|
|
Discussion on Can a horse be this sensitive?
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 12:16 am:
a bunch of us were sitting around the fire pit (typical weekend around here) discussing how crazy one of the guys horses had recently become. pawing, pinning his ears, charging, just generally acting like a dipwad. i've rode this horse and could not believe it. he's a gentle, smart, and quite enjoyable to ride, appy. i got up, and decided to see this for myself. i walked into the stall area. YUP! sure has heck... his brain is in another galaxy somewhere! i'm new to horses, but it was obvious that something was not right.
we resumed our burger and beer consumption and later i heard the owner of the horse say "last week i started feeding 50% pellets. the hay prices and quality here lately are killing me". i casually mentioned that i feed the same brand pellets and read there is some molasses in them. my friends jaw DrOpped. he ran to the feed barn to read the bag himself. he said that he had no idea there was molasses in them and his horse can not tolerate even smelling the stuff.
after 4 days back on all alfalfa (no pellets), his horse is nearly back to normal. coincidence?
now i start thinking. i recently changed out half my horses alfalfa to timothy hay to DrOp his protein intake (thinking this might cool him down a bit). from the day i got him (4 months ago) i had half his ration in pellets also. basically i was feeding half hay, half pellets twice daily.
i did see some improvement, however i *ASSUMED* (dumb newbie here) that the small amount of molasses required to hold the pellets together (is that what its used for?) would not be a big deal.
thinking back, my beast has always been a bit A.D.D. and hyper. but the 99% good days and his personality keeps making me forgive him (read: i'm a sucker for a horse). i've been crow-hopped off a couple times, and the other day he went complete runaway on me. a one rein stop had NO effect. as i reached over to try a stop in the other direction i lost my balance and came off. THUMP! my friends that witnessed this asked if that was the first time i had ever been in a full run on a horse. after emptying my skiveys and tending to the cut on my eyelid i replied "yup... did i get my 8 seconds?". its kinda funny now, but i understand that i could have been killed.
is it possible that i have had my horse on a 4 month high? do horses get that sensitive to molasses? i'm going to feel really guilty if i've been essentially drugging him then wondering why he acts like beavis and butthead.
thanks for taking the time! your opinions are appreciated!
doug
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 6:43 am:
It is not the molasses Doug as much as it is:
1) the total energy content
2) the relaxation that horses get from chewing real unprocessed forage
3) the contentment horses feel with the roughage in the bowel, giving a feeling of fullness
DrO
|
Member:
Cassey
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 6:53 am:
Hi Doug,
I have heard other people say their horses are sensitive to different food. Some horses seem to get "crazy" on alfalfa, others don't tolerate molasses, I bet the list goes on and on. I don't know if it's ever been tested scientifically, but I guess the bottom line for all horse owners...get to know your own horse, listen to what they tell you. And, I've come to realize that all horses will have "good" days and "bad" days, when judged by our standards. Maybe those crazy, high energy days are good for them; bad for us and our skivvies. Many of the "natural horsemanship" trainers recommend a few moments of ground work before every single ride...to judge what side of the corral your horse woke up on today, work out some of the crazies and get them thinking instead of reacting.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 4:18 pm:
My two cents...
Yes...My guy is particularly sensitive to high energy diets...He's an absolute ANGEL without alfalpha, but put him on it and ALL senses are heightened beyond reason! (;) He needs a LOT of work when on alfalpha, and since I work full time and can't ride nearly as often as I'd like... grass hay it tis!! No problems whatsoever...he is also an extremely easy keeper (hard to keep him NOT fat (;) so limited grain...just enough for a snack to get his supplements. I've had his bloodwork done recently and the vet said not to change a thing in his diet, his levels are perfect, another reason not to go the alfalpha route.
Hope this helps!
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 6:22 pm:
thanks for the replies, everyone!
4 days ago i had eliminated the pellets (and of course increased the alfalfa to compensate). if i build up the nerve, i'll attempt a ride this coming weekend. hopefully i see a difference.
