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Discussion on Spring shots for reactive horses
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 7:53 am:
It's the time of year I dread, Hank and Flash usually have pretty bad reactions to their shots, rabies especially. Last year they didn't get their rabies shots, but this year I am going to try it again. I had the vet order the intervet brand instead of fort dodge. My horses don't seem to tolerate Fort Dodge vaccines very well.
I do give them bute 3 days prior to the vaccines and 3 days after...it helps but they still get very sore and slow. I thought Flash was going to die last year after the vaccines, she laid around very "sick" for days. Last year they got EWT and west nile (fort dodge)...the ewt was intervet.
2 questions should I give the 3 shots at once, or do the rabies ....wait a few weeks and do the other 2? Which will cost a fortune, with 2 vet calls. I only gave them the 2 shots last year and still had the reactions, so would I be better off doing it all at once and just have the reactions and be done with it?
Question 2... maybe if I tried a different brand of west nile, other than Fort Dodge we wouldn't have the problem at all? Has anyone tried the other brands? I THOUGHT I read somewhere there was a nasal west nile coming on the market, but I'm not sure. Opinions?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 8:36 am:
Diane we address the questions on strategies with severe reactions in the article on adverse reactions. There is no intranasal WN vaccine but there are several choices, I would try other brands if the WNV seems to be the one causing problems, for more on products available see the article on West Nile Virus.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 9:36 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I have read the articles, but I re-read just in case I missed something. I see that one of your suggestions is giving banamine along with the shots. I wonder if IV banamine given at the time of the shots would help more than the bute? The bute really doesn't help alot...but it does a little.
In the case of Flash, I wonder if she was colicing from the way she was acting and the banamine would be a better choice? She tends to be rather intolerant of bute after a few doses...and does better with her aches and pains given banamine.
If I choose to try banamine instead do you just give one dose, or continue for a day or 2 after the shots? I think that may be the strategy I try this year...THANKS for pointing me back to your great articles!
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 4:56 pm:
I didn't read the article. I am sure it address's this but if it were me I know my vet would recommend doing them separately as she doesn't like to give too many vaccines at once also if there was a reaction you can tell for sure which vaccine caused the worse reaction. It's safer as they don't have to tolerate to many things working at once in there body. Its safer and lessens the likelihood of a reaction. If there was a reaction you would be getting the vet out any way. I would choose to do them seperatly. Maybe I should read the article before posting. but thats what I would do.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 5:10 pm:
Thanks Katrina, I have split them before that's how I know the rabies shot was the worse...followed by the WN. The ewt didn't SEEM to bother them, and I use intervet brand for that. Hopefully switching totally away from Fort Dodge will help.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 7:27 pm:
We had a mare who would sometimes get laminitis following a shot (happened 3 times, from various shots). We were advised to give a banamine injection about an hour before the scheduled shots, and also to use Tri-hist granules for several days. I can't remember the schedule, but think it was for 3 days before, day of, and a few after. Now I have a gelding whose rear legs blew up after shots one summer, so with him I decided to not give everything at once. I just go ahead and pay for the two farm calls. Another friend of mine had a mare have a terrible reaction after lots of shots on the way home from a long hard ride on a hot day. He wrapped her legs and feet in ice wraps as a precaution and gave a banamine shot. I don't believe she needed a second injection -- one did the trick.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 10:45 pm:
Vicki did the banamine work for the mare who got laminitis? That is another of my concerns, 2 of my horses are prone to laminitis and vaccinations always make them a little "footy".
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 11:49 pm:
Diane, you and I must get together to whine about our problem children. I dread shot time as well. I put off the rabies to every other year, and put them a month apart. Levi had his 5 way shot, so that we could cover the tetanus issue with his leg cut. That and the penicillin combined could be why he was so uncomfortable. He is a tough cookie though, so I hope he is back to his normal obnoxious self tomorrow.
Good Luck with getting your guys protected.
suz
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 11:51 pm:
Diane, do you do the intranasal flu vaccine every year? Any trouble with that one?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 8:03 am:
No Susan I keep it very basic, my horses don't travel away from the farm. They only get EWT. WN. and this year rabies.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 9:01 am:
If you think the flunixin works better Diane that is fine. Most horses we pretreat do well with bute but either is fine.
Vicki the founder you had was probably the stiffness brought on by a sore neck: it looks like founder because the horses shuffle around stiffly and may have a fever with the feet very warm (for more on this see Adverse Reactions). It is not impossible but reported nor anything I have ever seen.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 9:43 am:
Dr.O. should a person give banamine for a couple days after also?
I hate to be argumentative, but I have had horses get laminitis from vaccines before...it took a while to put it altogether. The vet and I looked back on the records and every attack was shortly after vaccines.
Spring shots do occur about the time the grass starts growing, so for an experiment we moved their shots to March when the grass is not growing yet. They still foundered. This happened to 2 horses I owned.
I think it is the cumlative affect of the change of seasons, spring grass, less excersise, and the vaccines. I think the vaccines tend to push them over the edge so to speak.
Since catching on to this in my easy keepers. Spring shots are a little earlier and hopefully they aren't obese. It has helped alot, as far as the laminitis being set off from the vaccines.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 1:04 pm:
Diane, always seperated shots, we give 3 way and west nile and work on teeth another time, things go much better! The mustang really reacts to shots so he gets 1 shot of banamine with other shots.Our vet said since there has not been a case of rabies in our area for decades to not go there for now.Lots of trouble with Ft.Dodge 2 years ago so bad my vet called them ... they do the side ways two step very well. Having horses is certainly rift with "what ifs" but we do love'em! Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 7:09 pm:
You are not being argumentative, you are just saying what you think happened and I was not there to see the horses. However as the article on adverse reactions already states this is a commonly made mistake. I have seen others make the same mistake dozens of times. And despite having given tens of thousands of vaccines in my life time, don't remember a single founder I could attribute to a vaccine that I can remember.
You can use the same recommendations for the time for use of flunixin as bute that is outlined in the article.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 8:16 pm:
Dr. O, I have read that about the "neck stiffness" and perhaps it not really being laminitis, but this was no little bit of soreness, but was the total laminitic stance even at rest and a complete unwillingness to walk. The 3 times it happened I had the Vet. out, and he is the one who diagnosed "laminitis" and prescribed the treatment. And actually, the horse did NOT seem stiff in the neck, but had all of the classic signs of laminitis. I aggressively iced her legs and feet around the clock for 3 days, gave banamine twice daily for 3 days, and bute for 3 days, gradually reducing the amount -- (that was what was advised to me for treatment back in the early to mid 90's when they were not so worried about combining the two). One of the times it happened she began breaking out in bumps right after the 4-way vaccination, and very quickly was laminitic. What was curious is that this did not always happen -- only in those 3 instances, (and it took us the 3 times before we tied it to the shots -- maybe "the carrying agent.") I felt that it additionally related to the horse being overly fat at those times, (perhaps already at the edge of laminitis with the vaccination sending her over the edge?) and un-worked during the time that it happened, and once was during a time a trainer had told my daughter to give extra corn-oil and Calf-Manna, to make the horse "look" better for showing. My Vet, however, said she was a horse who needed to be kept more on the ribby side. Perhaps if she had not been allowed to become over-nourished and under-worked she would not have had the "reaction." Eventually she was turned into a roping horse with regular work and fared well. I explained the situation when she left my farm so there would be no surprises. Yes, Diane, only the one banamine shot was given preventatively -- about an hour before, plus the Tri-hist, which helps with allergies and has pseudephedrine in it. Perhaps there were coincidences at work, but my Vet. also consulted with a very experienced equine Vet. regarding the treatment for future vaccinations.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 12, 2007 - 7:33 am:
Hello Vicki,
I have not said that vaccinated horses cannot get founder that would be a foolish statement to make.
In my experience I have not seen a vaccine induced founder, nor searching the 40 years of Pubmed enteries which includes veterinary clinical cases from all the major veterinary medical periodical, is there a case described, nor have I ever seen it as a reported complication of the safety studies done for vaccine approval. On the other hand about 5 to 10% (that would make it millions of horses in the US) of the vaccinated horses get sore necks and the primary symptom of a sore neck and founder are the same: a stiff pottery gait. I have had clients confuse this stiff neck with founder, particularly if they have had a real founder before, because they look so similar.
The second comment is if you need a antihistimine we suggest that you do not use Tri-Hist as clinical trials have not found pyrilamine (the antihistimine in Tri-Hist) an effective drug in horses. For more on this and recommended antihistimines see, Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Bumps / Nodules / Warts / Tumors » Hives, Wheals, and Urticaria in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Mar 12, 2007 - 7:56 am:
wow Dr 0 that is interesting that a sore neck from a shot can look like founder. Something to remember and a good thing to know.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 8:55 am:
Hi, Dr.O. I happened across this when doing some research. Would this also work for horses? It seems the rabies vac. is kinda based on dogs anyway?
Just curious. Thanks
Rabies DNA vaccination by the intranasal route in dogs.
* Tesoro Cruz E,
* Hernandez Gonzalez R,
* Alonso Morales R,
* Aguilar-Setien A.
Departamento de Investigacion Experimental y Bioterio del Instituto Nacional de Ciencias Medicas y Nutricion Salvador Zubiran, Mexico. emiliano_tesoro@hotmail.com.mx
A DNA vaccine, using a pCl-neo plasmid encoding the glycoprotein gene of a Mexican isolate of rabies virus, was developed to induce long-lasting protective immunity against rabies virus in dogs. The aim of this work was to evaluate the intranasal (IN) vaccination route in mice and dogs. Mice and dogs were immunized via the intramuscular (IM) and IN routes. Mice received 50 microg of DNA vaccine, a booster on day 30, using the same doses and routes, and on day 90 they were challenged. Dogs received 100 microg of DNA vaccine, with a booster on day 180, and immune responses were studied on day 210. Virus-neutralizing antibodies were detected in blood sera (up to 0.5 IU) in animals immunized via the IN route and when the animals were submitted to a booster, the levels of neutralizing antibodies increased. Animals vaccinated via the IM route presented higher neutralizing antibody titres than those vaccinated IN. Control groups lacked anti-rabies antibodies. On day 90, mice were challenged. From these, a 100 % of the IM vaccinated mice, and an 80 % of the IN vaccinated mice survived the challenge. No animals from the control group survived. Dogs revealed significant virus-neutralizing antibody titres (up to 0.5 IU) on day 30 and, after booster, on day 210 neutralizing antibody titre was higher than 1.8 IU. The main advantage of using DNA vaccines over traditional live ones is that there is no contamination with viruses that could be disseminated in the environment and reproduced in susceptible animals. This study demonstrated that pGQH was succesful when administrated via the IN route. IN vaccination seems attractive due to its easy application and mucosal protection. This form of vaccination could also be advantageous in domestic animal vaccination campaigns, for it is less stressful than the parenteral route (no painful shots).
