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Discussion on Is this gelding still a stallion?
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New Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004 - 12:42 pm:
I just purchased a supposedly gelded pony. He was left a stallion well into maturity and has all the attributes of stallions. I was told he was gelded about 1 year ago. When I got him home he was showing all the signs of still being a stallion including trying to mount over fences and nearly killing my 2 year old gelding. I have him separated now and have taken a very close look at the area where his testicles would be. He still has a distended bag with no visible or feelable scarring that I would expect from a castration proceedure. My concern now is that he was never gelded and is a bilateral cryptorchid stallion. My question is this would there be visible scarring from the castration and would the bag have shrunk by now if he was truely gelded? Please advise, so I know whether to call the vet ASAP. By the way in the 4 days he has been here 2 of my 3 mares have come into heat.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004 - 1:31 pm:
Hi Laura,
My stallion was gelded at the age of 12 or 13 and it does seem to take a bit over a year, either for the tetostenone to come out of their system or for them to forget about what their doodles were for.
If he is a "rig" (one testicle left inside) then in my humble opinion, you will need a vets advice, but, if he was properly gelded, then... what worked with mine was to leave him with the mare; she was a bit blunt with him and told him the truth about things.
Now she flirts with my yearling colt, unfortunatly I cannot have him gelded as we are waiting for both testies to DrOp.
Best of luck
Liliana
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 7:10 am:
After a year I don't think you can tell by looking at the scrotum: you should have the horse tested. The article associated with this forum describes the process.
DrO
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 19, 2004 - 9:08 am:
Yes I will be having him tested. I worry that the operation would be cost prohibitive if both testicles are in the abdomonal cavity. After I posted yesterday I watched him for a while in a round pen with very high boards and only small spaces between them. My very old TB mare walked over to the pen and promptly put her fanny in this nose, she is now of course in heat. He went wild with excitement and actually seemed to have a rather large discharge (trying to be delicate here with the discription)come from his penis.
By the way I did read the article before posting and it was very helpful in describing the operation and recovery. I am so glad I rejoined this site. It is worth every penny. Thanks a bunch for the help and I will keep you posted.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 20, 2004 - 6:50 am:
Welcome back Laura,
DrO
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 2:11 pm:
Thanks for the welcome back!
On the above discussion I have had this pony tested using the Testostorone level test. I waited patiently for 5 days for the test results and this is what they read. The amount of HCG used to produce these results was 3000 units which I believe is half of the recomendation in your article. His initial blood test revealed a testostorone level well into the stallion range of 576pg the blood drawn after the HCG was given came back 537pg. My thought here is that based on the initial pg reading he is definitly a cryptorchid however my vet seems to feel that the HCG should have elevated the testostorone level instead of decreased it. I asked him to perform the additional test related in your article but he could find no one he knew that had ever performed it on a horse. I have asked him to retake the blood using 6000 units of HCG and see if that brings the level up. He is opposed to operating on this horse based on the original finding but I am of the opinion that the ponies level of testostorone puts him well within stallion permitters and we should perform the surgery. The testes would definitly be located in the abdomenal wall since a palpation of the scrotem and rings revealed no signs of testes in that area.
What is your take on this matter?
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 11, 2004 - 8:08 pm:
I guess it was a bit of an unwelcome surprise, stallions are not really such monsters if trained properly, however if you decide to have him gelded I would suggest that you really research for an experienced vet, it is a very delicate operation, and your boy could end up with serious damage or worse peritonitis (I am not sure how you spell it)
Best of luck
Liliana
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 7:39 am:
Hello Laura,
Quite a little dilemma. I agree with a number that high I would have thought stallion but he should have responded to the HCG. I am uncertain about the 3,000 vs 6,000 that may be the problem but I also wonder if there is a lab problem?
I think you can have a spun sample sent to BET Labs for estrone sulfate:
1501 Bull Lea Rd,
Ste 102,
Lexington, KY 40511
PHONE: 859/273-3036
DrO
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 10:12 am:
There is a possiblity of lab error and I have discussed this with the Vet. That was the reason for pulling a second test. My big problem now is that I am having quite a difficult time getting this Vet to contact me. I have to call or go over there to get even the slightest bit of information regarding this pony and he has now been confined to a stall for 2 weeks straight at the Vets place of business. I plan on picking the boy up today and just opting for a second opinion from another Vet.
