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Discussion on WDL
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 12:43 pm:
Dr. O asked this question of my vet and he had not heard of this but thought it good for discussion. Since WDL responds to fresh air better than most meds what if one used a small bottle of pure oxygen and"sprayed" this on the affected area or rigged a boot to expose hoof to oxygen ?? Tried reading all the info on this sight concerning white line and am now cross eyed and suffering blurred vision  so if it is already discussed I missed it.??? Cindy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 6:18 pm:
Boy cindy, if that is a hit, let me know, Levi is doing ok, but i found a little suspicious spot on his good foot. I dug it out with my little curette, and dumped betadine in it. Hoping it was just sole sluffing off under his shoe, as it was inside of the shoe area?
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 7:28 pm:
Have no idea but as I talked with my vet he was pondering! Since fresh air is the best why not an inflatable boot that could be pumped full of oxygen ???? My mustang has been fighting a tiny spot of WDL on the front toes of each foot nothing like your battle for Levi! I've even thought about the re-breathers that divers use since they make less noise ??? My husband says I think in reverse polish so who knows Cindy
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 2:33 am:
Susan thanks for seeing that my reverse polish wdl really did mean WLD ! Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 7:41 am:
I don't think it is the oxygen that is responsible for the improved healing seen in well exposed WLD cases but instead exposure guarantees removal of all the diseased tissue and prevents trapping of dirt and moisture.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 11:05 am:
I was hoping for better?! If anyone has seen anything along this line jump in ... I've emailed WSU so maybe they will agree with you Dr. O. It just seems if one opens the hoof wall chasing WLD the more dirt and junk can get in ? A faster healing time would help! Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 12:30 pm:
I don't know how you would remove infected tissue you cannot see. I don't know how you keep tissue you cannot see clean and dry. Removing dead infected tissue and keeping it clean is the mainstay of treating any infection. However in this case since the infected horn is dead, there is no "healing" as would be thought of with infected living tissue. Healing of the defect is defined as having the wall grow out without further spread of infection.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 3:05 pm:
Dr.O don't think you understood my query. I completely agree with the course of action presently taken I am just seeking/hoping for an aid to speed the regrowth of a health hoof. Since the emphasis has been on opening up and exposing WLD to air as well as cleaning out I just wanted to know if pure oxygenated air would help ?? Cindy
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 4:12 pm:
Hi Cindy, your question got me thinking...
If the bacteria that causes WLD is anaerobic, then it would seem like pure oxygenated air would help; infact, would get rid of the bacteria. If the bacteria isn't anaerobic, then I don't see how it would help except that it would maybe help keep the area dry and clean. However, I think the oxygen has to be inhaled and go through the lungs and into the blood stream before it would really help, and to do that you'd need a hyperbaric (sp?) chamber. A hyperbaric treatment would also increase blood supply to the area which might help. After my wheels turned, that's my thought.
Dr.O.? I'm curious.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 5:54 pm:
Thanks Sara that is a good part of what I was wondering. Since there does not seem to be a definitive cause to WLD, my vet said pick one they all show up on tests, if the hyperbaric chamber is all that could used then it is a nevermind but if it is anaerobic then maybe? Like I said sometimes my thought pattern comes far left field. Cindy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 6:54 pm:
Hey Cindy, it is creative thought patterns that have gotten us to the moon, cured cancers, etc. etc. etc.
It is so frustrating, as I don't know how Levi contracted the fungus/1
I just cleaned up thier dry yard, and was wanting to ask Dr. O ???
I had been putting hay up on a huge rock all winter. When I scraped away the rotting hay, it was like humus, rally good mushroomy growing like muck. Of course Levi would have stood there to eat all winter, the food hound he is. Is this possibly where he could have gotten the stuff?
suz
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 9:08 pm:
Wondered that myself Susan, Whiskey had no troubles til I finally got Mt. Manure hauled away! The guy did an OK job but at the very end he spread the very last part across the dry lot and of course it rained for the next 2 days and Whiskey stands in puddles like a kid ??? I hope for all of us a break thru will come to help the fight hence the late night questions! Both my vet and farries have said they have seen increasing cases of WLD. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 8:19 am:
Cindy when you said, "It just seems if one opens the hoof wall chasing WLD the more dirt and junk can get in?" it did not sound like you were supporting what is currently a very successful method for treating this disease.
Concerning the a(n)erobic nature of the organism, most often fungi are implicated and I an not aware of any anerobic fungi.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 11:43 am:
Statement made to emphasis the need/desire to speed the end of WLD and help promote closure of hoof wall. So what you are saying is it is a fungus not bacteria related.?? My vet said he thought large part was due to bacteria invading a comprimised hoof wall, hence my question and now confusion. Dr O all I was trying to do was ask if it might help, did not mean to step on toes! I was NEVER questioning the methods now used am sorry you took it that way. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 1:14 pm:
cindy, I am addressing the statements in your post with no offense taken at all. Many people read these forums and it is important to correct what I see as questionable or incorrect information. It's just what I do.