PMID: 16878480 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 1:16 pm:
This is an experimental vaccines, whose efficacy in the test was considerable less than the injectable form. Until experiments are carried out on horses we won't know its efficacy.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 31, 2007 - 8:23 am:
Hi Dr.O. the horses had their EWT. WN, vaccinations yesterday morning. The geldings were pre buted and are still getting bute probably until Sun.
I decided to try the banamine with Flash...the old girl who does not seem to tolerate vaccines well.
This morning the geldings are doing very well. the old girl is quidding and her sides are all drawn up. She doesn't seem stiff, but very uncomfortable. She ate her food much slower, but cleaned it up. I could tell she had been laying down more last night as she was covered with shavings...she usually isn't. The vet gave her 12 cc banamine IV when he administered her shots. I have banamine paste and wondered if I should give her another dose this morning. She weighs around 850#'s, the vet gave her 12 cc's...should I give her the higher dosage also? if I should give it at all? and for how long if so? Thanks
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Member:
freshman
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 31, 2007 - 10:12 pm:
I'm certainly not Dr. O, but I can't see any harm in giving the horse another dose of banamine at least 12 hours after the last one. I'd not push the dosage, though; try her on 8.5cc, which would be the standard dose of 1ml/100lbs body weight. If the horse needs something more, it needs to be seen by a veterinarian anyway.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 6:49 am:
I gave her 8cc yesterday morning, and it seemed to help some. She didn't move around the pasture with the geldings, but watched them and was alert. Last night at feed time the geldings and her neck were blowing up on the side they got the WN vaccine. We will see what this morning brings. The EWT was intervet and so far no reaction from that. The vet didn't have anything but Fort Dodge WN.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 7:51 am:
Diane, it would not be responsible to diagnose and treat your horse over the internet so this needs to be discussed with your veterinarian.
What you describe is a common symptom of vaccine reactions and Banamine will would help alleviate vaccine reactions and the recommended safe dosages are in the article Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Flunixin (Banamine). But you should discuss this with your veterinarian.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2007 - 8:05 am:
Thanks Dr.O I hope I am not jumping the gun here, but she was back to normal this morning. Their necks are almost back to normal and everyone is frisky and happy. (40 mph winds)
Thanks so much for the great article suggesting banamine! I think it made a big difference in the mare!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 7:50 am:
Hi Dr.O. The horses got their rabies vaccination yesterday afternoon. The geldings were pre-treated with bute...the mare banamine.
This morning their necks are pretty swollen, but Hank is acting weird. He is eating fine, but he keeps kicking his belly like he is colicy. He is also walking strangely behind...like his back end doesn't want to follow his front end? He is still on bute, he doesn't have a temp. The rest of his vitals are wnl. Should I give him some banamine? and just keep an eye on him. His swelling is not hard but soft...right now. Why would he be walking so funny? Does this warrant a vet call? Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 11:16 am:
I talked to the vet and he said he was going to come out (free of charge) because he wants to see the strange reaction in person. I'll let you know what he says. He also told me....like you Dr.O. he has very rarely seen reactions in horses to vaccinations. Hank was very happy and sound, before the vaccination and the vet even commented on how good he looked.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 1:30 pm:
Oh Diane, as soon as you take a breath something else happens, sorry to hear this. Hoping he's better this morning!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 2:16 pm:
Hey Diane, I can feel for you. It seems like anything that can come our way, does. I think we deserve a bit of a rest now, don't you. Keep us posted.
Suz & Levi
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Member:
twhgait
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 3:12 pm:
Diane, mine all just got their spring shots yesterday, and although nobody gets too sore afterwards, I always hold my breath for a few days after. I hope Hank feels better soon. Is it possible he's walking funny behind because of the pain in his neck?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 3:37 pm:
One of my horses has a bad reaction to rabies also. I give it in her neck and some years I've really worried as the amount of soreness she has just seems so horrible. Walking funny, very sore, hanging her head to one side. Weird. Last year I skipped that one and am debating if I should do Rabies this year.
Hope they all feel better soon. Let us know what the vet says.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 14, 2007 - 4:19 pm:
Vet just called and he had an emergency call and won't be coming. He said to keep an eye on him and continue with the bute. His neck doesn't really seem sore yet...but there is a big sweling there. The funny walking is better and he isn't kicking his belly anymore. His digital pulses were bounding again this afternoon...they have been quiet since his shoes. I hope he gets over this alright he's been doing so well.
Angie, I skipped rabies last year also and had a big discussion with the vet about it. He said rabies is not endemic in this area, and it was up to me as far as the vaccination goes.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 7:30 am:
Dr.O. I have been giving Hank 1 gram of bute AM and PM since Thurs. morning. They had their shots Fri. afternoon. Flash and Sam seem good, so I discontinued their bute and banamine yesterday afternoon.
This morning Hank is MUCH better the swelling is down and he is almost back to normal....but still nqr. I didn't bute him this morning yet anyway.
Should I knock back the bute to 1 today and see how he does or just discontinue it altogether? I forgot to add this is the first year our shots went relatively well. MUCH better than the last couple years...I want to thank you for the great article about reactions...I think it helped alot!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 11:20 am:
Diane, you should treat or not treat based on the clinical signs, your goals, and the safety of continued use. I can educate you on these issues but the final decisions for you to make with the help of your veterinarian.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 12:35 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I didn't want to call the vet on a Sunday, He SEEMS fine now, pulses are gone, swelling is just about gone,and he is acting like his normal obnoxious self...I may even take him on a short ride today. I will skip the bute altogether and hope for the best! Hanks says Thanks TOOO, he was very happy not to get a sore neck for the first time in years and be able to continue to graze...his FAVORITE thing
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New Member:
ladylark
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 6:49 pm:
Hi All:
My first post and I hope all goes well. A Vet gave my horses (two Peruvian Paso mares and an Arabian gelding) their spring shots several weeks ago. They received E/W Encephalitis, Flu, Rabies, Rhino, Strangles, Tetnus and they were wormed. The Arab is fine, both mares had a reaction. The first one (Lark) was stiff, walking funny, sore neck within 18 hours, 4 days of Bute and she was back to normal. The other mare (Mia) seemed a little stiff the next day but her symptoms gradually got worse and on the 6th day she could barely get up and walk. I called the Vet, he came and said she had developed laminitis in reaction to the shots. I started giving her 2gm Bute morning and night. He said to put her out on pasture for an hour or so every day but that just seems to make her worse. So, I am still giving the Bute, when I stop she walks stiffly. Her appetite is pretty normal, not so her personality. She is lethargic except when the other horses go out to pasture.
My question for you Dr. O is: Would a response for this length of time be typical or usual? The shots were given on March 31st, almost 4 weeks now. I am getting her feet x-rayed on Sat. I want to see what the coffin bone looks like. I have taken her totally off of fresh pasture for about 10 days now and only giving her bermuda hay. No grain! The no grain may be the cause of her personality shift. I am worried and I will never let someone give her that much "system shock" again. This is the first reaction I have ever had during spring shots. I think from now on I will spread out her shots into several weeks. Any advise from you would be appreciated. Should I let her have some fresh grass soon? How do I know when to let her out for an hour or so? Will Bute hurt her over a 3 or 4 week period?
Thanks,
Eva
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 10:05 pm:
Dr. O, can help you out Eva, but having gone through all of these laminitis problems, I know that I would keep her off of Spring grass completely, until you have the results of the x-ray. A weakened lamini and rich spring grass just don't go well together.
Good Luck, it is so hard to watch them suffer. Have you tried padding her feet, to make her more comfortable?
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 11:08 am:
Hello Eva,
What we need is to have you post in a new discussion rather than at the bottom of Diane's. But before you do I want you to review :
- Horse Care » Horse Vaccines, Vaccination, Coggins Test » Vaccines and Adverse Reactions
- Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview
- Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Phenylbutazone (Bute)
They should answer you most specific questions but is likely to give rise to others.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 7:14 am:
Hi Dr.O. I'm hoping you can help me sort this out. It just don't make sense to me or the vet. Hank has been locked in a mud pen since the day of his rabies shot. Absolutely NO grass, since this rabies shot his hitch in his get along came back and he seems to be foundering now. If you read further up his pulses were bounding...then went away for a day, and came back a few days later.
He is DrOpping weight...on purpose. My vet examined him a week ago Sat. and noted the bounding pulses in all 4 feet. At that time he was walking fine, except that hitch. Mon. morning he was walking very stiffly in front... not rocked back but very sore. I gave him some banamine and by that afternoon he looked better. There is some heat in his front hooves, but the pulse is going down. I have been maintaining him on 2 grams a bute a day. I have talked daily to my vet and he has no idea what could have brought this on...other than the shot. As stated above he was happy and very sound the day of the shot.
The farrier and the vet are coming this afternoon to pull his shoes, and examine him. My vet, like you has a hard time believing a shot could do this...but he highly suggested Hank doesn't ever get a rabies shot again. There is no trigger for this episode otherwise. No grass, no grain, no hard ground....3 flakes of grass hay a day. He is overweight, but really not bad...I'd rate him between a 6-7.
Last year he did not get a rabies shot and did not have any problems. From this history do you think this is vaccination related? I will report the vets finding this afternoon...maybe it's an abscess or his shoes. He was shod 5 weeks ago. Thanks
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 9:25 am:
Diane, not that this will help with your current problem, but I'm just curious. Do you have rabies in your area? We quit giving rabies shots since we have had no incidents of rabies in our area for many years. This was on our vets recommendation after one of our horses had a reaction to the shot. If you do have cases of rabies in your area, then I guess it's safer to continue to give them.
Remember Lil'Bit? He was the one that had the reaction, which included laminitis. Although it didn't make sense, he would develop laminitis after even things like being lightly trimmed, changes in weather, any little things that was different. The reactions became more severe after he became cushinoid. I hope Hank doesn't become like this! I'm glad you are working on getting his weight down.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 10:39 am:
Sara, and DrO,
I have been wondering also about giving Rabies and other shots. My horses get sore from that one too. Seems that I read that it's been over 40 years since there was a rabid animal in any species here in MI.
But yet we automatically vaccinate our horses every spring for the same things. Yet many never vaccinate for anything, and I have yet to hear of any horror stories of horses getting ill or dying. Not saying it don't happen.
I can see giving tetanus and having the quick acting one on hand (sorry, I forget which is which) And if you are raising foals, showing and leaving the farm a lot, then I think that increases the risk of your horse getting something, and you should adjust your vaccination program accordingly.
Just how bad is E & W Sleeping sickness? Flu? I don't mean how bad is the illness, but do you still see horses ill with any of these?
Yes, I will still give my horses their spring shots! Just pointing out that sometimes we do things just because it's always been done that way.
(be gentle with your reply please Doc, grin)
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 2:01 pm:
Same thing here no rabies in decades so our vet doesn't recommend shot because of Ellie's laminitis. Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 3:17 pm:
There were equine rabies cases last fall about 100 mi. east of us and 50 mi. south of us.