I have a feeling if I go to him with the estrone sulfate test he would disregard it as he disregarded the steriod test simply because he couldn't find anyone else that had performed it.
If I had just had them check him for testostorone levels and not done the HCG test would in your opinion with a pg of 576 considered him a stallion and arrange to do the surgery? Also, since the testes are in the abdomenal area how would the surgeon know where to find the testes or would he/she simply dig around for them and hope they pop out easy?
I think I will re-read the article though incase I missed something.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 11:49 am:
Laura
As I mentioned on my previous post, it is indeed a very serious and delicate surgical intervention, It will be worth you while to find a vet that has experience in this sort of surgery, horses are big, and to have them flat on their belly to perform the operation is not piece of cake!
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2004 - 5:08 pm:
Hmmm - not that this will really help, but here's my story.
I purchased - at auction - a FABULOUS palomino QH gelding (supposedly. . . .). It was OBVIOUS after getting him home why he had gone to auction, after he was exposed to a few mares. Ahem.
Anyway, I (just as you did), had him tested up the wazoo for testosterone level, etc., & regardless of his outward behavior, tests showed his level just within the "high side of normal" - whatever that means.
In the end what it meant was that I couldn't get a vet to guarantee they'd find anything once they "went in there" - which is perfectly understandable.
I opted to go for broke (I didn't pay that much for him at auction) & have surgery done ($1,000). They did in fact find a large, perfectly normal abdominal testicle.
It definitely made a difference in my guy's behavior. Yes, he is still studly in some ways & is turned out alone - but that is just because of the group I have now. When I was boarding him, so long as he was turned out with horses that would stand up to him, he was fine. I just don't have that sort of group here.
Have to say that one "plus" having him around (besides the fact that he's a "dream" to ride), is that he is an EXCELLENT teaser. I have the sort of un-marey mares where it's really difficult to tell when they're in season - which is GREAT for most of the year. However, when breeding season rolls around, all I have to do is let my mares touch noses with my gelding & I know IMMEDIATELY what the status is.
I feel really lucky to have the best of both worlds.
Getting back to your problem - I'd opt for the exploratory surgery if that's an option for you. My horse is 100% nicer to be around, even though he did have excellent manners to begin with. It just makes your options having him around more expansive.
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2004 - 8:32 pm:
Hi Liliana, I am really worried now because this Vet has mentioned that the horse would actually be turned over more on his back for this surgery not on his belly. Are you certain that is the position for this operation?
Hi Bonita,
Like you guy this little boy is a dream to ride very responsive and he also pulls a cart as a bonus. He is 13hh which around here is a hard to come by size in ponies unless you want to spend over $5000.00 for one. I do realize now that I was fleeced regarding the two ponies I got from this woman and I blame myself for not asking more questions and taking more time, I have 30 years of experience behind me in buying, training and selling horses so I should have known better. I guess I forgot that there are unscrupulous and outright dishonest traders out in the world. There redeeming qualities are that they are both very sound and healthy and will with a lot of time and in the stallions case money make really great ponies. I am concerned about the price of the surgery and have been getting quotes of no more than $500.00 to do it. I would have to assist in most of the grunt work to keep it affordable. I do worry that I will have to go to Gainesville though and that would most likely price me out of the surgery and then I don't know what I would do. The second test was done and I will most likely have the results back by Monday and we will see. I do feel though that since the testostorone level on the first draw was so high even before the HCG that I am dealing with a Cryptorchid. Hey... I have had a problem thinking of a name for this guy. I think I'll call him Crypto-nite!!lolololo
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 14, 2004 - 8:13 am:
Laura (Liliana) - first of all, the surgery involved is NOT done with the horse lieing on his "belly", it is done with hime lieing on his back.
