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Discussion on Fly Control
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Member:
Donna
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 19, 2003 - 8:14 am:
A year or so ago I was reading a question from a lady that wanted to know about feeding garlic to horses for fly control. All the folks wrote back to say that it didn't work. All I can say is that they must not have been using a pure garlic. The stuff I use is 98% pure, and it sure works. At first I feed the daily recommended dose but becuase of all the rain I had to up it to double the dose. When I turn my horses out in the afternoon there are very few tail moving fighting flies. The flies are really bad in and around the barn except where the horse actually are. The flies don't even like the manure from the horses. In short it works GREAT. If anyone wants to know where I got it or more information just e-mail me at bkbgold@olemac.net.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 19, 2003 - 6:54 pm:
Maybe Donna but many of our members and clients of mine have not seen a benefit from the use of garlic as a feed through fly repellant despite a stinking barn.
DrO
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2003 - 8:33 am:
Hi There,
Thanks for the # to call for Garlic.
My farrier also recommends non other than Avons Skin So Soft! He said it works miracles on the horses as with us humans!
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Member:
Mwebster
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Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2003 - 10:06 am:
Skin So Soft does a great job repelling the green-headed flies at the beach in New Jersey. We really put it to the test one memorable weekend when we visited cousins there, and the flies were unbelievable and fierce. But SSS doesn't do much for mosquitos, deer flies, black stable flies or gnats. And it doesn't last very long post-application. I think a good fly spray should repell everything that bites, and keep working more than a few hours.
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Member:
Dommay
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Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2003 - 10:08 am:
Thanks for your input but my main concern with some of these fly sprays out there is the toxins in them. Wear rubber gloves, don't breath in mist...if it is that dangerous to humans, i would love to know what it will do to the skin of my horse and overtime his health.
Anyone know of a safe product that doesn't cause major issues over time??
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Member:
Donna
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Posted on Friday, Jun 20, 2003 - 2:11 pm:
DrO I know some people can't stand the smell of garlic, me I have gotten used to it. Course I also feed vinager along with the garlic, shich helps with flies and also with a horse that is coughing especially from dust. I know a lot of vets don't believe in this stuff, Mine doesn't either but your win a few and lose a few. All I know is its works for me it isn't toxic to the horse or me and doesn't make then oily like SSS does, yes I have tried SSS too and find the garlic works better.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2003 - 8:19 am:
SSS has been around a long as a repellant. We used SSS for several years and were generally disapointed with the results. I love the smell of garlic on my food, not so muchm the barn, but the real problem for me is that it seems to be that the flies don't mind it.
Dominique a lot depends on what you are looking for: which type flies for what duration are you looking to repel. Quiet frankly I have never seen a case report on a horse hurt with the commonly available pyrethrin fly repellant sprays marketed for horses, on the other hand they are not that effective for more than what seems a few minutes. The new concentrated spot treatments have caused some skin irritation problems. For riding I like Deep Woods Off, it is effective for about 2 hours for most biting flies.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 21, 2003 - 8:05 pm:
Dr.O, Can we use Deep Woods OFF on the horses? For over 30 years, I've used Repel-X, Wipe, and everything else on my horses AND me. I feed Equitrol and pick up pastures, paddock, arena and barn AM and PM. I've only seen a couple of horses sensitive to the repellants, but their skin was also highly sensitive to fly and tick bites resulting in welts, hives and edema. Garlic, vinegar, and B1 did zilch for me. With the insect carried diseases proliferating, I'll feel better sticking with heavy duty sprays.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 22, 2003 - 8:26 pm:
Though I have never been able to find a toxicological study on its use in horses we have been using it for almost 10 years now for riding without problems. There was a labeled product a few years ago for horses that contained DEET that appears to no longer be on the market. We have never had a problem other than the need to reapply every couple of hours but you use it at your own risk.
However spraying horses with anything comercially available before they go out to pasture for more than a few hours is a waste: none of the available products are useful for that long and I think the jury is still out on these Spot treatments. I think managing your horses around the insects of biggest concern to you and summer sheets may be the best protection you can find for your horses out in the pasture. See the various articles on biting insets for more on this.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2003 - 12:12 am:
Thanks Dr.O, Since we've moved to the Jersey pinelands 5 yrs ago, I will now admit to all: I HAVE used Deep Woods Off on my horses when I trail ride in tick season. Nothing else seems to fend off those #*%$ ticks and chiggers on those sandy, wild blueberry scrubby trails. But it's only below the knees and rubbed on their faces.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2003 - 8:19 am:
When the flies are bad I spray the whole horse, then the whole me.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Monday, Jun 23, 2003 - 10:27 pm:
Why, I think that's one of the nicest things I ever heard!
