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  Discussion on 21 year old mare off her feed - vague symptoms
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Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 6:35 pm:

Hi, DrO and all,

My mare, Moonlight, had been off her feed for a couple of days or so.

Earlier this year (January) when we were totally snowed in, she also went off her feed and started stocking up in her hind legs. I talked to my vet and we decided to watch and wait because she was essentially stall-bound because of the snow. She got better after a few days.

This time she was not stall bound - in fact I had had her out for a couple of rides.

She went off her feed - started lying down more often. I decided to take her temperature, but she was so reluctant to get up that I called the vet instead.

The vet came out and examination showed nothing abnormal. Temp was 96.8 degrees, pulse was 30 - not dehydrated, manure looked normal, although less output than normal. She did nibble some grass in the pasture.
I decided to let him go ahead and pull blood for a
CBC and Chem panel - if nothing else, it would give me a baseline to have on file.

After the Vet left she started to look uncomfortable, curling her upper lip (her usual pain response) and lying down again. Wanda, my neighbor (also a HA member) came down and we did a few more things at her suggestion: checked manure for sand (none), longed her at a trot until she passed a little gas, and massaged her abdomen. She seemed more comfortable after that.

We were wondering: Could it have been the first heat of the season that made her so uncomfortable?
This is my real question. This had never happened before.

On the positive side: she was drinking, and later she went in and started nibbling her hay. I had left a small flake in her manger and removed everything else.

Thanks for any insight, experiences.

Lilo
Member:
freshman

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 10:13 pm:

It sounds like she's colicing, not that this narrows down what is actually causing her pain. Did the vet give her pain meds, pass an NG tube, perform a rectal exam? Seems like this would be indicated. Also, a body temperature of 96.8 seems fairly low to me. Did your vet comment on this reading?

Hopefully she's just mildly impacted or having a spasmodic gas colic. Repeated colic episodes like this would make me suspect a lipoma lurking somewhere in her gut. These things can shift around, causing episodes of colic that resolve when the lipoma moves again. She is certainly of the age where this becomes a real possibility.

Hope your mare is back to normal by morning!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 11:01 pm:

Hi Kristin,

Thanks for your response. The vet (not my regular vet) did mention lipomas as a possibility. She did not exhibit any colic symptoms while he examined her.

He said if I had not mentioned that she was not eating well, he would have pronounced her perfectly healthy based on her vital signs.

I will find out the results of the blood test tomorrow.

Thanks,
Lilo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 7:51 am:

Hello Lilo,
No I don't believe a warm day would be responsible for the mild bout of colic unless it changed your turn out or feeding routine. For a list of possibilities of management practices associated with colic and diseases that are possible see Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Colic in Horses » An Overview of Colic.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 9:30 am:

Hi DrO,

I did not mean the temperature of the day - I meant her starting to cycle again after the winter.

So far she seems OK. She ate the little bit of hay from last night. I found that she had urinated over night and left two piles of manure that looked totally normal. She did not seem very hungry but came into the stall for her hand-full of Equine Senior.

None of the risk factors mentioned in the article really apply. No change in feed other than I started her on daily strongid a month ago, after deworming with Ivermectin.

I am wondering if the fact that she went off her feed during the snowy time for a while and went off her feed again a few days ago are somehow connected?

I will keep a close eye on her, and hope to hear the blood test results today.

Lilo
Member:
image

Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 10:08 am:

Hi Lilo!

I have a mare that does the same thing when the season changes from fall to winter. Like us, sometimes they have days where they just don't feel as well as others. What seems to help my mare is to give her Probiotics and electrolytes for a few days. She always seems much better after the first day. The probiotics help to balance her good gut flora to aid digestion and there is nothing wrong with getting them to drink a little more water to help flush everything out. It doesn't hurt anything to try it and if the problem goes on (which it hasn't for Tardy..."knock on wood") I would get the vet back out. Just an idea that seems to work for us. I learned it from an old horseman/breeder.

Our best to you and Moonlight!
Charlayne
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 3:35 pm:

Charlayne,

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like something to try.