My horse's surgery was performed at one of the local equine hospitals, which is DEFINITELY where something like this SHOULD be performed. This is NOT the sort of thing you want done out in your yard somewhere, even if a vet would want to do it there. I was able to watch the surgery from the hospital's viewing gallery above the operating room, & even though there was only one "stray" testicle involved, the procedure was quite intricate & involved the horse being under general anaesthesia for around 2 hours & therefore requiring the constant monitoring & supervision of a qualified equine anaesthetist - not the horse owner. The horse was on his back on the operating table with his legs tied up & away from the surgical site(s). Four small incisions were made & the surgeon inserted a tube (with a a camera on the end) into each incision & was able to look inside via a television-type monitor (as was I in the viewing gallery). Once the testicle was found, the surgeon inserted operating tools through two of the other incisions, & with the help of two surgical assistants, manipulated the tools & the camera so as to be able to incise the testicle & any other testicular material through the remaining incision. (The surgeon asked me if I wanted to take the testicle home & use it as a paperweight, but I politely declined. . . .) Incisions were stitched up, horse was wheeled to the recovery room, & I was able to pick him up & take him home the following morning. A couple of weeks later, my regular vet came & removed the stitches & that was the end of it.
Actually, the hardest part of the whole thing was not being able to give the horse ANYTHING to eat for 48 hours prior to the surgery. Water only. He was SO unhappy about that.
While cost probably depends on where you live & which hospital you utilize, I will give you one big caveat - try to get price quotes IN WRITING. I was originally quoted $700-$1,000 by 3 people at the place I used, & even though nothing extraordinary happened during the procedure, I was presented with a bill for $1,300. I did raise all holy hell about it, & I did eventually get a $300 refund from the hospital (I think they realized that the horse world is a small one & $300 was a small price to pay to avoid bad publicity. . . . ).
Anyway - to make a long story short, after going thru this situation first-hand, I again must say that in my opinion this is NOT something that should be performed out in your barn with you "doing the grunt work". Far too much can go wrong.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 7:04 am:
There are 2 operations that can be done for abdominal cryptorchids. If there is just one testicle and the location known there is a standing operation where a incision is placed in the flank. When the position is unknown or there are 2 testicles, positioning the horse on his back for a ventral abdominal incision is best.
DrO
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 8:43 am:
Bonita
You should have taken the testicle. Its funny that the surgeon asked. When I had Tonka gleded, I asked for them (My vet thought me a bit strange). They are preserved and make a great conversation piece.
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 12:43 pm:
Well I don't really know what to do. Last night I got a call from another vet that I use periodically and he told me that a reading of 576 pg could be produced even if the horse was gelded. From everything I have read there is no way a reading that high could be produce by anything other than testicular tissue. I was also informed that it would be approx. $2500.00 to perform this surgery which is way, way out of my price range. Also I would have to drive 2 1/2 hours to either Ocala or Gainesville to have this surgery performed. In addition there is apparently no way to know if he is bilateral or mono cryptorchid without going on a hunt and seek through his gut. I would have to leave him in Ocala or Gainesville and pick him up when he was able to travel the 2 1/2 hours back. I could opt for this Vet to do the surgery in as sterile environment as possible in which case he gauranteed me that he would not charge me over $500.00. In either case the horse is not safe to have around other horses since he is so aggressive towards passive geldings and could not be around mares at all. I would not be comfortable selling him in this state and I don't want anyone else handling him for fear of what might happen if he decided to become aggressive towards people. What it seems I am left with is to have him put down.
Any other thoughts as to what to do with the guy?
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 2:17 pm:
I have great news!!! The second HCG test came back double what it was before and the Vet talked to Gainesville and they agree that he is definitly cryptorchid. The University at Gainesville Large animal surgery will do the surgery (Laproscopic) and the three day stay for only $600.00 total. Well within my price range and worth the drive. I can't tell you all how relieved I am to finally have a confirmed reading and a date for his surgery which is this Friday. I just want to break down and cry from relief and happiness. I will keep you all informed on how the surgery goes and his recovery and hopeful attitude adjustment. Thanks for everyones input on this and keep us in your prayers for a safe surgery and recovery.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 2:24 pm:
Thank goodness and what a relief this must be for you!
Please let us know how things go on Friday.
Wishing you all the best.
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 4:46 pm:
What wonderful news for you, I know how waiting on an answer can drive a person insane! Let us know the outcome.
Good luck and God Bless,
Lorrie
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 6:20 pm:
Laura - having "been there", I couldn't possibly be happier for you!!!!
What made the hospital change it's mind? The higher test count? Also, who the heck gave you the $2,500 estimate???? Geez Louise - since this was/is elective surgery, I went around & got quotes from every equine hospital within a reasonable drive from me (& there are PLENTY in Virginia), & no one even came CLOSE to being as expensive as that. The very highest quote I recieved, which they based on having to search endlessly for hours & hours for testicular material, was $1,200. And keep in mind that my gelding's test results were "high/normal", which all the vets I spoke with said they find in like, 7 out of 10 geldings - so nothing confirmative there.
