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  Discussion on Older horse not able to eat his hay
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Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 1:34 pm:

Hi DrO,

I have a few questions in regards to my 1979 stallion who has little teeth left! My Vet has been re-assessing him every spring with his teeth float & we'd hoped that we could continue his diet through this winter, but...

I'm not satisfied with his current condition, he usually puts on extra weight through the winter months, but this winter his ribs are felt quite easily.

He has access to a round bale which it appears that he's been grazing off of it, but there are several chunks of half chewed hay laying around (which has been the norm for the past couple of years.)

He's also supplemented with alfalfa/timothy cubes, frisky foal ration & rolled oats.

He has free access to red salt & an Equest block.

I'm thinking about adding beet pulp to his diet & have a few questions as it's been many years since I've fed beet pulp.

I heard that it's not necessary to soak beet pulp? Is this true? I used to soak beet pulp for at least an hour prior to feeding to ensure that the pellets became mash - do I still need to use this procedure?

He is consuming his grain ration & cubes easily without soaking them, so I'd prefer to leave it that way if it's working. Is this okay?

I also heard some discussion about the use of rolled oats vs. whole. I've always fed rolled oats with the assumption that they're more easily digested - this appears to be a myth, is it?

Can I feed my stallion whole oats if his teeth aren't what they used to be?

Thanks for any information you can share. When I meet with my Vet this weekend I'll let him know that I will be changing my stallions feed ration right away. He mentioned that he has an excellent menu he'll give me when it comes this time. I'm just looking for as much information at this point in time as possible.

By the way, I printed up all the information on nutrition & it's an excellent source of information.

Have I mentioned lately how much I love this site?!?

Lanna in BC
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 4:05 pm:

Lanna,

I have had some experience with older horses who have little to no grinding surface left on their teeth.

Even after dental work, if they are still quidding their hay, then it is time to change the ration to something that needs little mastication.

I have shared in the past that what has worked best for me is a complete pellet . . . soaked. I know the soaking takes extra time, but not much. I used to pour warm water on the pellets just before feeding, and they were soaked enough for the geriatric crew . . . The soaking ensures that the pellets are broken down enough for the next stage of digestion . . . and because I was feeding a higher volume of concentrate, I figure that the water helps with the movement of the feed through the digestive system . . .and in the winter, it really ensures that my old guys get enough water, since horses tend to drink less in the winter months due to the cold water temperature.

We had tried senior feeds and beet pulp, but the complete pellet (sort of like a guinea pig pellet in looks) was the best thing I've found.

I also started feeding a prebiotic (as opposed to a probiotic . . . heard that the pre biotic fed the little bacterias already in the gut, and that is better for the equine digestive system, whereas the pro biotic just added the end results of all the bacterial action, and is more suited to an bovine digestive system) to my older horses . . . to ensure that their gut flora stayed healthy . . . especially when I had to feed oil sometimes to emaciated ones who came my way.

Hope this helps.
Holly
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 8:11 pm:

As Holly suggests it is first important to have the horses teeth evaluated for possible corrections. Whether or not to soak beet pulp is a often discussed topic, just run a search on the discussions. However if the problems cannot be corrected anything you can do to make chewing easier makes sense to me.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 8:55 am:

Holly-expand a little on the pre-biotics, please. ie-what they are called or brand names. Thanks.
Member:
Westks

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 10:20 am:

Yes Holly please do expand on the pre biotics and who makes them.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 10:58 am:

Janette and Sara,

Please go to www.adeptusnutrition.com
The woman who started the company used to be Farnham's top head nutritionist (from what I understand and can remember). I have used both pro-biotics (Ration-Plus) and the Adeptus pre-biotics . . . I felt that the results on my old guys has been better with the Adeptus product . . . they look great and have energy to spare . . . we are talking 30 and 40 years old here . . . both horses are still in light work (trail and ring riding by a teen and her mom).