Talked to the vet about the blood test results this morning. All organ functions are normal - in fact the only thing that was not quite in the normal range
was the white blood cell count. It was 4900, the vet said that 6000 was the low range of normal.

His guess is that she may have had a virus. So I am continuing to watch her. Vet said I could hand graze her twice a day for about 15 minutes - I am sure she will not object to that.

Lilo and Moonlight
Member:
freshman

Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 12:33 am:

I hope your mare continues to improve.

The low white count could indicate a impending colitis. Horses sometimes seem a bit colicy or ADR prior to breaking with diarrhea. I'm not sure where you are located, but potomac horse fever can also look like this.

Not much to do but watch her and wait, so that really isn't any help at all. Obviously, you are carefully monitoring her anyway. But any loose stool or sign of foot pain would be especially concerning.

Again, I hope your mare regains her appetite. Nothing more worrisome that a horse that won't eat!
Member:
hwood

Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 12:40 am:

Lilo,
The info about the WBC may preclude anything to do with the following . . . but do you have any green grass coming up in your pastures, yet?
One of my guys eats his grain outside the pasture in order to make sure the other horses don't steal it from him. He finished and walked to the side lawn this morning, and found some of the new grass that is growing up like crazy around here. After I put him back in his dirt paddock with hay, he just ignored the hay and kept looking over the fence at the lawn . . . The taste of spring grass surely spoiled his appetite for last summer's dried grass.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 9:34 am:

Hi Holly and Kristin,

Thanks for your responses. Moonlight seems to be on the mend - this morning all her hay was gone (still less than her normal amount, but more than she had been eating). And - she seemed more interested in her breakfast. Her temp yesterday was 98.6.

I suggested in jest to the vet that maybe she was on a hunger strike because of the green grass in the pasture, but that is really unlikely.
Something was wrong - but I will probably never know exactly what.

Lilo
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 9:58 am:

DrO,

Just a question. In your opinion, what does a low white count imply?

Also, a lower than normal temperature?

I got scared at the implication that lipomas might be involved.

From my post above you can see that the mare seems to be on the mend.

Lilo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 12:34 pm:

As to whether estrus could have been responsible, I would only consider this if she were confirmed in heat while colicky.

There are many causes of a low WBC count and so without symptoms of a disease that causes leukopenia it is fairly meaningless, after the normal is only normal for 95% the other 5% of normals fall out of the normal range. Kristen suggests colitis but generally we would expect an elevated temperature. Acute viral infections would be on the list but again without fever less likely. I am wondering if you gave any medications prior to taking the blood for testing. For instance NSAID's can cause lower body temps and transient leukoopenia's in humans. The important thing at this point however is not to try to pin this on a tenative problem (and therefore overlooking the real cause) as it is to keep an open mind on the possible causes and monitoring for problems. For a list of causes on changes in WBC count see, References » Equine Vital Signs and Laboratory Values.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 6:36 pm:

Thanks, DrO!

I will look up that reference. She is due for her spring check-up in two or three weeks. Right now I am encouraged that she seems back to her normal self.

As to your question on whether she had had any medications the answer is "no". In fact the vet did not give her any pain killer either, because she did not act as if she was in pain while he observed her. The next day her temp was 98.6, which I think is pretty normal for her when at rest.

Thanks again,
Lilo
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 3:35 pm:

DrO,

I printed out and read the article on Equine Vital Signs and Laboratory Values.

After figuring out that lymphopenia and leukopenia mean essentially the same thing (am I correct?) I went through all the causes for leukopenia but I am not sure I am interpreting them correctly. To me it almost seems as we are referring to humans in some instances. Typhoid fever and malaria - never heard of that in horses.

Anyway, nothing jumped out at me at this time. Nutritional deficiency? Autoimmune disease?

I am hoping to get a copy of the blood work with the laboratory normals for my file.

DrO - what do you think about the suggestion for probiotics and electrolytes when a horse goes off their feed?

