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Discussion on Rats Again! Part 2 - Consequences of Belly-Up In Water Buckets?
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 - 8:00 am:
Now here's a terrific topic to mull over while you're having your Sunday morning coffee. . . .
With winter upon us, I am beginning my annual rodent battle. As soon as we clean out the hay/feed room, I will lay down my little green discs of Purina Assault (see original discussion in this forum "Rats Again!"), & the problem will be solved.
However, in the immediate meantime, I have been finding little rodents bellyup in water buckets nearly every single morning, & am wondering what sort of health risk this is posing. Everyone has either two or even three water buckets, & I do dump, scrub & refill buckets daily, so these little corpses aren't in there for an immense amount of time, but still.
Yesterday morning, for instance, I found a dead baby rat in a virtually empty water bucket. Now I know it didn't DrOwn in what was left in the bucket, so the horse must have drank the water, even though she had two other full buckets.
I am concerned & wondering if horses can get salmonella, leptospirosis, or other uglies from this situation.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 - 11:53 am:
Hi Bonita, Don't know where you live, but I'd worry about first is what diseases can be transmitted to humans from rodent urine & feces (lots).
Lymphocytic choriomeningitis (aseptic meningitis), hantavirus, ugh, the list goes on.
See the CDC website & do a search for rat diseases...
https://www.cdc.gov/search.htm
As an aside, 1 "ugly" I found in a bucket of water outside when I had gone away for an overnight vacation... a dead tarantula - talk about poisoned water as it leeched out of it - yick!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 - 2:34 pm:
LIke you, Bonita, I'd worry about what the horses could catch-like botulisim-fr. dead animals in their water. We sometimes find dead birds or ground squirrels in our field water tanks. We've put floating boards in the tanks and haven't seen any since. Kind of hard to do in their water buckets. I'd guess if you're catching the little bodies right away and scrub out the buckets with clorox once a day you're o.k.
Penner is right about the human deseases-esp. here in the Southwest. If you live where it's dry, be sure and wear a face mask and gloves while cleaning where these mice and rats live.
btw-how about getting a couple of barn cats? We had mice when we first moved here, and have none now with the help of a couple of good cats.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 5:59 am:
While it is hard to know what would be OK, I agree due diligence is required to be sure these buckets are frequently checked and the dead removed to keep from fouling the water.
If your water is not chlorinated you might consider adding regular household bleach to the buckets. Going to the Chlorox site and looking under Natural Disaster Preparedness they recommend for humans 16 DrOps of bleach to the gallon. This is approxiamtely 3 mls. Two important considerations: - This will dissapate over the next 24 to 48 hours.
- Some horses may turn there nose up at the odd smell: watch to be sure horses will drink the water.
DrO
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 8:08 am:
Thanks guys. Like I said, once we do our winter hay room cleanup, I will put down my good old Purina Assault & know from past experience that the problem will cease. All my cats are purely housecats, & although we do have several of the neighbors' cats prowling around, they don't seem to make much of a dent in the rodent population. They do, however, seem to have quite a taste for birds - grrrr
Since I am home most of the time, buckets & troughs get checked frequently. Dumped, scrubbed, & refilled when stalls are done, & checked & topped up several times during the day. A few times I've even come upon rodents still alive & dogpaddling around. Have to admit that I'm a soft touch & just dump them outside. I guess I'm a true hypocrite there - don't mind killing them; just don't want to do it "personally" .
When cleaning out the hay room, we do wear those little filter face masks because of all the dust, otherwise, as someone else posted, it would probably be a "Hanta For Everyone" situation, what with all the deer mice we have around here. Luckily, the hay room also has a large window, so ventilation is pretty good.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 11:30 am:
I know about being the soft touch! When we first moved here and still had mice (lots of them) I found a nest of young mice cozy in the shavings in a corner of a stall. I carefully cleaned around them for weeks until they were gone. I'm glad our cats take care of them for me! They get rid of the gophers, too. I guess they're all too fat to climb trees and go after the birds.