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Member:
Jlmule
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 2:00 pm:
I first started using "people bug sprays" several years ago when my farrier pulled out a can of Off and sprayed down the horses before trying to work on their feet. I too think they work better than most other products and I like the finer mist that the cans put out. The youngsters in particular seem less bothered by the canned sprays rather than the pump type.
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Member:
Riley94
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 23, 2003 - 9:56 pm:
When the bugs are getting really bad, I find that OFF Skintastic in the cream or lotion form is great. I rub it on my palms and then apply it to my horses ears and face. I'm not sure how long this lasts. I do this for riding out.
I use the U-shield the rest of the time and find my horses seem more comfortable than others using other products. Sometimes I apply it with a cloth. I have trouble imagining that something that is insecticidal could really be benign to our lungs. I worry more about the stable worker who applies alot of it daily, than I do for myself (2 horses, applied every other day).
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Friday, Mar 10, 2006 - 11:45 am:
Hi Dr. O,
I pulled this post up from a while ago. Just wondering what the current thought is regarding the effectiveness of the spot on treatments.
If this is used what is the strongest stuff that can also be used along with the spot treatments for a day out on the trail?
What is the thought of the fly treatment that is fed daily?
Any other fly/tick thoughts that anyone has because alas, spring is coming!
Ella 
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Mar 10, 2006 - 4:28 pm:
Oh God! I'm just getting over winter, and now I have to think about FLIES AGAIN?!!
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Member:
Melis
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 - 9:22 am:
There is a review of spot-on fly products in the March 2006 Horse Journal. It sums up I have experienced. They work ok but definitely do not last the full 14 days. If your horse is pastured and you are unable to use traditional spray on products several times a day then the spot on treatments may be your best bet.
For the past several years I, too, have been using people spray with DEET when the biting bugs are at their worst.
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 - 3:59 pm:
What else can go on the horse if it has this product on. i.e. chemicals that shouldn't mix...
Ella
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Member:
Melis
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 8:51 am:
I'm not sure what chemicals shouldn't be mixed. When I used the spot-on treatments and needed a little bit more fly control, I used the natural sprays (no permethrin) or Children's Off.
This year I'm going to purchase fly sheets!
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 9:23 am:
It is their chest and bellies that they are getting bitten on and the fly sheets don't help the bellies. I had a mare last year that had her belly bitten raw. If I rubbed my hand over her stomach it would come out covered in blood - like an episode of MASH or something. My horses are out from about 6 in the morning until 8 at night and the sprays just don't last that long. I am trying to figure out what to do for them so they are comfortable.
Any thoughts?
Ella
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 9:39 am:
Dr. O,
Do you know what is the strongest spray stuff that can be used along with the spot treatments?
Ella
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 9:41 am:
Can the deep woods off be used when trail riding if the horse has been treated with the spot stuff?
Ella
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 10:43 am:
Ella, there are fly sheets with belly wraps, which should help some. I've heard really good things about fly predators. I only used them for one year because we moved and I haven't gotten around to ordering them since the relocation and now we're relocating AGAIN. My understanding is that the first year there isn't much change, the next year it cuts the flies way down and just keeps on from there. The cost is less than fly sprays - which won't even knock a fly down that's been sprayed directly.
Cheryl
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 11:19 am:
Hi Cheryl, I too tried the predators and noticed a little difference the first year, but not much. Didn't do it the next year but noticed I still had them, seems to me they would reproduce enough to not have to keep buying them, but I don't know. One of my vets mentioned that you have to really know what flies you have, so you order predators for that specific fly. Have you heard this?
I understand that they wont work well if your neighbors dont use them too. I think it would be a hard talk trying to convince my neighbors, so figure what the heck- probably just spinning my wheels ordering them again.
Chris
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 1:22 pm:
Chris, i used the prredators one season as well.. and frankly did not notice any difference in the mass fly population...i am flanked by cattle ranches and goats... they don't use the buggies, so i felt i was just throwing my $$ away... won't use them this year... guess fly masks and SWAT on the belly is the only defence...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 2:34 pm:
Garlic! pure garlic. After hurricane Wilma there were so many dead animals that you can imagine the fly infestation, and not only the normal black fly, but also blue bottles, horse fly, you name it we had it.
