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Discussion on Hoof issues, Seeking advice
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 12:09 am:
Worried "father" here...
Horse: 6.5 y/o Belgian draft mare (17.2hh) with 8 month old colt. Owned both for 7 months. Pre-purchase and 6 month vet checkups show "normal, healthy, sound, yada yada" on both animals. Slightly underwieght (~200#) at purchase, vet states the weight is perfect now and i'm "not to change anything".
Issue #1: My mare has had flared hooves since I bought her. My farrier has been able to correct a little of it, but they seam to keep flaring at the lower 1/3 of the hoof (mostly the sides... the front seams like it holds the line well). I have also noticed a few vertical cracks that never seam to grow out. Oddly, the rears are worse in flare and cracks than the fronts.
My farrier says there is "no hope" for flared hooves on draft horses. This statement conflicts with other things I read (ever see the drafts at disneyland and sea world? wow!). Does anyone have a definative (or close to it) thought on correcting flare? She has always gone barefoot at the farriers advice, but with the flaring, cracks and slightly low heel, i would really like to see some "clip on" shoes until the hoof grows out. Am I incorrect in suggesting/demanding this?
Issue #2: Well, one of those vertical cracks has become ugly. I dont know how to describe it in medical/horsey terms, so i'll try to attach a picture or two. the flare basically broke at the crack. I'm really worried about this and have been trying to get ahold of my farrier for 3 days without a call back. The mare is now on stall rest pending a vet/farrier on site diagnosis and/or correction. She doesnt appear to be lame, but might be holding that leg "disengaged" more often than she did prior. From helping her through a past sand colic episode, i do know that her threshold for pain is very high and it is sometimes hard to tell with an animal that large.
Is this a definate shoeing case? some sort of glue? Staples? I've read quite a bit on this forum, but dont find much in "opened up crack and flaring" stuff.
many thanks for your input. and oh, by the way, she has always been on the biotin suppliment and the new growth looks great. We also use "corona" and "rainmaker". she is fed 60/40 with oil and is turned out nearly daily, and ridden 1-3 times a week (long rides... trail and river stuff). the weather lately has been the worst you could get for feet. drenching rain followed by very dry hard winds. ugh!
Thanks!
Doug
Photo of rear right:
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 12:17 am:
here is the top view... please pardon the foot. the dark areas on the left side of the hoof are splashed water, not irregularities.
notice the "fold line" going down and right from the apex of the crack showing the area that had lifted.
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 12:23 am:
one more from the front.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 7:05 am:
Hello Douglas,
Excellent photos. Not only do your horses hooves suffer from excessive flare but also from moderately run under heels, the cracks are secondary to both conditions.
Both are improvable, particularly the flares, but I believe you will have to incorporate a different farrier: you can give all the instruction in the world and if the eye and technique are not there you will end up with a lame horse. Shoes with clips could be incorporated to help but may not be necessary, the key is to trim to minimize weight bearing and abnormal abductive forces on the quarters until healthy strong wall grows out. The run under heels should improve as the quarters gain strength but specific treatment requires better evalusation than I can get from the pictures alone. You should increase the frequency of the trimmin on this horse to better control torn away wall.
There is more you can do nutritional wise, see Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview for more and assessing the hoof dressings you are using.
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 7:23 am:
Dr O,
I think the first picture suggests that the tubules at the toe are nice and straight, whilst the quarter ones have been pushed forward/sideways/upwards by the underrun heel, resulting in the flare and the crack.
I just want to ask, wouldn't wedge pads be a good idea to relieve this condition? The wall/pastern looks broken back too.
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 8:43 am:
Hello Douglas- The Good Doctor already covered what I was going to say! Flares most CERTAINLY can be dealt with and MUST be dealt with every time a horse is trimmed. Same with the underrun heels.
I think a new trimmer is in order-if you don't mind sharing where you are located, I might be able to offer a suggestion of a trimmer well educated in addressing just these issues.
To me, these feets could be cleaned up in no time at all!
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 10:30 am:
Many thanks for the input!
Dr. O: Whew! thanks for the input. Sounds like there is hope. I'll get into the white papers right now, and pass along the info to whatever farrier shows up first.
Was I correct in not riding/working her until a later time? Do you think the beast might be grounded for a while? or would some trimming and correction give her a clean return-to-play status?
