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Discussion on Ideas please...trying barefoot and it's not going so great...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 11:55 pm:
My horse is starting the barefoot journey...Hind feet are great, it's been a month now with NO lameness, ouchiness...nothing.
However the front shoes came off Saturday. He hurts so bad. When I tried to soak him in epson salts, his legs started shaking, just broke my heart.
Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated. I'm putting the front shoes back on because I can't stand to see him like this. But will try again when I can toughen up his feet FIRST before I take the shoes off again.
Alexa...I noticed in another post that you have a concoction to toughen soles. If I may be so bold, could I have the ingredients for your concoction?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 6:01 am:
Aileen what is it about his feet that are so weak they cause this much pain? We have information on this problem at » Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming and there is a link in there to sole toughener recommendations.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 11:01 am:
Thanks Dr. O,
I wish I knew why he was in so much pain yesterday. He's a bit better today. I read in another post to keep him on soft ground for awhile, and this morning he did take a couple of normal strides with very short strides after. He is still very tentative while turning on his haunches. He's learned to turn on the forehand first before he attempts to move his front legs (not me asking, him just moving around his paddock). He also has his silly attitude back this morning. Am I just being neurotic?
He hasn't had his front shoes off in at least 5 years and maybe 6. Could that be the reason for the extreme pain yesterday?
Is this normal?
I don't believe he was trimmed to short. I do believe he won't stand for soaking, unfortunately. I did give him one tab of bute last night. I don't think I need to do it again.
I have the shoer coming out tomorrow morning and he'll take a look and and we'll discuss it. My vet had said a month ago that my horse was a great candidate for barefoot. He's got great feet, hence my confusion.
I will read the article Dr. O, silly me, I should know better.
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 1:05 pm:
Some thoughts-what kind of trim did he get? Was it just from your farrier or someone certified by some method.
Could you take pictures of the feet from the side and solar views to see what things look like?
Does he have long toes or underrun heels? This can cause some pain during the transition.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 1:30 pm:
Aileen,
Could you post a couple pictures of his front feet? When his shoes came off did he also get trimmend?
Unfortunately not all horses can go barefoot, much depends on genetics, terrain, feed, work load etc. You may have one that falls into the "must have shoes" catagory.
Alden
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Member:
Dartanyn
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 2:21 pm:
Two-Cents here also, went barefoot on my 3 horses after many (6+) years of shoeing due to their harsh location on a rocky mountain ledge. Found that 1) time of year makes a big difference, winter time can be hard on them if the shoes were only removed after soggy grounds show up; as the rough, solid ground helps to toughen them, just like for us walking on cement as opposed to soft grass and building up "callous". 2) length of time left without shoes - my horses did improve after the 2nd cycle of trimming, but always stayed sensitive by nature of their environment. 3) riding them increased the sensitivity by leaps and bounds. To illustrate: try walking over rocky surface as opposed to running over it, then do it with someone piggy back. Hopefully these illustrations help, it helped me weather the initial change; but I admit I am very careful about making the choice to go barefoot unless I know I will not be riding week after week during the winter. But again, that's the environment I have my horses in and not a slight to the benefits of barefooting it. Dawn
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 2:38 pm:
Hello Aileen,
I agree with Dr.O, Leah and Alden. I have a horse with very tough feet but they just don't hold him up in the right places without shoes. He is shod in the front only and this winter with snow and ice is the first that he will be going through with shoes. Perhaps you could have a 3-way conference with the vet and farrier and yourself, or have the farrier get in touch with the vet.
It could be that because your horse has had shoes on for so long that this is a painful transition period. I can understand that it is heartbreaking to see your horse in pain. Been there and done that!
Weather and ground conditions can also change pretty quickly making things a little more difficult to adapt to. Dawn's graphic descriptions are good illustrations. Hope this helps. Susan B.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 2:59 pm:
Just one thought I havent seen posted yet. Make sure the soles are not being trimmed too thin. One important thing for barefooting is keeping the sole a little thicker ... that's my experience anyway. I do my own trimming and seldom trim out the sole. Most stay barefoot except the ones I am working hard or if riding on gravel much. No problems with sore feet to date. Just a thought ... DT
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 6:39 pm:
Thanks Leah,
It keeps saying my pics are too big and I don't have the right software to adjust them. I'll keep trying.
Since he's so much better today, I'm just going to keep him barefoot. I was told that it's cruel to go back and forth and after what I witnessed yesterday, I don't want him to go through that again.
He did canter a couple of steps at turnout...He walks on different surfaces such as rock walkways -- he is noticeably short strided and hesitant, however, in mud, sand and shavings he walks almost normally today - of course still with hesitation but at least I'm not cringing watching him anymore.