Dr. O: he definately eats the hay more slowly than the pellets, and there is more forage stuffs in the hay than the pellets (i think)... so your points 2 and 3 should see some great benefit.
point 1 might be tough. unless i buy a lower quality or maybe more corse alfalfa, i'm not sure how to DrOp that energy (and protein) and maintain a safe nutrient/forage/etc balance.
timothy is near $15/100# bail and he really hates it. i tried timothy in the morning and alfalfa in the evening. he simply waits till evening. then uses the timothy for bedding mixing it doesnt work either. he's smarter than that and his lips/teeth can pick every peice of timothy out.
he's also so picky, i've come out in the morning and seen nothing but stems left in the bin! not sure how he gets every leaf off, but he does.
orchard is even worse. he wont even take one bite. basically gives me the "kiss my what?" look.
i havent tried burmuda yet. might be an option. he has tried to eat my lawn when we leave for a ride.
the gal at the feed store said to change his hay, i should basically MAKE in eat it. feed him nothing but what i want him to eat and when he gets hungry enough he'll eat. that sounds like a terrible thing to do to an animal to me.
my plan right now is (1) no pellets, all alfalfa... and (2) forget the trail until we have more arena time (hopefully with a trainer) and i feel better about his brakes and brain activity level.
if this plan fails, uh... i'm not sure what to do next. when he has a good day, we communicate great and have great fun. on his beavis days, its better to untack him and preserve my well being. i'm not experienced enough to ride a nutcase. it sucks being the only person in the group that sometimes cant simply tack up and go 
if he eats it, and i can have safer rides, i'll pay whatever it costs!
thanks again!
doug
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 6:37 pm:
D. Berry... i agree completely. some ground work and lunging is always in order. its a nice way to warm up the horse (mind and body) and do a reality check on his mental state
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 9:26 pm:
Have you tried Dengie hay, Not pure alfala the mix it has only 9% protein. I mix it with my horses grain Strategy to get his roughage. as well as bailed grass hay It does have a bit of molasis though. What about beet pulp? I also use that when he needs a few extra calories and fluids. I have a high energy horse like you and I find that walking for half hour doing cones, backing, halting, stop, start etc calms him more than lunging(lunging is good though). It brings him back to reality and helps him pay attention without thinking that going fast and being silly is not an option. Everyone used to say I was crazy not to lunge before \I rode. My horse never gets tired so wearing him out is not an option. hes an arab. go go go.But I swear the other works much better for me. If a horse is in good condition they will have extra energy. Thats a great thing. The trick is to show them that even though they feel good, they must relax and listen to you.
|
Member:
Paul303
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003 - 11:27 pm:
The exercise must correspond to the feed. If he gets any high energy feed, you owe it to your horse to lunge him until the edge is off and he is ready to listen to you. It's not fair to take a horse out when he's full of beans and nervous energy and expect him to listen only to you. Before he attempts the trails, he should be settled enough to be able to listen to you. This cannot be accomplished until your cues are so imbedded in him that his responses to your cues are second nature. When you sit down and back and quietly say "whoa", his response should be immediate. To accomplish this, you ride or lunge him in the arena until his most favorite word in the world is "whoa". It's not fair to take a horse out on the trails until you have trained all your cues into him. If he doesn't know your cues backwards and forwards in the arena, then he shouldn't be expected to respond out on the exciting, threatening and distracting world of the trails.
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 1:57 am:
Hi Katrina,
i havent heard of Dengie hay before but i'll snoop around the feed stores. i have seen beet pulp in something like 50 pound bags. i'll look into it. seams like someone i know also uses beet pulp to suppliment feeding pure pellets. so much to learn... and so fast... thanks! by the way, my horse is an arab cross, most likely anglo. as best anyone can guess, he's crossed with a TB (worst of both worlds i've heard - ugh!). we rescued him and he was quite thin when we brought him home. he hadnt been ridden for months (possibly a couple years). now the vet says he looks great.
he has a good home now, he is a wonderful addition to the family, and i'm going to help him become a good trail horse and i'm hoping to get my own skills up to par also. its like a personal mission now
Elizibeth,
thanks for the input! i try my best to work with him at least 3 to 4 times per week. sometimes its in the pen, sometimes riding in the pen, sometimes its just spending quality time with him. i ALWAYS lunge before riding; maybe not long enough though. we work on "WALK" "WHOA" "TROT" "WALK" WHOA" "TROT" "WHOA" (you get the idea). he is only rewarded when "correct" (95% of the time). rewards are the typical "good boy!" and a rub, or sometimes a chunk of carrot. we also sometimes work on sidepassing/stepping, backing, turns, eights and patterns around cones, etc, but those are perfect 99.999% of the time; i dont really have concerns there.