I had been doing 7-8 week trimmings. would 5-6 week be better? shorter? basically, i dont care what it costs if it corrects the issues. Gold plated wonder-shoes are fine as long as we get a good prognosis and result.
Leah: I am in Norco California (southern area of the state near Corona and Riverside).
My farrier is supposed to be one of the best in the area. My vet swears by him and his work for other people is generally praised. my gut feeling is he is simply not versed in draft horse feets (he admits that he does very few drafts). He might simply need some additional education in the matter. HOWEVER i would be happy to entertain a new farrier if it is best. Besides, not getting a call back after 4 days now is making me an unhappy camper with him.
"Horseweek" is coming up in 2 months in our town and between the parades, events, and Mounted Posse patrol work, it's gonna get real busy. hopfully i can get her feet solid before then...
Doug
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Member:
Lanna1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 11:52 am:
Hey Doug,
Ditto to what DrO said earlier, from what I can see of your pictures Leah is right in saying that this problem can certainly be corrected with diligent trimming. As for your farrier, I'd certainly suggest getting a new one - I find that regardless of what others opinions are of some of these professionals, your own opinion is what counts the most. It doesn't sound like your previous farrier is willing to work with your mares problem!
Needless to say, I wouldn't worry too much, I too have a couple of horses that tend to flare if they're left too long between trims. It doesn't take anytime at all to get the "whipped" back into shape, so to speak!
Good luck,
Lanna
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Member:
Jjet
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 1:38 pm:
Another farrier, yeah. He probably doesn't like doing drafts if he's not accustomed to it. A major clue is his lack of response. I had a similar thing happen with a farrier we had. He just did not appear to want to address our problems. Our new (had her for a year now) farrier is an angel. Deals with anything with aplomb. Loves any new info she is not acquainted with, very patient, has made all our horses very comfortable with her work. The old farrier seems to do just fine for my friend down the street, however. Sometimes the fit is just not right.
Jan
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 3:42 pm:
Update: Farrier called back. He was "out of town for a few days"...
I basically told him get over here and deal with some corrective action including current repairs, probable shoeing, methods, and something way shorter than 8 week visits until things are under control. I read a few of the responses, from this forum, to him over the phone and he agreed and wants to discuss it further after evaluating the hoof. He agreed fully with Dr. O's thoughts.
He didnt want to come out during 40-50 MPH winds. Something about "thats how farriers get hurt". Hopefully the winds die down today. I can understand his concern with wind-spooky horses (i used to have a total nutcase arab) but I have yet to get this belgian to spook; i've tried!
If he tries to maintain status quo, i'll dump him. and look elsewhere. Otherwise he does have 20 years of experience and is well known in the area. I feel I need to give him one more shot. As long as he proceeds with the general consensus of this group, i'll feel much better.
I'll keep you posted
Doug
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 3:53 pm:
Jan... I can sympothize with farriers a little, as i have a bad back and dont tolerate bending forward for long periods. Going from picking out the arabs feet to the belgian was quite the new and tiring experience.
She is VERY good with the farrier, but just the weight of that huge leg and hoof, while bending over isnt much fun. not to mention a draft does take a bit more time and they really should charge a little more for the time spent.
If i was his age and had a choice between a fru-fru little show horse and a wooley-mammoth-butt draft i might lose interest in the draft, but farriers just need to say "sorry, maybe I am not the right person for this horse".
thanks for the reply!
doug
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 5:01 pm:
I agree that both the flares and the underrun heels (which are actually heels that are TOO long) can and must be dealth with, and I seriously doubt you need shoes to deal with them. I also agree that a new farrier is in order. I don't believe when someone says they aren't used to dealing with draft feet. Feet are feet, some bigger, some teeny, but they all can and should be trimmed to the horse, so trimming a draft foot is basically no different from trimming a mini's.
The fact that flares are present and dealt with every trimming means there is an imbalance in the foot, aside from the obvious fact of the underrun heels.
If these feet have been barefoot for a while and the horse is sound, I see no reason to lay off any work while the feet are being corrected.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 5:46 pm:
Jordana,
Come on now, weight is a big and unpleasant difference, even when your back is ok and the horse very cooperative.
The only thing that's good with a heavy leg is the inertia to the hammer.
Personally, I prefer shoeing a crazy corn fed Arab right out of the stall than a gentle cooperative giant of a Draft.