So as people here said off I go with my herbal remedies (frog’s legs, red ant eyes) now really
I add a wedge, tooth, claw or which ever way is celled, you know not the whole garlic but a section chopped in little pieces in every feed, and no more bites on the horses! Hey if Dracula himself does not like garlic!
Also for us two legged beast's garlic or vitamin B are just the ticket!
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 3:01 pm:
The big problem is neighbors who would never dream of trying to get rid of flies. When we were in WA, we had cows on two sides and horses on one. Hopefully when we re-locate this time we will be isolated enough that I can try the predators and see it they help. I've tried the spot-ons - didn't help at all - I think flies have gotten immune to permethrin. I have sprayed the flies with unmixed concentrate and it didn't faze them. Leg wraps help some.
Cheryl
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Monday, Mar 13, 2006 - 7:49 pm:
Ella, I've been using EquiSpot during tick season for the past 3 years on my Clyde mare (notice I didn't say fly season) and, knock on wood, have never found a live tick. I've found dead ones in her feathers and tail so it would seem that the spot-on repellent is doing some good.
To combat the biting insects, a fly mask with ears and pre-turnout spraying with Repel-X, Bug Block or Deep Woods Off is used.
During the worst part of fly season, we also switch turnout to nights and keep the horses in the barn with fans on during the day.
I was ankle deep in mud tonight when I was bringing the horses in which means bug season isn't too far away. Thanks for the reminder to stock up on this year's arsenal!
D.
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 8:00 am:
D,
You are adding the Repel-X or other spray with the EquiSpot and not having any problem with chemical reactions. That is good to hear. I would like to use the EquiSpot but didn't want to remove my options for spraying them to ride.
Also,
I have had a bad time with horses getting eye infections from the sweaty masks that have gathered dirt. What do any of you do to keep the masks clean. Do you do a nightly wash or something else?
Ella
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 8:11 am:
Hmmm tough questions about mixing fly repellents and there are no real "known" answers. The spot treatments are very potent pyrethrins and so are many of the OTC horse sprays. I would think mixing them may result in toxicity. On the other hand Off is not related to pyrethrins so it is hard to figure how it might cause problems. D's experience backs this up. I like those with higher concentrations like the Deep Woods type.
DrO
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 9:54 am:
Thanks Dr. O,
I think I will try the spot on this year and then use the Deep Woods Off for trail riding. I don't think my regular sprays have done much by the end of the day. At least the spot on should stay on rather than sweat off. I've got to figure if the Off is created for people it can't do too much damage to a horse!
Any thoughts about keeping fly masks clean?
It is great to have this many people to bounce thoughts off of.
Thank you all!
Ella
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 7:06 pm:
We use the washing machine.
DrO
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 8:41 pm:
My 2 cents worth...skin so soft mixed with citronella oil has really helped and I only need spray once every 3 days. I have a whole fly program... fly catchers (the kind with the green frog logo, found at valleyvet.com,) fly tapes, fly predators, and a non-toxic feed-through powder I add to their feed each day. I HATE FLIES! We have an almost fly free zone which is quite an accomplishment as we are only one acre separated from a facility that has 50 horses with a major fly problem.
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:05 pm:
Ella, before putting the whole amount of spot-on repellent on your horse(s), I suggest you put a small amount on a test area to see if there is a reaction.
I clean the fly masks with water and a soft grooming brush but when they're really dirty, they go in the washing machine.
D.
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 8:22 am:
Ilona,
What is the name of the feed through powder?
Thanks,
Ella
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 10:14 am:
I remember a couple of years ago, there was a feed thru that everyone said was safe, I almost tried it, then it was announced it wasn't so safe.
Frankly, I am a little scared to try the new one on the market that is labeled 'safe'.
DrO- what are your thoughts on the feed thru fly control?
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 11:58 am:
I use Solitude IGA, Dr O commented on it just a couple of weeks ago. I only have a few flies during the entire fly season. It is expensive, but I don't know about you but it wasn't unusual to spend $15 - $20 a week on horse fly repellent. I'm really happy with it and have already started the girls on their daily dosage for this year.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 12:10 pm:
Can the Solitude IGA be ordered on line?
Thanks,
Cheryl
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 12:11 pm:
Or is there a website for it?