I'm not familiar with the Assault. Is it safe for other animals, or is it basically warfarin?
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 12:41 pm:
No Sara, it's not warfarin. I don't use warfarin anymore. To me, it's slow-acting & sort of cruel (not that any form of poisoning isn't). Many years ago when I raised fancy chickens, the only thing available was warfarin-based products, & the sight of all these poor little critters staggering around in their internal-bleeding death throes was too much for me to handle.
Purina Assault is a wonderful product. Any feed store that handles Purina feeds should be able to get it for you if they don't already carry it. It comes in 2 forms - small pellets & large (2") discs. I use the discs, as I think the pellets are just too small to keep track of.
I do not know the exact safety of the product, so treat it as I would any other poisonous substance - CAREFULLY! You can't just throw it around. But - it is VERY fast & effective - the best for pest control & very economical. We apply it just twice a year & considering that we are on farmland in the middle of nowhere, we are extremely pest-free.
What we do is every 6 months (sometimes sooner depending on current workloads) we completely strip & sweep our hay/feed room. Put down fresh tarps (since it's a dirt floor), & lay down one canister of Assault discs on top of the tarps. Then put down our wood pallets on top of which go our hay & straw.
Within days - all rodents are GONE. Completely. And with no smell or staggering bodies around. I can't recommend the stuff enough. I am an organic farmer & so don't normally advocate the use of poisons - but this stuff to me seems to be the most humane way to go because it's so fast-acting.
I have posted a lot more about it back on my original "Rats" post. Had to resort to poison when rats had done so much tunneling in my barn, my horses were in danger of breaking their legs in their own stalls!
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 1:46 pm:
Hi I cannot find any site or information on purina assault, and no dealers near me are you sure they are still making it ?
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 3:53 pm:
My local Purina feed dealer here in Culpeper, VA, still has a full floor display of the stuff, but I e-mailed Purina via their equine website & asked about it. Will let you know if/when they respond.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 9:58 pm:
Thanks for the info. I'd never heard of it. I don't need it presently, but might in the future. If we have problems with rodents, it's mice in the house (not the barn.) Our house cats wouldn't attack a mouse unless it tried to share their dinner-probably not even then, as there's plenty for all.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 - 2:23 am:
I have actually completely given up on using rat bait except to deal with the ones that get in the roof of the house. The little beggars just seem to thrive on it.
I was just lucky enough that one of my stray-cats-turned-housecats turned out to be an ace ratter. He heads off to the feeDrOom about 4 am, deals death to anything there and then waits for me to feed the horses at 6 before coming in to his breakfast... Bless... I think there should be research/a breeding programme for cats and terriers that have that ratkilling streak.
(Bonita - I also have 2 completely USELESS cats that run away from rats - trouble is you can't tell which ones are going to be any good until they are adults).
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 - 10:16 am:
Imogene, you are right about the research!
My Jack Russell terrier nails birds, rabbits & squirrels, but not the big pack rats (that dig big 5 foot (1.5 meter) diameter dirt piles).
These rats are big, 14 inches. I tried a BB gun on them, but it doesn't work. I shot one with a BB, but it just bounced off its fur.It stood up, gave me a dirty look, & didn't even leave!
Here are some good rat recipes:
https://www.roofrats.org/roof_rat_recipes.htm
BTW, this is just a joke! It is a website devoted to a parody on human wars against rats, when a very exclusive neighborhood in my state was having roof rats feasting on their expensive citrus trees!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 - 11:51 am:
I think those pack rats aren't really rats, but are related to Picas, but am not sure. They are hard to get rid of. They live in same place for generations and pile continues to grow as they keep bringing more stuff home. They steal shiney stuff, hoard all kinds of stuff as well as food. Some people think they are benificial, actually. I think the only way to get rid of them is to destroy their nest. You might talk to Fish & Game. In some areas they'll trap them for you. I had a friend who had a huge nest under her cabin.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 - 7:46 pm:
Sara, interesting observations.
What is a Pica?