My vet and I discussed it in length, as I was apprehensive about giving it. He said there were no rabies cases that he was aware of in our county, and the shot was completely up to me (I should have known better)things were going too well. The equine rabies and cattle cases 50 mi. south of us just seemed a little close for comfort. The rabies cases were skunk rabies and we have plenty of them around here. Will report vets findings after he comes today.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 3:51 pm:
I'd have nade the same decission, Diane. Rabies is nothing to fool around with. Bummer! Poor Hank and poor you!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 6:55 pm:
Well farrier pulled shoes, Vet hoof tested...reactive in toes, but not horrible. Vet called it sub-acute? Pulses pounding in fores, back pulses are now gone. Treatment is to put on styrofoam..which I did and it made a big difference. Continue with bute or banamine until pulses go back to normal. Then we are going to shoe with an equithane pad for frog support. Hopefully I caught it in time, the vet felt I did and it is mild.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 8:08 pm:
Hey Diane, I am so sorry you are back in stress ville again. I swear, we get a week of not worrying with our boys, and then bam! Something else to worry about. Levi and I will pray to the Hoof god to help poor Hank
I am handwalking Levi and building up his time on the grass up to about 20 minutes. I am so worried about letting him out in this beautiful pasture we have. It is such a shame, I have acres of green grass smelling sweet, and my boys have to stay in a mud yard, eating last years hay. But I am going to wait it out this year.
Levi had Rabies last year, and I am going to hold off on it for him this year as well.
"Hank" in there, he will be fine in no time.
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 9:20 pm:
I know Susan we have 40 acres of lush green grass and the horses are in a small dry lot. It's much better than founder I guess, although it didn't help this time. When Hank hopefully stabilizes we will run the cattle thru the horse pasture to mow it. Stupid cows are good for something! and hopefully they can start some very short grazing time.....time will tell I guess. It is getting very frustrating!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 11:31 pm:
Diane, you might want to re-read about lush pastures, founder, cushings, etc. I just did to refresh my poor memory. I'm afraid of the grasses too, and have been slowly building up to their eating for several hrs. ea. morning. I've let several of them stay out for the night for the first time this year. I'll bring them in before it warms up in the morning.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 6:53 am:
Sara my NORMAL routine is turnout for about an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening until they are use to it, then gradually increasing the time, if they aren't gaining weight. Which seemed to work over the last few years.
They won't be seeing any grass until Hank is completely over this and then it will be for VERY SHORT periods. 15 mins. twice a day probably. First I have to get Hank going in the right direction, which I'm sure will take mos.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 7:50 am:
Maybe I should move this to the founder section? This morning Hank is a little better, but now his back pulses are very high again and he is still weight shifting quite a bit. His front pulses are down a little. The styrofoam is scrunched so adding another layer today SHOULD help....I hope.
Dr.O should I pad his rears also? I've never done that before?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 9:06 am:
Diane, I think it may be shot related but find a soreness from the injection more likely. It looks just like founder and I know how sensitive y'all are to a pulse in the foot you have found them for years when there was no lameness. However I am not there and you must rely on your and your veterinarians findings and if you believe this is founder induced by the vaccination and the risk of rabies less than the risk the injection, you should not give it.
Angie, the last time I looked Michigan had a high rate of rabies and the last year for which I can find numbers, 2001, there were about 30 cases that year. In most areas of the continental US rabies is a significant and growing problem.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 9:51 am:
Oh Diane, I'm so sorry! I too would have done what you did... rabies is a horrible thing! I have nothing but confidence that you will take the best care of Hank... hang in there!!!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 10:29 am:
Diane, I'm so sorry. Like Dr. O said, you have to rely on your instincts and your vet and do what you can. Have you ever used carpet scrapes under the styrafoam? It is cushioning and doesn't mash down as quickly. Wish you were closer; I have a lifetime supply of stuff to use for padding on feet!
Also, there is a great product that I discovered while in California. It's a thick, dense foam pad precut to hoof size. You can get them from Equine Digit Support System, Inc. (719) 372-7463 fax: (719) 372-7272; 506 Hwy 115, Penrose, CO 81240. It's about $11.00 for a set of four pads. I don't know if they have a web site or not.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 10:54 am:
Dr.O This Is founder, he doesn't have a sore neck, he didn't get a sore neck this year. He bends and turns his neck fine.
I know I am a digital pulse freak, but the vet said his were way beyond normal and "raging", so it was confirmed by a vet that they are beyond normal.
Also he hoof tested sore in the toe the rest of the hoof was fine.
Sara, my foam pads mimic the edss system and is much cheaper! From my understanding the first set of foam should mooosh down to support the frog and coffin bone. the 2nd application "over the 1st" is more for cushioning.
With rabies being so close, to us and as Dr.O. noted getting more prevelant I thought it wise to give the shots. I have a whole year to fret about next years vaccinations 
Thanks guys for your support, I am sure I will be "whining" some more about this, I just hope he snaps out of it.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 11:29 am:
Whine all you want, Diane. Just wish there was something I could do to help! I'm not the decision to give the rabies shots if it's near or in your area. If anyone has ever seen an animal with rabies they'd be beating down the door to get the shots. It's a terrible disease!
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 12:38 pm:
I agree with Sara, I had questioned my vet about rabies shots last year, he proceeded to tell me the saddest story ... horrifying really... do whine all you want... heaven knows I do 
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 2:51 pm:
DrO,
Thank you for the update on rabies. Apparently someone was misinformed; wish I could remember if a vet, equine dentist or farrier, or if it was something I read that I got that info from. As I've been thinking about it, I am leaning towards hearing it directly not just reading something.
Diane, hope things look better soon at your barn.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 3:29 pm:
We got our shots yesterday and I'm a little jumpy today after all these posts, so far OK did ask about rabies again and still nothing,so I passed. My vet did say that you were right Diane those cases were too close. We have lived trapped skunks here spray painted them and taken them 20 miles away and the little varmints return!! Brite orange and brite pink were back in a month! My vet so agreed with Dr. O fresh air is the best. So Dr.O ??? what if you treated it with oxygen as from a small tank ?? Diane if we all direct the same healing prayers to Hank it should work! Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 4:43 pm:
2nd styrofoam pad added and he is walking right out, bucking, trotting and showing his displeasure with lock up!! YEAH!!!! If anyone has a horse with acute laminitis I can not recommend these pads enough. It is simple to apply...Hard to remove tho, I put way too much Duct tape on. Vet and farrier said if he is stabilized next week we can do the shoes with equithane. Keep your fingers crossed that we are on the mend.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 5:09 pm:
Diane, the May issue of "the Horse" just came and for ALL of us who have and those who will deal with laminitis/ founder it is full of info and pictures! Much we know by heart from here but also new stuff! If duct tape sticks use peanut butter to remove. Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 6:35 pm:
Cindy, HMMM peanut butter, I bet Hank would lick that right up! The duct tape doesn't stick to his hooves, I just put it on so thick it is hard to cut and remove. From experience I have learned if it isn't thick enough they wear right thru it if they are allowed to move about. I'll have to check out the article...Thanks.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 9:26 pm:
Old Reader's Digest solution to removing sticky stuff it does work. So if adhesive residue won't come off use a little peanut butter. Most of the magazine is devoted to laminitis! And yes Ellie likes to like my fingers. Also I've seen those pads work wonders. Best of Luck. Cindy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 7:57 am:
Dr.O. Yesterday after padding Hanks feet with the styrofoam he looked very good. Last night I decided to see how he would be without bute. He has been getting 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening.
He's been on bute since all this started. This morning he was pretty sore again...not as bad as before the styrofoam....but bad enough.
How long do we keep up with the bute. When he was walking this morning his backend looks un cordinated again. He almost fell over to the side.
He don't act like his back feet hurt and he is not standing back on his rears like a severely foundered horse.(yet) That uncoordination happened after his shot also. It's like his rear don't want to follow his front, staggering so to speak.
I pulled his tail and he pulled back and gave me a dirty look. Is there any other neurologic tests I can do on him? Could this "staggering be related to the founder? I have to wonder if it is a different entity, because it happened shortly after the shot and he didn't seem to be foundering at the time. I will be in touch with the vet tomorrow, but hoping you could offer up an opinion.
His diet remains the same 1 flake stemmy hay in the morning and 2 at night, a HANDFUL of lite balance pellets 2 times a day to get the bute in him. He has NO grazing, but can move about in a small dry lot at will. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 9:21 am:
The bute should be used until the horse is comfortable without it Diane. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 9:39 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I figured that and I guess you don't know if they are comfortable without it until you take it away . He is kicking his belly again, but doesn't seem to be colicy. There are not any flies yet. It almost seems involuntary, like he doesn't know he's doing it, he kicks it pretty hard, then jumps...like who did that?? very weird. I picked his back feet up to clean them and he was fine with that. He doesn't seem terribly sore in front, his backend is the weird thing. Is there anything I should have the vet check? He stands square...not rocked back. I know this is something I should keep in it's place..BUT his pulses are bounding in his rears again. IF he is getting laminitis in his rears, could it present like this? Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 10:47 am:
Decided to take Hank for a hand walk in the pasture...also let the other 2 out. Hank was dancing and prancing. When the other 2 zoomed by...there was no holding him. He could have won the Kentucky derby, tail flowing in the air and his canter/gallop looked wonderful. They were so happy to get out, they didn't even care about the grass....but I was watching. Hank and herd zoomed around for 10 mins. before they thought about the grass. Soon as his head went down I put them back in. Maybe this belly kicking thing is behavioral.
The vet said if he could get some exercise it would be good, I just hope he didn't damage the fronts. They all looked much happier after their race around the pasture. Hank even beat Sam in the back stretch....which doesn't happen often...even when he's sound. He did have his pads on during this gallop, so hopefully he didn't do any damage. There was no catching them until they blew that steam off.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 3:03 pm:
Oh, Diane... they really do teach us patience, don't they!
If Brave REALLY hurts, he won't even walk much, if his adrenalin kicks in he'd only take about 5 steps and stop ... How is he now?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 3:20 pm:
Aileen he seems much better, maybe the poor things are getting stiff from not moving around much. They are use to being out 24/7. They all look brighter and happier. Hanks lameness doesn't seem worse and surprisingly maybe a little better. Hank is such a pansy that if his feet were killing him he wouldn't move either, maybe 5 steps with adrenalin as you said.
I think I may leave them out once a day for a good gallop if he doesn't seem any worse tomorrow.
How is Brave doing? I've been thinking of you guys.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 6:51 pm:
Thanks for asking I just saw Brave take about 15 trot strides... down hill ... no headbob ... and no boots yet, they are on order still... I'll take what I can get but he's improving by bits and pieces, but daily
Is Hank still on bute? If he was on bute when he had a "hay day" I'd bute him tonight to keep down any inflammation, then try not giving it in the morning and see how he does... but you've probably already thought of that ... Just my two cents
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 7:03 pm:
Aileen as long as Brave is improving, that's about all we can hope for.
Hanks pads fell off, which is hard to believe the way I duct tape, and vet rap them. His derby day must have loosened them up. He didn't SEEM too bad without them so I left them off.
