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  Discussion on Tail Lifting?
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Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2007 - 12:54 pm:

I have a coming 4 TB gelding who has all of a sudden begun lifting his tail all the time, when standing, when walking, when eating...pretty much at any time during any activity....he is not producing gas, and is not going to the bathroom. Any reason for a horse to do this? Is he trying to relieve pressure in his back somewhere? He does have an itchy tail head...could that be related? He has a history of pain in the sacra iliac region. I've never had one do this before...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 9:17 am:

I would bet on the pruritis (itchiness) but it is just a guess. Do you know why the tail is itchy?
DrO
Member:
amara

Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 2:24 pm:

prob. itchiness like Dr. O said, BUT... one of our drafts started doing this-for no reason at all, and then (over a period of several weeks) he started acting like his gut was uncomfortable... we started treating him for ulcers and the tail went back to normal... a little while ago when he had a flare up the tail went back up, but went right back down as soon as we treated his flareup.. dont know if it helps, or if our draft was just really weird!

good luck!
Member:
cmatexas

Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 11:10 pm:

Our mare did that, started last October occasionally, and progressed until it was always crooked. Then her gaits got a little rough. We took her to the chiropractor, and he had to put it back in place. It sounded like a gunshot!!!! But, tail was fixed immediately, and her ride is back to awesome. Just an idea. (I NEVER believed that "junk" would work, but we found a guy here that is a real miracle worker. We went to 2 others that were useless, but he has fixed several sore spots on our horses)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 9:37 pm:

Hello Michelle,
What did the chiropracter believe to be the problem and what did he to fix it?
DrO
Member:
cmatexas

Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 10:39 pm:

Honestly, he thought she was having ovary problems, not tail/back problems, b/c he didn't find any sore spots around the base of her tail or up her spine. But, when he gave it a pretty good tug, just to prove to us it wasn't a problem, it popped back into place. Sounded HORRIBLE!!! But it's back straight now. Said in all his years, he had seen horses who carried their tails off to the side as a sign of back problems, but never actually saw a tail itself out of place. Tail is straight now, and she has smoothed back out. We never found any other sore spots in her back, just a very rough ride and a little cranky during saddling. She is an old Western Pleasure horse that is usually smooth as glass. Wish we'd had a video of it!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:00 am:

All right everyone, give those crooked tails a pretty good tug before you do anything else, it is cheap and offers a fast remedy but please be careful you do not get kicked!

Seriously I am uncertain what happened with Michele's horse. A subluxated caudal vertebrae would be very painful and a fairly easy diagnosis (one I have never seen nor read about) so what they were looking at? There are both surgeries (cutting the tendons) and procedures (alcohol blocks) used on the tail which can cause transient or permanent disfigurement certainly muscle spasms are possible. Hmmm...is it possible such a spasm could be corrected by pulling straight back on the tail....yes it is possible and have a pop, much as your knuckles would pop, from the vertebral facets too.
DrO
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:26 am:

Thank you for the input...I haven't checked mail so am just catching up with these posts. Dr. O, not sure what's causing the itchiness...seems to be a yearly thing. Had problems with it last spring as well. Rubs all the time...I have looked for crawling things but don't see any. Maybe I should try some Gold Bond powder? (Haven't dealt with this health issue before with my other horses.) He is super sensitive to bites, though...will break out in welts that look like hives when bitten. He nailed me yesterday kicking at flies...it was the first day they were really biting. He just loses his mind...I've never observed a horse this sensitive to biting insects!

Over the weekend, the indidence of tail lifting seemed to decrease...I'll try treating him for the itching problem and see if that fixes it completely.

Also, he did seem a little "off" on the day I noticed it the most...left his feed, stood with head down for a few minutes, went back and finished...whatever it was resolved itself. Thanks...will keep all the above in mind.
Member:
cmatexas

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:55 am:

Terri - been there, done that with the severe fly allergies. Check out Overview of Hair Loss and Skin Irritation. Took a trip to A&M to get it under control, but it is working.

Dr. O - in this part of Texas, Equine Chiropractic care is not unusual with all the ropers and cutting horses around here. That being said, we don't ever really tell anyone we use a chiropractor for the horses. He is also an excellent farrier, and an great source for information on horse nutrition. He literally works from the feet up, and the inside out, to fix problems, and we have had undeniable success with him. But.......the science teacher in me is always skeptical. We took our horse with a very sore back to 2 other chiropractors on the advice of more experienced horse persons, and wasted several hundred dollars for nothing but a good horse massage and quack advice. So, Terri, be VERY careful before you let someone twist and pop your horse. I would hate for someone to get a horse hurt, or even just waste good money. After I posted our experience, I thought maybe it might be better to not share that idea. I'm not sure what or who is available in other parts of the country. :-)
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 12:19 pm:

Michelle, thanks for the guidance. Jules is a product of a very happy chiro experience. I got him off the track last spring, sore in the hips. Took him to an excellent vet/chiro doc who adjusted him twice (talk about pops!!!) over a 6-week period. He has been pain free since then, but am thinking I may take him in the next few months just for good measure. I had no opinion on chiro/acupuncunture before that experience. However, the doc explained what the problem was (thought he had gotten out of whack possibly from getting run into from behind or falling backwards hard) after performing a lameness exam, addressed it through adjustment and acupuncture, and the horse has been markedly improved since. I am a believer. It really, really has made a difference.
Member:
amara