I find the $2,500 quote given you VULGAR, to say the least.
Again - I'm so happy for you - & happy that you can have it done at an equine hospital instead of at your barn.
Do let us know how everything comes out.
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 6:26 pm:
Oh, & one more thing. Although I am sure the vets will also tell you this, it may take awhile for your guy's behavior to "settle down". My gelding was six when he was operated on, & it took a good solid 6-8 months before he showed different behavior.
And do keep in mind that a lot of "learned" behavior may NEVER change. My gelding still has to be turned out alone, as he is still a little too hostile to my young boys & far, far too amorous with the girls. In fact, as I said, he's a good "teaser" for my breeding program - lol!
When I boarded he was able to go out with other geldings so long as they were the type who would stand up to him & "kick his ass", so to speak. However, any wusses who would run from him got chased into oblivion - or fences - so I just gave up & turn him out alone now that I have my own place.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2004 - 8:20 pm:
hi just my 2 cents worth. I had a gelding who was standing at stud before I got him so he served plenty of mares. We did not think he was good enough for a stud horse so was gelded for a riding horse for me. He always acted a bit studdish. He would fall in love with a particular mare and would be frantic when he left her. Other than that he was a wonderful horse. Most of his behaviour was learned also. Just made his personality a little different.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 6:13 am:
You might be surprised to hear the learned stallion behavior is a controversial subject. For a interesting study and discussion on the learned vs hormone-related behavior of studs gelded after they are mature see the article on castration associated with this forum.
DrO
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Member:
Bethyg2
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 12:57 pm:
Hi- just to add to the cryptorchid conversation, I have a mini with one testicle DrOpped so far, and the vets quoted me a price of $1000 for the operation. (we don't want to operate anytime soon as my little guy has other issues) They are in S Fla. (wellington) and I think they are pretty cutting edge, like U of Florida. Palm Beach Equine Clinic is the name. I would trust them to do the operation if you are anywhere in S Fla.because a long drive might be stressful after fasting, etc. I recently got to see their operationg rooms and they look very up to date, lots of machines that go "ping," and they have a fine reputation in the area, also they seem to be in touch with the vets at U of Fla., and operate on many of Wellington's show jumpers.So it is definitely an option here in S. Fla. They have been very reasonable with me, given the fact that my colt had pneumonia and I called them every day for about 2 weeks. They were at my house almost every other day, and the bill didn't knock me off my feet- I was surprised.
My experience with the U of Fla. was OK, I had a welsh pony colic and spend three days there last year, and just as we got there they tubed him and a student tried it about 4 times and almost caused him to choke to death- finally I said something (through my tears) and the doctor did it himself on the first try. It is my opinion that at the U of Fla you really have to BE THERE and be that horse's advocate. To their credit they saved the pony. It is just that they do have students who will work on your horse....which is sometimes OK and sometimes not OK -Beth Gordon
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 6:20 pm:
Well my nightmare never ends!!! I tried to pick my pony up from the Vets place today and was quoted an astronomical price of $576.00 for services. Needless to say I was flabbergasted and asked for a breakdown. They told me it was for the tests plus board care at which point I told them that the Vet assured me that he would not be charging me for board since I really didn't want to leave him there in the first place. I also brought a bag of feed and a bale of hay to cover any feed he might eat and that should have been enough to last him for minimum of 20 days. The Vet (himself), also informed me that the test only cost $45.00 to run. After asking them to speak with the Vet regarding this fees I called back a few hours later to be told that my bill was now $296.00 and again I asked them to break it down since according to the prices I was quoted the bill should only be at the most $100.00. I was told that the Vet didn't know what the prices were and should never have told me what I would be paying in the first place.!? I asked them to break down what they were charging me and after leaving me on hold for about 10 minutes came back and said that the Testostorone test was $244.00 each, $144.00 per vial of blood to be tested and that he was only charging me for one test and wasn't that generous of him, of course the first test was not properly done according to him when we decided to draw the blood again. The remaining amount was his costs for the initial check which he told me before I brought the horse to him was $40.00 and for a helper to draw the blood and so on and so forth. Well needless to say I was not happy about being gouged by the billing dept of this guy. I asked several times to speak to the Vet and was refused and asked if they would make payment arrangements since I