I did think of the bute and gave him a gram tonite...hopefully he isn't immobilized tomorrow morning.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Apr 30, 2007 - 7:59 am:
This morning Hank seemed O.K. He is walking a little tenderly, but is better that the last couple days.
His pulses are way down. I am going to call the farrier and see if we can get his shoes and equithane pads on this week. I think I am also going to knock him back to 1 gram of bute a day, and let him out to move around once a day....that really seemed to help him.....no grass tho
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 8:01 am:
Diane,
Assuming the horse is foundering I would not put shoes back on a foundered horse until about 3 weeks of soundness and I would not allow free exercise until off the bute and sound. This causes further tearing of the laminae. I like the idea of slowly adjusting down the dosage of the bute if he is doing well and once off it consider the above changes.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 10:52 am:
Hang in there Diane Maybe handwalk Hank while the others are locked up
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 5:21 pm:
Problem is Dr.O. I don't think Hank will ever be "sound" without shoes. He is better, but walks like he still has sore feet on hard ground. On soft ground he looks O.K. I have the thin sole thing working against me also!
I know Dr.O. I certainly cringed when he took off, at that time his feet were padded and the ground softer. I think that is what saved him from even worse soreness.
I did handwalk him today and he is still pretty sore on hard ground, but on soft ground he looks good.
The vet said when his "raging" pulses go down and he is o.k. on soft ground to try the shoes with the equithane pads. Both has happened, so the farrier is going to shoe him tomorrow. Do you think this is too early? I THINK he will be more comfortable, but who knows until we try it I guess. I hope it don't make him worse. He's walking more like a sore footed horse than one that is foundering? I hope you know what I mean by that.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 6:14 am:
These are not judgements I can make Diane without examination. I remain uncertain that your horse was foundering. But if you feel he is back to normal for him and well enough to be turned back out he may be well enough to have shoes back on. I usually move slower with founders.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 6:41 am:
Thanks Dr.O. He is not going to be turned out there is way too much grass. The vet called it founder, the only other thing would be bi-lateral bruising. He did have that this winter if you recall my post on that, when he had the red rings on his soles. The only thing is he was Sound after the shoes went on and remained that way until the day after his rabies shot which was Apr. 13. Even if he had gotten a sore neck it would be gone in a few days from my experience. Between the heat in his hoof, the bounding pulses, hoof test, and the way he walked at the time we are quite certain he was having a lamanatic attack. When I had the vet out he was still in his truck when he saw Hank and said I don't even need to examine him...He's foundering. He did examine him tho and confirmed what I was sure was happening. He did think I caught and treated it early and it was mild.
I'll let you know how the shoeing goes, I hope I don't make him worse.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 1:24 pm:
Good luck, Diane. Thinking of you and Hank.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 8:09 pm:
Thanks LL, Hank has his shoes and pads on now and there was a big improvement immediately. He is not 100% but I think he will be in a day or two (I HOPE)
He tolerated the pounding and standing on one foot much better than we thought he would. He did have a gram of bute at 6 this morning. Tonight he got another gram and from there I am going to start tapering him off it and see what happens...I THINK he's on the mend now! . Of course I have thought that before.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 8:52 am:
Good good good! Hooves crossed
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 7:11 am:
I am glad I gave the horses their rabies shot! It seems you hear and read more and more about equine rabies in the last few years. Hank is getting over his problems (I Hope). Here is an article about equine rabies in R.I.
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9518
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 7:51 am:
Hi Dr O. Hank is still lame...but a little better with the shoes. I knocked him back to 1 gram bute at night. The belly kicking thing is still happening tho. He is eating well, and I don't Think it is colic. They are in a dirt lot with a LITTLE bit of grass stubs in it. They are constantly picking at it. It is dry here now and they are basically eating dirt when they do this. Their noses are full of mud, from breathing it as they "graze". Would too much dirt in his guts cause this belly kicking? It may be behavioral, but he has never done this before when confined in the spring. He was doing it the morning after their rabies shot (further up in thread). and they hadn't been confined for more than a day or 2 before that? Any ideas?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 7:42 am:
As usual you were right Dr.O. Hank is dead lame today...very bad. He can hardly move, I shoudn't have put the shoes on.
I am going to call the farrier and see if I can get him here today to pull his shoes. He has alot of heat in his hooves and a terrible pulse.
Why did the shoes make him worse?? Still no grazing, no turnout.
I talked to the vet yesterday and after his shoes are pulled we will x-ray this week sometime. He is so uncomfortable I am afraid he is going to "crash" I gave him 2 grams bute this morning.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 12:05 pm:
Oh no... Diane, I'm so sorry!!!!! It's so hard making decisions between Dr. O's great advice and the vet who actually sees your horse... I know, I've been there... Are you doing the stall rest with deep bedding? Can you ice him?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 1:28 pm:
Thanks Aileen, with the 2 grams of bute and a cold hoof hosing, he looks "normal".
When I talked to the vet yesterday he said I have a double edged sword with Hank. He has that stifle issue and without movement he gets very stiff in the hind right....the one he is kicking his belly with???? Don't know if maybe that is related to the stifle issue. I hand walked him before the bute should have kicked in much....he always seems much better after he moves around some. He walked right up when I hand walked him. Yesterday the vet said to give him some high doses of bute and then taper off, he thinks he is better off moving some in a confined area. Their lean-to is deeply bedded and he has the choice of standing in there all day if he wishes. Vet said to give it until Weds. with the shoes.
He is always worse in the morning and the vet thinks it may be more his stifle than his feet causing the stiffness. His stifle has always been a problem when out of shape or confined. I am considering enlarging their "dry lot" to see if that would help him. When I hand walked him his feet seemed ok considering everything. I had to take 2 steps across the pavement with him and he didn't faulter at all or act lamer on the hard ground. When the vet flexed his right stifle 2 weeks ago he was probably a 4 out of 5 lame on it.
Which do I treat? with in my budget? keep him moving (vets suggestion) or lock up for feet? I am very confused now.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 3:25 pm:
My very inexperienced opinion would be to cold hose his feet as often as you can and keep him in a soft forgiving area. The stifle issue will still be there when you're done fixing the founder. Then you can address the stifle. Remember if he's on bute he can hurt himself without him or you knowing. Again, just my two cents, but it's what I would do... good luck, I know this hurts you as well!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 3:59 pm:
Thanks aileen I always appreciate opinions! The Dry lot is dirt....fairly soft. It is a very small area tho, probably about 30 long x 20 wide. There are 3 horses in there, so it is pretty small. They also can go in their lean to/paddock area which is about the same size. The paddock is harder than the dry lot it consists of lime which gets pretty hard.
Hank being the pansy he is won't move if it hurts. There is nothing but a few stubs of grass and dirt in the dry lot. If I make it bigger they will not run around in there. I will not make it big enough to get any steam up just a little more room to stretch their legs and not have to turn so tight.
I think it may be worth a try? He has been moving very well this afternoon, granted he was buted, I was also buteing him in the morning last week with little improvement. I have to wonder if there is an abscess in there...2 years ago when he had the abscess from hell he acted almost exactly the same until it popped out his cornary band....it took a month!!! The farrier checked for abscess tracks and didn't find any, but I don't think a solar abscess has a track? Off to the abscess articles to check. Thanks again
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 8:16 am:
Yes most solar abscesses have a black track that leads from the surface down but there are exceptions, this pathogenesis is explained in the article on abscesses. Did the vet examine the horse and what did he find, there are many reasons horses can go lame following being shod, we have an article on that too.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 9:29 am:
Dr.O. the vet has examined him 3 times in the last 3 weeks. He didn't see a track, nor did the farrier.
I have followed the vets directions, dry lot, shoes when better, and diet.
He was lame before the shoes, with the shoes he is a little better (usually) and not worse.
I just don't know what more I can do. He is losing weight and will continue to do so until he is slimmer.
I do like my vet, but he lacks experience...he is very willing to learn. Our rural location just doesn't have any experienced equine vets. That is why turn I here so often for help and advice I know you can't examine Hank, but any direction as to what to have examined?
My confusion with this horse is how he seems so much better after moving around, very willingly. I don't have to make him move he is raring to go on our hand walks. He will trot in hand without any limp and strides out nice. When I hand walk him it is on soft/semi hard ground. Founder and abscesses don't normally act like that. He does have some filling in his front fetlocks. His hooves in the morning are warm and the pulses high. He gets the same amount of bute evening and morning....12 hrs. apart.
In the mornings he looks bad until I get him out and moving. It almost suggests arthritis, but it sure looks like his feet....especially since there is heat and a very high pulse.... once moving they seem to dissipate. He also weight shifts alot in the mornings when standing around....this also dissipates after our hand walks.
I am more than willing to have the vet out again, this horse means the world to me. Could you give me some suggestions as to what to have him do? Or should I just continue on for now considering he is not getting worse and MAYBE a little better?
Otherwise the vet is just going to give him banamine and tell me to continue on any way.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 7:34 am:
I think I had a "light bulb" moment this morning. I THINK Hanks's back feet are bothering him....maybe worse than the fronts. It would all make some sort of sense then. I am going to have the vet out to check them and other things.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 7:40 am:
Localization is always the first step to any lameness diagnosis and we have a whole article on how to do that.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 6:31 am:
Thanks Dr.O. We have been trying to locate it, I think the hard part at this time is he isn't really "lame" He just doesn't move right behind. His fronts seem good now. In the morning after not moving much is when he is bad. My old mare and gelding who are riddled with arthritis are doing great! Which leads me to believe it is not arthritis. After Hank gets moving he looks GOOD.... and is improving daily.
Once he seems good in the morning I am going to remove the night bute and see what happens. He is still on 1 gram morning and night. Today I am going to not give him the morning bute and see if he still looks good after moving about.
Thanks
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 9:10 am:
Hank is certainly your "problem child," Diane. I'm glad he seems to be improving.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 8:58 pm:
Thanks Sara, he is a problem and also my "baby" Took away the morning bute and it didn't seem to affect him for the worse. In a few days the night bute is going. He still is not right behind, but I hope whatever it is it either goes away or gets bad enough to pin point it.....hopefully goes away.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:08 pm:
Dr.O. I had the vet out again for Hank, he just doesn't improve no matter what I do. He watched him move, did the standard lameness test and can come to no conclusion. It is very confusing, his muscles in his body are very hard. His feet are still sore, but don't seem to be the only problem.
He will stride right out, but looks out of whack....it really is hard to describe. Once trotting in hand he seems to work out of it. He looks better trotting than walking. The vet was ready to say founder still, until I showed him how well he actually moves once he gets going. Now he's wondering about espm after watching him and his tight muscles? I don't know what to think anymore. Still no turn out, no grass. IF it is laminitis What's the trigger? any Thoughts???? We also ran a standard blood test and everything was normal.
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:45 pm:
Hi Diane, I sure can feel for you. It is so frustrating, to seem to be gaining ground and then back to square one. Levi is lame again also, and I just wish I knew what for sure caused it. He ran around like a banshee on Saturday, so I assume that is it, but why can't he be a horse???? I guess he has not grown back a full foot yet, so hopefully that is all it is.