When, at the local shop, they mumble jokes for elephants every time you order shoes, it is not your ego that hurts, it is your lower back!
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 7:06 pm:
Christos - I wasn't referring to the size of the foot or the weight of the horse. I was referring to Douglas's statement "my gut feeling is he is simply not versed in draft horse feets". There is no difference between the functional points of trimming a mini foot as compared to a draft foot.
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Member:
Tagloili
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 7:30 pm:
Although this won't help you much, I have a QH mare who had same problem. After I moved from clay to sandy soil, no more flaring.
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 8:57 pm:
George... ya might have hit on something!
In the days prior to me noticing that break, we had some seriously heavy rains. My brilliant mare doesnt stand under the covering where it is dry and sandy, she likes to stand in the middle of the storm, in the mud! now since then, it has been absolutely dry, hard, no humidity, and very strong winds. this has got to be hard on a hoof.
My plan was to scrape out a few inches of the stalls then have a few loads of DG brought in... maybe i should speed up this plan to happen sooner.
I have also started using "Hoof-Heal" ... out of 5 or 6 feed/tack/supply shops i looked at today, it was the only product that contained any type of wax (this one contains bees wax). I had run out of Rainmaker, but i never saw a difference in over 3 months of using it anyway.
Doug
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 9:41 pm:
Christos:
the fronts are not too bad, but them rear legs... oh my god.. then go for two drafts at one sitting. then throw in an 8 month old colt (that is as big as an arab) that is not quite understanding the picking/farrier thing and decides to simply walk away smiling. ugh!
Now i have learned to cheat, it wont work for farriers, and its not safe at all but i'm stupid and trust my horse. I basically kneel on my knee furthest away from the horse and rest the hoof on my other (up) knee. Still on the side of the horse, not behind him of course. It gives a clear shot to pick and clean, or apply stuff to the hoof (its also a clear shot for the horse to kick a shoulder if he wants). Stupid yes, but it wont send me to the heating pad after a few horses
The next time them farrier supply kids joke about big shoes, ask them when they are going to stop playing with quarterhorses and experience a FULL horse
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004 - 10:21 pm:
The problem with specific recommendations is that we do not have a feel for what can be done with trimming. With lots of sole to work with amazing things can be done in a little bit of time, but if the soles are thin...
Working these feet will break off the exposed split areas, then again maybe that is what is needed. Yes shorten the trimming cycle up to every 5 weeks until you get this under control. Concerning recommendations on trimming the results of these feet speak for themselves, if this is the best he can do, I would be trying someone else. If you do not make Horseweek with this horse, you should go anyway and look for other drafts with good feet then engage their farrier.
I had trouble assesing the hoof/pastern axis in the photos. Though they do not look bad in the first photo without looking at the whole leg you really cannot tell. The pasterns angle with the hoof changes dramatically with whether the leg is propped out front, square under the horse, or behind the square position.
DrO
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 1:19 am:
Years ago, I watched a farrier use an ingenious cradle he'd invented, to shoe his draft clients. It was made of wood, and covered with old heavy felt saddle pads. There was one for the front legs, and a lower one for the back legs. He said that he never had a problem with this and that he used these cradles only on draft horses. They were as low as possible and the horses I saw him do appeared calm and very comfortable - at times, leaning their full weight on the cradle when shifting their position. He would take brakes whenever he or the horse needed it. "You can't hurry the big guys", he'd say, "they'll let you know when they're ready". I once asked him what he did when they refused to pick up their feet? "I make another appointment," he said.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 8:42 am:
Douglas,
I cheat as well, in exactly the same way. Dangerous? Perhaps. But I shoe more than anybody else in the area, sometimes strange horses, and I'm the only one yet to be kicked.
I feel that horses react to restriction, and they are very unlikely to kick if they feel free to just pull away. As a matter of fact, the more free they feel, the better they stand.
How far anyone goes with this depends on a lot of things. In my case, I do not anymore like anybody to be around the horse during shoeing, not even at the halter.
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Member:
Jjet
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 12:05 pm:
Re the cradle, there is a nice one on the market - I saw it at a horse expo and I've seen it advertised in a magazine somewhere. Adjustible also. Never tried it myself, thinking of it though.
About solutions for the flare, what about the staple-type remedy, where a metal clip-like piece is placed on the hoof wall at the top of the crack to stabilize it and left there as it grows out. Also, though I don't think this situation warrants it, there is the filler that hardens in place, (fiberglass maybe?) as a hoof wall grows out.
