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Discussion on Feedback Appreciated on Nutrition
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 6:12 pm:
well, here goes... i've calculated up what i think my horse is getting. i hope i've done this right. i am looking for goofs and potential recommendation from the masses 
the horse is a 9 y/o anglo arab gelding at roughly 1000# to 1100#. no medical problems, slightly spooky (i hate to stereotype, but he's "arab-ish"), and LOTS of go-go-energy. he was a rescue 4 months ago. he was about 150# underwieght at purchase, vet says he looks "super duper excellent" now. he was brought up to wieght on alfalfa hay and triple crown "complete". he was recently wiened off of the "complete" stuff to alfalfa hay and secate pellets (50/50 bermuda/alfalfa) 5 pounds each twice daily.
the folks i ride with recommended a cut back on the protein and potentially add a small amount of oil. this is in hopes of calming him a bit, helping along the coat, etc etc. i checked with the vet and he said thats a great idea (but we didnt go into details at that point)
he has an arena area during the day, but no "pasture". he is ridden once or twice per week, sometimes more.. trails only, very mellow. my riding skills suck!
if i calculated this out correctly, i'm still a bit high on protein. timothy hay is VERY expensive in this area ($15-$19 for a 125# bail). would bermuda be better??? i'm looking to again cut back more on the protein and want to know how much oil should be added (and what to cut back accordingly).
current feeding:
morning: 5# timothy, 4.5# secate pellets
evening: 5# alfalfa, 4.5# secate pellets, Vitamin suppliment
total per day: 19# (with a 1000# horse, this is about 1.9% of body weight)
for the pellets, i just averaged the alfalfa and bermuda values. the label doesnt list much for its makeup.
DE: using timothy=.8 alfalfa=.9 bermuda=.85 = 16.38 Mcal/day (desired ~16)
CP: using timothy=9% alfalfa=17% pellets=10% = 11.57% (desired 9-10%)
Ca: using timothy=.4 alfalfa=1.1 pellets=.7 = .72% (desired .32 ish)
P: using timothy=.3 alfalfa=.3 pellets=.26 = .28% (desired .22 ish)
Vit A: (not sure if i did this right...) timothy= 8 alfalfa=17 pellets=11.5 = 228,000 IU/day
Vitamin Suppliment data (per day):
lysine=204mg
A=30IU
D3=2500ICU
folic acid=1.5mg
E=60IU
B1=50mg
B2=40mg
B12=400mcg
K3=1mg
D-Biotin=50mg
D-calcium pantothenate=500mg
L-methionine=95mg
any thoughts? am i totally goofed? would oil help? Thanks for the input where ever possible!!!
doug
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 7:04 am:
Without getting out my calculator you seem to be close and the change over to oil to replace (not add to) some of the MCal sensible. Just a few comments:
Your dietary vitamin A content is unknown because of the huge variability in forages: the rule of thumb is as long as your forages are very green and otherwise excellent quality you are getting adequate, but unknown, amounts of oil soluble vitamins. To a lesser degree this true for the MCal and CP values of your forages. NB: you are not trying to reach 16 Mcal / day, you are trying to keep your horse in good condition. Consider this example: Imagine trying to maintain air speed by calculating the exact amount of fuel that SHOULD be required, taking into account as many of the known variables as possible, and then just feeding that amount of fuel to the airplane. Some of the unknowns or rapidly changing variables would result in either a stall or excessive speed. Instead I suspect you push up the throttle until your air speed is correct on the gauge. Feeding horses is much the same with the horses condition representing the gauge by which you judge your feeding program.
I agree that you could substitute some grass hay for alfalfa with a slight increase in amount to compensate for lower Mcal. Though tens of thousands of horses are maintained on bermuda, some have noticed an increase in colic incidence on coastal bermuda hay but I agree that price for timothy is...expensive. Concerning your protein, if your pellets are as you describe their crude protein should be higher than 10%. Your calcium / phosphorous levels are fine (see article on this). My biggest concern is that he is only getting 10 lbs forage daily. The pellets do not count as they are processed. This should be considered a minimum. I would begin switching out the pellets for oil. You can find some help on doing this at » Care for Horses » Nutrition » Fats and Oils in the Diet of Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 7:46 pm:
excellent analogy! i'll remember that the next time i'm on an ILS watching my fuel flow meter
my judgement on the forage might have been in error as i read back through your white papers, but i did notice two things that i was leading on.