I hope you can get to the bottom of your problem as well. Give Hank a hug from Levi and me!
suz
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2007 - 11:50 pm:
Diane, how frustrating for you! Has he ever been tested for espm? Do you have a good clinic/university vet clinic/lameness specialist within a day's drive that you could go to? You've been struggling with this for so long it would be worth the drive to find out what's going on if there was anything within a reasonable distance imo.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 6:43 am:
The vet hospital is a 5hr. trip one way. I wish it were in our budget but it just isn't. The vet said that we should consider a muscle biopsy. Thanks for commiserating.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 7:18 am:
What tests specifically were run? Were the feet blocked to prove there are problems coming from elsewhere?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 7:34 am:
Dr.O. no blocks I asked before about blocks and I don't think the vet feels comfortable doing them....that's what I am up against. I believe his feet are involved, but something else is going on too.
If you don't mind I would like to pick your brain a little. IF he still has bilateral bruising going on would he be willing to trot? He still hoof tests sore at the toe, but it really doesn't act like founder. When the farrier trimmed him last time he did have some remnants of the red ring in his left front. He stood well for ponding of the nails and the shoeing. From my experience with founder that doesn't usually happen, BUT what about sole bruising would pounding bother that???
I put some padding on his feet that normally helps for founder, yet he seemed worse. IF it is sole bruising would the pressure from the pads make him worse????
IF he has sole bruising would that explain why he is willing to walk, trot canter...just doesn't look right????? He still has bounding pulses and heat once in awhile, but not often.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 10:54 pm:
Interesting enough, I left Hank out for a gallop at will today again....he looked crippled going out the gate and like a SOUND racehorse once he got going, this is all so strange.
He also seemed much better when I brought them back up to their pen, and for the first time he still looked pretty good at sundown when I looked out the window. Hopefully he won't be a cripple in the morning as he usually is.
Dr.O. the last 2 days I have let them out to run and play he seems to improve, and remain a little better. When I had him locked up in their pen he seemed to get worse and worse everyday. Could I "hurt" anything by continueing to do this? After their gallop and play I let them graze for about 15 mins.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:30 pm:
Diane, I may be "grasping at straws" here, but I just had a thought; is there any chance Hank could be arthritic, maybe in his lower or foot joints? Horses with arthritis, like people, stiffen up when sedentary, and get better as they move around.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 6:44 am:
Sara we considered arthritis, he flexed positive in his right stifle. He has had that stifle problem "forever". I don't know about foot arthritis?
The other 2 are well in their twenties.....with confirmed arthritis and have never moved better. They can move around, and if they wanted to could trot and canter some.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 7:24 am:
Whether exercise can hurt the horse Diane depends on the problem, each of the articles on each of the problems discussed above can give you specific information.
Concerning the diagnostic conditions you ask about, it all depends on the seriousness of the bruising. History will only get you so far with a diagnosis, it may direct your thoughts but they need to be confirmed by examination. Otherwise you are better treating it as a undiagnosed condition as you can find in the First Aid for Lameness.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 10:58 am:
I was thinking about arthritis further down near his foot or in his foot. Did you ever have his lower legs and feet xrayed? I don't recall. I'd think if it were arthritis it would show up on an xray. I just wish you could figure this out!
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:29 pm:
I'm so sorry Diane, I have to agree with Sara on the xrays if your vet doesn't want to block...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 7:24 pm:
Thanks we haven't x-rayed recently and it will probably be our next step. Had the farrier out to pull his shoes and I put him back in styrofoam to see if it will help. It didn't seem to make a difference one way or the other.
He's been so sore today it's pitiful. His soles look a little funky....his hinds and fronts. I got a new computer and if I can get everything connected I will take pics when I change the styrofoam. I would like your opinions, or too see if it is normal....I have never seen it before.
He has DEEP crevices in his soles, not those normal little cracks. The farrier just cleaned up his soles about a week ago, so they shouldn't be that bad. His trim job looks good I think....for him.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 11:21 am:
Good luck Diane!!
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 12:27 pm:
Hey Diane, I think you and I do need a day at the spa! It is so frustrating, to see the beautiful pastures,and have to keep our boys inside. I sometimes wonder if Levi would not be better off, and healthier if someone owned him that had just a stall and dry lot. I wonder when the grass is safe in the spring? How can we know?
Hang in there
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 1:50 pm:
My conclusion today is Hanks soles are still very bruised. I added the second layer of styrofoam and he couldn't walk. Took the styrofoam off, barefoot still very painful.
I cold hosed his feet and put Sam's old macs on him (which are too small of course)...but good enough for an experiment. He walked much better in the boots than with shoes, barefoot, or styrofoam.
Still not 100% but very much improved. I think the sore fronts must be aggravating the stifle issue as he weights his back end more.
Susan my vet said to limit grazing until July!!! That's o.k. tho he and the other 2 are DrOpping weight and they needed to. Hopefully by July they will be in a good bsc. The other 2 are almost there, but for some reason Hank does't DrOp it as fast. Does anyone know of any boots that can be left on 24/7? I will search the internet...it would be nice if you could ride in them also. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 3:05 pm:
Put a grazing muzzle on Hank and let him out....he moves NORMAL out in pasture, He is very frustrated with the muzzle, but at least he's moving. Now I have to get 2 more for the other hogs.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 8:51 pm:
I don't know about 24/7 boots, I was warned that leaving boots on too long could fester bacteria. But some put gold bond (???) powder in the boots to help keep the foot dry, it has also been suggested to use coloidal silver on the foot to stave off bacteria.
I think there may be some boots that have ventilation with open backs, but the name escapes me... renegade maybe? They're new.
Good luck!!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 9:34 pm:
I had a gelding with an abcess that my vet pared out and treated. When my vet had satisfied himself he had all the infection drained, and the tissue has started to cornify, he wanted to apply a shoe forged so that the hole could still be treated with iodine and packed. I didn't want to shoe this horse, so I continued to use a hoof bandage--much like Dr. O's--with cotton, gauze, vet wrap and duct tape. I had a pair of Old Macs that were too large for this horse, but fit fine over the bandage. I just wrapped both feet and put the boots on over all. He wore them 24/7 for two weeks. I changed the wrap about every three days--a smaller amount of bandage material each time. Of course his pasterns were wrapped with vet wrap to make sure no rubbing. He was in an area about 80 by 100 feet. It was an extremely wet winter--thus the abcess--but he had no issues with moisture buildup. The boots are not watertight and will drain. The iodine keeps the hoof pretty dry as well. I know the manufacturers don't recommend this, but it worked for me and saved me the cost of shoeing, plus I was in the process of taking this horse barefoot, so really didn't want to shoe. The hole was filled in enough after two weeks and all was well.
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New Member:
maryr
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 11:54 am:
Dr. O.
Me and my gelding and mare (who did not have as bad of a reaction, but noticeable one) are just getting through a severe reaction to WN vaccination ( at least that is what the vet thinks he reacted to). Needless to say, I am scared out of my mind and do not want to get Montana vaccinated again! I have a year to get over this and probably will to some extent. His entire upper body (not the legs) started to retain fluid, and his entire neck and head were so swollen I could not get a halter on his head and Monty could not move. An abscess formed (about a week later) and was lacerated, I have photos, but there is an error message saying they are to big (they are 47kb). My vet told me that I was very lucky Monty did not die. Should I report this to the manufacturer? Have any suggestions as to what I should do next spring? At this point, I do not want to vaccinate.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 8:05 am:
Abscessation is not likely to be due to the product Mary unless other horses vaccinated out of that 10 dose bottle had a similar problem and the infection found not to be due to other causes. If that is the case by all means contact the manufacturer.
Abscesses do sometimes occur with vaccination due to contamination of the injection site with a pathogen or possibly by secondary infection of an area of muscle necrosis. Hmmm...did your horses happen to get the intranasal Strangles vaccine on that day? If you would back up one page and start a new discussion and we can discuss your particular case.
DrO
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New Member:
maryr
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 9:54 am:
Two of my horses had similar initial reactions. It was out of the same dose. Monty continued to get worse and severe swelling occurred from his shoulder to his face. There were several "pockets" of swelling/fluid throughout his body. My mare had considerable swelling on her neck, probably 12 inches long, and was sick. My vet thinks it was the WN vaccination due to the locations of the reactions and her recollection of what was administered where. I managed to make the photos I have smaller, but after thinking about it they are hard to look at, so I thought it may not be a good idea to post them.
I do not get the Strangles vaccine.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:35 pm:
Mary, to date I have given thousands of Fort Dodge WNV vaccinations and have not had a single reaction that I would characterize as significant or as severe as you describe. That you had two does seem odd. Did the veterinarian have similar problems with the rest of that bottle of vaccine?
DrO
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Member:
maryr
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 1:31 pm:
She discarded the remainder of the vaccine. Another thing I want to point out, I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but another vet at the clinic explained to me that the WNV that was administered was included in a combo vaccination. I do not remember what combo it was, but it did cause the vets to question whether or not it was a contributing factor.
I have also vaccinated my horses against WNV since it was recommended and have never had any problems. I have had the same horses from foals (except one) and have had them up to 11 years. Its probably just an odd occurrence, but I hope I don't have to find out the hard way that there is an underlying problem.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 9:26 am:
If it was a combination vaccine what makes the vet think it was the WNV component Mary? THere would be no way to differentiate this from the other vaccines, non-vaccine components, or potential contaminants in the same injection.
DrO
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Member:
maryr
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Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 11:21 am:
I agree, and I think that nobody really understands what happened. I'm just concerned that it is going to happen again.. Thanks Dr. O
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 7:29 am:
Hi Dr.O. I know you can't decide for me whether Hank should have a rabies shot (wish you could), but would like your opinion on my idea.
My vet has said many times this year he doesn't think Hank should ever get a rabies shot again...he is convinced it played a role in his founder as am I.
However he WAS fat and it was spring, he was getting some sprigs of grass in his dry lot.
That said he is in good weight now, his feet seem ok at the moment and there is NO grass to be found anywhere 8 new inches of snow. All founder triggers are absent, so I thought maybe now would be a good time for his rabies shot.
It is not endemic in our county, but has been in counties near us, if I am going to give him one, I'm thinking now would be ideal to HOPEFULLY avoid
the founder reaction. I'd be grateful for Your opinion on this. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 10:32 am:
I would follow your veterinarians advice on this.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 11:31 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I talked in length with my vet today about this and he said if I was going to give him the rabies shot now would probably be the best time.