Thanks again,
Lilo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 7:40 am:

One reason for your confusion is you are going about this wrong Lilo. As I reference in my previous post, you cannot take a WBC abnormality and then using just this information diagnose a disease but with a very few exceptions. There are too many things that cause WBC abnormalities including the possibility that the low WBC count is without a known cause (idiopathic is the term on the list). Instead you first must have symptoms from which you create a list of probable diseases. WBC changes help narrow the list and in some cases may judge severity of the disease.

The second reason for your confusion is my fault and do to the incorrect use of lymphopenia in the article when the subtitle would have read leukopenia. Lymphocytes are one particular type of WBC while all the WBC's together are called the leukocytes, lymphopenia would be a low (either absolutely low or low relative to the number of neutrophils) lymphocytes. I have corrected this and my misprint above.

The list of disease is from the human literature because I have never found such a useful list in equine medicine and believe the overall principles apply to both specie.

Hmm for such a short term off feed there are no nutritional concerns however if the horse found them palatable they might encourage eating. But this could just as easily worked against you and if not palatable decrease appetite. Concerning probiotics and electrolytes you will find articles on both of these along with indications and actions.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 7:18 pm:

Thanks again, DrO!

I got a phone call from my regular vet yesterday, and we discussed Moonlights symptoms. He is receiving copies of the bloodwork for his file.

One thing he brought up was the possibility of ulcers. She is a trail horse and not really exposed to much stress. Most stress occurs when her buddy goes out for a trail ride without her, but she really dealt with that quite well last year.

I am just going to wait and watch and keep notes if this happens again.

Thanks again - having this resource is very helpful.

Lilo
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 4, 2007 - 9:17 pm:

Moonlight seems to be eating more normally now. She had never lost her interest in grazing or in her equine senior, but her hay intake was about 1/3 to 1/2 of normal for several days after my last post.

I noticed that she seemed to prefer eating in her paddock rather than her stall, so I have started feeding her in the paddock out of a fairly large tub. This morning it was chilly and she ran and bucked when she saw me coming - more like herself.

I will schedule spring shots for both horses in a week or ten days and hope Moonlight continues to feel well because I don't want to vaccinate if she is under the weather.

Thanks again to all who responded.

Lilo
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 2:53 pm:

Hi, DrO and all,

I am resurrecting this very old thread because I just went through another worrisome episode with Moonlight and there seems to be a pattern developing here. Sorry - this is very long. I could start a new discussion if that makes more sense.

Similar episodes occurred in 2008 and 2009 but not quite as worrisome, because she never lost interest in her equine senior feed. I would check her temperature and if normal, just wait and watch and her hay consumption would return to normal.

This year it started again. The weekend of the 17th and 18th of January she started leaving quite a bit of hay. I weigh her feed (she gets about 15 lbs of grass hay a day (split into 2 feedings), with either a 1 lb snack or 1 hour on winter pasture in the middle of the day). Additionally, she gets about 1 1/2 lbs of Senior and 1 lb Born-to-Win, split into 2 feedings. She was still cleaning up her Senior and Born-to-Win.

I started reducing the amount of hay, just making sure she had some to nibble on. Tuesday evening I came home from work and she had not touched her morning hay at all. She also curled her lip, as if in pain. Her temperature was normal (101 deg F). Called the vet - he could not come until the next morning. I got the number of Littleton Large Animal Clinic - just in case. By this time Moonlight was lying down in her paddock - but no rolling or obvious signs of pain.

My neighbor came over again for moral support. Temperature was 100 deg. by now - no more curling of the lip. She gladly took a horse treat and a small amount of senior by hand.
I removed all feed except a small amount of hay
and checked her one more time later in the evening. She did not seem painful, just depressed.

When I checked her Wednesday morning she still had not eaten any hay. She tried to get at some dry weeds outside her paddock, so I hand grazed her for a few minutes. She went for all the dry stuff in our back yard.

Vet check: all vital signs normal, gut motility somewhat reduced, slightly depressed. Offered Senior feed by hand which she ate. Started putting her on winter pasture for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, upon Vet's suggestion - offering small amounts of Senior in between. Vet drew blood for a CBC and chemistry panel and called me in the afternoon with the results - all values within normal range or nearly so. He said he could do a rectal (however, her manure looked normal, although reduced output) but did not think it would help.