also, most of the trail rides were GREAT, other than the runaway event. the crow hopping events were at home. he does get the "im heading toward home" overdrive mode, but i can deal with that... its just a little bouncy at times. maybe i just need to further learn to identify when he is "back on earth" and ready to ride.
most of the time on the trail he is "alert" and constantly looking around (where the other horses are head down and generally looking kinda "dull" but he's (mentally) stable. its just those off days i guess. so far i've noticed that he doesnt mind being in front, back, or anywhere in the middle of the group. no major spooks yet, he's ok with going through bamboo tunnels, and has no problem crossing a 4 foot deep flowing river (he'll be the first one in if i ask him to). he does however act a little cold backed, slightly barnsour (this is improving with every ride!), and generally high strung. some days in the pen i can just tell he's "out to lunch".
i'm doing what i can on the ground as i learn more, but figured there might be something to this feed/sweets/metabolism thing that i can do somewhat easily to help in our efforts.
thanks again to both of you!!!
doug
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 6:38 am:
Hello Douglas,
Perhaps it is time for you and your horse to get some lessons together to help you deal with these Beavis days? Alternatively a horse better suited to your needs might make you happier.
Your horse can learn to eat other feed stuffs you just have to withdraw all alternatives and be patient.
rO
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 11:13 am:
Dr. O
as soon as i find a trainer in my area i will be there immediately. that was the plan from day one and still is.
i am keeping an eye out for another horse. have been for a couple months. seams like prices have gone up for the summer, but i'll find one someday.
this guy is here to stay though. my wife and two young sons are too attached to him. i hold out hope that as time, my skills, and training go by, we will meld in nicely together.
|
Member:
Magulas
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 11:32 am:
Doug,
I am also in SoCal, have a 17 hh TWH (Draft size)
for sale just in case you might consider. If interested, email fmagu@earthlink.net
|
Member:
Tkranch
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 12:35 pm:
Doug,
You might try halfing his alfalfa and replace it with timothy or orchard. Only replace what he eats and leave the rest. If he is getting half his rations he might eventually get hungry enough to start on the other hay. You need a feed bin so he can't use his food for bedding, and eventually they will eat the stems (they aren't poisinous - they just aren't as easy to eat and don't taste as good as leaves). He doesn't want the other hays because they aren't as sweet and tasty. It would be like giving your kid only pizza because it is his favorite and he refused to eat anything else.
It will be worth the effort getting him off alfalfa - for your and his sake.
kat
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 1:40 pm:
Frank: email sent. thanks!
Kat: halfing the alfalfa and replacing with it with timothy is exactly what i had done. it started building up in the bin and around the stall. i stopped the morning timothy and added only the evening alfalfa. the timothy still remained. as best i could tell, he was eating VERY little of it. i also tried orchard (this was worse). i did this for about 5-7 days and noticed a slight weight loss. this scared me. i wasnt sure how "hungry" to let him get. should i have let it go longer? what about tapering off the alfalfa where he only had other hay remaining? sounds kinda harsh, but maybe its not.
i definately understand your analogy though. i have kids... they are sometimes easier to reason with than the horse
thanks!!!
doug
|
Member:
Tkranch
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003 - 4:37 pm:
Doug,
I would continue with the program of cutting alfalfa back. If he is a hard keeper you might consider giving him some beet pulp with oil to keep the weight on till he gets settled with grass hay. He won't let himself starve with food in front of him. I know it is hard not to spoil these creatures we love them so much.
Kat
|
New Member:
Spyke555
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 12:30 pm:
Doug- we had an incident just like yours last year with our foundation q/h. He went "bezerk" and white eyed- to make a long story short he was tying up and his muscles vs his food energy supply was definitely out of whack. After the intial medication and bute, he was not himself and we switched his diet as if he had PSSM and within 3 weeks he was back to sanity and a year later is better, more fluid and healthier than he has ever been. We switched to NO OATS, NO Sweetfeed and went to Buckeye pellets (25% fat), alfalfa cubes topped with corn oil and free choice hay. No wasted carbs and we supplement with selenium/vitamin E as antitoxant- his muscles, his apperance and his other previously un-diagnosed symptoms have all improved and he is very happy! Just wanted to let you know that it does not usually happen over night but is cumlative. But as far as sweet feed/molasses- I have a TWH that gets crazy if he smells it! So sugar does have immediate effects (like coffee/caffein on us)
Terri
|
Member:
Jlmule
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 2:59 pm:
Doug, as far as feeling bad or guilty about making your horse eat what you want him to, liken it to giving a diabetic child all the candy and ice cream he wants because he likes it better than vegetables. Your kindness could kill him and you too. Get him on "trash hay", make all the necessary supplements available to him and soon you will be rejoicing your "new" horse.