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 10:00 pm:

michelle, where in texas are you?

i recently had a chiro out to work on one of my horses... i've had very good success with very good chiro's... this guy was a doc before he became chiro...wish i'd taken pictures because there was a visible (positive) change in the shape of my horse's hips after he was done...he also said a few tail stretches would be a good idea... of course, he also recommends a good roll in a sandy area!...talk about cheap chiro!...
Member:
cmatexas

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 8:43 am:

Melissa - we are just down the interstate from you in Fairfield!! Our chiro, Ross, is in New Summerfield.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 9:15 am:

Hello Everyone,
Equine chiropractic is not a well developed veterinary science and has some specialized diagnostics and procedures that have little in the way of science to support them. Without radiography it should be noted there is no similarity to human medicine.

There have been reported benefits in specific cases to chiropractic but I believe the best description of equine chiropractic adjustment at this time should be looked at as deep massage. Melissa, I must say there is nothing in the horse that can be manually adjusted to "change the shape of the hips". The horse may have stood differently but the idea of adjusting the shape of the hips or even relation of the hips to the rest of the horse is just not anatomically feasible, other than the possible effect of causing swelling in the soft tissues.

I have been watching chiropractics for over 20 years. I have worked for upper level hunter and dressage barns that in the pusuit of the ever better score or placment that have had chiropractics in and out sometimes adjusting 20 plus horses at a time. Critically examining the horses I have not seen the remarkable results reported here and usually find barns do not keep up the regular use of the procedure over time.
DrO
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 11:39 am:

I can only attest to what we experienced...and it did make a profound difference with this particular horse. More than what I expected.
Member:
amara

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 9:27 pm:

i KNEW you were going to say that Dr. O (*LOL*)..
that's ok, i still think you're great.. we can agree to disagree...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 6:48 am:

Thanks Melissa,
Just doing my job trying to keep you guys thinking.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 8:28 am:

Keep us thinking (and learning), huh? COOL.

I pull on my horses tails too, I figure it's like if we were to hang upside down in one of those inversion things. It does feel good (I don't have one, but I've hung around upside down on my brothers) Of course it's just using gravity the opposite way for us, not the same as for a horse.

I am having a vet out next month to do teeth and possibly chiropractic adjustments. I am still undecided if I will PAY to have her do some adjustments or not. I think I will do some probing and poking and try some other things before she comes and helps drain the checking account more.

DrO,

Regarding your last paragraph: Did those horses have any obvious problems? Or were they just adjustments hoping to tweak things a little in hopes of improving performance?
Member:
terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 9:19 am:

I had an idea that Dr. O. would have some comments too, and that's ok. I don't think chiropractic is the answer to every problem. Neither does Dr. Anderson. His approach is this: "...to integrate these forms of medicine (chiro and accupuncture) with traditional lameness work. He has found the combination to be helpful in assessing and treating the equine athlete."

He mentioned that chiropractic work without the benefit of a veterinary background can cause more problems that it solves. I personally would not consider using an "equine massage therapist" without a DVM somewhere in the title.

Incidentally...when I took Jules to see Dr. Anderson, I went with the intention of locating the source of the problem and addressing it...not with the intention of getting him adjusted. It just so happened that chiro/accupuncture was the recommended treatment, and it has had long-lasting benefits. I agree that people should be very careful about chiropractic in general.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 9:15 am:

Angie, over the years it has been a mixed bag, often the problems being addressed were vague performance problems but sometimes real lameness issues were being addressed. I do not remember a case where the normal course was changed.

The problem Terri, is which problems are chiropractic and acupuncture effective for, if any. You have noted improvement in problems following the use of these modalities but, "when the cock crows the sun rises" and this happens millions of times daily. What is important to determine is causality. Relying on personal experience is the lowest form of evidence as can easily be demonstrated by the thousands of years of terrible medicine based on personal experience.

I am sorry to keep beating this drum but by the posting above I don't feel I am getting through. I never ask anyone to stop doing what they thought was working for them (unless dangerous) no matter my opinion but I do require postings on this board to be critiqued through the prism of evidence based medicine. One should note that though chiropractic looks fairly safe there have been some permanent injuries reported following its use.
DrO
Member:
mleeb

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 - 6:01 pm:

Dr. O, just wondering if there are any new bits of info to report on the field of equine chiropractic? I found it very interesting that there was no solid scientific/medical proof of it's results, particularly as I have had such dramatic results with treatment of my horses, as have many of the people I've spoken with. Horses have been major players in the development of the world as we know it -- imagine thousands of years of farming and travelling without a horse -- and continue to contribute in a big way, and yet there are so many things about them that no one has sat down and researched.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 25, 2008 - 5:10 pm:

Hello Michelle,
I have left your post in my inbox trying to decide how to handle this. I think it is time we put together an article on equine chiropractic manipulation and I hope to have an article up by early next week. I will post here when I get it up including the most recent research.
DrO
Member:
jones

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 7:14 pm:

I know this conversation is old but I thought Id throw my 2 cents of experience into the chat for anyone looking at it in the future.