I continued with small amounts of Senior feed several times a day, and two periods of grazing. By Friday she started eating better, and her manure output increased. By today (Monday) she is back to normal.

The one question I did not ask the vet: could this be a sign of ulcers? There was no teeth grinding, and these episodes do not last long enough to lead to weight loss, so I am inclined to think that ulcers are not likely.

Anyone had similar experiences to this? A neighbor recalled that an older horse of hers would periodically go off his feed with no apparent signs of illness - she eventually lost him to a colic due to strangulation of his intestine by a lipoma.

I really wish I knew what was going on here ....

Lilo
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 4:47 pm:

Lilo, the symptoms you describe (off her feed, very slightly elevated temp, lying down) sound to me like mild colic/GI upset. If I'm reading the above right, she was eating a little less for a few days, then went completely off her feed from Tues to Wed, and was interested in pasture again by Wed. Is that right?

Was she drinking through this and did she show any sign of dehydration?

Could this be a very mild partial impaction that passed on it's own? Otherwise I'd look as you are to other causes of GI pain, such as ulcers, sand, etc. I've seen horses colic and be extremely stoic about it just as you are describing...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 5:17 pm:

Sorry to hear about Moonlight, glad she is recovering well.

I would have to look at the time of year maybe since it has been Jan. related.

Many things come to mind but one can never be sure

Mild impaction from drinking less.

Possibly estrus starting..did she show any signs of that?

Gas colic from eating something strange in the winter pasture... or too much grass (if you have any)

Does she exhibit any symptoms of Cushings Disease? I know she has the "weird fat"... Jan. seems to be a bad month for them

Hope you are able to figure it out... Sometimes we never do
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 5:34 pm:

Going off feed and mild depression are important signs of illness and the number one and two cause of these symptoms with no other signs would be colic or fever. Remember that a common sign of mild pain is depression. Strong support for the diagnosis is a injection of flunixin and remarkable improvement in 20 minutes. To diagnose the cause of your horses colic pain a rectal would be the first step but in mild cases often not diagnostic.
DrO
Member:
quatro

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 7:09 pm:

I go through this with Dusty every winter, I can't give shots, so I give him oral banamine and he seems to come around in a day or so. Also, I have been getting hay cubes and soaking them in warm water, spill a little molasses on top, and he slurps it down. He just will not drink in the cold weather.
Good luck
suz
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 9:52 pm:

Thank you all for responding so quickly. We do not believe she was de-hydrated - her manure looked normal and pinch test negative.

Yes, Diane - she has had a cresty neck and weird patches of fat for a few years now - but shed's out normally in the spring. She has been turned out on the same pasture for short periods (about an hour) all winter long.

DrO - mild colic is what I was thinking. My vet seems to feel if there is no looking or kicking at the belly it is not colic. This mare does have a history of mild gas colics that usually resolve very quickly - within hours. I could ask the vet for some oral banamine in case this happens again as Susan suggested.

I am happy to see that she is pretty much back to her spunky old self again.

Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 1:14 pm:

Glad that she is doing better, Lilo.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 7:32 pm:

Thank you, Vicki. Just as she was improving, the gelding presented with a teary, swollen eye. Fortunately, that seems to have been due to a tiny scratch on his lower eyelid and appears to be resolving with cleaning the outside of the eye and keeping a fly mask on him.
Always something .....
Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 11:03 am:

Hi Lilo; reading through your post on Moonlight, I was just going to comment that as Beau got older, she got very finicky about her food. She never acted colicky, but for the last few years of her life she would pick through her hay like she suspected poison. Some morning she's only eat the stems, other mornings only the leaves. Sometimes she'd only eat her Senior and beetpulp; other days she would disgustedly dump in the minute I served it. I've heard stories of other older mares acting the same way. This behavior started way before she was diagnosed or had any sign of Cushings or any other problems, and nothing ever showed up in her blood work, until about a year before she died. She had always been an easy keeper, her nickname was "Miss Piggy" for good reason. I wonder if some of Moonlight's behavior could be just an "old mare" thing? I'm glad she's doing better, but I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't have more of these "spells."