I've put Keratex on his hoof wall and Crossopol on his sole. I hope this works!
So yes...I'm a neurotic worrying horsemom. At least you know for sure that I love my pony 
Sorry everyone!
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Member:
Sross
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 6:41 pm:
My guy has been barefoot since before I got him, but he is a bit on the sensitive side and is usually a wee bit ouchy on the front after each trim. Usually I give him a day or two, and he's fine. If he's really ouchy (or if I have to ride in a clinic), I give him a little something for the pain (Buteless) and apply a topical (Hawthorne HoofFreeze). Friends of mine who have recently taken the barefoot plunge (horses with bad feet shod in front for years) had horses initially very ouchy in front, finally decided to buy the Old Macs as recommended by their vet/farrier. Of course, by the time the Old Macs arrived, the horses had toughened up and were moving sound again! 
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 6:49 pm:
Thanks for all your responses.
Alden, yes he was also trimmed. I'll try to get some pics uploaded.
Dawn, thank you. Yes I completely understand *NOW* how this could be happening to the poor guy. I have made sure he has access to all different types of footing in his turnout so he will be able to go where he chooses. I've also been told to spread some hay in different places to get him walking around on these surfaces.
Susan, thank you for understanding. I'm 75% sure he'll be getting shoes on again in the spring, but hopefully he'll be able to make it. I'm measuring for old macs today.
Dennis, I *think* his soles are pretty good...they don't look thin to me anyways. Hopefully I'll get a pic up so you can see.
Thanks again to everyone!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 6:58 pm:
Oh Sandra! Thanks for that bit of info on the macs(;)
Could save me some $$ - I'll wait for a week and see how it goes.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 9:38 pm:
Dennis what about not trimming the soles to get them harder. I just had a new farrier out and he trimmed her soles, now my mare acts like an old woman the day after trimming. She hasn't been ouchy in over a year...
Aileen, don't give up yet.
jojo
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 10:26 pm:
Aileen,
If you are still having trouble with the pictures you can email them to me at auron@htc.net and I can resize and post them for you.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 10:59 pm:
Thanks so much Sharon...I've emailed them to you.
Jojo, I've spoken with my farrier and he said that if he's that much better in one day he should be fine. It just may take awhile before he can be worked again.
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 11:09 pm:
Aileen,
The pictures are small enough to easily post. Unless you tried to post all three to the same topic. Here they are:
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 11:12 pm:
I take that back. This last one did have to have the file size made smaller. Here it is:
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 8:35 am:
joj ... It is my experience that trimming the sole down is a primary function of shoeing i/e developing a nice surface for the shoe. This makes the sole thinner, but not a problem because of the shoes. The soles cushion the blow, especially from rocks, etc. and if too thin, not enough cushion. The problem is that most incorporate this as a part of regular trimming because it does give a nice neat look, but I think it is bad for a barefoot horse. As I stated, I keep most of my horses barefooted and have had no serious problems. DrO or others may have better info or possibly dispute this theory, but it seems to work for me.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 10:48 am:
I'm not sure why you were soaking his feet. It sounds like they need to toughen up, and the soaking would soften them I would think.
Have you tried a sole paint to help toughen them? I have found it helps my horses if they get trimmed to close, or are "ouchy" after first having shoes pulled. Just my "two cents."
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 11:47 am:
Hello Aileen,
Hard to tell by the picture but his feet look too short to me. I’d look for 3 1/8 - 3 3/8” hairline to toe, assuming he is around 1000-1100 lbs. I accept some extra sensitivity in rocky terrain when I’m riding but to be tender in the pasture isn’t right. That also leads me to believe they are too short. I say listen to the horse, put shoes back on and in 8-10 weeks try again. But don’t trim the foot, just balance it and see what happens.
My experience has been the horses that are able to maintain a good foot shed the sole, so removing sole is almost never necessary. The sole that is shedding comes out with a hoof pick while cleaning the foot. I do trim the frog some to make cleaning the foot easier.
I’ve observed a couple farriers around here that like their schedules too much. The horse gets trimmed every 6-8 weeks, if it needs it or not. They also trim like their applying shoes, so it doesn’t take long and the hoof is all trimmed off.
Another thing to consider is how does it benefit the farrier if all our horses are running around without shoes? Driving out for a trim hardly pays for the gas. Of course that wouldn't be very ethical, good thing we never see unethical practices in the horse business.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 11:57 am:
I agree with Alden think they look a bit too short to me, also I will not use a trimmer that insists on taking any sole off unless diseased or damaged in some way.