Re kneeling and then resting the hoof on your other knee-that is what my shoer does when she starts working with a less-cooperative horse. I'll admit it alarmed me at first but she has great success with the method. Of course we're only talking about either a reluctant horse that is otherwise tame or a young one just getting used to the whole idea.
Jan
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 1:30 pm:
dr o...
i understand completely that you cannot get into specifics via internet-pro-tem. but i still greatly appreciate the info we all get here!!!
i think people can learn and my farrier sounds very willing to do so. i can also enlist the help of my vet as they do work together often and they have a long working relationship together. if i'm not happy with his upcoming visit, i'll dump him as soon as i find a replacement.
very few drafts in this town, but there are plenty of farriers. im finding that many of them charge hundreds of dollars for a draft trim (i.e. "i dont want to do it, but if i can screw ya, i will), or flat refuse to work on drafts. i have a few more prospective leads to follow up on today.
i'll be at horseweek one way or the other. i'm sure i can borrow a friends horse if need be. i would never risk the health of my beast. she comes first!
doug
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 3:04 pm:
just curious , why don't farriers like to work on drafts..? i would imagine its the same hoof as any other equine.. ? i can see where a farrier does not want to TEACH your horse to be worked on.. ie: babies,.. and would expect them to stand still, but drafts in general..??
Ann
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 4:05 pm:
Hello everybody,
I do understand the problem so well!! It drives me nuts not finding a good farrier, however, it is not that I am fussy, it is simply that in my neck of the woods horsey vets or farriers do no exhist,however there are so many horses it is scary.
So whilst reading and learning from all of your wonderful people who love your four legged friends, I suddenly thought! although when it comes to horses we are very far from God, when it comes to location we are in Paradise!!
You see, I live on Cozumel Island Mexican Caribben, (check it out on any cozumel web pages of look in on www.gocozumel.com) So, I was wondering if perhaps there is a good, qualified farrier, who is also a bit of an adveturer and would like to combine a good time by the ocean with some work, I can provide a double room in an apartment right bang in the middle of town, 2 blocks from the ocean
Please do let me know if there is a kind, qualified adventuros farrier that would like to come over
Many thanks
Liliana
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Member:
Lanna1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 4:42 pm:
Hey Liliana!
I wish I was a farrier - I'd take you up on your offer in a heart beat! Looks like paradise where you are - I bet you can't imagine our -50 weather?
Anyway, I'm having the same problem, I've been leaving messages for farriers all week to no avail!
Lanna
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 4:50 pm:
I wanted to suggest two barefoot sites to look at:
https://www.ironfreehoof.com
https://www.barefoothorse.com
These sites have great photo galleries so you can see what a balanced foot looks like. A balanced foot is a balanced foot whether it is draft, QH, TB or whatever.
My trimmer works on drafts and the draft horse feet look like any other horse foot.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 4:51 pm:
Hi Ann,
Have you ever had a BIG horse?!! like a Shire may be???!!! No I didnŽt think so...They are trully the most gentle animals I have ever had the pleasure to be around, but, the darlings have really big feet to carry those really big bodies of theirs, some times the size of a dinner plate. In my yard in England we had horses from Falabella to 11hh Welsh to 18hh Shire horses, (needles to say, most of the bits and rugs were custom made) Any how, no matter how much they want to help you picking up their feet (and they will), they are far from Tinker Twinkle belle!!!. So just picking their feet in the morning can knock the breath out of you a bit.
But they are really well worth having them. My daughter who at the time was 8 yo, would "push" the 18hh horse to the fence, jump on his back and ride across the 5 acre field back to the stables, with him wearing only a head collar!!
Yea, Yea, I know I must have been nuts!!! but, I guess we both knew he could be trusted (by the way he was saddly sold in Spondon, Derby UK in 1993 "Tony" bay gelding, hogged mane, slight stringholt on right hind and his freeze mark was E15 if I remember rightly) just in case anyone knows him.