How is the geldings eye?
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 3:37 pm:

Hi Sara,

Thanks for commenting. Of course I had to think of Beau when Moonlight started leaving so much hay. I wrote a note to the vet today (had to pay my bill, anyway) and asked about ulcers. Wanda thought that might be an option. I think the vet might want to test for Cushings when he comes out for the spring check up. She has had a cresty neck for years, and fat pads especially behind her withers. Then I will be hunting for reasonable prices for pergolide, if she tests positive.

Thanks for asking about the gelding - he seems to need the fly mask right now, even though there are no flies. The cut I noticed initially is healed, but on Monday he came in from the pasture with tears running down his face. When I put the fly mask on, he seems to do much better. He has sensitive eyes, anyway.

Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 4:08 pm:

Probably the fly mask acts like sunglasses and shields his eyes from the bright light.

Whether Moonlight has Cushings or not, I'm begining to think all old mares, at least ones that "are spoiled" get a little fussy. I had Beau ultrasounded, checked for ulcers, bloodwork done, etc. and nothing ever showed up until about a year before she died, when she started to show signs of renal problems. Good luck with Moonlight! Keep us posted on the old girl. (I freqently think these old girls just stand around thinking of ways to drive their owners crazy!)
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 1:36 pm:

Yes, Sara - she has given me plenty to worry about this winter. Can't complain, however, for most of her life she has been pretty sound and unproblematic.
Lilo
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:03 am:

Update: Moonlight is still doing well, however I have cut back a little on hay rations - she does not finish her hay. It is grass hay with a little alfalfa mixed in - the first thing she does is throw the flakes out of her tub so she can get at the fine leaves underneath. The hay she leaves is consists of the dry stalks.

I spoke with my vet on Friday to discuss the possibility of ulcers. He had actually just returned from a week long seminar and showed me his notepad: Moonlight - ulcers? Something in the seminar must have triggered this suspicion.

The plan right now is if she goes off her feed again to put her on a 2 week regimen of Gastroguard (expensive!) to see if it brings about rapid improvement.

Here is my question: we discussed scoping her and he quoted me a price of $800 at Littleton Large Animal Clinic. I talked to a friend yesterday who had a jumping pony diagnosed with ulcers. It was scoped right at her home and she remembers a price of less than a 100 dollars. Anyone have had their horses scoped and what did it cost?

I really would like to find out what causes this recurrent behavior, always during the winter months (January through March).

Thanks for any info you can provide,
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:13 am:

Lilo glad Moonlight is still doing well.

The only thing I have to wonder about the ulcer theory is when they have ulcers it would be a year round problem, not just a couple months of the year.

The banamine experiment would make more sense in my mind. If she is better following it, it would suggest she is having a gas or slight impaction colic which is quite common in the winter months. JMHO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:13 pm:

Diane makes a good point mentioning the Banamine because with Perry and his ulcers, Banamine made him feel worse.

Check into the classic ulcer signs.

For Perry it was endless tooth grinding, plus circling, lack of appetite, etc.

Similar in some ways to a colic, but also different.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:14 pm:

In the case of ulcers, it takes nearly a week for the Gastro Guard to improve how the horse is feeling.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 12:50 pm:

Vicki - thank you so much for your input. I did look at the ulcer article - cannot remember about Banamine making it worse.
DrO might know why that is?

Lilo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 6:10 pm:

It has not been my experience that flunixin worsens the pain of ulcers.