He also said as a vet he thinks all animals should be vaccinated for rabies, BUT he would make the exception with Hank, especially since he has had a bad reaction since his 1st shot as a yearling (bad hives) and has been getting worse. He said rabies is not edemic here and he would take the one in a million risk, rather than chance the bad reaction Hank WILL have. He also said we could run titers...are they a satisfactory way to check immunity? Thanks
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Member:
gailkin
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2007 - 5:40 pm:
Hi Diane,
When was the last time that Hank had a rabies shot? My holistic vet only gives them when questioned every three years and UC Davis said every other year was certainly safe. My horses both ran fevers of 104 last year after their shots (3-way, WN and rabies) given by a different vet. If I do get any shots this year, I will space them out. My holistic vet will come back for additional shots for no call fee because she thinks it is that important for the horse. Unfortunately, she is battling ovarian cancer and is not up to working regularly. If you have a very low risk of rabies, I would probably skip a shot particularly if he had one less than 3 years ago. Some people are allergic to the preservative in vaccines. What does your vet think? It is always difficult when we weigh decisions affecting our horses, but we all try to do what is best for them and I am sure you will make the right decision for Hank. Best wishes, Gail
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2007 - 6:28 pm:
Hi Gail, Hank had a rabies shot last spring...and foundered the next day. Vet says not to chance it, he is finally doing well and anymore rotation would be the end of his sound days I'm afraid. So Hank is not ever going to get a rabies shot again...UNLESS it becomes endemic around here...Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 31, 2007 - 5:33 am:
Concerning UC Davis, they recommend yearly vaccination for rabies. It is unknown if vaccination every 2 or 3 years is as effective as yearly. In general it is believed that the rabies vaccine is not as effective in the horse as dog or cat because of the incidence of reported disease breakthroughs in yearly vaccinated horses but firm knowledge of this is unknown.
Serum titers in humans are often used as a measure of protection but this is not known if this is effective in horses.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 7:55 am:
Dr.O Titers are not a good way to detect protection?
I am really torn with the rabies shot. Just this week I found a racoon laying 3 feet from the horse pasture in the middle of the afternoon, it was alive and not injured. It didn't move when I saw it, just looked strangely at me. I called my brother-in law to come shoot it. I wish I would have had it tested, but I didn't think of it until it was safely discarded.
Then I have been seeing a skunk about a mile down the road walking circles by the side of the road in the middle of the day for the last couple of days....yesterday it wasn't there.
I don't feel good about not giving the rabies shot, and it scares me to death to do it
The one year Hank didn't have a reaction the vet had used the Merial vaccine. Last year I told the vet to order that for me, but he didn't.
Considering these circumstances I think for my peace of mind I am going to try to get the Merial brand and HOPE Hank doesn't have a terrible reaction...that is if titers don't give me a true idea of his immunity???...Thanks
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Member:
christel
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 8:37 am:
Wow Diane, what a rock and hard place you are between. Hope the Merial one works for you.
Did anyone hear about the program to bait rabies vaccine in food for coyotes etc. A friend told me about it, but I have not heard a thing on it- sounds kinda interesting and a little scary too. Am curious where 'they' were going to do it.
The coyotes here in the panhandle of Texas are suffering- they are literally dying from mange- rabbits are taking over- not sure which is worse the rabbits or the coyotes, at least the coyotes dont get in the flowerbeds and gardens and eat em all up or chew on new trees.
Good luck Diane, glad its not me having to decide.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 8:55 am:
Hi Chris I did see that about the coyotes.
Trying to think logically, we have 40 head of cattle on 200 acres of "wild" pasture. They are not vaccinated for rabies and we have never had a problem...nor have other people with cattle in the pastures....of course that we know of.
If Hank were to founder again, I'm afraid that would be the end of him, and that would make me sick for years! I wish Titers were a little more reliable. VERY undecided
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 10:04 am:
Diane, I would not want to be in your shoes on this, but.. i think you have answered your own question above..
""Trying to think logically, we have 40 head of cattle on 200 acres of "wild" pasture. They are not vaccinated for rabies and we have never had a problem...nor have other people with cattle in the pastures....of course that we know of.
If Hank were to founder again, I'm afraid that would be the end of him, and that would make me sick for years! I wish Titers were a little more reliable. VERY undecided """"
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 7:43 pm:
You are right Ann. I think the chances of him foundering again is much higher than the odds of him getting Rabies.
It is a scary disease tho, and with these recent wildlife sightings it puts me a bit on edge. It seems Rabies is getting more and more prevelant. I did a little research and Illinois had it's highest rate of Rabies in 2007. I also saw that only 100 some horses out of like 7.5 million contracted Rabies...so I guess the odds are with me, but even the vet agreed that if it can happen it will to Hank (poor guy).
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Member:
annaspop
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 9:49 pm:
Diane, I vote for you to wait until your knee is healed and strong, before you even think of wondering if you should give the vaccine. Personally,(with my luck) I know that if I had your knee injury, not only would my horse have a very bad reaction, but he would be the one in 5 zillion to then get bit by a rabid squirrel and get rabies. If I waited until I was better .... nothing would go wrong.
Margy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 - 10:54 pm:
Margy you must have luck like me.
The knee has come into my mind it is still not right and painful at times. Doctoring horse hooves is not something I could do at this time.
I guess the best bet at this time is to cross my fingers and hope no rabid animals are around. Hank will be chasing them thru the pasture if there are. I do wonder at times why I have these animals, until I go outside...they can always make me laugh and smile daily. Hank is quite a character.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 3, 2008 - 8:07 am:
Dr.O. There is a Fort Dodge EWT/ westnile combo vaccine. Normally I give the intervet EWT and the Fort Dodge WNV seperately. Considering my horses reactions am I better off giving each seperately?
Would save $$ giving the combo....if I had no reactions. They seem to be more reactive to the Fort dodge carrier. If I gave the combo Vac. would they still be getting the same amount of carrier as in the single WNV shot? They have never reacted to the intervet EWT. The old mare seemed to have quite a reaction to the WNV 2 yrs. ago but not last year when given banamine as a pre-treatment. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 7:02 am:
Diane I am uncertain if there is more adjuvant in the combination shot...until you try it everything is just conjecture.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 7, 2008 - 6:29 am:
Thanks Dr.O One more question if I may. Supposedly the EWT Vac. is good for a year. The horses were vaccinated for this the end of March last year. I would like to give them the EWT now, and the WNV around the middle of April. Is it too early to give EWT considering EW is a mosquito born problem?...Though not prevelant in this area.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 7, 2008 - 2:46 pm:
Well interesting enough I talked to my vet and he said my plan was fine. I again brought up the rabies question for Hank. He said he just read the aaep was suggesting that rabies shots be the core for vaccination. Told him I agree, he said he still wouldn't suggest vaccinating Hank for it.
He also made a comment (that really surprised me). He said they have completely switched from Fort Dodge Rabies Vac. That the reaction rate was VERY high last year in horses as well as small animals in their practice...which is decent sized for a town this size. They are die hard FD fans and it is the only brand they carry for the most part. He said they switched to the Merial brand rabies shot. He also said and I don't know where he got this I assumed the aaep something or another...that they are starting to suspect over vaccination in horses is starting to lead to problems down the line. Don't get me wrong he is all for vaccinations, but I found his comments rather interesting.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 7:05 am:
We use the FD rabies and have not noticed a high reaction rate. Believing that many horses need no more than our recommended annual series at the beginning of the warm weather, I too believe many horses are over vaccinated.
I have not seen evidence of it inducing acute or chronic disease of any type. My main concern is the ill effects on your pocketbook. I would be interested in any information your veterinarian has on this subject.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 10, 2008 - 7:38 am:
Dr.O. My vet thought I was a little off my rocker when I told him of my horses vac. reactions when I started using him. I can handle the normal sore neck thing, but he has seen what the rabies shot did to Hank and WNV does to Flash. I had 2 other horses that foundered after their spring shots before. The time line definitley indicated the shots. That being said I have always had fat horses and I wonder if that exuberates the reaction in some. There are a lot of overweight small animals these days also. I have to wonder if being overweight could affect them also?
Flash is in very good weight this spring, so I will be curious to see if she has a bad reaction this year to the WNV vaccine. (I hope not)
I will ask my vet where he got his info. I do recall him saying something about more neurological type diseases showing up in horses that are over vaccinated. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 6:55 am:
Temporal relationships are not the same as causal relationships DianeE. The rooster crows then the sun rises millions and millions of times everyday. However in over 20 years and maybe one hundred thousand vaccinations I have not had a founder I could attribute to a vaccine. I suspect a untreated severe or prolonged anaphylactic reaction may have founder as a sequelae but I have not had that happen either.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 7:29 am:
Dr.O. I do understand the "temporal" relationship coming into play. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has at the very least a Laminatic attack following a vaccination. Although each horse that foundered or got "footy" was predisposed to founder to begin with. I have no research to prove this although I have read many many people having the same thing happen. I am VERY sure it is not a sore neck these are vet confirmed founders. Regardless the best defense for me I feel is to keep vaccinations to only the essential one, keep my horses fit, and cross my fingers. I really would like to vaccinate Hank for rabies, but after last years fiasco, I can't bring myself to do it. When the vet confirms that he doesn't think it is a good idea he must believe there was some sort of relationship. I do strongly believe his obese status attributed to it, but if you could have seen the way he walked the day after his rabies vaccine it would make you wonder too I think.
He did not founder the year before when he did NOT receive the rabies vaccine and he was fat.. He DID founder the year before that when he received it. I don't know if it is coincidence but it is enough to make me wonder. Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2008 - 9:50 pm:
It is not a reaction I have ever seen reported in any of the safety studies which employs hundreds of horses either. If you mean there are horses that get vaccinated and get founder you are right, it is the causal nature that is uncertain. In all cases however we recommend you follow your veterinarians advice.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:45 am:
Diane -- I too believe a mare that I had came down with laminitis (and was diagnosed as such by a Vet) following injections of one kind or another on 3 separate occasions. And each time this took place when the horse had gained a bit of extra weight and was not being ridden much. After the third time we took the precaution of a banamine shot about an hour before vaccinations.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:08 am:
Dr.O. I am not trying to be argumentative, and I DO believe horses should be vaccinated. 1989 I had a beautiful foal born a buckskin overo with a personality to die for (Frito). At that time my vet recommended every shot in the book pretty much AND they were administered all together. She received her shots when she was around 8mos. old. and every year there after in the spring along with my other 12 horses I had at the time. She would get the sore neck and drag around for a few days like most horses do.
When she was 8 the horses were kept in a lot that was grassless, she was given her spring vaccinations, the next day I had the vet out as she was acting very weird....my first introduction to founder. The day I was taught how to check a digital pulse. The vet and I tried to doctor her thru this founder, but she was put down that July. She was not fat and very fit she was rode daily up until then. I have owned many horses before that and since then they have never had that reaction until Hank and the rabies shot. It is JMHO that a very small part of the horse population does have this reaction. When they started suggesting spreading out shots and to not over vaccinate there has to be a reason which I suppose is reactions. Is it a far reach to believe that founder or laminitis could be one of those reactions when the immune system goes into over drive? I am just trying to understand if I am way off base here and maybe my fears aren't justified.
Your scientific, logical mind keeps me grounded often....Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 4:16 pm:
So wondering if I am a little off my rocker I tried to find some research about a connection between founder and vaccinations. Surprisingly there are quite a few. Insulin resistance, fat horses and cushings seems to predispose them to the reaction. Also already having had a case of laminitis. Here is one study from Texas A&M amongst many. This really makes me want to make sure Hanks and the other horses weight is normal.
