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  Discussion on Minerals in Wheat and Barley Hays
Author Message
Member:
Redwood

Posted on Saturday, Nov 16, 2002 - 12:49 am:

Does anyone know the zinc and copper content of wheat hay and the copper content of barley hay?

Nancy
Member:
Amara

Posted on Saturday, Nov 16, 2002 - 8:15 am:

Hi Nancy
from the 1989 edition of the NRC book i found barley with a copper content of 3.9 mg/kg, and O for wheat hay copper/zinc....KER also uses the NRC books for their values, so i got same info from them as well..couldnt find any other info in any of my other feed books either..everyone is using 89 NRC it seems..
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 17, 2002 - 10:40 am:

Though averages are listed the content of the microminerals varies depending on soil and to a lesser extent weather conditions. If the amount of these present is critical, best they be measured in the actual foodstuff. WE list the amounts of zinc and copper in common foodstuffs at » Care for Horses » Nutrition » Minerals and Nutrition. There you will also find recommended amounts, clinical conditions associated with deficiency, and how to diagnose and prevent those problems.
DrO
Member:
Redwood

Posted on Monday, Nov 18, 2002 - 1:51 am:

Do you think I could use the values for oat hay then? I didn't see wheat hay listed in your article--am I missing something?

I'm feeding half orchard grass and half cereal grain hay. Sometimes I get wheat hay, sometimes I get oat hay, and sometimes I get a wheat/barley/oat combination. Wheat hay is low in calcium and phosphorus, so I was worrying that it might be low in other minerals too. I have to feed some alfalfa cubes to balence out the Ca:P ratio. I think my herd of donkeys is still low in copper and especially zinc. My vitamin and mineral mix doesn't provide enough to compensate, and I'm using a trace mineral block for cows. I have one donkey that just turned two, and I've read that copper and zinc are important in young equines. The young donkey also gets a pound and a half of Omelene 200 each day--but the zinc is still low. I'm using the NRC book and the Lon Lewis book for calculating nutritional requirements.

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 18, 2002 - 6:50 am:

Oat hay would be the closest but I am not sure it is the same. What do you calculate the total amount of copper and zinc your horses are getting a day / lb of body weight?

If they are using a trace mineral block it seems unlikely they are deficient, but if your diet seems low in these why not use one of the copper/zinc fortified loose mineral salts and follow the dosage recommendations under "Trace Mineral Salt Supplements" heading in the article referenced above?
DrO
Member:
Redwood

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002 - 2:31 am:

If I use the values for oat hay, the copper is okay and the zinc is only slightly low. I calculate 0.087 mg/pound of bodyweight for copper and 0.28 mg/pound of bodyweight for zinc in the oat hay, orchard grass, alfalfa cube, and vitamin-mineral supplement combination. I calculate the requirements for my four donkeys at 0.08 mg/pound for copper and 0.32 mg/pound for zinc. As I mentioned above, I was just worrying that wheat hay might be lower in these minerals.

The local feed stores usually carry only the standard trace mineral blocks which are designed for general livestock (ruminents). I haven't found any local stores that carry a loose mineral salt designed for equines. Could you recommend a brand name as I might be able to special order it? The donkeys eat very little of the current salt block, and I've been told they would eat more if it were loose salt. (And they enjoy rolling the salt block down the hill, so I have to go fetch it (>: )

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002 - 7:01 am:

The fortified trace mineral salts, with extra copper and zinc, are usually sold for cattle. But there is no reason they cannot be used as long as they are just trace mineral salts.
DrO
Member:
Dres

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002 - 10:16 am:

i ''believe'' that Purina makes a loose mineral supplement...12/12 is the name...

Ann
Member:
Amara

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002 - 1:48 pm:

Moorman's company makes a loose salt and salt block vit/min supplement, though its designed to be fed with their grain...its designed to replace reg. TM salt blocks, and i do like it..
ABC company and Dynamite company have a free choice system of diff. vit's, min's and salts, though i'm not particularly sure i believe in it
Member:
Misty

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002 - 11:52 pm:

I have been using the free choice system for over a year and I think it works great. After my horses leveled out they seem only to take in what they need. I really like the detox, it can sit there without them touching it and as soon as I worm them they all seem to need it for awhile. So I think it works great. I guess the only down side would be the cost because I have four horses and it does get expensive. The two vitamins that they seem to need everyday are the A and B. My older gelding eats a large scoop each day of both of them, but I figure he must need them. Its funny to watch them come in and bypass the oats and carrots and head for the A and B vitamins instead. I have had them tested on their vitamin levels and my vet says there doing great. The reason I switched to this system is because some friends horses were tested and their level were way to high and I think sometimes we force feed things into our horse that they don't really need.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 - 6:37 am:

Melissa, what is the copper and zinc concentration of the supplement you are using?
DrO
Member:
Amara

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 - 1:19 pm:

per ounce
3540 mg zinc
540 mg copper

i use the block, and found that my pony ran thru the first block in about a month, but has since slowed down considerably..

bonnnie, as far as the free choice ABC stuff goes, i always liked the idea, but saw that one of my boarder horses who went on it also devoured the Vit A supp... so much so that i started worrying abou vit A toxicity...with vit A being a fat soluble vitamin, meaning it gets stored, withthe amount that he went thru i was understandably worried (esp. since that his diet balanced out pretty well using the formulas)(no, formulas arent perfect, as every horse is an individual, but he would gladly go thru 8 ounces/day, well above the recommended vit A safety limit (dont ask me it off the top of my head please!))
when we cut back on his Vit A allowance, he started to put weight back on (he was having trouble holding his weight), and had a better coat... (dont know if these two things are related, but they did coincide)

so its left me to wonder if horses can truly instinctively feel what they need right down to the specific vit/min? or do they just like the taste?... certainly in the wild horses have access to diff. herbs and grasses, and there is much information about wild horses eating various plants, but the question still remains does the horse know what specific vit/min he is missing? or just go for certain plants? (i know there has been some documented stuff about horses going for limestone deposits, so there is some proof perhaps)...
i know when i turn my pony loose on our farm, or into the state pastures, its interesting to see what grasses and various plants he will go for... when i supplemented less he spent more time in the woods searching for diff. plants, and as i supplemented more he'd spend more time just eating grass...
but he never was a dirt eating pony...

hmmm.. questions unanswered...
Member:
Redwood

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 - 1:58 pm:

Thanks. I'll see if the local feedstore can get the 12/12 as they carry Purina.

The Moormans that is available here is for equines on alfalfa. The only way I can get the type available for grass hay is by buying direct from the factory, and the shipping cost is high. I already have a problem with Ca:P ratios--I don't want to have to feed more alfalfa cubes. (The Moormans I've used contains vitamins and macrominerals in addition to trace minerals.) Besides, my donkeys don't like it much. I also would be over-supplementing them as the Moormans contains more than just trace minerals.

If you look at the label for the standard Leslie salt blocks, (as I recall) the copper and zinc is low because ruminents don't need much of these minerals.

Nancy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 8:00 am:

No need to worry about the instinctual feel of horses: they will not balance their diet when given such options. There are some food stuffs that there does seem to be a built in monitor for: salt (but not macro and trace minerals) for sure and perhaps protein (but not particular amino acids).

Melissa at 1 ozs a day the amount of zinc (3.5 grams) you report is nearly toxic (5 gms)and 10x greater than the daily need for a 1000 lb horse. The copper would be twice the high end of recommended amount. Have you missed a decimal or have the units wrong? Perhaps the amount consumed from the block is significantly less than 1 oz daily?
DrO
Member:
Amara

Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 12:31 pm:

honestly, i was making an assumption when i thought 1oz/day.. its been a long time since i fed the "loose" vitamin..., so cant remember what the daily feeding dose/day was... maybe 1/2 oz...
as far as the block is concerned, like i said, the first block he went thru real quick, about a month... the 2nd block much much longer (8 months or so), so he surely wasnt getting 1oz/day... he's still got the scraps of his latest block, again, but since i've put him on an herbal vit/min supp, he's virtually ignored it... has been working a bit more at his TM salt block tho, so at some point i'll need to go back and recheck his nutrition program, since this is something fairly new...
(i put him on the herbal vit/min supp because i felt that the block wasnt providing enough of the microminerals, esp. considering the depletion of mineral content in the soils in my area (New england,"cheap" farming methods (no crop rotation, manure spreading, etc... just NPK).. i left the block out just to see what would happen... he's pretty much not touched it since i put him on the herbal stuff...
Member:
Redwood

Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 3:33 pm:

I would also worry about over-supplementing vitamin A. Even if 70% of the vitamin A is lost in storage of hay, most hays would still contain enough. Plus a simple carrot a day would most likely add enough vitamin A to the diet and would be far safer. Excess beta-carotene is not toxic, but excess vitamin A can be.

I thought vitamin B only rarely needs to be supplemented, but certainly not in a healthy equine. Perhaps if antibiotics are being administered, B would need to be supplemented.

I think the only vitamin that can be lacking in a diet of decent hay (versus pasture) is vitamin E as most is lost before the hay is even baled.

I do use a vitamin-mineral supplement, but mainly because the hay I can get here is always different and sometimes of poor quality. I have one two-year old and one 22+ year donkey, so I want to make sure the "herd" has good nutrition.

Nancy
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