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Member:
Sparky
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 12:01 pm:
Aileen - just curious as to why Keretex on the wall and Crossapol on the sole?
thanks and good luck
Janet
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 12:04 pm:
I agree, they do look a little short but can't really tell by photos. Good point Alden and Janet, so many people trim the soles just because it seems to be part of the trimming process without really thinking why they do it. Also, the soreness on front only, could indicate sole problem to me since so much weight is supported there. No unethical practices in the horse business here either Alden.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 12:46 pm:
Hello Aileen,
It is a little hard to tell from the picture, but I would lean along the lines from what Alden has so graciously explained above. Another thing that I noticed from the picture is that the angles look good, but I too think that his foot looks a little short. An illustration would be that if you cut your toenails too short and you had all of the callouses scraped off your feet, and then started walking around barefoot on gravelly surfaces your feet would be quite tender. A shoe at this point would replace what the farrier took off, maybe a little too much. I am with Alden on the sole removal, very little. I have seen farriers remove a lot of sole in order to dump the toe. I have also gleaned a lot of good information off of the Sister Farrier Site available here. A question I would like to ask is does your vet and farrier have a working relationship? Is it possible to phone the vet and say what is happening rather than have him/her come out to see?
I think Alden has it bang on and to add some shoes for a couple of months would put your horse right until he has grown some more foot. Next trim should be just balanced. Hope this helps.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 12:56 pm:
Aileen,
You should try walking him briskly on different surfaces, to see where the pain comes from.
Try a hard, very flat surface first, to see what happens without direct pressure on the sole.
Then try dry sand or gravel, which puts maximum pressure on the sole.
If he is lame on all surfaces, I would check his heels and frogs. Light tapping with a hoofpick should show you where the sensitivity comes from.
His heels do look low, but I think a vet would not suggest a horse with underrun heels going barefoot.
Last, are you sure that there is pain and he does not simply hate the new feeling?
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 12:57 pm:
I know nothing about barefoot trimming, but horses that go barefoot on hard ground (ie hard natural wear) never end up with feet that short in normal circumstances, Aileen... so it does look to me as well like the trim was a bit too severe.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 1:13 pm:
One more thought Aileen regarding my thoughts on the sole. In humans, most of weight is on the tough heel and balls of feet, not the tender arch area. When we walk on gravel or whatever, the heels and toes can take quite a bit but the arches get ouchy. Imagine walking flat footed on gravel ... ouch.
If your horse has a combination of triming too short (which makes it walk on its arches .. flat footed if you will) and thin soles, it would mean that it is suffering a "double whammy". Since you appear to be seeing some improvement, I would guess this to be the case. As the hoof wall grows, the toes and heels take more weight, and as the sole grows, it gets a little tougher.
Once again ... Good Luck
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 2:14 pm:
There are some great graphic illustrations going on here and I think Dennis illustrated it very nicely. It is starting to sound like your farrier has trimmed him up in preparation for a shoe. Get them back on until you have some more foot to work with. Hope this helps.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 3:51 pm:
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 3:55 pm:
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 3:57 pm:
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 4:16 pm:
Thank you Sharon for posting my pictures...I was trying to put them all in one post
I have posted two pictures of his sole and also a conformation picture just in case it might help.
Sara, I was soaking him in epsom salts to try to toughen them, not just soaking them in water. But he wouldn't stand for it. I am putting Crossopol on the soles twice a day to toughen them. I'm also putting Keratex hoof hardener on the horn.
Janet, The Keratex *I think* is only supposed to go on the horn, they have another product for the sole, but I didn't want to wait for it to be shipped. So I bought the Crossopol (per my vet)for the sole.
Alden, thank you for your input! He gets shod every five weeks, his feet grow very fast. I understand your thoughts about farriers (;) However, mine is also an endurance rider and really loves horses and his job. He is right there with me that he should at least be able to *try* to go barefoot. If nothing else to give his feet a breather. That being said, I do not believe he gave my horse a barefoot trim, you'll be better able to judge by my new pics. Please give me your input on his sole, I would greatly appreciate it!
Thanks Susan, your input is always valuable to me!
Thank you Christos,
He will NOT walk briskly on gravel, but he will walk (;)
He's not too keen about the decomposed granite floor in the center aisle either...tentative.
Sand and mud...NO problem (;) He even took it upon himself today to throw in a canter and a buck while I was handwalking him, so I put him on a lunge line. I did not ask him to do anything. He did it all by himself: Trot, Canter, GALLOP...screeching around the corners.
Last, are you sure that there is pain and he does not simply hate the new feeling? I have thought about that Christos, but I think it was more like "this is a weird feeling!" Just based on his actions today. He either feels VERY GOOD or he just mad that his feet hurt.(;)
Thank you Dennis...you could be right! Please take a look at the new pics!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 5:32 pm:
Ouch, Aileen,
As much as I can see from the pictures, and, of course, as far as I understand hooves without being a farrier, these ones may hurt a bit even with shoes on.