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 3:11 pm:
Kat,
Now that he's been off pellets for nearly a week, i'm noticing that he is beginning to nibble on some of the old remaining timothy thats still in the stall (after the alfalfa has been woofed down). there might just be something to the "he will learn to like it".
i still have a half a bail of the timothy from my prior changover efforts, so i think i'll toss a thin flake out there for an afternoon snack and see if it will start vanishing. he seams to finish his morning flake (7am feeding) by noon or 1pm, so by 3 or 4 he might be getting hungry again. if this works, i'll attempt the conversion processes again.
it seams to me that as long as he's getting all the needed nutrients and forage and stuff, it must be better to have less protein (something around 10% rather than 17% or more). the alfalfa lately has been very green, sweet smelling, and rich. maybe with that way nice alfalfa, and the pellets containing mollases, the timothy was like trying to feed my son brussel sprouts or broccoli with his pizza
i'll keep ya posted
doug
|
Member:
Socaldug
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 26, 2003 - 3:26 pm:
Terri,
thanks for the info! i'm glad to hear your horse is a happy camper now! that tying up stuff sounds pretty uncomfortable for the animals (i just went and read up on it)
my beast gets 1/2 cup of canola oil 2X/day on his flakes. i read that its the least palletable, but he really likes it. its also the cheapest around here in large quantities.
this was recommended to me over a month ago. something about a calming effect and getting calories from fats rather than other stuff. im not sure if its the oil or the summer temps (or both), but his coat is looking REAL nice lately!
|
Member:
Presario
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 30, 2003 - 10:29 am:
Just a couple things I wanted to add - it's not the protein content of hay (ie alfalfa) that normally makes a horse "hot", but the increased calories. Alfalfa is generally 1,000 calories per pound, grass hays generally 800 calories per pound.
Also, I beg to differ on "owing it to the horse to lunge him until the edge is off". Feeding more calories to a horse than he needs either results in a fat horse for those normally on the quiet side, or a "high" horse. Lunging a high horse until he's quite makes him fitter, which over time requires more lunging to take the edge off, which makes him even more fit, and you get into a never-ending cycle. Proper diet and training are necessaryhere, not running him in circles on a regular basis. Not to mention the wear and tear he's getting on his joints with the constant lunging.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 30, 2003 - 6:43 pm:
I concur it is the calories and not the protein Jordana but do not completley agree with your assesment of lunging. But I do think the reason this is helpful is misunderstood.
Though there are a few horses that just need to get that first buck out, most horses need a little reminder of who is supposed to be in control. For these horses, and for those of us too old to go flying, it is best to issue that reminder be issued on the end of the lunge line. I have seen horses that get hyped on the end of a lunge line which is something we can take up some other time. However for the majority and particularly: - young horses
- those that have not seen a bridle for awhile
- those just out of a stall
controled lunging is a good reminder of what walk, trot, canter and that most important gait of all, "whoa," means.
DrO
|
Member:
Presario
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 30, 2003 - 9:08 pm:
Oh, no doubt a lunge is sometimes a good thing to ensure the safety of the rider and I have no problem with occasionally (or even often for a while) putting a horse out there to remind him to mind ME and pay attention to ME and not goodness-knows what out there. To me, those lunge sessions are more mental exercise than physical. I was just addressing the catch-22 when the horse is getting too much food (or not enough turnout, or not enough proper training to respect the handler/rider, or whatever) and constantly has to be lunged to take the edge off, which makes him fitter, which then means it takes more lunging to take the edge off, etc.
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 30, 2003 - 9:30 pm:
Jordana, My thoughts exactly. trying to make my fit horse tired, is impossible. Lunging warms him up.
Katrina
|
|
|