Evidence of a link to immunologic hyperactivity in chronic laminitis
Researchers from Texas A&M University have conducted a well-designed study that implicates a link between routine vaccination and acute episodes of horses with chronic laminitis. Their results were quite convincing, presenting clear evidence that there is a relationship between vaccines and acute episodes brought about through changes in the immune system produced by the chronic laminitis, which then leads to a heightened sensitivity to vaccines.
The Texas A&M researchers injected chronically laminitic and healthy horses with a variety of antigens and reported immunologic ‘reactions’ at defined intervals of time. The results clearly showed that chronically laminitic horses have a much stronger peak reaction than healthy horses, characterized by an infiltration of immature neutrophils along with local inflammation, fluid buildup and vascular damage.7 The information presented in the present article gives an explanation for their results
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 5:39 pm:
One of the horses that I have now had both of his rear legs blow up after getting West Nile, rabies, WEE/VEE/Tet/flu all on the same day. Hosing them with cold water made no difference -- had to give him Bute for a few days and fortunately the swelling subsided. He also gets sore if I do the West Nile and 4-way on the same day -- not laminitic as the mare did years ago for me, but stiff and "puny." Since the episode with the hind legs swelling up, I always split my shots into two farm calls. It was bad -- looked like lymphangitis.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 6:07 pm:
Vicki I split my shots, even tho they don't get many. I don't take my horses anywhere and usually ride by myself. I would like to give the rabies shot, but with Hanks history I don't think I'll risk it. The study above is more about chronic laminitis and it's relationship with vaccination. I don't know if Hank is what is considered chronic or not, but it doesn't take much to set off an episode of laminitis with him.
Some of the other articles I found also found a laminatic relationship with IR, fat, and cushings horses after vaccinations. Hanks diet is obviously good for many things
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 7:31 pm:
DianeE I have had others bring up such studies in the past and I cannot find them doing a search in PubMed which publishes a summary of all articles published in every refereed veterinary journal in the world. Do you know where I could read these reports?
Insulin resistance is one of the most common disease conditions I manage in horses and I just don't see this. I do make it a habit to not vaccinate horses while foundering but this is mainly consideration for they already feel bad.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 12, 2008 - 8:18 pm:
I don't know what you mean for sure but at the bottom of this article it says this Wagner, I.P.; Rees, C.A.; Dunstan, R.W.; et al. American Journal of Veterinary Research 64 (3), 279-283, 2003.
The article https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=4921
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 13, 2008 - 9:28 am:
I have the issue of the AJVR you site as the basis of the article in my library and it does not find that vaccinations of horses with laminitis may precipitate or exacerbate the laminitis. They do say in the introduction they have heard of anecdotal evidence of this but when you track it down their reference is a review VetClinics article which consists of more reviews of anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence I cannot find I might add.
This research project looks at the reaction to intra-dermally injected antigens at the site of an intradermal injection. And then compares that reaction between horses with no history of laminitis and those that have chronic laminitis.
If finds an increase allergic-type reaction at the injection site of horses that have chronic laminitis. Though the objective of the study was not to see if these injections exacerbate laminitis they do comment:
quote:...we were unable to correlate severity or duration of laminitic episodes with the intensity of responses to allergens administered during IDT
In spite of the lack of correlation between reaction and degree of laminitis and the differences in their experimental design and a vaccination protocol they do go on to conjecture in the discussion:
quote:Even though the risk of percipitating an episode of laminitis is apparently small, the possibility that antigenic challenge mey result in exacerbation of clinical signs of laminitis should be discussed with horse owners prior to adminitration of atigenic substances.
They use the wording "apparently small" because they cannot demonstrate it from their experiment nor site any well documented cases. I would also note that they did not use vaccines in this study nor did they use a vaccine protocol, they used intradermal injections where the immune reaction would be most severe. I personally think substituting "conjecture" for "apparently small" would more accurately describe the statement.
I remember when this article came out we put it in our scientific summaries that has now been replaced with the button. These findings are interesting but I do not know what to make of them from a clinical point of view. Of the three or four chronic laminitis (mostly Metabolic SynDrOme or Cushings) ponies that come readily to mind, none of them are horses that get noticeably sore with their vaccinations and I have been vaccinating some of these guys for 20 years now.
I do not mean this to mean vaccines are not harmful. A reading of the Overview of Vaccines and Injection Reaction articles is quite clear about this. And it does seem to be any severe illness of a horse can induce founder through a wide range of mechanisms. If you and your veterinarian have concluded this has happened with your horses you should act accordingly. I just don't know of any clear evidence of this.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 7:26 am:
Dr.O. When the vet was here for the horses wellness exam and vaccinations, we once again discussed the rabies shot for Hank. For some reason I don't feel good about not giving it.
He said they had 5 horses which includes Hank have BAD reactions to the Fort Dodge rabies vac. The other horses reactions were similar to Hanks....acting neurological and then founder. He said the incidence was high enough to make them switch away from the FD brand and now they only use Merial or Intervet. Honestly my vet isn't easily swayed by coincidence so I believe he thinks it was the rabies shot was the cause of these horses problems. He said the others were not fat like Hank nor kept on spring grass. He said they also had problems last year with small animals, but I didn't ask for the details.
Ok here is my question he said he had a chat with the FD rep and asked them why horses need 2cc of rabies shot compared to small animals getting 1cc.
Of course the reps response was because horses are bigger. I do remember years ago that horses only got 1cc do you know why that changed?
Anyway my vet theorizes that 1cc should be enough to make an immune response especially if the horses have been getting 2cc's before. I don't know what to think of that but he said he thinks the drug companies just want to sell more. HMMM I couldn't believe he said that. He said he would prefer to give my "reactive" horses 1cc in the theory of less is better and he believes it would provide immunity. What do you think of that? I have always wondered why they upped the dose when for years 1cc seemed to suffice....Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 8:08 am:
Sorry one more question. Does the size of the animal have anything to do with the immune systems response? OR is it more because of different animals immune system which decides the dose? This has me very curious. Do children get the same amount as adults in humans?.....Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 9:22 am:
Diane,
I know I said this somewheres before, in fact posted about it last year. My 4 horses all had bad reactions to the FD Rabies and I won't use that one again.
Your last question, had me come up with another question:
Why do humans get vaccinated once, or maybe a set of 3, then not again; yet the immunity is good for 10-20 years, if not more. Yet we are supposed to give all our pets yearly boosters. I would think if our horses were vaccinated for rabies, or WN, even once, it would make a difference if they were exposed to it. I can understand the thing with flu shots as the virus changes every year. This is discussed a lot dog web forums that we don't need to vaccinate so much.
And; dog rabies is good for 3 years..why aren't horses good for 3 years?
DrO;
Will you comment please?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 2:27 pm:
From the research I have done the reason they give horses a yearly rabies vacc is because none of the companies have done the research to see exactly how long it lasts (to expensive) and a yearly dose is more money in their pockets.
Also from what I've read every animals...including humans immune system reacts differently to varying stimulus. I can buy that, but I have to wonder what determines the dosage? size of the animal or immune response. I suppose if it's immune response different species would require different dosages to kick start the immune response???? Then again if our horses react to a certain shot is it the adjuvant (sp) or the killed virus? i would have to lean towards the carrier as sometimes switching brands alleviates the problem? What is in those carriers anyway????
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 10, 2008 - 8:39 pm:
Well it would appear Dr.O. updated the vaccination section...nice. It answered all my questions above.
It would appear from this article that trying a lower dose of the vaccine may help in severe reactions. Am I reading that correctly Dr.O.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 11, 2008 - 9:07 am:
Hello All,
Angie, for humans the rabies vaccine booster is based on serological testing. In high risk individuals such testing is recommended every six months (CDC recommendatinons). This tells me some individuals may require boosters every 6 months. Having for horses react strongly to just being given the rabies vaccine suggest to me a problem with that bottle or lot of vaccine. As stated earlier with having given tens of thousands of doses, I have not had such a experience.
Diane, concerning the amount and frequency of the rabies vaccine, it is not simply that they want more money but it is also based of the observation (from a review of rabies in horses in Michigan) that there are occasional vaccine breakthroughs even with the yearly dose of 2 cc administered by a veterinarian. The efficacy of the vaccine is only thought by some to be around 80% in horses when used as directed. Compare this with dog and cat vaccination where protection is thought to be near 100% with 3 year boosters.
The recommendation for trying a smaller dose has been there a long while years as far as I can remember. But remember the caveat that the efficacy of such a practice is unknown and is made for when the chance of complications of vaccination is high but the risk of not vaccinating high also.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 - 6:40 am:
Thanks Dr.O. Is the review of the Mi. horses the reason they raised the dosage to 2cc's? Or is my memory wrong, seems they upped the dose to 2cc's maybe around 10 yrs. ago. I suppose if 1cc use to be fairly sufficient it may be worth trying this with Hank. My vet said he would think since he has been getting 2cc's when vaccinated before he believes the 1cc would be enough for the immune system to "remember" Then again if I'm going to do it I want to make sure he has protection. I do strongly believe switching brands is the key not the dosage. Their intervet ewt shots went well, they didn't even get a sore neck or a bump where given the shot. Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 7:56 am:
Well Dr.O. being a woman it is hard for me to admit this, but I think I may have been wrong . My vet and his wife just had their 1st baby and he is rather sleep deprived. I asked him to order me the intervet WNV, but he forgot. Hank had his appt. for x-rays and I didn't want to pay 2 calls out so said fine we will give the FD brand as long as you are on call. I've been working long hours and forgot to pre-treat with bute. They were given the FD WNV shot Thurs. morning....I've been waiting for the neck blow-up, hoof pulses, and the mare to act like she's dieing....didn't happen. Would never had known they got the vaccination as of this morning anyway. Vet says it's because they are not fat anymore? I'm getting more confident about the rabies shot now and will give it when the stars seem alighned right and the horses are on a healthy streak. Thanks
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 5:58 pm:
Hi Diane,
Your vet says they no longer react to the vaccines because they aren't fat anymore? Really? Isn't it more likely that what you saw last time was a bug running through the herd, coincident with vaccination? Or they all got into something in the pasture? I'm a fan of trim horses, but I guess I just don't get the connection here....
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 6:13 pm:
Elizabeth I think the fat connection comes from making them more prone to founder and metabolic upsets. Realize my horses were not just fat, they were grossly overweight. I could see how that could cause many different reactions. He also repeated when he was here that he thinks Sam will shed out this yr.(hasn't for 6 yrs.) because he is in good weight....Now that I don't understand, we'll see whenever it warms up. I will say he has already shed more than normal. He said because of the andipose(sp) actually causes hormonally flare ups...or something like that.