I have a couple of horses with extremely tough feet, they have been working barefoot for years, and I HAD to shoe them when, due to more riding, their feet got worked down to what I think I see in your pictures. They simply became generally reluctant to work, which was immediately and successfully corrected with shoeing.
The wall looks trimmed flush with the sole in your pictures. You need to have 1-2mm more wall, 3-4 mm if he's going barefoot, for the horse to be happy. And I wouldn't trim the sole so thoroughly, if at all, on a barefoot horse. Well, I don't like trimming the sole at all, except a single thin cut to reveal the white line for reference. But that is for negotiating a lot of rock and gravel in our area, your conditions may allow trimming it.
This hoof also looks to me like carrying most of the weight on the frog, which is protruding from the level of the wall. If the picture does not trick me, this is not correct. The frog is supposed to be level with the finished hoof. Not protruding, not lower.
You also say that his hooves grow really fast. It may sound funny, and I am not sure, but I have the feeling that hooves that grow fast are somehow softer and weaker, ie not really suitable to go barefoot. Somehow, I believe that when barefoot, fast growing hooves will eventually wear down to the sole faster than slowly growing ones.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 6:55 pm:
Aileen,
Hopefully the first sole picture is deceiving, because I don’t see much heel there. I agree with Christos, if that picture is correct, this horse should be sore with shoes on or off. Something even more disturbing is the hoof wasn’t trimmed after shoe removal. I can see the black from shoe contact at the nail holes, but you’ll notice there isn’t any black color from the last nail to the heel. I would guess there was a considerable gap between the hoof wall and the shoe from the last nail back.
Now the gap could be intentional, I wouldn’t second guess the farrier, I’m not a farrier and there is a valid reason for a gap like that but it should be padded with a wedge. But I did change farriers recently for this very reason. My old farrier wouldn’t take care and make sure the shoe was tight all the way back to the heel. The result was a gap and the shoe would crush the heel rather than support it.
Is this farrier a part-timer or a certified full-timer? I would be looking for a second opinion from another certified farrier on this any case.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 7:14 pm:
Wow...I'd better get another farrier. I had no idea.
btw, at this last appointment, my farrier took off only about 1/4 inch from the toe of his back feet, nothing off the sides. His back feet have been barefoot for 6 weeks now.
My farrier is certified, he goes to all the conferences to stay up to date on the new "stuff". Or so I thought. He's been shoeing my guy for 3 years now. Any problems should have already been corrected by now...don't you think??
I ALWAYS ask him how my horse's feet are and he always says they are great.
A bit frustrated and I wish my horse could talk, however I thank you both -- of course along with everyone else -- very much for taking the time to help me!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 7:28 pm:
These look like fairly healthy feet to me. Yes a bit short which as Alden alludes to probably explains the tenderness. Christos I think the sole does have a concave look and the frog does not protrude excessively but admit photos can be at best difficult to read and sometimes downright misleading. If the horse gets to where he is not making improvement I think Aldens suggestion to put the shoes back on then take them off with a just a little clean up and balance is sensible. We covered recommendations for tougheners above.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 8:19 pm:
Our posts got crossed Aileen or I would have responded directly to your last comments. I see no reason to change farriers from these pictures: just let the soles thicken and toughen up a bit.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 8:51 pm:
Hello Aileen,
I concur with Dr.O. I took the photos available, rotated and enlarged on the photo imaging software that I have available on my computer and things do get difficult to read as you enlarge. However, his feet look great! but maybe just a tad short as indicated in previous posts by myself and other members. Was the sole bottom picture a right or left fore? When your horse was shod, was he hot seated or cold shoeing? The answer to that question might explain some of the black marks and how the shoe was fit or just some pressure points. Horse shoeing can be an exacting science. You could also check out some of the biotin supplements available on the market and see if your horse could benefit from such a thing. My horse has "Farriers Formula" and benefits greatly. Dr.O's post just came up in front of mine about hanging on to farrier and I agree. Give your farrier a call and discuss. It is a learning experience for all of you (Horse, farrier and worried "Mom") As an aside, I can see from the background stuff in the picture, hay on the ground and towel to wipe feet clean was no small feat (pardon the pun) to get those pictures 
Hope this helps! Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 9:04 pm:
Thanks Dr. O!!!