could not afford that amount, especially since I was told a price about 3 times lower in the first place. I asked for the labs phone number since they told me he was only charging the lab costs and was refused that information. I was told that I could not make payment arrangements under any circumstances and that I either pay it all or I can't pick up the horse. I don't know what to do now I feel that I was quoted a price that should be honored and I was quoted that price by the owner of this establishment. I will tell you that there was a woman that works for this Vet that expressed that she would be interested in purchasing this pony from me but after telling her that I wanted what I paid for the horse she said it was to much since the horse would also need to have surgery and that I should take less. I am wondering now if there is some kind of collusion going on between the billing office and this woman in order to get this horse for free. As it stand they can just keep the horse since I have already had to sell another to pay for the surgery for only what I paid and considering what I paid for this pony and what I have to pay this Vet and the hospital for surgery by the time all is said and done the pony is more of a liability than an asset. I have thought about recourse regarding the misrepresentation by the seller but have found that she has everything she owns in Trust so to sue her to take the horses back and refund my money is of no use. Well sorry for blabbering on but it beats crying over this nightmare I guess, even though I will cry later tonight. Well this is where it is at. So unless there is any positive information I am not going to post about this matter anymore it is really too depressing. Thank you all for the input and help and sharing your knowledge with me. Thanks Dr. O for providing people like me a place to come to learn about and discuss important topics.
Laura Miller
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 6:45 pm:
I am SO sorry to hear this Laura - but really not surprised at all. This is why I INSIST on all quotes for elective procedures IN WRITING. I understand that this cannot be done with an emergency situation, but for elective stuff, I expect a WRITTEN QUOTE. I can get one from a human hospital - I expect to get one from an animal hospital.
And it is also an unfortunate fact that vets shouldn't be spouting out price info unless authorized to do so. I found that out the hard way at the Marion duPont Scott Equine Medical Center in Leesburg, VA. Just like you experienced, I had two vets there verbally quote me low prices, & then got lambasted by their billing department - who told me the vets had absolutely no authority to provide pricing information, & that anything they told me was invalid.
Although I have gotten money back from them, I had to raise quite a loud & obnoxious, decidedly unladylike stink to do so. And also wrote a scathing letter to all parties involved, intimating that I would make the entire situation public knowledge unless I received some satisfaction. If I were you, I would take the bull by the horns as well. Have your cry - then get to your computer & start typing.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 7:21 pm:
Laura,
It is quite a shock I am sure, but it is a delicate procedure, not a normal castration therefore the care needed is a lot more elaborated, perhaps your vet gave you an estimated cost, as really I have always found that they cannot really pin down a price on a delicate procedure.
Perhaps one consilation would be that you your horse is alive and well, cutting corners in medicine can result in fatalities and believe me that hurts even more.
Try to look at it from a positive note, you did not pay much for a lovely horse at auction so I guess it evens it up.
Keep smiling, life is too short!
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 8:16 pm:
By the way,
Of course what I meant to say was belly up, it would be vertually impossible to have a horse on his belly... mmm well perhaps if it was related to Bambi....
All the best
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 - 9:16 pm:
Well I wasn't going to talk about this any longer but here it goes. The problem with the current bill is that it is not for the surgery to remove the testicles. That surgery would be done in Gainesville at the University. The pony hasn't gotten that far yet. This bill is just for the test to see if he was Cryptorchid. I was quoted a price of $45.00 by the owner of the practice it is a one Vet show. He owns the building the barn and he lives there on the premises, he has no one to answer to. The told me they were only charging me what the lab charged them but they wouldn't give me the labs number. I don't believe that the test cost anywhere close to what they are quoting me. I called a different vet and asked him what he charged for the test and he told me that is was $45.00, I asked if he was sure and he said yes that is what they charge for the test. This whole episode concerning this stay with this Vet has not been good. I couldn't get answers without calling them 4 or 5 times and the Vet never called me when I left messages. I even had to resort to calling him at 11:00pm at night when he was working emergency just to be told he had a call into the university and didn't know anything yet. I will never deal with this guy again and will never recommend him. I am thinking about reporting him to whatever business or professional association governs fair and ethical practises of Vets.