Why do some people consider them beneficial?
The only scientific thing I know about pack rats is that since they are desert dwellers, they have the best ability of all mammals to concentrate their urine to a very high osmolarity to avoid dehydration (or was it kangaroo rats...) Aren't I just great at trivia??? You should see me at cocktail parties <grin> (just kidding!)
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 - 9:20 pm:
A Pica lives in the western mtns. and is a small rodent (ground squirrel size) that harvests grasses, lays them out on rocks to dry, then stores them in it's burrow for eating during the winter.
I need to read up on Pack Rats more! Someone told me they will eat small rodents, grubs, etc. I don't know this for sure. I do know that archeologists, paleintologists (sp?) like them because they go through their nests and find debris, bits of bone, pottery, etc. that helps them know details about a site.
I didn't know they can concentrate their urine so highly! Tho' I do know that rats/mice in general really have smelly urine. Actually, I would suspect kangaroo rats of this because of the tiny bit of actual fluid they really need and drink. Mostly they get their fluids fr. the vegetation they eat. (like you, I know a lot of basically useless junk!) However, I have trouble remembering stuff I should know. I think it's a brain malfunction of some kind!
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 - 10:30 pm:
Hey Sara, you know, I just might dig up that mound they (rats) made.
My property is locally known to be an old Apache Indian site. My Jack Russell dug up an old piece of pottery 2 years ago, I still have it!
Maybe the pack rats had squandered some things in that mound. I gotta go dig! Or maybe I should let them hang around 1 more year, then dig the mound up. They don't call them pack rats for nuthin'!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 12:41 am:
Maybe you should! No telling what you'll find. I've known people that have found missing watches and ear rings. I think the usual is bottle caps and old bones. But...depending on how old your rats' mound is (are they called middens?) you might find something interesting.
If you live where there are pottery shards, arrowheads, "lithic scatter" go around after the gophers, prarie dogs, badgers, etc. and look at what they've brought to the surface. Sometimes you find neat things.
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 10:46 am:
JANETTE & Sara - I just received an e-mail back from Purina in response to my inquiry re: "Assault".
Apparently, Purina Mills sold off the division that makes Assault to a company called "PM Resources". They said that as far as they know, "Assault" is still being manufactured/sold by this company, & if you need to locate a dealer, you can reach the new company at 1-800-447-5463.
Believe me, this stuff is worth the trouble.
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Member:
Sparky
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 2:24 pm:
Bonita - since it seems the rats are looking for a water source - why don't you put small water containers outside the stalls at rat level for them to drink from for the time being? at least until you can rid yourself of the little vermin. If it is the reason they are searching out the water buckets they may use the smaller more accessable ones instead? who knows the mind of a rat? Anyway just a thought.
Good luck
Janet
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 2:51 pm:
Actually Janet, there are plenty of rat-accessible water sources around here. I have witnessed what happens as far as the buckets go - said rat/mouse runs along the rafters &/or up & down the posts/railings - slips & falls into said bucket.
I was in feeding & had the treat of witnessing this. Apparently they're not the fault-free acrobats we give them credit for.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 3:41 pm:
Maybe they just wanted to practice their "high diving?"
Thanks for the info on the Assult.
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 4:32 pm:
LOL! Quite possibly Sara. Although if they are thinking of trying out for the circus, they are going to be out of luck based on the talent I have seen. . . .
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003 - 9:41 pm:
Now I'm going to kick my two lazy house cats off the sofa and feed them. Then, I think I'll look for PM Resources and Assult on the internet and see if they make small bags of the stuff and if it can be used in the house (under the kitchen sink)
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 5:34 am:
Good luck - I tried searching the net for it yesterday & couldn't come up with anything, although like I said, they must still be making it as my feed store always has a large display with new stock.
I see no reason why you couldn't place it under your kitchen sink. It's very easy stuff to deal with - 2"-3" diameter green waxy discs. They come in two container sizes. I think the small one has 4 or 6 discs; the larger twice that. A little goes a very long way. I put down 6 at a time in my feed room, & they last a good 6-8 months. And I'm sure the rodent population in my feed room is higher than under your kitchen sink - at least I hope so. . . .