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 2:15 pm:
yes, I just order some the other day. this is the cheapest I've found it.
https://www.livestockconcepts.com/Solitude.html
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Member:
Wgillmor
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 2:28 pm:
I think it is Solitude IGR (not IGA). Here is the Froogle search URL:
https://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=Solitude+IGR&hl=en&btnG=Search
Wiley
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 15, 2006 - 2:41 pm:
Wiley, You're correct, I was thinking off the top of my head. The link I gave above will take you right to the product.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 7:14 am:
Judith - thanks for the link - and Wiley - what a neat web site - had never heard about it.
Cheryl
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 10:34 am:
I am not finding where DrO commented on the feed thru fly control, will someone please direct me.
Thanks,
Chris
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 11:09 am:
Chris,
I've asked Dr O about it last year when I started using it. Then I asked him again about the long term use in Medications>Miscellaneous Drugs>Discussions not covered by above>Long term effect of Solitude IGR. Hope this helps.
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
Judith, thank you very much for directing me and for the web site to order.
I am seriously considering trying it out.
Chris
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 16, 2006 - 8:26 pm:
I have purchased both the feed fly control as well as the EquiSpot. I will start the feed through wormer as soon as it arrives. I will start the spot treatment (with a test first) when they first go out in the field and will be (more likely) exposed to ticks. I will update to let people know how it works.
Thanks for all the interest and help!
Ella
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Member:
Brandi
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Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 2:33 am:
A comment regarding the belly flies--the Horse Journal article that was mentioned above stated that War Paint was the best long-term, though technically not a spot-on, and sort of messy--probably similar to swat. But based on their results, that is what I plan to use for the problem with the flies on the belly. I use feed-through solitude IGR (1st year), predators (more than 5 years), a mister in the barn, and of course fly masks. I had 2 of my 4 horses react badly to spot-ons (severe itching), so do test your horse first, I didn't find that they worked all that well. And one last thing--don't waste a dime on the "Zero bug zone" bags of liquid--they DO NOT work. What a waste of $$!! Or should I say $$$$$$$$$!
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Mar 17, 2006 - 6:40 pm:
Just a fair warning for anyone who uses the fly control product that people use mostly in cattle barns. I can't remember the name of it, but it is a yellow granulated product, people put it in window sills, or leave the open container around to ward off flys. One of my clients had their puppy at a feed lot, it got into the product, and before it could make it to the vet, in 20 minutes it was dead. It attacks the neurological system, and immediately killed this sweet dog. If you or anyone is using this product, please watch for the dogs. I am sure it could not possibly be good for horses.
Very sad
suz
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 1:38 pm:
Need help not with flys but with tiny pale gnats that turn pink after biting horses!! They swarm horses so bad; face ,legs, midline, flanks, any surface they can reach. I use swat, gnat away ,Tri Tech spray and anything else I can think of but we seem to be losing the war!! When they bite me it hurts and itches like mad, the poor horses are just swarmmed!! HELP HELP Cindy
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 2:45 pm:
Cindy,
Have you tried any of the previous mentioned products/sprays? If it's not too hot/humid where you are, you might purchase a Bucas fly sheet that is made to keep gnats off also. Do a search or www.Bucas.com. If that doesn't work E-mail me privately, as I have the info at home.
My previous horse was really bothered by gnats, and I used a combination water, apple cider vinegar and a bit of Lavendar oil.
Good luck,
Shirl
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 6:32 pm:
The creamy, natural product "G'nat Away" helps with gnats though it does wash off in the rain. Also, the wipe on sheets that you can purchase in the sports or camping department that contain a high amount of DEET are helpful. You can purchase fly sheets that are very tight and will keep the gnats out of wherever they cover, but in my experience they also hold in heat when the mesh is that small, which can be a problem depending upon your climate.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:39 am:
For more information on fly, including gnats, control see Care for Horses » Management & Procedures » Controlling Houseflies and Biting Flies.
DrO
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:15 pm:
Thanks guys! yup tried Gnat away it works for very short time (hour) tried their spray and it did not.We are very hot here 100 for days and I have trouble keeping masks let alone sheets! These bugs are so bad they can cause a 4 horse stampede! Lavendar oil and apple vinegar have not tried.We've done skin so soft and most of everything out there, some have showed promise but caused hives.Feel as if I'm turning horses into toxic waste along with myself! Dr. O read all your articles before asking for help.These small white buggers aren't mention anywhere! Keep ideas coming my gang just knows help is out there!! Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:54 am:
Without knowing exactly what these bugs are cindy, more specific recommendations cannot be ruled out, but even if we knew the genus and specie, the recommendations are likely to be exactly the same as for other biting gnats or midges.