Holly
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 11:19 am:

Thanks Holly & DrO,

My stallion is a 1979 model that's kept up with his teeth treatments & assessments yearly, my Vet has all the newest equipment for dental work & gives him a full work up every spring.

Though he's not able to properly chew the coarse hay, he did well on pasture throughout the summer & doesn't "spill" his grain.

I think I know the complete pellet you're referring to, it's called complete feed. I used to use it years ago in my own mixture of sweetfeed. Then I switched to the frisky foal ration since that's what I feed my youngsters & everyone seems to do very well on it!

Any thoughts on whole oats vs. rolled?

I like the idea of moistening the feed to help him chew, but more so because it will increase his fluid intake. He doesn't drink nearly as much through the winter, so this is an excellent solution to that problem! (Thanks Holly!)

We don't have a very big house, so the thought of buckets filling the boot room soaking in warm water probably won't go over very well with the hubby! And, with the cold weather they can't be left outside for too long without freezing solid!

If I only have to soak the feed for a few minutes, this can easily be done without inconveniencing the boot room space!

What exactly is the adeptus prebiotics for?

Thanks,

Lanna in BC
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 11:28 am:

Ah Hah! Adeptus Invigor is what Holly is talking about - I don't know if it is available in stores here, but I will have a look.

No need to answer my question as to what it is Holly, but how do I know when I should start using a supplement such as this?

Are you feeding it to your older horses only? And what are you using as forage for your older mates?

Thanks again for all your helpful information,

Lanna in BC
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 7:01 pm:

Lana if you have time you can screen his hay. that is what I do for my old stallion , Cutter, he will be 29 in January! He is missing some molars, so cannot chew hay anymore. I have a screen that has appox half inch to 3/4 inch holes in it, and I run all of the leavings in the bottom of my feed cart through this screen. Plus I shake the leaves out of alfalfa hay for him, and give the stems to my other horses. Almost all stems are removed this way , and Cutter can still enjoy eating his hay, which he loves. I feed both alfalfa and grass hay. What you should also do is get this stud onto a diet with oil in it. During breeding season I have Cutter on approx 3 cups of soy oil per day, it is divided up and put onto his old horse feed, which I soak in hot water. My elevator makes an old horse feed in bulk, it is mainly alfalfa pellets, manna pellets, and rolled oats with some corn, and barley plus light molasses. I pay about $12 per hundred for this feed and keep it in barrels. I bring out a 1 gal jug of hot water(an old orange juice jug works well) from the house for his feed. he gets 3 qts of this feed two times a day during the off season and up to 3 gallons a day during breeding season. Plus the dry screened hay twice a day in another large tub. If the hot water soaks up all the feed, I ad more cold water to it just before I dump it in his tub. this also is a good way to make sure an old horse gets plenty of water during the winter. Cutter loves his old horse feed and likes it sloppy like soup. I would hate for your horse to choke trying to eat hay that he cannot chew. I am very careful with Cutter as he is the last son of a very famous cutting horse and still in great shape. I buy the soy oil in huge jugs at Sam's club, costco would also have this oil, it is about $14 for a 5 gal jug. Cutter is actually quite fat right now, that is why I have cut back on his feed. Chris www.canyonrimranch.net
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 9:29 pm:

I'll throw in with Holly. I, too, have had lots of geriatric equines. A couple of the oldest had no molars at all ( 38 and 40 when they died ). My older guys all seemed to follow the same pattern - when it became apparent that they were having trouble maintaining their weights, we'd start "Senior" feed. They would eat well for awhile, then seem to tire of it. After switching brands, they'd eat again, then turn away. The pelleted whole feed, with water added, always did the trick with all of mine, and eventually, the whole barn ended up on it. But then, the whole barn IS over 20, so....
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 1:18 am:

Lana . . .

Increased concentrates, especially when mixed with oil, can interfere with the normal gut flora in any horse's digestive system, but even more so with an older horse's system which is . . . well . . . OLDER. If you can afford to do so, I would start the prebiotics as soon as you notice that your older horse is having trouble maintaining condition or when you start to increase his grain ration . . .