Ulcers created by management (squamous region) are very different than the ulcers created by NSAIDs (glandular region) and it is not clear that careful NSAID use will worsen management ulcers. However the effects of NSAID on the healing of management induced ulcers has not been studied so we recommend caution with their use in the presence on clinically significant ulcerative disease. A rare condition in all but mostly stalled equine athletes who are galloped often in my experience.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 9:40 pm:

DrO - Thank you for your answer. I really have a hard time believing that my mare's periodic "going off her feed, depression and mild pain" symptoms are due to ulcers but I cannot come up with anything else. Would improvement during a course of Gastroguard (without using any pain killers) be somewhat diagnostic?
Lilo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 3:22 pm:

It would support the notion but would not be diagnostic.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 5:41 pm:

Thanks again, DrO. Nobody responded to my question about the cost of scoping a horse for ulcers. Could you give me an idea of the approximate cost, recognizing that these could vary widely from state to state?
Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 11:44 pm:

Hi Lilo; I was gone over the weekend and thought I'd "check in" and see how Moonlight was doing. I'm glad she still seems o.k. When I had Beau scoped several years ago, it was only about $200 if I remember right. They did have to mildly sedate her, like they do for floating her teeth. The cost of the drug was added to the price of the scope, but was pretty minimal. I have to add, however, that prices here and in Las Vegas even are much less than they are in CA and some other parts of the country. I don't know how prices here compare to where you are. I should know, but have forgotten where you are; are you too far from CSU to take her there? Don't the schools usually have lower costs than private clinics? It might be worth a call anyway.

btw, there is a generic for gastroguard. I can't remember if the article mentioned it or Dr.O's opinion of it however.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 7:16 am:

Yes we discuss generic omeprazole in the article on ulcers. As to the cost of scoping I avoid quoting prices, as any number I give you is likely to not be applicable to your area.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:42 am:

DrO and Sara,

Thanks for your comments. CSU is about an 1 1/2 hours from me, but my truck is very old and it is scary to drive the interstate. Conversely, Littleton Large Animal Clinic is 1/2 hour away, really easy to get to.

Right now I am watching and waiting and considering maybe adding a small amount of alfalfa cubes to her diet (per the article). However, my vet hates alfalfa cubes because of the risk of choke (must have had bad experiences along that line). I could soak them, however. I try to keep him up to speed whenever I change her management - he has known the horse for 10 years or more.

Thanks again,
Lilo
Member:
lucyc1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 1:35 pm:

Lilo: We have used alfalfa cubes for a horse who had had ulcers. He was treated for the ulcers, but not kept on the preventative dose of gastrogard -- because it is so expensive. We soaked the cubes -- They break up completely --so there would have been no danger of choke. I can't say that we learned that they did or didn't help -- he did well, but he is still doing well and no longer on the alfalfa cubes. I believe, however, that the research that suggests alfalfa may help with ulcers was done on regular alfalfa. The question has been raised whether part of the protective quality is lost when the alfalfa is chopped because it passes through the stomach more quickly.

Not sure that this relates to Moonlight's situation, but just for interest: We had a horse in our barn with somewhat similar symptoms. Merial gave a free demonstration scoping at our barn a year ago. It turned out that he had a grapefruit (small grapefruit) sized bezoar (mass of undigested matter -- looked kind of like shavings on the radiograph)in his stomach. He was treated with coca-cola (2x per day.) He liked it! It shrank the bezoar, and softened it so that on the subsequent scoping the vet was able to break it up considerably. In the end it was not completely resolved. (For other reasons the horse was retired and moved. He is doing well, but isn't being ridden anymore.) As I said, not at all sure this relates to your situation.

As for the cost of scoping: even in this one area I've seen a very wide range of prices, from a little over a hundred to much more. Sometimes if there might need to be a follow up scoping the second one is about half price.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 2:37 pm:

Interesting about the bezoar, Lucy.

I was just reading not to feed persimmons to horses because they can cause bezoars to form, and sometimes they also form in humans.

Cocoa Cola was suggested as a remedy to help dissolve them.