I'll make sure that if he does not regress that the farrier does not take off any sole next time. I'm also having a barefoot trimmer come see him at the end of the month -- just in case(had to work it in with another appointment - I live in the boonies) His next farrier appointment is Jan 16.
btw...I *think* the crossopol has formaldahyde in it...I'll have to check again.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 9:11 pm:
Hi Susan...yes...his feet were very muddy and I had to con him into standing still on three legs while I cleaned him up and put his medicine on (;)
Was the sole bottom picture a right or left fore?
If you're facing him it was his right and he is cold shod.
Thanks a bunch Susan!
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 6:40 am:
So, a barefoot horse should never have the sole trimmed? it should happen naturally? I think the pics above show too much concavity. After about a week or two would anyone recommend rolling the toes or squaring to take the pressure off?
Good thread...
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 8:03 am:
Personally I think the feet look pretty good. There are a thousand different opinions on barefoot-but the way mine are trimmed, all my TB's are sound in soft ground and across gravel.
THe concavity is what allows them to travel over different terrain barefoot-I have never hear of too much concavity.
My understanding (and how mine are trimmed) is the hoof wall is just 1-2mm beyond the sole...no more! The heels in a barefoot horse SHOULD be short-actually the whole hoof will be shorter than a shod horse!
As far as sole trimming, in a working horse on rougher terrain it can happen naturally, if the horse is on soft pasture and footing you may have to clean it up some.
I think a "mustang" roll around the whole foot might help with the horse's comfort.
Hey-I am not a farrier-but I have been learning to trim mine and I never would have believed how sound horse's could be
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 12:15 pm:
I have to agree too that I think these feet look pretty darn good, maybe a touch short, but that's all. The heels are nice and wide, nice wide frog, concavity of the sole (which could be more, but that can't be achieved overnight). If you say he improved a lot in a short time, I would let him be. His feet look a lot like my 5yo WB who's been barefoot his whole life.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 2:54 pm:
Darn pictures!  The link below shows what I expressed concern about. Notice the hoof wall of the heel is about the same level as the back of the frog. The picture of Aileen’s guy suggests the hoof wall is shorter/lower than the back of the frog. Just suggests mind you, Aileen can verify this by laying a straight edge across the heels. I didn’t just post the picture because of the little copyright thingy.
https://www.nohoof-nohorse.com/pictures/Bud/LargePics/RF-SoleHeel_2002-12-10b.htm l
As for a bare foot being shorter than a shod foot, I don’t understand. A properly shod foot has a shoe to stop hoof wall abrasion. Done correctly it follows the shape of the foot and I don’t see how it changes the load bearing ability of the foot. I think the size of both shod and unshod hoofs should be roughly the same, the size of the foot determines load bearing ability. Of course I’m speaking specifically of the standard shoe, not specialty shoes that may change the way the load is distributed.
The mustangs used in bare foot studies that have short feet are also small animals. The mustangs I’ve seen here weren’t 850lbs soaking wet, they will have a significantly different size foot than my 1250lbs Foxtrotter. At least I hope so.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 3:18 pm:
IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU WANT THE FROG TO TOUCH THE GROUND FOR THAT IS HOW BLOOD IS PUMPED THROUGH THE FOOT AREA
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 3:26 pm:
Yes, the frog is, in part, responsible for blood flow in and out of the foot. It atrophies to some extent in the shod foot - it does not touch the ground, therefore cannot perform its intended function.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 3:55 pm:
Thanks to all...just an update.
HE TORE UP MY PASTURE Attacking his buddy , bucking and kicking and squealing and galloping about. while I wasn't happy to have the new grass torn up, I was happy to see him having a good time...I have to think he's feeling better (;)
Alden, The frog does exceed the hoof by just a touch. My farrier always made sure ...even when he was shod to ensure that the frog touched the ground. Granted, he maybe should have taken off a little more frog since he is barefoot, but I'll leave that to him I guess...He did do great with his hind feet. In looking at your picture I can see where you would have reason to caution me. But my horses' frog is significantly wider and bigger than in that pic.
I really appreciate all who contributed, I have a wealth of knowledge on what to look out for!
Thanks again to all!
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 4:04 pm:
Alden-yes in theory the toe length SHOULD be the same-I find that is rarely true.
There is a GREAT book just out by Pete Ramey loaded with pictures of barefoot working horses-one is a draft horse that pulls a cart for a living barefoot--so in fact the mustang are smaller theory isn't necessarily true.
In Jaime Jackson's studies of horses, most horses (note: MOST) showed a toed length of 2 7/8-3 1/4...a good bare foot is like a little strong compact piece of art.
I am not sure when looking at the pictures if the heel is too short or rather if the frog has been left too long. You want even distrubtion of weight (when weight bearing) across the heels and frog-in these pictures, the frog appears to poke up and it is not weight bearing.