Cheers
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 5:57 pm:
Ann:
my guess is the lack of understanding of these animals, and the pure ratio of draft to other breeds. In my town, there might be 1 draft for every 3000 peanut pushers. I think this leads to them closing their minds and deciding "there is no need".
also, lets face it. draft feet are big and heavy. The leg is heavy. if it takes a farrier 10-15 minutes per foot on a QH, it might take 20-25 on a draft (maybe longer with a high tech shoe)... farriers are used to people "nickle and diming" them. they are not only professionals, but they are in business to make money. many im sure feel like the draft doesnt give the time-to-money ratio they like. Im told that draft shoes rarey use nails due to the weight of the animal and most farriers will "draw out" clips (i.e. heat and pound small lips out from the shoe) to hold them on. this takes time and elbow grease!
now consider that most farriers also own and ride horses, so they are essentially horse people, sooo (stop reading here unless you want to hear my ranting)....
i constantly hear comments that indicate many people are intimidated by (or simply afraid of) the size of the draft. i hear it from horse people, non-horse people, farriers, and vets. living in "Horsetown USA" and interacting with the community nearly daily, i can see by peoples comments, the draft has gotten the reputation of being extremely expensive to keep, needs miles of pasture, and knocks down houses and walls. this is simply not true. Additionally, many people hear "draft" and instantly think of the budwieser clydesdales; those are some absolutely HUGE horses and dont represent the majority of the draft breeds available for pleasure riding. [please note, huge clydes also make excellent pleasure riding horses!]
sure they eat more... one 18hh 2400# clyde might be the same cost as owning two arabs or morgans. when it comes to vaccines, drugs, womers, etc. they need a little more chemical to get the job done, but feed and medication is still normally a ratio of the body wieght. many drafts are under 2000# where a large QH could easily be 1200#.
Lots of people just wont accept that the term "Gentle Giant" was coined for a reason. Drafts are proven to be one of the most calm, even temperment, and "mellow" horses available. (us 40 y/o broken-up-body riders love that part)
They arent for everyone! if you are 4'-11" it might be a little hard to get on without a mounting block; but you might have the same problem on a 16.2 walker or 17hh warmblood.
finally, halters, reigns, blankets, etc might cost a little more... there is a little more fabric. many people think a draft needs a custom $5000 saddle. NOPE! most draft owners stick with a full bar QH saddle and they work fine.
check around the internet. you'll find video and pictures of drafts doing just about every event other horses do... including jumping, dressage, barrels, etc. they aint real fast, but as long as everyone is having fun, thats all that matters!
oh well. thats my rant sorry to waist the bandwidth
Keep on riding!
Doug
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 6:06 pm:
Leah: great sites! thanks!
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 8:38 pm:
If you want to see something TRULY amazing and are willing to invest a bit of money...invest in a book called Making Natural Hoof Care Work For You by Pete Ramey. I know Pete and he and his work are WONDERFUL...
Not only will the book educate you on a noninvasive balanced trim BUT it also has the most excellent picture of his wife's draft horse, Milo.
He is a cart pulling horse (gives rides around town on asphalt), is BAREFOOT and has THE most amazing feet you will ever see...no flares, no cracks and a BAREFOOT working draft horse.
I would highly recommend this book
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 11:46 pm:
Doug, thanks for the education...
one more question tho.. i am understanding according to Liliana, that the draft horse does not like to pick up his hoof and stand on three for any length of time.? i do understand that they are far bigger then my 17 hh horses, with bigger 'dinner plate' hoofs... but can they be taught to lift each hoof for working on them..? it seems that the size is all relative and they should be able to balance too..
sorry for the 'dumb' questions... my 17hh horses lift and hold up a hoof no problem..
Ann
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 11, 2004 - 11:47 pm:
Run an internet search for "hoofjack"--one word. This is a product manufactured for trimming and shoeing and is available in a size for drafts. It's designed by a farrier. I've never used it, but it might be an enticement for farriers reluctant to work on the big 'uns.
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 2:36 am:
Ann...
i dont see much difference in drafts compared to any other horse as far as how long they will hold a leg up. some will hold it up forever, and a few are annoying and figity, and need more training.
the good part is the attention and distraction part of their brains. if a horse is constantly watching every dog, tree limb, bush, feed bag, and other horse eating monster around him, he might forget that his leg is up and someone is under him working. most drafts tend to not care about them monsters. they have that look like "yeah, i could kill that dog with one stomp, i think i'll go back to my nap", this makes things easier sometimes!
mine stands quite nicely until the farrier is done, as well as the entire time i am picking them dinner plates before and after a ride. sometimes we dont even halter the horse for a trim or cleaning.