One must wonder what other foodstuffs might create bezoars.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 4:34 pm:

Thank your for your comments, Lucy and Vicki. Never heard of bezoars before - the stuff you learn on HA. Heck - I can imagine Moonlight getting addicted to Coca Cola ....
Lilo
Member:
sdms

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 4:47 pm:

Hi Lilo. I've been following your posts about Moonlight and just saw that you're considering adding alfalfa cubes. I understand your concerns about choke so you might consider asking your vet about soaking the cubes or feeding soaked alfalfa pellets. I have a 23 year old mare who's teeth are very worn and additionally is a hard keeper especially when lactating. I've been feeding her soaked alfalfa pellets for almost a year and she's thriving; fat and happy. She still gets her pelleted feed and a couple of small flakes of grass every day. The grass is mostly to keep her busy as I don't know how much ends up in her versus in chewed up wads on the ground! I have to say that I'm definitely a fan of soaked alfalfa pellets as part of a geriatric horse's diet.

Good luck!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 9:55 am:

Hi Sara M (to differentiate from Sara in Utah ..)
Thanks for your input. Moonlight still eats her hay and I actually have to watch that she does not become overweight. What I can't figure out are these episodes of "going off her feed". But, I will keep your comments in mind - good to know this works for your mare. Our mares are of similar age - Moonlight will be 24 in May.
Lilo

P.S. I hope you will post if you have a practice session on your obstacle course - I still would like to come and see your place. I have a super busy schedule through the month of March and into early April, to the detriment of my horse activities.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:18 pm:

Howdy, Lilo, I guess my point was that alfalfa cubes can be fed without the worry of choke if they're soaked. I just got a little long winded! I can't help with her bouts of going off feed but I hope you get it figured out.

We do plan to have some practice days this summer. We'd like to make it a regular event here. We're so governed by the weather here that it's hard to plan anything too much in advance. We still have big muddy wet spots out there from our snow two weeks ago. I'll be sure to post on here and shoot you an e-mail whenever we set something up. I'd love to have some HA people over to play!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:47 pm:

There are no foodstuffs, other than pasture and perhaps hay, that I have not seen a horse choke on and that includes fresh cut grass. If I had to pick a worse offender it would be pellets of any kind but I don't think we should stop feeding pellets.
DrO
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:48 pm:

Hi Sara - I need to look up how much alfalfa I could feed without upsetting the Calcium/Phosphorus balance. I have stayed away from alfalfa so far - but in Africa that was the only hay we could get. Did not know anything about Ca/P balance in those days.
Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 1:01 am:

I would just mention that you should check the articles on IR and Cushings before adding more alfalfa to Moonlight's diet if there is a chance that she is either one. My senior horses have always loved beetpulp with a little bran and corn oil added. I also mix in Eq. Senior or a good vitamin/mineral mix. What I put into the beet pulp depends on what, if any, hay they are eating. It's a good way to keep weight on an older horse if you haven't tried it. I also always soak cubes when I feed them to older horses and always soak alfalfa pellets as I once had a horse choke on them....and saw the rescue mare choke on them the morning I went to pick her up. I've never had a problem with cubes, but soaking makes them easier to eat imo, and also give the horse extra water.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 9:45 am:

DrO - thanks for your feedback on choke. I myself was not too worried about it.

Sara and Sara M: I like the idea that I can always go back to HA discussions and read about all the advice that came my way. At the moment weight loss is not Moonlights problem, but she does show signs of being IR and my vet is keeping an eye on that.
Too bad horses can't talk - first she bangs up her front leg, then the episode of not eating well and getting depressed, a few days ago she came up with a cut on her lip (outside of the lip) that I am keeping an eye on ... She has been with me for 18 years and never has gotten in this kind of trouble before.
Trying to keep me on my toes, I guess.
Lilo
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 8:57 pm:

FYI...Scoping for gastric ulcers on the east coast is typically about $1,000. Most folks I know that highly suspect ulcer's along with their vet just run a course of treatment for roughly the same amount instead of spending the 1K twice.

Ike
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 9:35 am:

Ike - Thanks for your input. That price tag is similar to what was quoted me. So far we are doing well with my mare, but I am watching closely. She really is not at "high risk" for ulcers, anyway. But, we decided that if this happens again, we might try a course of Gastroguard - which, as you mention, is quite expensive and according to DrO can not really be considered diagnostic. She typically gets better after about 10 days without any treatment.
Lilo
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