I am positive there was no bug around the farm. It has happened year after year just like clockwork at vaccination time.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 6:39 pm:
Elizabeth if you can make heads or tails of this maybe you can explain it to me, but my vet said my horses when in their very obese stage had too much of this adipose tissue here is a pub med thing, I got curious
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12508947
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 26, 2008 - 6:45 pm:
Whatever the reason, Diane, I'm very glad for you and your horses that nobody reacted to the vaccinations. I am sure you are sighing with a great deal of relief!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 7:25 am:
Thanks Fran, you are right what a relief! This is the first yr. They haven't even had a mild reaction.
Swelling at injection site and stiff necks are normally a guarantee, especially since I didn't pre treat with bute. very very odd tho.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Apr 28, 2008 - 10:42 pm:
Diane -- don't have time to read the link right now, but the mare that I had would react with laminitis after an injection (happened three times) only after a substantial period of time off of working. She was never really over weight but looked good when this happened. For her, being worked regularly and also on the thin side (some rib visible) seemed protective against the laminitis.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 7:20 am:
Dr.O. my vet comes up with some weird comments, what do you think of his adipose tissue theory? After reading the pub med thing, the little I understood of it anyway, it seems possible anyway. Just has me a little curious....Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 29, 2008 - 6:29 pm:
Well its a theory Diane but don't know of any direct support for the idea that fat horses have more problems with vaccines.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 24, 2009 - 7:15 pm:
Well I thought I would update this, Hank hasn't got a Rabies shot since his founder. The vet and I decided to try Equirab from intervet. He ordered it to day. It is suppose to last a little longer and have less reactions. You only give 1ml compared to 2 in the other brands. We decided the stars are aligned right and no founder triggers. The sore neck reaction is suppose to be less, due to injecting less according to the rep the vet talked to. So anyway it is suppose to be here the first week in March and we are doing it...keep fingers crossed! For those of you with reactive horses here's the info. I'll let you know how my guys do
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12253
https://www.equirab.com/
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 7:06 am:
Thanks for the info Diane. I skipped the rabies shots last year due to extreme reactions. I couldn't stomach all my horses being swelled up and 2 of them barely moving. Didn't seem to matter where I gave the shots either. After years of trying, and different brands, that was enough.
Please let us know how your horses do. I don't vaccinate until the first weekend in May up here. With the sucky economy and our budget being tested in all areas, I am really thinking what I want to vaccinate for, and something they react so strongly to wasn't on the top of my list.
If your horses do well, I'll reconsider the rabies.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 8:17 am:
I will let you know Angie, I am giving the rabies shot early. They don't normally get their other shots for bug borne illnesses until April.... Just want to keep them spread out. Rabies is one disease I don't want to encounter and not having the horses protected makes me nervous. Especially with the wildlife here. We can't give our own Rabies shot in Il. Can't even order the vacc
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 8:51 am:
It should be noted the above link is a company press release but I have no reason to not believe their claims. I used these products before the company was bought by Intervet for many years before switching to Fort Dodge and did not notice a change in reaction rate but when a horse has problems with a particular brand I do switch to see if things go better. I see they list this as a new product but the adjuvant Halvogen has been used for many years.
Let us know how it goes Diane, if you have a good experience we will add the Intervet information to the article.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 9:20 am:
I see on the link it says available from your vet. I know MI is one of the few states that allows us to order rabies and give the shots. If I have to go through a vet, I probably won't try it. Only due to a tighter than tight budget this year!
Hmmm..I think I have a bottle of the vaccine in the frig from last year and decided not to give it. Sigh...wasteful spending there.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 3:35 pm:
Dr.O. according to my vet and the rep he talked to. The difference is 1ml compared to 2 ml with other brands. My vet said (and he is a little off the wall) that for the horses he has in his practice that react to the 2ml he cuts it down to 1 ml and that has gone well...he did suggest that for Hank last year also, but since 1ml (in other brands) isn't proven to give protection to horses I passed. Since Hanks reaction seems to be more than a "normal reaction" I figured it wasn't worth it. Vet said he is going to use the Equirab on those reactive horses too and see how it goes.
According to the company rep, which I am sure he is little biased...he said since the Equirab is only 1ml the reaction rate is lower (as far as stiff necks ect.), which makes sense I guess. I will let you know how it goes.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 3:42 pm:
Angie Mi. isn't listed as a state that they can't sell rabies to. Here is a list of the states
Not for sale in the states of AK, AL, AR, CA, CT, GA, HI, ID, IL, IN, KS, MD, ME, MN, MO, MS, MT, NC, NE, ND, NV, NJ, NM, NY, OR, RI, SC, TN, TX, UT, WA, WV and WY
Here is a website that carries it if you are interested...If Hank is good
https://www.heartlandvetsupply.com/cart/product_info.php?products_id=2816
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 25, 2009 - 5:38 pm:
Hope it goes well for Hank, Diane.
You are wise to split the vaccinations.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 3:05 pm:
The guenia pigs got their Rabies shot this morning..the vet gave Hank a lameness exam, no pulses, no lameness to make sure something wasn't brewing that I could blame the shot for .
Somehow he talked me into not even buting the (boys)
The mare got banamine since she has enough going on.
He wanted to see if they had any reaction without bute. They are being used as experiments, because he has quite a few who react to the Fort Dodge in his practice. I made sure he was on call this weekend AND he would ans. the phone if I called if Hank started dying again.
I am to check for swelling and neck soreness the next couple days. Check Hanks DP twice a day (which I already do ) If it starts Ka booming to start bute immediately. Keep good wishes for this...I was shaking at the thoughts of the shot and the vet Laughed at me
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 4:47 pm:
I don't blame you at all for being nervous about this, Diane, and hope that all will go well for Hank.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 5:41 pm:
OH and I forgot the best thing of the day...Vet said Hank wasn't fat (for this time of year)
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 6:06 pm:
Good for you Diane, as we all know the hard part is keeping the weight off!
Best of luck and sending non-reactive thoughts your way, you are such a good horse mummy
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2009 - 8:07 pm:
Great news! You are a better horse Mom than I am.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 7:50 am:
Don't get me wrong he's plenty fat...
Here's my Equirab Diary, because I'm a nervous wreck! It helps to write about it.
Almost 24hrs. post shot (geldings not pre-treated)
I can't even find where the vet injected them so no local reaction YET. Heads and necks are moving normally.
No DP for Hank...all are acting normally! It's early yet tho I think.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 10:40 am:
Best of luck - keeping hooves crossed for you all.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 7:00 pm:
Other than my imagination working overtime and my OCD in overdrive, I think things are fine tonight.
Hank had sub clinical dp's this afternoon, the kind I ignore and practically takes a pro to find! Tonight...nothing, they are the kind Dr.O. means by keeping them in their place I think. Honestly they didn't concern me.
I do think I am imagining him being a little off acting. Other than that I still can't find where he injected any of the 3, so far no sore necks, appetites wonderful, vitals normal....Now if I can keep my OCD under control!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2009 - 10:36 pm:
Excellent, Diane. Hope that this will continue to be the case.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 7:50 am:
Day2 almost 48 hrs. Quite remarkably, still can't find where the injections were given on any of them, no sore necks, absolutely no DP on Hank...not even the ground got hard overnight DP
One more day and I will be able to sleep! I think.
Dr.O. how many days does it take to see a reaction, seems to me I had one blow up on day 3 yrs. ago...from the rabies Vac. (think it was Hank) Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 3:07 pm:
Excellent news, Diane . . . hope that your good luck continues.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 1, 2009 - 6:40 pm:
I looked at my records and it was Hank who had a reaction on day 3...it was his 1st rabies shot he ever got. Huge swelling, stiffness, and hives along his neck. His recent reactions have been within 24 hrs., same with the other 2 (they only got lumps and stiff necks) even when buted.
So tomorrow afternoon I can breathe easy if nothing appears...I think.
Tonight you still would never know any of them had a vaccination, completely reaction free, not even a small bump. Sub clinical DP in Hank a little more pronounced in left front, but the ground is VERY hard and rutted. They were still very hard to find...so OK.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 7:48 am:
Well if after 72 hrs. I can consider myself "safe" Everything went wonderfully. I had absolutely no reactions in any of the 3. The only thing I noticed different about Hank was he was licking his lips ALOT and still is. Whether that has anything to do with the vaccination is questionable anyway.
They were given their vaccination around 9AM Fri. so MY conclusion is it worked WONDERFUL for MY horses! Unless something goes wrong in the next few days my experiment is over and I can sleep!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 10:31 am:
Great news, Diane. My horses had their first Rabies shots last fall (don't know which kind) and had no reaction at all.
But, I know how concerned you were with the history of your guys.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 12:31 pm:
Great news, Diane.
The boys and I are happy for you and yours!
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Monday, Mar 2, 2009 - 3:07 pm:
Thanks for the blow by blow on Hank - My Comet has huge reactions to the 4 WAY from F Dodge. so I am looking also for an alternative on that.
Our Vet doesn't recommend Rabies for where we are located so they get a buy on that one.
I'll have to see if I can get the EWRhino what have you from the feed store or from the source you noted. I am off to look that up now! Good Deal!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 11, 2009 - 6:40 pm:
Dr.O. the horses had their EWT vac (intervet) yesterday early morning. I am convinced giving them intervet brand has made a big difference for my horses. The EWT seems to be going just fine...not even a bump or sore neck NOTHING I didn't even have to pre-treat with bute as usual..Mare got banamine because of her "problems" reactive geldings got nothing.
I have one more vacc. to go WNV. I have been searching high and low for prevenile(intervet) SINGLE dose and they don't seem to exist.
Do you or any of the members know if it comes in a single dose syringe the smallest I can find is a 5 dose bottle.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 9:02 am:
No I am not sure about the availability of single dose Prevenile, I don't have any of their catalogs around. Surely the Intervet site would have this information.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Apr 13, 2009 - 4:37 pm:
I couldn't find any info about it at the intervet site. Actually the vet called this morning to see if I had any reactions. I asked him if he would order some and use the rest in his practice. He said he would...IF he remembers.
He's rather impressed so far with the horses NO reaction status too.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 7:12 am:
So the horses had their EWT/WNV vaccinations Fri. morning. I went cheapo and decided to do the FD. brand. My vet said since the horses weren't fat they wouldn't react LOL. It costs me an extra lot of money to have intervet brand shipped.
We did the check Hanks pulses and hooves thing. No digital pulses were present and he was sound. I locked them in the paddock so grass could not be a factor if anything happened. Flash is the one who usually react and acts lethargic and "sick" from the WNV and the boys necks will blow up and get stiff 80% of the time.
I gave a gram of bute at the time of the shot and that was it. NO reactions Hanks pulses did go into overdrive Sat. night KA BOOM. but he remained sound and they were gone last night. Flash was a little quieter Sat.
The vet does carry the Equirab now since he has had quite a few reactions to the FD rabies other than Hank. For the rabies Vac they will get intervet.
Dr.O. would the adjuvant (sp) be the same in all of FD vaccinations?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 11, 2010 - 10:06 am:
Though I do not know for sure, I believe the adjuvants would be the same for all FD killed vaccines.
DrO
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