It would just be hard to say from the pictures. As you ,or someone mentioned, laying a rasp on edge across the back part can tell if it is level or rocks back and forth.
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 4:08 pm:
One other thing I wanted to mention-the link alden referred to is one of a Martha Olivio trained trimmer (I assume as she refers to the "Whole Horse Trim" and links to Marhta's site)...I have had an experience with this trim and would suggest that anyone considering barefoot be very careful of any method that suggests abscesses as a method of the horse healing.
When transitioning a horse to barefoot it CAN be a pretty pain free process and absecessing should NOT be expected.
I have had great success with those certified by Jaime-it is NOT an intrusive trim and the horse does not have a loooonnnggg transition period-most horses can stay in work during the process.
Again-I am no expert but this has been my experience.
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 9:36 pm:
Wow, Alden.
Both my vet and the farriers (3) I work with would call the foot pictured in the link included in your post of 12-17 very disturbing! They totally object to removing that much frog and sole. Dr O, would you find time to look at Alden's link and comment? Perhaps my education is sorely in need of updating, but I would much prefer a hoof like the pictures of Aileen's horses sole--I winced at the one on the other site.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 6:27 am:
Note: we are discussing the photos in the link in Alden's post of 1/17/03.
I agree Julie, this is a pathological (diseased) foot. This foot has a reduced and contracted heel mass, shown in this picture by the sunken frog and the closed up cleft in the sulcus. This is secondary to either long term caudal foot pain or misapplied shoeing pratices or possibly both.
Proper trimming may improve this foot somewhat but it will be impossible to return it to normal in my experience. The trim looks fairly appropriate for a shoeless trim though I would like to see breakover moved back a bit by rockering and rolling the toe. The hoof conformation could be improved by removing more foot altogether and ap balance improved by then lowering the toe somewhat but this is probably impossible without thinning the sole excessively.
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 7:45 am:
Aileen, don't doubt your farrier for what we are discussing here. Not only he has seen these hooves, he has been treating them for years, so he does know better than any of us can tell from pictures.
The hooves in Alden's link are, to my understanding, the exact opposite of your horse's hooves. His frogs look like they never touched ground, all shrivelled up and burried in the hoof. I'd put that horse on shoes with beveled heel contact in order to force the heel to expand. Adding humidity could also help. I wouldn't, as I see in the "before" pictures, hold these heels together with a hard plastic pad.
Your horse's hooves are nice and healthy, Aileen, no comparison!
Dr O, I am only worried that the concavity we see in Aileen's pictures is dug by the farrier and not natural. That is because it doesn't look to blend into the wall with the same concavity that starts from the frog, it kind of flattens out in the last 0,5 cm or so. That sugests too much of a wall trim by 2-3mm or so, and I think that the slightly protruding frog concurs to it.
There is also a slight flare on the outer side, I think, which suggests a hint of a lateral imbalance.
The horse will definitely get used to this trim when his soles toughen up in a few days, but I doubt that it can work barefoot in such a tight trim.
Just my opinion, I do not mean to argue with anyone over photos, and definitely not with the farrier over a hoof I have not seen.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 10:55 am:
Aileen,
I would definitely hang on to your present farrier, the one who is continuously seeking new education and attending clinics. Perhaps he did cut your horse's feet a little short because they do grow fast. If he still continues to get better as you indicated above (tearing up pasture ), then perhaps keep the shoes off and let him go a little longer in between trims. 6 week intervals for trimming may be a little too often, unless your horse has some serious hoof imbalance problems that need frequent attention. I don't think that is the case here. I think most horseowners would love to have their horses barefoot with healthy strong feet. Sometimes, that isn't possible. We all have to remember that we have domestic horses living in a domestic environment and that some of these natural living requirements just isn't available.
Dr.O's article on the 4-point trim is good and I think an excellent starting point for barefooting it. The photos in Alden's link was a pretty dramatic change from what the horse had underneath him to what he has now. The "Martha Olivio" school of thought comes from the teachings of a Dr. Hillstrud Strasser. One difference in these trims is that Strasser teaches coffin bone parallel to the ground, while a more traditional method teaches the coffin bone slightly elevated by 2 or 3 degrees in the heel. Don't know who is right, but I am sure this issue has provided good fodder for lively discussions amoungst farriers and vets alike. Just keep watching your horse and I think Alden said this in another post, he will tell you by his actions what he needs or doesn't. Good Luck Aileen and keep us posted. This is an excellent thread. 
Susan B.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 11:45 am:
Thanks Christos, he does flare out a bit with or without shoes, perhaps it is because they grow so fast? I'm wondering if your comment has merit...about the feet growing so fast it causes weakness?? Hmmmmmm...
