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Discussion on Radiographs for kuring
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 5:15 pm:
I was trying to do some research about acceptable deviations in radiographs for stallion candidates (specifically belgian warmblood) In the NAWPN website I came across PROK allowances (project radiographic research kwpn). For Hock/spavin they list class 0-2 allowed. I am trying to figure out what that means. As I have posted before I have a colt coming 2 that we bought as a Stallion candidate that has ""Radiographs of the hocks revealed bilateral severe osteoarthritis of the tarso metatarsal and distal intertarsal joints. It appears the horse had collapsed tarsal bones earlier in life leading to juvenile spavin at this time. The remodeling of the joints appears very close to the proximal intertarsal joint."-(Per my vetting). I was told they did not think this to be a hereditary condition. I am just trying to get an idea if my colts deviations on his hock x-rays will be within acceptable levels. Dr. O or anyone else with experience or thoughts?
Thanks,
Zoe
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 7:06 pm:
All I can give you is my opinion Zoe and remarkable evidence of osteoarthritis in the tmt and dit in such a young horse would not be acceptable for breeding. This is despite the fact I have seen several early fused distal tarsal joints in sound young horses. Why breed such defects when the genetic factor and possible complications of such conformation defects unknown?
However for evaluation from NAWPN you should send them the radiographs. I would be interested to hear their appraisal.
DrO
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 3:06 pm:
Hi Dr. O ,
I thank you for your opinion and will keep you updated. As my vet was pretty sure that it was not genetic we are still going to try and get him approved for his intended purpose. He thinks it was caused by nutritional deficiency or some sort...
Thank You,
Zoe
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 6:29 pm:
Though I wish I could say otherwise I do not know of any support for the idea this is nutritional and common sense strongly suggests otherwise: why would a nutritional deficiency just attack these specific joints?
DrO
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 9:39 pm:
Dr. O,
I am not sure and you would know better about that then me. The breeder has had my colts sire for 10-15 years (not sure exactly when he was imported) and ha was used as a stallion in Belgium for many years before that and had a successful Grand Prix jumping career. He is about 27 now and has had many foals. This has not been a prevalent problem in his offspring. My colts dam was retires after him being in her early 20's she also had an athletes career and many successful sound babies including a full sib to my colt who is a 10 y/o level 8 Jumper. I know that the breeder was not as attentive to her horses during the pregnancy and formative first year of my guy. She had her house burn down a few years ago and was quite distracted. I do know that Fahren is on the large size for one of her babies (As was my other horse Calypso from the same Stallion). I also know that Fahren had a rough start. I am not sure of all of the details but he was "Loose" as a newborn (I think down in his pasterns among other things). He also went through a stint of overgrowth, which the breeder cared for with the LOW calorie diet and stall rest (when we x-rayed there was no evidence of there having been a problem). I hope I am not being the proverbial ostrich, but I have hopes these issues will correct. I am open to suggestions and opinions and find them very helpful. As always thank you for your insight.
Zoe
Super Sam- Full sib to Fahrenheit
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 12:37 pm:
Zoe while searching through the new pubmed posts I came across this interesting study:
Variance component estimation on the frequency of deforming arthropathies in limb joints of Hanoverian Warmblood horses
K. F. Stock, H. Hamann and O. DistlDepartment of Animal Breeding and Genetics, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Hannover, Germany
Author's address: K. F. Stock (for correspondence), H. Hamann, O. Distl, Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Bünteweg 17p, D-30559 Hannover, Germany.
Summary
Following the analysis of systematic effects, the restricted maximum likelihood (REML) approach was used to estimate genetic parameters on deforming arthropathies in distal (DIJ) and proximal interphalangeal (PIJ), fetlock (FJ) and hock joints (HJ) under both linear animal and linear sire models. The data comprised of the results of a standardized radiological examination of 3748 young Hanoverian Warmblood horses selected for sale at auction as riding horses. Of the horses 17.7% showed radiographic findings indicative of degenerative joint disease in at least one of the examined joints. HJ were found to be most often affected. The examiner as well as the date of the auction had a significant influence on the prevalence of documented radiological findings. Only deformations in DIJ appeared to be significantly dependent on the age of horse, with older horses being more often affected. With increasing height at withers the probability to show deformations of DIJ or PIJ tended to increase. Having genes of the Holstein Warmblood resulted in a higher probability to show deforming arthropathies in DIJ. The higher the proportion of Thoroughbred genes, the more likely was the horse to present slight HJ deformations (HJ I). Neither male and female founder animals nor sex, suitability or region of origin of the horse significantly influenced the prevalences of deforming arthropathies in the investigated joints. Sire effect had a significant influence on moderate alterations of HJ (HJ II). The estimation of genetic parameters was performed multivariately, including height at withers as a separate trait. When analysing deforming arthropathies in males and females together, the heritability estimates were in the range of h2 = 0.10–0.36. Separate analyses for HJ deformations in males and females revealed noticeable sex differences. Additive genetic correlations between radiological findings in HJ and in phalangeal joints (DIJ, PIJ, FJ) were estimated to be moderately positive. However, conflicting results were obtained for the additive genetic correlations between deforming arthropathies and height at withers.