DrO
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:59 am:
The product called "War Paint" has good staying power but is somewhat unsightly and inconvenient on your horse if you are riding very often, because the staying power is so good! It also caused some hair loss on my guys (not hives, rash etc.), but so does insect exposure. You might want to try that one. I've also found that putting MTG on my horses faces seems to help keep some bugs away (it has sulphur in it) but it can also cause some sun sensitivity so is best applied at night only and you would probably have to add sun block on sun-sensitive skin if used very often. If you use MTG put on disposable gloves and follow the directions. I use cotton to apply it, but I suppose a small sponge would work too. I have thought bugs are bad where I live but your problem sounds even worse!
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 8:50 pm:
www.countrysupply.com has the 2 pound container of Solitude IGR for $29.95 (64 days), 6 pounds for 79.95 (192 days), 20 pounds (640 days) for $244.95-shipping is free for an order $49.00 or over.
I have used this product since April and I like it. I notice a difference in the house and stable fly population (less).
I am wondering...if you use a "feed through" fly control, is it true that Fly Predators won't work because what they eat is already destroyed by the chemical in the feed through?
I have used Tri-Tec (does NOT work for 14 days), the Dawn, vinegar, and water recipe (works well), Bronco Gold (seems to be the best for me for the price). Farnam's roll-on is my favorite for the face and ears. Dr. O's suggestion of Deep Woods OFF was great and it does the job for horse and rider-I just wish it came in large bottles!
Ella, I take my fly mask (Cashel's Crusader with ears and long nose-LOVE IT) and wash it in a bucket of water and CITRONELLA shampoo every other night. I rinse it well with water, leave it to dry overnight (I don't leave the mask on at night). It gets clean, smells good and seems to help keep the bugs from swarming around the mask and his head. I let it soak while I do barn chores, use a brush on heavily soiled areas-and voila!-clean mask for the following day. Once every 2 weeks or so, I wash it in my washing machine-using a fabric softener keeps it pliable.
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 10:45 am:
I have been using the IGR since before fly season started. It is amazing how the fly population has dwindled here. Not near the flies I have had to deal w/ in the past.
We are extremely dry tho, dryer than I ever remember- would that affect the fly population also?
I have been ordering the IGR thru a company called Livestock Concepts. It is the cheapest I have found at $243.00 for the 20lb bucket.
Chris
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 9:28 pm:
Checked out Solitude IGR and it refers to flys not gnats and I also use fly predators (wonderful tiny critters) tried war paint too many horses to cover! Does IGR work on other pests ?? Flies are few ,biting white gnat creatures are millions!! Going to try cider vinegar and skin so soft...keep info coming my small herd is VERY grateful.... Cindy
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 11:46 pm:
Where are you Cindy? Here in south alabama my 6 horse herd has been driven into a stampede about once a month by whatever buggers are breeding most vigorously at the time. I just go straight for the deep-woods OFF for all of us on those worst times. I also put generous amounts of the pink SWAT inside ears and on the belly midline to good effect. Do you have the same problem if you have them in stalls?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 8:05 am:
Gnats are a type of fly Cindy often referred to as a "midge" when they bite. But the fly predators are not effective against any of the species of biting flies and midges, with the possible exception of stable flies. This and the effectiveness of products like Solitude and Skin So Soft are also explained in the article I reference above.
DrO
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 6:21 pm:
Stacy I'm in se washington state,scrub desert, and we use a lot of swat also except my husband screams when I use pink stuff on HIS horse but it does work wish they did a spray!!! Dr O I know fly predators don't work on these guys but they seem to hold face flies and others in check!Have read stories about bad reactions to "deet" products so leary of those?? Re-read articles Dr.O and everything there we have done twice over it is just a bad year for us and was hoping there was something I had missed??!! Cindy
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 9:58 pm:
Members, please excuse this post. Cindy, please e-mail me at fargo@aspeedynet.net. I think we might be related. I live at George, in Washington state. EO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 6:43 am:
We have had reports of reactions to all fly products cindy. From a safety standpoint the FDA approves DEET products for human use on the skin but they do not approve human pyrethroids products except for application to the clothes. The reason is the pyrethroids are a neurotoxin and also classified as a potential carcinogen. From a safety standpoint my guess is DEET is safer and there is no doubt about its greatly increased efficacy.
DrO
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 7:12 am:
I have used Deet on my horse for ages. Then I read an article on how toxic it was to cats and dogs and I got very worried and stopped using it. Now I think I will go back to it knowing that horses are fine with it. Wonder why its so toxic to cats and dogs?