my colt on the other hand is still learning that when i bend over with the hoof pick, its NOT time to play "steal dads cell phone from his waist". my colt is the websters definition of OVER IMPRINTED LAP DOG.
now occasionally, like any horse, she may feel a little off balance, want to change position, or just move a little and may DrOp her hold on the hoof. I always ask that the hoof stays up until *I* set it down. if i notice her move or twitch a little, i might set it down, give her a moment, and ask for it again. i try to respect her comfort whenever i can. one problem that i have now is whenever i am brushing her feathers, back of her leg, or applying hoof goo, she takes it as a cue and the hoof pops up in my face. i think i goofed somewhere
now the big difference is the power and weight in that leg. i ride friends horses, and we all help each other when the farrier shows up on the street (i think he does 12 of our horses, of maybe 45 total on the street). when a QH or Appy size horse gets finicky, we can normally hold tighter, pull that hoof back into position and say "chill out, i'm almost done!". when a draft decides to move, there is normally no stopping it. if you forget to let the draft get balanced before you pick the leg up, it WILL go down right through your hand and foot.
remember though, i am an equine illiterate still, but my gut feeling is they are just as trainable as any other breed (if not more trainable due to their smooth temperment and lack of spookyness). they have been developed for hundreds of years, for pure power and endurance (picture going to war on them and riding for days, or plowing a zillion acres) and that size does make them less "lofty" and gracefull than say a fru-fru egyptian arab
i encourage everyone to go find someone with a draft, or find a draft farm... and go play!
doug
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 8:41 am:
Doug,
Let's add one more thing about the power in that leg and its effects:
Though it is so powerful that your strenght has zero effect on its intended trajectory, it is also very big and very slow. That means, should a hoof ever fly at you, you'd much prefer this hoof attached to a draft rather than, for example, a thoroughbred.
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 11:07 am:
most definately! slow yes, but god help the person on the receiving end of that hoof if it connects with its target!
I watched our arab buck my wife off and completely remove the ACL from her knee. a week later, he tossed me. it was a blinding fast and violent feeling action. being unprompted and without warning, we were airborne before we could deal with it; especially at our skill levels.
Conversely with the draft... While riding one day in the river bottom, i thought my mare stepped in a hole or stumbled, come to find out the riders behind me said she had bucked and kicked out at a horse behind her that was sniffing her. it was a total non-event in the saddle! i had to laugh.
its funny to watch drafts run bucking around together in the pasture. it takes SOOOO much to get that butt in the air, its like slow motion!
its all relative i think. a QH kick would be like a 2x4 hitting you, a draft would be like a volkswagon hitting you... both would have very painfull and possibly fatal results.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 11:12 am:
Doug,
Your rant really had me up in stiches, it is sooo true that you have to know this big lads to understand them, the bit about the phone, reminded me of my Tony. I am only 5Ž2" so I had to stand on a chair to groom him, and some times heŽd pull the chair from under my feet!! but, there was not a thread of malise on his action, It is sooo true that they love jumping, and dressage and cross country competitions! I gues the only thing that differs a draft to another breed, is the snobby attitude of a TB or a "never let out the stable" competition horse. Žcause after all, even a shetland can be stronger that most men, any horse regardless of the breed or size can really hurt human, if they had it in them... sorry if I bring memories into this discussio, but, I so do miss may mates, here people have yet to discover the wonderful world of the living, thinking and great friend a horse can be!!
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Member:
Jjet
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 12:40 pm:
Doug: I know what you mean about the difference between a real buck (as in, 'You're out of here, a@#$%^e!!!') vs. a lightweight protest kickout. Most horses at one time or another will give the occaissional protest bounce of the rearend if they think they're being pushed unduly. BUT a REAL BUCK is not taken lightly by anyone.
As a relatively cautious rider I hadn't had the pleasure in years, til last summer when my normally sane mare was coming off a long layoff (laminitis), fat as a pig, and yes, I was pushing pretty hard, I was having fun (I guess she wasn't), leaning way out of position. Well, she reminded me how bad it can get. A really powerful horse, she had just never used it that way before. She bucked so hard-my ribs felt broken just from the up and down part. It didn't help that I couldn't fight off the instinct to grab with my legs, thereby spurring her on with every jump. And when I came off I wasn't able to just spring back up, yet this was a soft arena! Talk about being humbled! Though we finished out the day, I ended up with a separated shoulder. No fun at all!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 1:07 pm:
Doug,
A draft's hoof is the least "lethal". The hoof is slow, and the very big surface distributes impact over a much larger area on your body. Where you land after your short flight is of more concern than the kick itself.