(1) i saw the statement (paraphrased) "forage = stuff with > 18% crude fiber". i guess i figured then he was getting close to 100% forage had the pellets been not disqualified.
(2) when feeding aproximately 5 pound flakes, there was a good percentage remaining at the next feeding time. we also notice him nibbling/munching throughout the day. this led me to believe that he was throttling himself and was getting sufficient hay.
the pellets (secate/burmuda blend brand) states only the following: "CF... not more than 30%" and "CP... not less than 10%". not much help i know, i will try to find their web site and get a better idea of the contents.
interestingly enough, this morning and this afternoon his bin was empty of the feed. i will increase the flake sizes a bit and cut back the pellets a bit. i will also review the fats/oils paper later this evening.
many thanks for the response!
doug
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 12:52 am:
update:
a week with reduced protein now. i DEFINATELY saw a difference this weekend. instead of being "beavis on double-shot expresso" he was "beavis on snickers bar"
we did a 2 hour river ride yesterday. 99% uneventfull, fairly smooth and calm. he led and followed well. his "homebound overdrive mode" was greatly reduced. he was actually keeping a slightly lower head. his groundwork and ground manners seem calmer also. a bit more attentive with not quite as much A.D.D. best of all, way less spooking!!!!!!
now, in all fairness to science, and the horse, there could be some other factors involved.
i *might* be a little more confident (not much though). the horse might be more used to the areas we ride. or who knows, the planets might have been in the right place for a good weekend of riding the day and night temps have also gone up 20 degrees. having 4 days off gave me more time to work on ground stuff and spend more time with him. this may also be a contributing factor.
health looks good, no change there. eating and drinking habits appear the same. he's still a wonderfull pal when i'm just hangin' out with him or doing yardwork.
maybe its just a combination of everything with a dose of time...
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 11:22 pm:
Sounds good to me. I have a QH mare, an easy (easiest) keeper who was on alfalfa hay for awhile and I too noticed a marked increase her excitability. Timothy suits her much better.
I lived in S. California while I was going to school and I never knew so many "horsey" places existed.
Happy trails.
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Member:
Cassey
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Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 6:14 am:
Re: alfalfa making horses "hot". I have an EPSM horse, and regularly visit the ruralheritage.com website. A few people there also noted that the recommended alfalfa makes their horses very excitable, too; so there you go Doug, more validation of your observation.
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Member:
Mszoey
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003 - 11:32 am:
I have been feeding alfalfa for over 40 years, this last cutting was extra nice, can alfalfa be to good, here are my test results, please tell me what your thoughts are;
Dry Basis
Crude Protein 26.1
FIBERS
Acid Det. Fiber 20.2
Neut. Det. Fiber 21.0
ENERGIES
TDN Est. 77.0
NE/Lact, Mcal/lb .8032
NE/Maint,Mcal/lb .8412
NE/Gain,Mcal/lb .5538
RFV
Relative feed value 325.0
MINERALS
Calcium 1.56
Phosphorus .36
Potassium 3.67
Magnesium .34
Nitrate 1068 safe
thank you Sherri
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 2:01 am:
Doug- Anglo/Arabs are a great cross. (Being an Arab breeder I'm partial to the Arab half, of course) Both breeds, as you probably know, are high energy horses. Unless they are young and growing, or are in heavy use (endurance, racing, etc.) They need to be fed differently (as a rule) so as to keep them in condition and healthy but not "reved up." It sounds to me like you are on the right track. I've found rice bran (straight-not the pelleted mix) helps put on weight and condition without the "high" you get from some other feeds. I know some folks that swear by Cocoasoya oil, too (sp. is wrong I think)
On the right feed program for his use and enough exercise he'll settle down, not be "spooky" and still have lots of energy. Also, Anglo/Arabs are really sensitive and smart. Once he gets trust in you and senses you are more at ease with him, he will also be calmer when you ride. I've found both of these breeds mirror whatever I'm feeling (fear, nervousness, etc.) and "play it back" to me, thus magnifing the emotion and creating a "vicious circle" if you understand what I mean.