Katrina
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 8:52 am:
On your posting I went looking for such cases Katrina and though the toxicity has been studied and some cases were referred to in those studies I could not find any indication of excessive sensitivity of dogs and cats to DEET. In cats it does seem considerable less safe however. Very large quantities (2 to 10 grams) caused death in cats when applied dermally. When 75 grams of DEET were applied to the skin in horses had no effect. Certainly the slower transport through the skin of a much thicker layer of skin is a factor to decrease toxicity and also the increased dilution because of the larger volume to skin surface area would be a factor.
DrO
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 8:57 am:
I bet it's because cats lick their entire body to keep clean and therefore could ingest it, more so than horses.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 8:58 am:
Whoaa....another big (and perhaps most important) factor that just popped into my head is that cats and dogs lick themselves excessively Katrina particularly if you spray something on them. They would receive a substantial oral dose following application to the skin. I will bet my DVM that is the reason this and many other products applied to the skin might show increase toxicity with cats and dogs.
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 9:39 am:
Hi Cindy,
SWAT makes a clear version as well. I know this because my husband won't put pink stuff on his horse either!
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 12:30 pm:
Debbie, yes we use the clear stuff most of the time but sometimes one just can't resist! You should have seen him when my purple saddle came!! The spot on stuff is lethal to cats and our girls do such a good job keeping mice under control can't risk them! Shirley your recipe seems to be working great THANK YOU Cindy
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 1:51 pm:
Shirley-
What amounts of vinegar, water and lavender oil do you use? Where do you purchase the lavender oil?
How often do you need to spray?
Thanks in advance!
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 5:43 pm:
Hi DJ,
1 C. white vinegar, 1 C. Avon SSS, 1 Cup water, and one or two T. of either Lavendar Oil or Eucalypts oil (sp).
When I had Sierra she had allergies horrible, and she was sprayed a couple times a day or as needed. She was boarded with a friend and I think she did it once a day though that all depends on how bad the situation is. Once a day might work. All I know it gave Sierra relief and she smelled good too!! :o)
Thankful that so far Sedona isn't bothered, and it's such a relief.
You can purchase either of the oils at a Vitamin Store, Health Food Store, etc.
Let me know if it works for you and good luck.
Shirl
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 6:27 pm:
DJ,
The other day I sprayed 2 of our horses with Deep Woods Off, and 2 with my home made mixture. The horses were in the stalls for the day, and the flies were terrible inside even.
The horses with the mix I made did a better job than the Off! Too make sure I was doing a fair comparision, I did 1 horse on the west side of the barn with Off, one with homemade, and did the same on the east side of the barn. (the stalls on the west seem be worse for flies for some reason)
I use 2 cups Apple Cidar Vinegar, 2/3 cup Dawn, (the blue basic Dawn) and a mixture of the following oils: Eucalyptus, Cintronella, Lemon, Tea Tree, Cedarwood. I fill the rest of my sprayer with water then. It's the big sprayer that you pump to spray, not sure on the size but I can check.
Seems to last just as long as the store bought stuff for horses.
A few years ago I had bought some dried garlic, Wendals brand I think. My horses wouldn't eat it, so I spread it in the stalls. I didn't see many flies after that! DrO, though, thought I had a "unique" environment for that to work, so who knows??
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 6:51 pm:
Thanks Dr O for looking that up. I know I read it in at least 2 places cant remember where. Yes it does make sense about the licking. All I know what I read was never use it on dogs and cats. So I wont. But then you can not always believe what you read in this case I was thinking better be safe than sorry. I love the spraying of deet and My horse. I spray us together before a ride as the bugs near the water in the woods are horrendous and they hurt. I usually hose him off when I get back and don't respray as it only lasts a few hours anyway. Its those deer flies that I hate they hurt so bad. Regular flies don't bother me after all the flies in America are pee wee compared to the big ones in aus land. I do use the natural stuff as mentioned above on occasion and it helps a little. It does smell good but its expensive. When ticks are bad I will spray my horse again after I get back. He gets west Nile shots so I am not as worried about mosquitoes, maybe I should. I already got Lyme as did my dog. We both caught it in time. I had my horse tested twice he has high titers but shows no signs so I am not worried.
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 11:52 pm:
Shirley-thanks for the info! I'll let you know how it goes!