A kick from a smaller, fast horse, is less likely to take you off the ground, but double the speed on one third of the surface makes a dramatic difference in the damage inflicted.
Talking kicks and "freestyle" shoeing, always be aware of what the tail is doing. Irritated horses do not swish their tail for fun, it is to be expected that what connects with the end of the tail will connect with the end of the leg as well.
If the horse is "funny", I tie its tail to a neckstrap on the side I am working. It seems to seriously prevent them from kicking.
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Member:
Rjbraun
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 2:05 pm:
I can tell about bucking I HAD A 16 YEAR old App.big 1300lbs very lazy .I got sick of him not wanting to run so I spured him hard boy he come to life bucked I was told about 7 times at times my head was about 12ins of the ground.I stayed on hit the horn and roll,MY ribs were sore for a month.Also I WAS 70 YEARS OLD that was 3years ago still ride.I do not spur that hard any more.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 3:52 pm:
Hey Christos,
I was wondering if it was true, I had been asked by farriers in the past to hold the tail to one side to prevent kicking, I often wondered if it really helped. I know that picking up a foot does not really stop them if they put their mind to it, well... this was an 11hh welch x arab mare who did not like clipping.
And Robert good for you!! It is great to hear that at the ripe age of 73 you sure enjoy life.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 6:08 pm:
It is a difficult subject, Liliana, as I do not want anyone getting hurt by trying my ideas.
But still, I believe that if you tie the tail on a neckstrap on the side you work, the horse will not kick with that hind leg. In a similar mannner, holding the tail in your hand while mounted seems to prevent the horse from bucking. I do not know why, and I have no idea whether it would work with most horses or not. But it has worked perfectly for me with some exceptionally difficult horses.
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Member:
Rjbraun
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 6:26 pm:
Hi Christos when I was young a old cowboy told me the same thing .It works for me, he used to hang it up with a rope when he worked on there feet or legs .
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Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 7:11 pm:
well, lets review...
Fri: find broken hoof, leave message for farrier, hear nothing
Sat: hear nothing, leave another message
Sun: hear nothing, leave another message
Mon: AM, farrier calls "was out of town for a few days" and "cant work in high winds, when the winds stop, we'll compare schedules". Winds continue throughout day
Tue: major winds in morning, taper off late afternoon, hear nothing
Wed: No wind. Hear nothing
Thu: AM some wind, leave another message, PM, winds go nuts again. took off work just in case i could find someone.
called 5 farriers in the last few days. 2 dont return calls, 3 say no to drafts. one comment was "thats like changing a car tire without a jack!". i'll bet if the guy down the street with 7 horses (paints and quarters) called the him, he would be there in minutes. maybe i could pay my vet to walk me through some nipping and filing...
MORONS and FLAKES! (yup, now i'm getting annoyed)
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 12, 2004 - 8:54 pm:
HI DOUG
JUST IN CASE ON THIS CLUB THEY HAVE SOME FARRIER SCHOOLS THAT THEY RECON IN SIX WEEKS YOU CAN LEARN! IŽD LOVE TO TAKE SOME BUT AS YOU KNOW I AM MILES AWAY
BEST OF LUCK
LILIANA
SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITALS BUT THEY LOCKED UP ON ME
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 3:43 am:
Doug,
It sounds like you'll have to do it yourself.
DrO has an excellent article on correct trimming, why don't you print it out and ask your vet to supervise and guide you through the procedure?
You don't have to finish the job in one go. Take it easy and gradually, trimming a little every week. That way any mistakes won't be serious, and you'll slowly develop all the feeling and accuracy needed.
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 7:59 am:
Just for fun I thought you might like to seepictures of my friends Belgian. Look at THESE draft feet
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 8:01 am:
One more
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 10:28 am:
Doug,
Have you tried going to the sister sites "The Farrier and Hoofcare Resource" and "The Anvil"? You might also want to "Google" search for farrier finder and see what you turn up. A hoof is a hoof is a hoof no matter what the size of the horse.
I suspect a lot of these guys just don't want to do draft horses because of their size and they would need to carry extra large shoes in their inventory. Another reason might be because of their size it is extremely hard on the farrier's back. Hope this helps.