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 8:55 am:
This episode was just for the TEST???? I paid a whopping sum of $60 to have mine done. I don't care if your vet has a direct pipeline to God - there is no way this test costs what he is charging you. Talk about a gouging markup!
In addition to reporting him to the powers that be, I would still send him (addressed to him personally) a certified, return receipt letter outlining everything you've stated here.
All I can say is, he's a very lucky man that "I" wasn't his client. I decidedly do NOT play nice when I've been taken advantage of.
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 9:38 am:
Bonita,
I usually don't play well with crooks either but as I was driving over yesterday to have a nuclear meltdown in the office. I decided that instead I would just pick up my personal items like halter and lead rope and let them have the pony. If this Vet dosen't have the professional curtesy to honor his own verbally quoted prices then he can deal with the pony which at this point is totally useless. When he is ready to call me and discuss the situation in an ethical manner then I will talk with him. His staff is nasty and rude and refuse to speak to me any further and refuse to put me through to the Vet to speak to him, so he can deal with it.
As far as the cost you are absolutely right they are gouging me up the you know what. I called numerous different vets and the University of Florida to ask what they charge for the test and I got answers from $21.00 to no more than $50.00 for this test. The $21.00 was from the University and they send this particular test out to a contracted lab since they don't run it on campus. None of the people I spoke with could believe what I was telling them this practice was charging me.
Believe me though I am still stewing over this and I am very upset especially since I had to sell a horse for cost, one that I hated to part with, to pay for the surgery in Gainesville. I have lost the money I paid for the pony while not much to begin with it is still a loss. I run a business and my business is buying, training and selling horses so if I put out money for a horse it is money that I hope to recoup when the horse is ready to sell. I think I am going to get on the phone now and call a couple of Vets to find out where they would send this test to be done and then call the lab for pricing.
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 11:16 am:
Well Laura, you certainly are more familiar with your particular situation than any of us.
However, if it were me, I wouldn't give the vet the satisfaction of simply getting to keep the pony in lieu of payment. All he has to do is send your pony to an auction or for slaughter & simply write off your non-payment as a bad debt - minus whatever amount he gets for the animal. No skin off his nose to be sure.
I'd think this through before I just let it slide.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 12:47 pm:
Laura
Living in a place where horses are considered machines that work for 2 or 3 years and then when they finally collapse and cannot go on any more get sold on for meat, believe me I do sympathize with you. I know how frustrating it is not to be able to get good service.
The way a managed to get my boy fixed was looking in the net and I found the Equine Veterinary Association and if Mexico has one, there has to be a Veterinary association that you can contact and get references, and written quotes
To castrate my stallion I paid $500.00 US plus travelling expenses, as there are no vets here, the surgery was done with him on his feet did not feel a thing and lasted some 30 mins as it was a straight forward opeation. But the good news is that by this I gained a lovely horse a good friend as this vet is excellent in both professionally way and as a person, so in my neck of the woods were equine vet do not exist, to me it has been of great help as if I get into an emergency I can call him on the phone and he will explain to me what the procedure is and thanks to him I was able to save the life of my yearling colt a few months back.
It really is worth spending the time researching, than being taken on by the millions of con artists of this world that will cash in the inexperienced trust worthy people like us.
Hang in there, all the best
Liliana
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 1:48 pm:
Laura
This is terrible. After hearing this I will definately get quotes in writing if I find myself in a similar situation. I'll be darned if I would let them have my horse though. I dont care if I had to camp outside the office with big nasty signs, notify every newspaper and radio station and every equine group I could or break in a take my horse back. I cant imaging a vet not arranging payments especially in your situation where you were given a quote before hand, even if it wasnt in writing. Are sure it is legal for them to hold your pony if you have made and honest effort to arrange payment? I wish you all the luck with your situation.
colleen
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 2:38 pm:
I agree Colleen,
Let's face it. There's a very real chance that the vet could at least get $296 for this pony, even with his little problem. I paid $1,200 for my retained-testicle boy at auction - & if I had been buying him privately from a vet, I probably would have paid a lot more. Buying from a vet gives a lot of folks a false sense of security. In the end, Laura will be the only one losing out here.
But again, as I said before, Laura is the only one completely knowledgeable about the situation.
