in!  This mare is sore..somewhat timid with her steps, but walks around freely. She bears weight on her feet..not rocked back in anyway. I must tell you that she has a history of rearing and being difficult when faced with an invasive procedure such as worming or injections. I would love to leave her barefoot. She has never had shoes and is very lightly used for nothing but pleasure riding, but her founder has left her with a sole that is less than 5mm thick. It is also DrOpped and she walks directly on the sole. If I understand the premis of the rockered shoe..it will allow her sole to be keep off the ground and hopefully she will grow a new..thicker sole quickly. And that is for her own protection..not a time table on my part. Melissa..Thank you for your input.I want you to know that I weigh everything carefully and will continue to research this problem. I am so impressed with Doc Redden however...he is world renouned and a farrier/vet so he knows his hooves! It still amazes me that he care about my little backyard lawn ornament! And of course I value DrO's opinion as well..that's why I'm here!
I am also researching the insulin resistance. What is given to horses with this problem? She is too heavy...keeps fat on air. But she has had chronic bouts of laminitis..the first one started when she was thin. It's a puzzle. Paulette
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 7:11 am:
Hello Paulette,
Currently the role, cause, and treatment of non-cushinoid insulin resistance is just in the early stages of understanding. However if your horse is thin this seems to be an unlikely problem, most of these horses are obese. How old is she?
Horses that walk around freely should be able to stand on soft ground for trimming, perhaps sedation is the best way to go to get the shoes on there with minimal new trauma.
DrO
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Member:
Paulette
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 8:05 pm:
Doc..Let me clarify. My mare had her first laminitic episode when she was thin, but that was years ago. She is obese now. I have switched her to grass hay and she gets about a cup of Senior Feed to get down her suppliments. She is on a dry lot but as I stated earlier...she stays fat on air. Almost forgot..she is about 15 years old and had her first bout of laminitis in 1995. Paulette
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 30, 2002 - 10:15 pm:
Dr. O what is the longterm prognosis for those horses that only respond/improve when you put the shoes on them? Will they recover fully? and for how long? will they always need to be shod?
Paulette, sorry to hear about your mare foundering. I can't give any advice but am rooting for you. I have seen some bad and good outcomes from foundering with shoes and without, its like a crapshoot. All i know is that the horses who come out of it better are the ones with owners who jump on the problem immediately. I would say you did that 100 fold. How the heck did you get Dr. Redden? I too, would think he is maxed out with all the expensive world class horses out there and like you, wouldn't think he had time for our backyard ornaments. Sounds like a great guy.
jo
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 7:07 am:
Melissa,
The photos were making the page difficult to visualize by making the frame margins wider than the screen so I moved them and your last post to the link at the top of the page.
Hello Joj,
No, just because shoes are needed does not worsen the prognosis, all the other factors are more important, primarily the amount of rotation present. Dr Redden has always been helpful when I called and consulted, he is always genuinely interested.
Paulette, your first objctive should be too reduce this horses weight. I presume these are recent changes in the diet and you are monitoring for weight loss and will make appropriate changes if there is no result.
I must say if I had a horse with a 5 year history of recurrent founder with the cause unknown, I would seriously consider the 2 month trial use of pergolide even without other signs of Equine Cushinoid Disease. I have had 2 founders in the past 2 years that stayed at a low grade of discomfort for months that improved following beginning pergolide. Interestingly trying to wean thenm back off the medication resulted in a return of discomfort.
DrO
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Member:
Ryan
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 3:58 am:
DrO, Yes I agree, one should not make generalizations. Their are many wonderful vets and farriers that care deeply for what they do. Point well taken.
I am just extremely frustrated by what I see happening to so many horses.
I know of some navicular and founder cases here locally. The two navicular cases in particular were tried every sort of shoeing method possible, wedges, pads, heartbars, eggbars, etc...and it was finally said, try bute before and after ride, when that doesn't work these horses will have to be put down.
The founder case had also been used every shoeing method possible. This beatiful QH gelding, only 10, could barely walk, could not stand on hard ground. After a couple years, he was scheduled to be put down.
These horses were taken on, and a correct barefoot trim was applied. (not strasser either).
The two naviculars are now being ridden and one is almost completely sound.
The other one, a 14 yr old big qh I rode this last Saturday. I was able to trot and canter this horse.