I got my TWH out of a rescue when he was 6 y/o.
For 3 months I noticed that his
sacrum (if that is what it is called in a horse)was tilted to the left (higher on the right side of his hip bones than on his left) He didn't seem off in any other way but even if I unweighted his right rear leg, the position of the sacrum stayed the same in relation to the pelvic bone on the left.
My girlfriend recommended a massage therapist. The therapist "adjusted him" by rocking him side to side in the back several times and the position of the sacrum changed to level. It remained level for 2 years.
This change in position happened again several years later when he was involved in an accident where another horse and he fell together and the other horse rolled over on top of him pining his legs.
His sacrum was tilted and he would not weight his right hind when standing still.
I am a physical therapist and do many sacral releases on people with quite good results, so I just emulated what the massage therapist had done on him and it straightened out again.
A year later he was very off and was squaring off the toes of both his hind feet and visually I could see he was not DrOpping his right hip when he moved his right hind forward, he just looked so stiff. I had a vet Chiropractor come out from Tucson, he was highly recommended. He did quite a bit of adjusting and my horse began standing square in the front for the first time in months. His right hind started DrOpping and his toes are no longer squaring off in the back.
It has been 8 months since that adjustment.
I wish I had had him out so much sooner.

As a PT I know that radiographically no positional fault is detectable in the SI (sacroilliac)joint in a human when someone presents with "SI" pain, however I have 17 years of experience in correcting "positional faults" that lead to long lasting pain relief, especially when combined with lots of education and core strengthening. In people there is a difference in bony alignment via palpation. In my horse I could see the alignment of his pelvis change and the motion of his hips became symetrical while walking.

That being said I think the source of my horse's "offness" is a sore hock that causes him to carry himself in ways that are not beneficial to his back. I am committed to addressing the source of his issues but sometimes a little symptom relief goes a long way.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 8:17 am:

Hello jones,
The statement about pathology is the most illuminative I believe and so I will paraphrase it to refer to horses: in these uneven horses there is no "positional" fault in the si joint. And to continue along this line of reasoning the tilt in the horse's pelvis' comes from the relative amount of extension in each leg. If one leg is held straighter, the leg more weighted, the pelvis tilts up on that side. In the case of when such changes may accompany lameness the tilt is likely to be do to lameness further down the leg on the unweighted (tilted down) side. Though I have known horses that habitually rested one leg while weighting the other for years with no evidence of pain of any kind.

As to whether such behavior might result in a painful condition that is addressed by massage and adjustments remains a open question in my mind. I have not seen these problem horses nor the results from chiropractic you have.
DrO
Member:
jones

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 12:19 am:

Hi Dr. O,

I'm sure that is true. My horse's sacrum was tiled to the left(down to the left)when he was standing square and also when his right leg was unweighted, not what would be expected.
This slanting (after the initial correction) did not return until his accident (2years later) and again this was visible to all who looked while he was standing square. And it was quite visible when it was corrected, that it was indeed corrected.

I asked my vet for any research on equine chiropractic he might have. He gave me this article from the
Equine Veterinary Journal.
Equine Vet. J. (2008)40 (2) 153-159
doi 10..2746/042516408x250292
The main author is C.B. Gomez Alvarez.
I have it as a PDF.

The key in using equine chiropractic effectively may be that one may expect changes in a horse with clinically diagnosed back issues vs expecting changes in a horse that is "off" for an unknown reason.

In Physical Therapy, manipulation of the lumbar spine is only indicated when 3 of 4 clinically relevant, subjectively reported symptoms are present. It is not indicated in all forms of back or radicular pain and statistically measured beneficial results are produced when you only manipulate the people with the required symptoms.
If only horses could speak English!

If you are interested in reading the study, let me know what you think of it.
Thank you,
Lesley
Member:
jones

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 10:04 am:

Oops, the study name might come in handy too.

"Effect of Chiropractic Manipulations on the Kinematics of back and limbs in horses with Clinically Diagnosed Back Problems"
Lesley
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 1:36 pm:

Thanks jones, as a life long subscriber and regular reader I have the article and remember my initial reading of it. I thought the conclusion of the article summed up my thoughts on the subject closely but not exactly, the article states about the significance of this study:
Chiropractic manipulations elicit slight but significant changes in thoracolumbar and pelvic kinematics. Some of the changes are likely to be beneficial, but clinical trials with increased numbers of horses and longer follow-up are needed.

I am uncertain why the authors chose the word "likely" as they created slight but measurable changes in the range of motion of the vertebral segments, some increased and some decreased. It is unclear to me these were improvements either way. I would note that lameness causes increases in the range of motion of the cervical vertebral segments. If the increase represents a good thing the decrease in some measurements after 3 weeks of adjustment should be worrisome. I have other concerns, the lack of standardization as chiropractic is performed in the field for instance. All said there may be a place for this type manipulation but just as stated in this 2008 study we don't know yet.
DrO
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