For more on the organisms associated with WLD see the article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » White Line Disease or Onchyomycosis.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 2:08 pm:
Good because this was just one of those midnight ponderings and I asked the question with no intent to offend. Have read everything this site and many others have to offer on WLD and what I found was no conculsive evidence from anywhere as to just exactly what causes WLD so wondered about a new weapon to add to the arsenal. So I ask a ??? thinking maybe someone in their quest to help their horse had tried something different that helped/worked?! Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 2:41 pm:
Taken from the article referenced above: For a long time it was uncertain what the cause was but several studies have concluded that this is a disease caused by a fungal infection of the horn and referred to as onychomycosis. The main fungus associated with onychomycosis in the studies have been Genus Scedosporium and Pseudallescheria.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 6:32 pm:
So if a fungal infection is too blame then are we growing petrie dishes of the stuff and learning how to kill it? My vet was here last week and because of Whiskeys slight case, which I do not want to expand, we talked at length about WLD and he repeated bacteria and fungus together were the problem and as soon as I find the article in a recent mag. I'll print the quote from a renowned vet who said the same thing ??? So now is there anything new on the horizon or do we just keep doing what we're doing ? Several of the recent articles and my vet said the cases of WLD are increasing .Do you have a theroy as to why that is happening? Yes I was the little kid always asking why now I'm an old lady still asking why. Cindy
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 9:15 pm:
This is the article that got me questioning. the Horse / May 2007. Bill Barker DVM./Ric Redden DVM
"There is no clear pathogenesis for WDL but there has to be some mechanical stress in the hoof wall for this to occur
the best treatment starts with support of the foot. Do not resect without a plan for support!
Exposure appears to be the best treatmemt. Apparently whatever's causing
this likes a low oxygen enviroment.
No medicines on the market have been proven effective.
Reserch is much needed for this disease.
Treatment is effective, if early and aggressive."
view article at www.TheHorse.com/ema.aspx?1d=9254
It was the mention of low oxygen that prompted my original question.? Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 7:48 am:
Dr. Redden can be quite hyperbolic when it comes to talking about the foot and though I respect his opinion, having consulted with him on maybe half a dozen cases and had him out for a demonstration to our local vet and farrier community back in the 80's, I strongly disagree that there are no medications on the market that are effective. Our pages have some well documented advanced cases that have been successfully treated. Once found, opened, and treated as in the article I have never had a case progress beyond where it was found.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2007 - 12:14 pm:
I agree about the meds part altho Pete Ramey claims to have eliminated WLD w/o meds at all! Dr. O I value your opinion very much tis why I come here with my questions, even the midnight ones. Is there a lot of on going research ? So many here are fighting a much bigger battle with WLD than I so it is SO confusing that there are so many DIFFERENT view points on this diease. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 8:37 am:
I find nothing controversial about Pete Ramey's statements and have made similar statements in cases we have discussed elsewhere: it is the removal of infected tissue that is critical. Currently there are only two cases out of the over 10,000 horses represented by Horseadvice.com and as far as I can tell both are being successfully treated.
The reason for the lack of research is probably the lack of perceived need, despite Ric's hyperbolic statement (God love him) this is a pretty easy to learn to diagnose and treat disease once you understand the principles, though treatment can be prolonged as it goes no faster than the hoof grows.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2007 - 11:24 am:
My farrier spotted Whiskey's early on so I have great hope. My vet made the statement that it may never go away and that prompted me to ask and read as much as I could about WLD. Sometimes if you color out side the lines you will find the unexpected solution. If one uses hoof growth product does it help or hurt ie growth could conceal pocket of infection? For once I would be greatful for my husband's detail orientated mind. My thoughts go everywhere because I want it fixed now. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 6:55 am:
Cindy that is what I have been telling you: you can fix this now. Follow the instructions in the article and the infection will be gone. If you give hoof supplements do you really think your hoof walls are going to start growing so fast that it might cover up the infection? Concerning their use, the indications for hoof supplements are the same as non-infected feet, check out the article on poor quality horn for those ideas.
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Monday, May 7, 2007 - 11:26 am:
We did have it completely gone but then it returned 3 months later but again very small area! No didn't think any magic and rapid hoof growth would happen with supplement but did WONDER about a missed pocket of infection within new hoof growth that would go unnoticed. Another midnight pondering! Have never used hoof supplement so just a question as there are volumes of differening info on these also! Plus my vets statement about it,WLD, never going away in some cases was a bother. Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 7:09 am:
cindy is this a return in the same spot (a place you missed) or a new spot (new infection)?
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:11 am:
Same spot and my farrier found it both times?? I wear trifocales so when hanging upside down it is not easy! But my farrier had said it was all gone then last month it was back he is here Thursday we will see!?? Cindy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 11:23 am:
They are not thoroughly debriding out the diseased tissue and though Pete says you can get by without treating, I still recommend you treat and observe carefully for new areas or suspicious spots, remember the cancer surgeons creed: "when in doubt cut it out".
DrO
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2007 - 3:00 pm:
We are using iodine(sp) spray Kopertox plus clorax the spot is no bigger than a nickle at the end of each front hoof. That is the trouble with my glasses my hands are usually red & green and smelly Cindy
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