The complete pellet has all the forage included, and my older horses couldn't handle screened hay or Dengie . . . so, just to give them some extra chewing action (they had free choice shelter/pasture) I would also add a small coffee can of Alfalfa/Hay cubes to the ration . . . My guys couldn't really eat grass . . . just chewed the juice out of it and spit out the quids. . . . which other pasture horses would eat, so if you aren't looking, you may not know that your old horses may even be quidding pasture grass . . .

Holly
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 5:42 am:

Though there are times and specific recommendations we make for the use of yeast culture products, it should be noted that the efficacy and value of the effects of products like this remains a question mark. To learn more about the pros and cons see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Probiotics and Yeast Culture Products. I wanted to be sure you had also seen the article on Care for Horses » Routine Care & Procedures » Geriatric Horse: Problems and Care.
DrO
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

If your horse cannot eat grass or has missing molars, then there is no way he can eat dry cubes or pellets and that would be a very easy way to choke him. I would never consider giving my stud a dry pellet or a cube, especially. Cutter can no longer eat grass, either, but he does real well with the screened hay, since there are no stems longer than 1/2 an inch or so, he can just swallow it. If a few longer stems get through, he spits them out or avoids them, and I find them in the bottom of his feed tub. I have been using some probiotics too, fastrac , but I dont know if it helps or not. You can get cubes from moormans that are half timothy hay if you feel like he might be getting too much alfalfa. But I always soak these in hot water too, until they fall apart, which only takes a few minutes. many horses with good teeth will choke on dry cubes, no way would I give a dry cube to an old horse with bad or missing teeth.
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 12:31 pm:

Cutter did not like the purina senior, which is made up of mostly beet pulp, I think. I also gave him soaked beet pulp at first when he first came to me, but he never liked it that much, and stopped eating it once he started getting his weight back. He has been on the senior feed I get from my elevator now for almost two years and still loves it. It has no beet pulp in it. I also put him on red cell during breeding season.
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 3:13 pm:

Hello everyone,

Thanks so much for all your wonderful advice - I greatly appreciate all the input! I'm definitely going to get into the routine of moistening my studs feed as there are obviously many benefits to that!

Just so that I don't panic you all too greatly, I did slip his blanket off last night to have a good look at his condition & I might say he looks great! I'm thinking his age is just starting to show a little more this year then any other - previous to this year he looked the same as any teenager!!!

I've noticed that his back is sinking & his whithers are becoming more prominent than before - his teeth have always given away his age!

Anyway, you can palpate his ribs, but they aren't visible to the eye! He's certainly not "wasting away" by any stretch. Of course, I wouldn't want to wait until he did before I got on a new routine of feed!

I have taken all the suggestions into great consideration & I will tell you that I will start to moisten his feed tonight! I hope he doesn't want to give me a sloppy kiss!?!

Thanks a bunch,

Lanna in BC
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 3:21 pm:

Hi Christine,

Thanks for all your great information, I had a look at your site - your senior citizen is beautiful! It's good to hear that there are many seniors out there & living longer lives - all due to our excellent care and attention I'm sure!

You mentioned Soy Oil? Is there any reason why you would choose that type, or can a person use a good Veggie oil or Canola?

I haven't fed my guy oil yet, but my Vet did mention it this spring as part of the diet he'll give me when the time comes. He also mentioned that most fast food restaurants are willing to sell it to you in bulk - much cheaper then buying it retail! Once they're aware of the reason, most are willing to help out.

I'll be looking into that as well.

Until then, I will start soaking his pellets & the cubes. (He has two buckets in his barn - one for the pellets/oats mixture & the other for his cubes!)

Hopefully he can eat everything before it freezes?!?

Nobody has mentioned anything yet about the rolled oats vs. whole yet??? What's your opinions?