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 12:03 am:
Angie-
How much of the oils do you use? I tried a Dawn recipe-I thought it made my horse feel a bit sticky (it didn't contain as much vinegar or any oils). I want to try your's and Shirley's. I do like the Skin So Soft product. I wonder if any of the oils in your recipe is in SSS? Thanks for the info. Oh, let me know what size your sprayer is.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 11:50 am:
You are welcome Katrina but it looks like cp beat me to the punch there on why cats are particularly susceptible. Good job cp!
DrO
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 1:06 am:
Angie-
Could you tell me an approximate amount to use per oil? DrOps, teaspoon, tablespoon? I found all of the oils, plus pennyroyal, and lavender at a new store called "No Common Scents".
Also, what size spray bottle do you use?
Thanks for your help.
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 10:32 am:
DJ,
Don't use pennyroyal on a pregnant horse. It causes abortions in humans
Here is a quick recipe I use on myself and my horses all the time.
20 DrOps Eucalyptus oil
20 DrOps Cedarwood oil
20 DrOps of Lavender oil
10 DrOps Tea Tree oil
10 DrOps Geranium oil
You can use 2 cups of distilled water or vinegar to make a spray. Or if you have time and feel like it on a low heat add:
2 oz. carrier oil (such as canola, apricot kernel, etc) and add a couple to tablespoons of beeswax let the beeswax melt, add the essential oils and mix put this is a 4 oz container this will make it a salve. This stays on and lasts longer.
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 1:43 pm:
All,
I just wanted to warn folks that lavender is illegal to use in the USEq.
Alicia
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 1:45 pm:
Dr. O,
What is safe for pregnant mares? I was using flicks, but it has pennyroyal, so I will no longer be using it.
Alicia
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 2:00 pm:
Alicia,
I had no idea that lavender had been banned! Do you happen to know why? I use aromatherapy on myself, but by no means a horse specialist. I think that one of our users from Europe could help us with this one. They have been using aromatherapy with their horses for years now. Maybe someone there can give use a recommend for a good book, knows someone or recommend a website. I'm really intested in this kind of thing, and will be doing it anyway for my girls.
I would be willing to do the formulations, testing and find the best deals for the essential oils for those interested.
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 2:19 pm:
Judith,
No idea. I just happened to be looking at the banned substance list on the official webs site and saw it there. The reason it stuck with me is because I had just attended a show where they were giving free samples of a liniment with lavender oil, which I thought smelled so nice. Obviously, not many folks realize it is not allowed!
Alicia
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 3:35 pm:
Alicia,
I wonder if someone was trying to use is as a calming substance and had their horse ingest a ton of it? It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone else. I can't imagine how 20 DrOps of oil used in 16oz of water mist could be considered abusive....O well I guess we have to keep everyone honest.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 7:56 am:
There are no studies in horses Alicia. DEET has no known adverse effects in pregnant women when used as directed however:
CMAJ • August 5, 2003; 169 (3)
DEET-based insect repellents: safety implications for children and pregnant and lactating women
Gideon Koren, Doreen Matsui and Benoit Bailey
From the Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology, Hospital for Sick Children and University of Toronto, Toronto, Ont. (Koren); the Division of Clinical Pharmacology, Children's Hospital of Western Ontario and University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. (Matsui); and the Divisions of Emergency Medicine and of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology, Hôpital Ste-Justine and University de Montréal, Montréal, Que. (Bailey)
We found no human studies of exposure to DEET in the first trimester. However, the very high dose administered orally in the animal study suggests that DEET is safe when used as recommended. The CDC has advised that pregnant women take precautions to reduce their risk of WNV infection and other arboviral infections by avoiding mosquito bites and using protective clothing and DEET-based repellents.18 There is no evidence that the use of DEET by pregnant or lactating women poses a health hazard to unborn babies or children who are breast-feeding.
DEET-based insect repellents are relatively safe when used as recommended. The suggestion that young children are more prone than adults to the neurotoxic effects of DEET is not supported by critical evaluation of existing evidence. Non-DEET-based insect repellents are available, but based on a one-time application comparison, a product containing 10% DEET will provide a longer period of protection (3 hours) than any other repellent currently available in Canada.
DrO
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 9:34 am:
Dr. O.,
Thanks, but I should have mentioned before, Lilly breaks out when I put deet on her, I tried already a year or so ago. She gets big hives and freaks out and actually broke away from me the only time I tried it on her.
So, I guess I will still be resorting to something else. What about pyrethrin (I know I spelled it wrong)?
I am going to mix up some of the dawn / vinegar stuff in the mean time, but I did order some of the marigold stuff.