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Member:
Kel4s
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 10:27 am:
This website sells the Assault rat bait you are looking for. Hope this helps.
Kellie
https://www.vittetoeinc.com/catalog/accessories.htm
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 10:56 am:
Yes I found that one but it is the granules not the disks and my cats would eat the granules, and the birds would too.
The disks are the ones that I would have to have my geese are worth $500 a breeding pair and my chickens who get into everything are imported from Austraila.
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 11:32 am:
Janette - with any sort of poultry, even with the discs I would be sure to place them safely. What has worked for me in the past has been large pieces of PVC piping - disc inside - with a couple of bricks on top to weight the pipe down. I also had very good luck using a metal garbage can lid, propped up "just" enough for rodent entry. Again with a couple of bricks on top for more stability.
Now I just put them underneath my hay pallets.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 12:26 pm:
The piping suggestion gave me a great idea. We are plagued by what is locally called "chislers" which I think are like a ground squirel. They dig holes in the pastures, burrow through the irrigation ditch banks, etc. Every spring when we start irrigation we flush quite a few out of our irrigation pipes....what a great place to put these discs and get rid of some of them. Thanks!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 1:27 pm:
Hello all,
I haven’t had many critters in the water buckets, but one lady in the barn here has a large trough and had considerable problems with dead floating critters.
She solved the DrOwning problem by tying a 1/2" or 5/8” rope to a brick, put the brick into the water tank and secure the other end of the rope somewhere outside the tank. I’m sure the critters still get in, but with the rope they can get out after their drink. Her horse played with the rope for a couple days but the brick was too heavy for the horse to remove it and soon lost interest.
Some sort of critter control is still needed, but this eliminated the floaters.
Alden
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 1:50 pm:
That's a good idea. Luckily, in the nearly 40 years I have been working with horses, only once did I find anything in an outside trough - a poor gray squirrel.
Maybe I could attach little ladders or dive floats to all of my indoor barn buckets. . . .
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 4:51 pm:
I don't know, if your water is on the warm side you might attract more critters. Your "in house" rats would invite all their relatives, and pretty soon your poor horses would be dodging little mini beach balls and mouse size flippers!
I like the brick in the trough idea, too. But think the floating board would work better where you have birds too.
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Member:
Penner
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 10:03 pm:
All kidding aside (from my previous posts...)
We also have the floating critter problem too in the summer when water is scarce here (birds, squirrels, & rabbits).
I think Alden is onto something & its the big water tanks we have in the stalls (70 gal). I thought these were good as they are deep & keep the water cool even in 117 deg F summer temps (I am not kidding).
So, I am going to try the brick on a string and the floating plank idea too.
Thank you all for the tips!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 11:32 pm:
The brick/rope idea would sure work for the four legged critters. The plank is mainly for birds.
Are you in AZ? (looking at your temps.) I've been totally paranoid about botulism and other deseases since talking with the wranglers at north side of Grand Canyon a couple of summers ago. They lost two or three mules due to botulism from dead crows. I wonder about the bird DrOppings that sometimes fall into the tanks.
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Member:
Sross
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 6:54 pm:
Purina Assault:
A while back we noticed that a rodent had made its way into the house. I, of course, came here and read all about the use of Purina Assault in rat warfare! Found the granules in a small town feed store and brought them home. I placed the box underneath the kitchen sink until I had time to strategically dispense the granules. One night I open up the cabinet and lo and behold! that $#$#$#&*^$ rodent had tunneled into my kitchen cabinet and gnawed his way through the Assault box to get to the yummy tasy goodies inside!!! I was of course absolutely appalled at the thought of a rodent in my kitchen , but how incredibly sweet of the little darling to save me the trouble of having to distribute the granules!
There have been no further incidences.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Dec 12, 2003 - 8:11 am:
Sandra-guess what I'm shopping for today?
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