Dr O. You are my "dream man." A vet and a pilot?!What a combo!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 9:01 am:
Now you got me blushing and I have to admit to no pilots licence, just a little time on the kids Flight Simulator. It is on the to do list though as soon as the kids are out of the house.
Let's see Sharri, the one problem with feeding straight alfalfa is the association with an increase incidence of enteroliths (Equine Diseases » Colic and GI Diseases » Colic in Horses » Enteroliths in Horses). It is thought the high calcium is responsible as this is a major component of the stone and your alfalfa has higher than normal calcium. Also it is caused your Ca/Phos ratio to approach that important 6:1 ratio. Probably OK for adults but I would be worried about pregnant mares and growig horses.
Short term studies cannot find a problem with feeding protein levels at this high a level however.
DrO
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Member:
Mszoey
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 10:12 am:
I have adult horses, but i do have preg mares 7 months infoal, and 7 month old colts, is there a way to balance this ratio? thank you Sherri
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 5:50 pm:
You must look at the total diet including forage consumption on pasture. Essentially you will want to dilute the alfalfa with a lower calcium containing forage. The article on nutrition overview would be a good start to understand the way the various parts of the diet work together, see » Care for Horses » Nutrition » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. The article on Ca and Ph will give you some specific ideas of how to dilute out the high calcium, see » Care for Horses » Nutrition » Calcium, Phosphorus in the Diet.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 13, 2003 - 10:27 pm:
Dr. O- Is the high calcium level a concern (for adults) in all areas, or just sandy soil areas? We live in alkali/hard pan with little to no sand and vet here says the only enteroliths he ever sees are in horses that have come in from Calif.
Just wondering. Thanks. btw-Do get your pilot's license. It's REALLY fun!
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Member:
Mszoey
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2003 - 2:19 am:
In reading the articles you referred me to,the chart for alfalfa in early bloom, as mine, show cal 1.4 phos .3, mine shows cal 1.56 to phos .36, am I calc. correctly is this not a 4+ to 1 ratio? Also, I feed 4 # 25%corn(cal.03/phos .3)/75%avg. oats (.1 cal/.35 phos)twice a day, would this phos content be any consulation to my overall ratio?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2003 - 7:31 am:
A great percentage of horses on high alfalfa diets never have a problem. There is a increased reporting of enteroliths in CA horses but the reason for this is uncertain: best to be careful as enteroliths can occur anywhere and almost always in horses on high alfalfa diets.
As stated in the former post you must consider your total diet. Concerning the grain, it is not the Ph content that is important but the low calcium that will help lower the total Ca% in the diet. Using all the numbers you have calculate the total weight of Ca and Ph in the diet and divide by the total weight of feed and see what you get. The large amount of grain in the diet should greatly improve your numbers.
DrO
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Member:
Mszoey
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Posted on Friday, Nov 14, 2003 - 12:15 pm:
The only diet my horses are on is the alfalfa and grain, they are on dry lot no pasture, no other forage. The mares infoal are my concern at this point. I have always fed my horses alfalfa, I have never had any colic, or have they ever had enteroliths. I raise show colts and show mature show horses all are on the same feed program, they have all done well and look wonderful on the feed program I use. My alfalfa ratio has always been 3:1, that is why this higher ratio concerned me. I was concerned for the unborn foals. I will do your calculations and see what I have. If you would do the calc. for me - I would like to see your summary to compare mine to - to see if I get the same; I feed 10#'s alfalfa and 4.5#'s corn/oat mix 2x's aday.
I was looking at my feed test report there are two columns As Received Basis and Dry Basis column. The Received column shows calc. at 1.33 phos at .31, the Dry Basis column shows the figures I gave you in previous post of 1.56 calcium and phos at .36, which asis is the correct one to use? Thank you for your patience, Sherri
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 - 4:26 am:
Since your weights are on the "As Received" basis I would use that for the calculations.
DrO
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