Alicia
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 6:45 pm:
DJ and Alicia,
Here's my recipe. Sorry I don't always read every post, I see you asked for this.
2 cups of Apple Cidar Vinegar,
2/3 cup Dawn,
2 cups water.
about 1/4 tsp each: ( I don't measure too seriously, probably 20 DrOps like posted above)
Texas Cedarwood Oil
Lemon Grass Oil
Eucalyptus Oil
Tea Tree Oil
Citronella Oil
I have a 40 oz pump sprayer I bought at Wal Mart, green top, Home & Garden Sprayer. Lasts longer than the ones out of horse catalogs; I usually buy 2 every year to have a spare.
If your horse is sensitive, try just one oil at a time, like the Eucalyptus first.
Eucalyptus is what you wash bedding in if you want to control dust mites for allergies.
Tea Tree stinks but is antiseptic in nature.
Cedarwood seems to repel, like a cedar closet does.
I also use a Yard Fogger to spray the stalls right after cleaning and before I put any feed or water in them.
If the Dawn is causing any problems, try buying some Vegetable Glycerine at a health food store. It also helps the spray to "cling" which is what I think the Dawn does.
And I dump a few "Plops" of Apple Cidar Vinegar in the water tank also.
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 11:13 pm:
Angie- (you too, Judith-everyone actually)-
Thank you! Gosh, I had no idea about these natural oils...I am a type A personality...got any that would keep me low keyed? My employees would love you for it! LOL! (I don't drink because I get deathly ill-I need a calming agent without losing control of my faculties).
What does the apple cider vinegar do in the water tank? Do the horses seem to mind the odor, or the change in taste? If it's already posted here, sorry, I missed it!
I just mixed up a batch. I don't think the Tea Tree stinks. I used Ohio (I think) Cedarwood Oil-Y'ALL think that will work? 
I really do think it's wonderful how everyone helps, and supports one another on HA. I look forward to reading everyone's advice, opinions, etc., everyday.
DJ
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 8:21 am:
Pyrethrins and all this other stuff have no residual activity in test after test after test. After that I suggest the management factors we outline in the article on fly management.
DrO
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:21 am:
Did everyone know that Lemon Eucalyptus (Eucalyptus citriodora) has been recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to repel mosquitoes, deer ticks and no-see-ums. The regular Eucalyptus is (Eucalyptus globulus). The cost is approximately the same, but the Lemon is harder to find.
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New Member:
Barbju
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:22 am:
I am looking forward to trying this concoction on my horses. Flies are terrible this year in So. California. I just ordered the ingredients from this website:
https://www.herbspro.com/c/essentialoils.htm
It was the only one I could find that had all of them, wanted to minimize shipping cost.
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Member:
Sonoita
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 3:31 pm:
Whole Foods has the lemon eucalyptus and the other oils. I used catnip also but then my cats started attacking my legs and I do not think I will be using that anymore since a mountain loin has been spotted close by.
Happy Trails,
Wanda
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 6:30 am:
Since 2003 there have been several reports of lemon eucalyptus oil having properties better than pyrethrins and in the reports it is implied comparable activity to DEET at higher concentrations at repelling mosquitoes, ticks, stable flies, and midges on humans. Usually the oils have been experimented with at 40% to 75% of a 100% concentration or extracts of these oils have been experimented with. Typically the oils are diluted in coconut oil. I have also seen studies where lemon eucalyptus has significant phytotoxic principles and has potential as a herbicide.
I have not seen any safety studies or a practical solution for its use Judith, does CDC have a recommended method of application? But neither have I heard of any adverse reactions in animals but there are many plant oils that are irritating or even toxic.
DrO
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Member:
Jgordo03
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 2:09 pm:
DrO,
I’m not finding any toxicity or epidemiological studies on r. p-menthane-3 8 diol in horses. I did notice that you wrote that 40%, 75% and 100% concentration of the oils were used in the experiments. I agree that essential oils can be harmful, I use a half of a teaspoon of essential oil to 1 cup of carrier oil or water when using Lemon Eucalyptus or any other essential oil on animals that is 1/96th concentration. I agree that testing on animals would be great, unfortunately you know as well as I do that the large animal pharmaceutical companies don’t have any real incentive to do so. I only use this when I’m working my horses, or trail riding. I use Solitude IGR feed thru for daily fly maintenance so my need is much less then most folks who are looking for a twice a day spray to use. I just wish they would find something that would work on humans like Advantage that repels the ticks for a few weeks at a time.
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