When I was talking about the similarity of the diseased foot and my horse, I was talking about the concavity. Then I noticed in Leah's post that perhaps he *should* have concavity... another issue, does that mean that his sole should be trimmed to allow for the concavity?
Susan...he made me laugh out loud! I hadn't seen him that worked up in a long time...over nothing - just him being silly and full of himself - but oh so very majestic and beautiful!!!
btw, I am fully aware that he will probably need to have his shoes put back on...but at least he will have had a good breather.
He is just a tad tentative this morning, he probably hurt himself going crazy yesterday. But I was told he would have good days and bad days. As long as I'm not cringing watching him, I will leave the shoes off.
btw, I'm going to talk to my farrier about which supplement to put him on...I will ask him about farrier's formula and also ask my friend what she has her horse on - he has WLD and he's doing VERY well!
Thanks a million!
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 12:09 pm:
No no no no do NOT trim for concavity--that will make his sole too thin.
One of the most important things is addressing the flares-the flares will allow weakness where the wall flares. Flares create an imbalance.
One of my horses MUST be touched up every 3-4 weeks because of his flares.
What will happen when the balance gets correct and the flares are addressed and there is a good tight white line, the hoof will concave on its own. Methods like Olivio and Strasser trim for concavity-I find this to be too aggressive.
As my trimmer says-trim to the foot and the rest will take care of itself...
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 1:50 pm:
The web page for farriers formula is www.lifedatalabs.com. Also refer to Dr.O's articles on biotin supplements.
Bingo! for Leah's comments.
Susan B.
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 2:13 pm:
I must add an amendment to the "don't trim for concavity" - you don't trim for concavity IF you already have hit "live" sole. However, as in the case of my 19yo who, after probably 17 years of being shod finally is barefoot, there was an awful lot of "dead" sole, causing him to look like he was pretty flat-soled. Trimming this excess dead sole showed that he actually did have a relatively concave profile. Live sole was not touched. In fact, not even all the dead sole was trimmed away because the farrier felt it would be too much change too quickly. She might get rid of all the dead sole in a couple of weeks, or she might take a bit more and the rest the next time.
Flares are the result of an imbalance, and if they are not kept in check by rasping them out (as much as you can within reason) they will continue to cause and exacerbate balance issues, stretching the white line in the meantime. My 5yo goes through phases of flaring - sometimes he seems to flare the instant the farrier leaves, other times he'll go 6 months without hint of one. Not sure what the deal is there. But they need to be taken care of, and any person who can hold a rasp and a foot at the same time can take care of them - you don't need your farrier
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 2:25 pm:
Ohhh..NOW I get it!! Thanks Leah!
Susan, thanks for the link, I'll look into it today.
Jordana, thanks, I'm chicken to do anything to my horse's feet... However, I will be asking the barefoot trimmer to show me how to do it.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 2:48 pm:
Aileen, I do not know whether fast growing hoofs are really weaker. It is just a feeling I have, can not support it with facts and you shouldn't take it too seriously until we know better. But even if it is true, the hoof would be weak all over, which does not justify flares.
Leah, it is not flares that create imbalance. It is imbalance that creates flares.
I am working the last months on a barefoot mare that had a noticeable flare on the outside of her right hind. She is very stiff on the right rein (family thing) and she wouldn't really put her right hind under her body. She'd reach forward with it, but not under. So the outside of her right hind did not get the load it should, the wall on that side did not get stimulus to grow nice and strong and straight, and a flare occured.
It did eventually grow nice and straight with exercise and suppling of the horse, no corrective trimming whatsoever. So yes, trim to the foot, but leaving all the rest to nature may not be adequate to fix problems.
Supplementing all barefoot horses with a biotin formula and nothing else has worked well for me. When from time to time we need to shoe one of them, I have to sharpen the nails by hand or they won't go through...
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 3:06 pm:
Jordana, you must adress the imbalance as well as the flares. Just rasping the flares down all the time strips and weakens the wall.
Trimming the sole or not is very much a matter of terrain for me. In unforgiving rock, you want that extra dead sole for protection, as well as a little bit longer walls and steeper angles (say 55 degrees) to avoid bruises. So why not accomodate the extra protection in more forgiving conditions as well?
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 3:14 pm:
Christos - no doubt you must address the imbalance issue when dealing with flares, I never meant to imply otherwise. But the average horse owner can't address that adequately, only the farrier who comes every 5-8 weeks or so. What the average owner CAN do is keep the flares in check so they don't continually add to the problem. If flares are left to flare for 8 weeks, the farrier might never be able to "fix" the foot, or it might take a lot longer than it should.