The founder who was to be put down, we got and trimmed. After this first trim (he was walking on his soles also, his feet were such a wreck) we walked him for about 10 minutes on grass, then turned him loose in the arena to see if he would even walk around. To our SHOCK, he whirled around on his hq's, ran kicking and bucking and squeeling like I have never heard. Their were about 18 of us to attest to this. He would run up to the fence, look at us, shake his head up and down, and take off again. He did this for about 15 minutes.
That was about 2 months ago. Just a few days ago, he went on a 3 1/2 mile walk (ponied) without boots even.
Another friend who lives in the Shelley Idaho area is trimming a servely foundered horse. The vet was very angry at the owner and insisted she put this horse down, out of its misery.
This horse has spent days laying down (she will eat and drink laying down, and prefers warm water), they have to use ropes to get her up as often as possible. She is now up and getting around, but she had such a will to live, that is why they continued with her.
As far as the foundered horse that began this thread, you say that you feel she needs shod because you think she may have inflamation in the coffin bone corium. It is likey that this horse is also very inflamed in the laminar corium.
Also, the white line is usually very stretched in a founder. What we are seeing in all of these horses we are trimming, is soundness usually only happens after the horse has a tight white line. Their is no way you can nail a shoe on and not distrupt and destroy this white line. Most horses with shoes have an awful white line.
A shoe is going to reduce shock aborption, reduce blood flow - which is paramount to healing. It will also put more of an angle on to the toe area, which does not need any more pressure ripping at that wall.
We have found that keeping the toes short and balanced with the rest of the foot makes a tremendous difference.
Paulette, their is a Cushings yahoo group which is actually comprised by mostly IR horses. They have a vet on the site that participates, and many of them have horses that have foundered.
You might be able to find alot of info helpful on that site. I would like to find out what my sisters horse I am trimming who has foundered, what his glucose/insulin levels are.
(we pulled the shoes on my sisters horse who foundered, he was very very tender, but is walking and trotting now.
ALso, the Horse Journal Jan 2001 at a very interesting article on this subject.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 31, 2002 - 7:21 am:
No Melissa, I did not begin this discussion saying that I thought this horse needs shoeing, that has been the conclusion of the people actually looking at the horse. Some very knowledgable people. I have said that I too have seen cases that required shoes to get comfortable, despite an aggessive, prolonged attempt at balancing the foot and reducing and moving back breakover.
DrO
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 24, 2002 - 11:18 pm:
I know I'm a little late on this thread, but have you considered glue on shoes? If the mare is sore, she probably would object a lot less if her foot did not have to be pounded upon.
Just a thought. It worked for my mare
Suzy
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Member:
Paulette
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 27, 2002 - 7:23 pm:
Thanks Suzy...We are going to do the glue thing. We are giving her a little time. She popped an abscess out her coronary band and we have been soaking her hoof to clean that up. Paulette
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 14, 2002 - 11:35 pm:
I hope the glue-ons do as well for you as they did for me. My mare was having abscesses too - that's why we decided she HAD to have shoes, which she doesn't normally wear. Since pounding on her feet was out of the question, my farrier suggested glue-on shoes. Actually, you might say they worked TOO well - my formerly dead lame mare quickly got to feeling so good she was running and bucking and tossed one of those little darlings! I saw her do it, so all was not lost, so to speak.
She's fine now.
Good luck,
Suzy
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Member:
Paulette
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 15, 2002 - 7:24 pm:
Suzy...can you believe that I have not got those shoes on my mare yet?! My farrier is really reluctant to try the glue on..says that he has never done it and he needs to research it further. Meanwhile he has trimmed her and I continue to soak her for the abscess. I think that I need to find a more experienced farrier. Paulette
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 16, 2002 - 6:36 am:
Hello Paulette,
If that abscess is still problematic it should be cut out of the bottom and in our area this is the veterinarians job. If nothing at the bottom can be found I start at where it popped and work myself down to it with a dremel. Removing undermined infected wall can only help. For more see the article on Abscesses (» Equine Diseases » Lameness » Foot and Sole Problems » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels).
DrO
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Member:
Suzym
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 2, 2003 - 11:16 am:
DrO is right, Paulette. You need a farrier who can work WITH your vet to get this thing opened up so it can heal. Then they can go over shoeing options with you. Your present farrier is right not to try glue-ons without experience. The farrier has to know what he/she is doing to make them work.
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 5:31 pm:
Hi, a couple of great sites on hoof care:
www.americanfarriers.org/links/index.asp
www.horseshoes.com/supplies/alphabet/allsofmf.htm
Sincerely, Tonya
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