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 2:51 pm:
I do hope that these words are only your frustration and anger "decided that instead I would just pick up my personal items like halter and lead rope and let them have the pony". "deal with the pony which at this point is totally useless"
it would be very unfair from your part to let the poor animal pay the price of your own mistake; you say you have 30 years experience!! Well, from wherever you want to look at it, it was your mistake and not the pony’s you mention that they are hard to come by in you area, perhaps you should give him to someone more capable to deal with the situation.
I am sorry but I detest unscrupulous horse dealers that just dump the "problem" on to someone else, so long as they do not have to admit being at fault! WE ARE TALKING OF A LIVING SENSITIVE ANIMAL HERE. Not just your moneys worth
Liliana
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Member:
Bonita
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 3:29 pm:
I would hope so too Liliana.
Dealer or not, $296 is a DrOp in the bucket as far as vet bills go. My gripe with Laura's bill is that she was quoted far, far less by the vet performing the test.
However, I do agree with you that someone who has "30 years of experience" (as I do also) in the horse business probably shouldn't be so quick & cavalier about leaving this "mistake" behind.
If I were in Laura's place, I would pay the $296 bill, bring the pony home, & THEN launch my "attack" on the vet in question. Like I said before, just leaving the pony behind is not in the best interests of the pony or Laura. And, as the testicle surgery is elective, Laura does have the option of keeping the pony around for a few months to help save up for his surgery. If, as Laura states "a bag of grain & a bale of hay" will last this pony a "minimum of 20 days" (which I personally find a bit scary - the grain, maybe, but one bale of hay for TWENTY DAYS??), then he is obviously an EXTREMELY EASY KEEPER, & his basic expenses are apparently very minimal.
Plus the fact that he is "a dream to ride & drives as well"? As a business person I certainly wouldn't be "giving" that pony away to anybody.
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2004 - 5:23 pm:
Of course I have no intention of leaving this guy with this vet if I can help it. I will not however pay the $296.00 up front for this service. I have paid bills up front that were wrong and find that once paid thelegal system tends to find that you must have agreed with the price or you never would have paid in the first place. I tried again today to speak with the Vet but again I was told no and that I should just pay the price and pick the horse up. I informed them of my search to find out what the fair and customary charges for this test were and the billing lady contradicted herself by telling me that the Vet could charge what ever he felt like charging. That is an about face from yesterday when she told me he had no business telling me how much he was going to charge. As for the feed and hay yes a 50lb bag of feed and a compressed bale of hay that weights 150lb should last a pony that stand about 13hh and weighs in at approx. 700lb and is standing without exercise in a box stall 20 days.
I spent today filling out a complaint with the department of professional regulations. I spoke with a friend of mine that is an attorney while not in the exact field he new enough to know that the Vet must honor a verbally quoted price regardless of what the lab charges since it is his business and his responsiblity to know or find out before what the costs are associated with the care of the horse. I did not and have not abandoned the horse since I have visited the barn and taken care of cleaning his stall and making sure he had food and water. The horses stall has been padlocked since I was there last night and I have been informed that if I step foot onto the property for any reason other than to pay the bill I will be arrested. I have been screamed at, lied to, and threatened by both the office bookkeeper and the Vet himself now. (I just got off the phone with the Vet himself who called me screaming about who do I think I am keeping him hopping for two weeks and harrassing his staff for two weeks and either pay or he is keeping the horse and calling his attorney. I didn't even have a chance to say one word before he hung up after yelling "Are you going to pay me?, Are you going to pay me?, Are you going to pay me?." click he hung up and didn't even wait for me to say yes or no.")
well,
He can not take my horse to auction without first having this resolved either professionally or through litigation. I have drafted a letter to him and sent it certified, return receipt stating my concerns regarding the verbally quoted price and the final bill. Also in this letter is a paragraph concerning the assistant of his that expressed interest in buying the pony from me but then said I wanted to much. It was directly after that I was given the inflated price. The Vet told me himself either pay up or I am keeping the horse. My witness to his original quote is a close personal friend of his and also the person who recommended him to me. I asked her if she would sign an affidavit stating what he told me and she said that do to the fact that he is a family friend she would not be able to help me out since she has known him longer than me. His father was present also but I can't honestly remember if he was there when he quoted me the price.