As for the longer walls and steeper angles - I can't say I agree, terrain or not, if it puts the angles and overall hoof length out of what is good for the horse. But if that works for you, why not?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 3:52 pm:
Jordana, I mean that you have to carefully examine the overall balance of the horse.
Most of the times, in my experience, a flare means that the horse is not loading that part of the hoof, for one reason or the other. Find that reason, eliminate it, and there goes the flare!
Longer walls, I mean as far as the frog is still in good contact with the ground. Not much longer, mind you, I am talking some 2mm more than usual trimming. Having that and achieving a 55 degree angle without removing too much sole from the toe is a rare hoof to find, but one that's worth it's weight in gold for me!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 7:32 pm:
Thanks Christos and all, oh...do you mind if I ask what kind of biotin supplement you use?
Another update.....
I walked him over to our large arena today...at first as a trial run to see how he would do on pavement, rocks, trails, etc. He did great! He actually walked RIGHT THROUGH WATER!! All FOUR feet!! He always tries to find a way around it! I was simply amazed.
Then I turned him out so he could run around without tearing up his pasture and I SWEAR I've never seen him with so much suspension as long as I've owned him!! His trot was just spectacular!
Could him being barefoot cause this!??? Walking through water all of a sudden and significant suspension at the trot?
Has anyone had similar experiences with a recently barefoot horse?
just curious...
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 10:07 pm:
I didn't intend to advocate the foot in the URL I linked to as healthy or desirable. In fact I thought it was evident that the website is showing unhealthy feet advocating their trim methods. I also didn't intend to promote that particular website or the information it contains. I was just looking for a photograph with similar angles to Aileen's photo to illistrate correctly trimmed heels IMO ie. heels the same length or longer than the heel bulbs. Sorry for the mis-communication.
I did some doodling on Aileen's photograph to illustrate my area of concern. A conclusion can't be made from the photo, but it is possible the horse is putting considerable weight on the bulbs of the heel. If a ruler can be place across the heels and touch both at the same time there is no problem. Otherwise I would consider the heels too short.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 8:38 am:
Actually my understanding in a barefoot horse, with proper balance, it is quite common to be passively weight bearing on the heel bulbs-even to the point where the bulbs will flatten a bit.
I can't really comment on the picture here-just overall I wouldn't always conclude passive heel bulb ground contact is a bad thing.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 9:07 am:
Aileen, I use biotin from NAF, but I think it does not make much of a difference as far as it comes from a decent manufacturer.
Horseshoes, of course, is no reason for any horse to refuse crossing water.
He sounds like he's trying out the new setup, now that it doesn't hurt any more. And if the pain goes away in a shiny day off, well, wouldn't your step gain elevation?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 9:18 am:
He sounds like a happy boy now, well done, despite all our scepticism here.
Just keep in mind that you have to be a bit careful, until a new barefoot hoof grows nice and strong. It is better to avoid, for the next few months, terrain that may badly chip his hooves or bruise the soles.
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 9:35 am:
Alden,
I didn't get the impression that you were promoting this particular website or what they are teaching. I have always enjoyed your well informed input.
Your right, photos can be deceiving. The farrier that trimmed Aileen's horse may have had a reason for doing it the way he did. After all he has been shoeing her horse for 3 years and is familiar with how his feet grow. Perhaps he left the frog a little longer than the heels to unload the hoof wall.
Susan B.
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Member:
Buddil
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Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 2:10 pm:
Aileen, I have a gelding that was diagnosed with navicular. Had a slight headbobbing going to the right, never to the left. Xrays revealed changes in both of the navicular bones, lollypops and a few cones in each. Blocked him on both legs and he went sound. Went through all different types of shoeing and never quite found a way to keep him comfy. Even bute did not help. Finally did the only option left, nerving. After that he still occasionally bobbed going to the right. Has been nerved since the summer and just still was not totally sound going to the right! So frustrating! Changed farriers this past fall and he was totally amazed at the wonderful condition of his feet and said since he is nerved, pull his shoes for the winter and let him breath. Why spend the money if his feet are so wonderful? Tried it, and low and behold, not a single head bob since! He is so sound now. He only had front shoes on. All involved when he was going through pain issues with shoes on said never to let him without shoes, wedges, and pads. Now I feel that the shoes restricted the blood flow all that time. Time will tell what will happen, but I am happy and he is in 7th heaven! Stride in front is reaching and shoulder movement is great! Now I have to learn how to sit this! Best of luck!
Cathy
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 20, 2003 - 6:15 pm:
Thanks Christos, His feet are a bit chipped now by the nail holes from his outing the other day. But he is still fiesty!
Thanks Cathy...so good to hear about your boy! Congrats!
I've learned so very much from this thread, thanks to all!
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