Susan B.
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Member:
Sefiroth
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Posted on Friday, Feb 13, 2004 - 9:17 pm:
It was fun to read all the stuff about drafts, since I've had my own first draft for the last year and also have played phone tag with farriers. My guy was diagnosed with EPSM so doing his back feet was a little hard. My farrier has a home made cradle type thing that people above were talking about. His hoof stand is a hollow piece of steel pipe welded to a very wide circular base. He took the toe of a draft horse shoe and welded a 4 inch tab to it so it made a "Y" shape. He just DrOps that into his hoof stand, picks up a back foot, and rests the toe in the curve of the "Y".
I used to work for a carriage company that used all draft horses. I've known many draft horses that will pick their feet up for you, but wont hold their feet up for you. I too used to rest the foot on a knee to pick them clean, but only with horses I knew and trust. Heck with one big guy I always had to use a plastic foot stool to groom anything above the top 1/3 of his rib cage. To get from one side to another, I'd kick the stool underneath him between his legs to his other side, then follow it myself. He was the best horse. He'd line himself up nearly by himself, just perfect to be hitched to the carriage, would stop and stand anywhere any time for any length of time, knew what the paint meant on the pavement (how to stay in his own lane and how to change lanes with just a little tug of the lines), and was literally bomb proof. You could drive this horse with fireworks going off a block away and he'd just keep chugging. He knew all the routes (and all the shortcuts!) you could just sit back and talk to your ride all you wanted without having to focus every bit of your attention on keeping from getting yourself, your horse, and your rides killed. I loved that horse. Always tried to talk the owner into selling him but he was the owners favorite horse too. He should be retired about now and living the well earned good life.
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New Member:
Socaldug
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:06 pm:
I had forgotten about this thread. Fun to read throught it again. Since so many discussions dont show the final results or closure, I thought I would do an update. Since last year I have...
1. fired the first farrier
2. hired another
3. fired the second farrier
4. hired another
5. ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE THIRD FARRIER!
The second farrier pulled a stupid one. He lit his forge when the mares nose was literally 6" from it. This sent the horse into another galaxy and from that point forward, she needed Demorsadan (tranquilizer) to do anything with farriers. Over a few months I worked with the horse and slowly decreased the drugs during trimmings, but she still had a hate for anyone carrying rasps and wearing chaps I could still do anything with her feet, but she trusted nobody else. This really pi**ed me off, she was always very good for the farrier.
Farrier #3 came in and basically said "I will spend whatever time it takes to make her trust me." he would also say "this is my last client of the day, is it ok to spend a little more fun time with her?" After some play time, attention time, and a couple LONG days for them, it started to work.
By his third visit, she was not only back to normal, but better. No drugs, no food, and get this... NO HALTER OR ROPES! The farrier and the mare chat for a few minutes, out in the arena, and he goes to work.
It gets even better! What he did for the hooves in 2 trimmings, the other two could not do in 9 months! Barefoot and zero flare. Heels look great too.
Here's the real kicker. He charged HALF what the last guy did! two draft trims, under $100. I do tip well, and always have a cold beer for him when he's done (he wont drink during work, due to liability concerns... which i can appreciate)
He doesnt do many other drafts and does not carry equipment or supplies to shoe them (big shoes are not cheap and require a bigger hammer and anvil i guess). If in the future she needs shoes, I offered to buy the supplies he might need and have them available. He replied "we'll figure something out".
If anyone is in the Inland Empire and needs a farrier, I would HIGHLY recommend him!
Thanks for letting me update this with a happy ending.
Doug
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 5:23 pm:
Doug, so great yu finally got a good farrier! It makes all the difference! When we first moved to Utah I went through 4 farriers before I found one I liked. Boy, he gets hot coffee and warm banana bread in the a.m., ice tea and cookies in the afternoon, a beer in the evening, he can bring his kids and I'll babysit while he works.......you get the picture!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:42 am:
Doug, what a great ending to your story! I have a Clydesdale mare and can totally identify with finding the 'right' farrier!
Thanks for putting a smile on my face this morning!
dyd
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Member:
Zoe
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Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 7:15 am:
DOug, glad you got the right farrier! YOur never comfortable with the wrong kind of farrier! Glad to see a happy ending! Makes me smile!
Z
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