If I read this correctly it suggests that the heritability of arthropathies found on incidental radiography (at sale) would be between 10 and 30 percent. I concede however I have an incomplete understanding of the meaning of "h2 heritability estimates".
DrO
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 4:33 pm:
Thank you Dr. O for that article. As always I am thankful for you and this board as a way to learn more! I was also just talking with a Vet that has developed a supplement (ocdequine.com) That he says "fixes" bone abnormalities, and that my colts skeleton may have been a poorer quality due to his dams advanced age (lower 20's) and having had multiple babies. The lack of passing on the appropriate nutrition may have caused the "dismature" hock bones which got a little crushed in the first days of life. He offers a 75 day money back guarantee so I thought it could not hurt to try...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 7:08 pm:
Geez Zoe, the idea of a veterinarian who might make such a irresponsible statement scares me. But if you will put up the ingredients and dosage rate I would be glad to review it.
DrO
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:11 pm:
Hi Dr. O,
I know...seems way to good to be true. There website is ocdequine.com They really dont say much on the website. I had been seeing this product be referred to on another message board I frequent about TB"S and racing. One of the posters was talking about great success with this product "One of the colts had a fracture and the other one had a small beginning OCD. They cleared up and had clean x-rays!" So I thought I might give it a try... Nothing like crosing your fingers and hoping for the best. There ingredients page lists:
OCDTM Pellets incorporate a blend of three distinct forms of silicon called TriBioConTM . The impact of silicon on cartilage and healthy bone formation has been documented.
The specific combination of 11 pure amino acids is the backbone of the activity produced by feeding OCDTM Pellets. As pure and bio-available as you can buy, the amino acids in OCDTM Pellets dramatically strengthen the collagen fibers in cartilage and bone. The integrity of these fibers ultimately determines the condition and long-term potential health of cartilage and bone matrix.
Vital to proper cartilage and bone formation, OCDTM Pellets contain the most body-efficient form of several key minerals, including sulfur, copper, manganese, boron and aluminum. Hyaluronic acid, yucca and glucuronic acid are key additional complexes that also support collagen formation.
And it goes on to say:
OCD's, sesamoiditis, stress fractures and just about any bone abnormality seem to be more prevalent in horses that are fed a diet high in carbohydrates and protein, and low in fiber. Other contributing factors could be related to the stress placed on horses by extensive handling, stall confinement, forced exercise, and lack of natural exercise.
One of the most dreaded messages you can get from your veterinarian is that the X-ray results of your horse indicate that it has an OCD, sesamoiditis, stress fracture or other bone-related problem. What do you do? Many veterinarians recommend surgery. But can you prevent these issues from happening in the first place? Now you have an extraordinary new option.
Enter OCDTM Pellets, a revolutionary nutritional supplement specifically formulated for pregnant mares, weanlings, yearlings, horses in training and horses diagnosed with bone abnormalities. OCDTM Pellets contain custom nutrients and specific amino acid complexes plus a proprietary blend of silicons vital minerals for strengthening collagen fibers and their cross linkages. These cross linkages are the foundation of healthy cartilage and ultimately superior OCD-free bone.
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 10:18 pm:
Hi again Dr. O,
On another but similar note, I asked the BWP (Belgian Warmblood) What their requirements for xrays/hocks were and they said "Deviations from the norm refer to OCD and evidence of navicular synDrOme. Radiographs must show evidence that a horse does not have these heritable conditions". When I had my colt x-rayed the vet said he did not think the problem was ocd. I know you may not have enough info to comment. I will add the vets summation again incase it helps: "Radiographs of the hocks revealed bilateral severe osteoarthritis of the tarso metatarsal and distal intertarsal joints. It appears the horse had collapsed tarsal bones earlier in life leading to juvenile spavin at this time. The remodeling of the joints appears very close to the proximal intertarsal joint."
I appreciate your input if you feel you have enough info.
Zoe
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 6:58 am:
Odd, attending some of the latest lectures and symposiums on arthritis and developmental orthopedic disease, and daily reading the new research and published clinical trials I have not seen anything to suggest such remarkable properties of dietary silicon. I notice it lists aluminum as a key dietary mineral when there is no known dietary need nor advantage to feeding aluminum.
We do have more information about silicon and bone metabolism at » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Feeds, & Feeding » Minerals and Nutrition and doing a bit of extra research, this appears to be the current state of scientific knowledge on this subject.
Zoe did you read my editorial on judging supplements and nutraceuticals in the latest newsletter, this is a perfect example of what I was discussing, Help & Information » What's New in Horseadvice.com.
DrO
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Member:
fahren
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 21, 2007 - 8:35 am:
Thanks Dr. O,
I will read it.
Zoe
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