Lanna in BC

Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 6:11 pm:

Lanna and Christine,

Just to clarify . . . I do soak the cubes with the complete feed, and feed them all together in the same bucket. Neither of my two oldest horses could manage the screened hay . . . they just couldn't chew any of it . . . the same way they couldn't chew grass in the spring and summer. Because they have such poor mastication, I wouldn't feed any whole grain, rolled or otherwise. I don't think it would be efficient nutritionally or financially.

I believe that research has shown that all the vegetable, canola, corn and soy oils accomplish the same things as far as packing on good calories. I use Corn Oil when it is on sale, but that is because I like the idea of it . . . maybe because I know my horses like corn :-) . .

I also understand that yeast culture products still hold a question mark as far as they good they do for the horse's digestive system, but we humans are encouraged to eat yogurt when we are on antibiotics . . . to replace the good bacteria in our digestive tracts . . . and I figure that the pre/pro biotics can't hurt . . . and all I can do is point to the health of my old guys since I've fed the pre-biotics and the soaked complete pellets (and oil, if needed). Just for some info on volume of feed, my 14.3" Appy gelding (40 years) gets four small coffee cans of pellets in the a.m. and p.m. When he was in really poor shape, he got three feedings of 4 cans and we had him up to 1 cup of corn oil per feeding (it was gradually increased from 1/4c in the a.m. and p.m. feedings).

My guys LOVE their hot mush . . . they eat it slowly with their eyes closed . . . and seem to relish every taste . . .

I'll try to post a pic of my Appy, General . . . he's a character and a half . . . and the best lesson horse for beginner adults and kids . . . I am so glad he came my way and that he is still, after 9 years, going strong.
General

Holly
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 11:23 am:

Hello Holly,

Love your photo - he looks great, you're obviously doing something right!!!

Thanks for all your wonderful advice - I started moistening my studs feed last night & let me tell you, he lapped it up and enjoyed every slurp!

I'm going to break up the way I feed him so that I don't have to give him so much at once - I'm worried that he can't eat it fast enough before it will freeze. I'm sure he'll enjoy the multiple feedings anyway!

I'm going to pick up some oil - I'll shop around a little to find out what the best deals are & then I'll slowly introduce it into his feed as well.

Thanks again for your wonderful advice and suggestions, I'm sure my boy appreciates it too! And, it doesn't take long at all for the pellets or the cubes to break down to a more palatable ration... Besides the room it takes up for a few minutes before feed time - it makes the boot room smell absolutely YUMMY!

Thanks again everyone,

Lanna in BC
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 12:47 pm:

Thanks, Lanna.

Glad your fellow enjoys his gourmet meal. It takes just a few minutes longer than regular feeding, but these old fellows are worth it . . . and deserve it after the years of service they give to us.

Holly
Member:
Lanna1

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 1:09 pm:

My sentiments exactly Holly! Anything I can do to make it a little easier for my fellow is worth it! He's given me many years of service & he has his home with me until the end...

Lanna in BC
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 8:20 pm:

Holly Wood-I love the picture of your guy. What a sweet face he has! And he looks in good condition, so whatever you're doing is working.

Lana-I prefer rolled, steamed or cracked oats if an older horse, especially. I notice when I feed whole oats that I often see the entire oat in the manure. Good for the birds, but I'd rather the horses got the nutrition. Also, when feeding oats, ask for the "race oats" or triple cleaned oats. They are a heavier oat and have much less dust, etc. Annhouser-Busch (sp?) make excellent, clean oats. The lighter oats have more husk and less nutrition.

Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 8:26 pm:

btw-it's nice to read about all of you with older horses that are so well cared for and loved. I wish everyone cared for their older horses like you do. I hate seeing them, sway backed, ribs showing, no shelter, and out in some weedy field.

I had a wonderful old boy who died of annurism at age 30. I'd had him for 28 yrs. I now have two older mares (24 and 25) who've been with me for years. They are the honored matriarchs of the barn and "rule the roost!" (the way they look when everything is going their way.)
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