I work extremely hard for my money and all of you do also. $296 dollars to me is a lot of money and represents more than a DrOp in the bucket. I prefer not to get into a screaming match with these people. I will follow what ever legal and ethical avenues are available to me but I won't steal the horse off the property, I won't rant and rave in the middle of his office on carry a sign on the side of the road to disturb his ability to conduct business. While I do not in any way condemn any one else for doing these things if they feel they are warranted and do not cross the line of the law. But neither will I allow them to use strongarm tactic and threats to pay a bill that is more than 3 times the original quote.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 5:33 am:
Laura,
This horse is still, legally, in your hands.
Sell it as a stallion (!) to a friend of yours, for 5 times his value (It can always be returned later as your friend will not find it as expected). Then present the selling contract to a lawyer, complaining that you're losing all the profit you have been expecting from this horse because this vet won't let go, and sue him, claiming a compensation for the losses he's causing to you with his outrageous attitude.
Though I am not familiar with legal details in your area, I do not believe that this guy will ever think of presenting his attitude in a court of law, neither do I believe that he can legally support his claims.
Best of luck,
Christos
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Member:
Goolsby
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 8:38 am:
Laura
I admire your restraint. It sounds like you are going about things the right way. I wish I could say I would be able to handle this situation as well as you. Please keep us updated and if there is anything that can be done to help you(writing letters, emails, etc.)Im am willing to help.
Colleen
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Member:
Lanna1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 1:25 pm:
Laura,
I feel for your position right now & my mouth is still wide open while digesting everything that you've been through with this Vet!
Colleen is right, it sounds as though you are handling it in a professional manner, unlike the clinic keeping your pony at randsom! Unbelievable!
I'm guessing they realize they've gone too far but are too far into it now to back up and admit their mistakes and let you have your pony back. There must be some legal venue you can use - don't give up, this is a matter of right and wrong!
It's gone far beyond the point of $$$ now! What about going public with your story? Talk to the newspapers, television, both in your area and outside the area! That'll get people hopping alright - get the media involved & everyone will know how you've been treated.
Not to mention, you're going to miss your appointment to have this pony gelded! Yeesh...
I'm thinking the media may be the fastest way to get your story out there & someone may offer help once they've heard it!
There must be some way to get your pony back & give the Vet clinic the publicity they deserve! ouch!!!
May sound a little vendictive, but I work very hard for every penny too & it peeves me when I hear of places like this who are trying to strong arm us little guys!
Good luck with it & please keep us posted with your progress!
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Member:
Bethyg2
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 2:00 pm:
Here's my 2 cents: time to fight fire with fire- brandish your credit card, pay with that, then dispute the bill with the credit card company later. That is what I would do. I wouldn't tell them you are planning to do it, but my main concern would be getting back possession of your pony. Maybe even a small claims declaratory action after the fact. But I would NOT let anyone ransom my horse over a questionable bill that was way over the quoted amount. If you didn't agree to that price when you DrOpped off the horse, there is no contract, and they must take the hit. -Beth Gordon (Judge Wapner)
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2004 - 2:57 pm:
Just wondering and hopefully I am wrong but is your bill not increased everyday for board?
Take care, don't let them get you!!!
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Member:
Lmiller1
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2004 - 5:56 pm:
Well the saga continues. On this past Friday I heard from the billing clerk at the Vets office. In my opinion now she is more the problem than anything else. She has now come down on what she says the lab charges for this test, (1st $144.00 per vial of blood run to $41.00 per vial of blood drawn) but is still continueing to claim that the full bill is $294.00 of course down now by $2.00. She started out nicely but by the end of the conversation she got nasty again when she could not get me to budge from $130.00 which breaks down as follows $40.00 for the initial exam which is what the vet quoted me, $45.00 for the testing which is what the vet quoted me and I offered to pay for the additional test which would have been another $45.00 since I was never ever informed that the test was costing more than this. She kept asking me why I would think that a vet would only charge me this much money and that I was taking advantage of him. Who is taking advantage of whom? I had to cancel the appointment for castration which of course can be made again. I have been harrassed and badgered, screamed at threatened. During this conversation my husband finally had to take the phone and tell her not to call here again and to have their lawyer contact us. After about 4 hours one did contact us and we worked out an amicable agreement whereby I would pay $130.00 which was the verbally quoted price and pick my horse up immediately. I stated that the bill that I was to pay needed to state that the payment was full and final payment of all outstanding charges on this horse. So my husband and I hooked up the trailer and DrOve to the vets place of business and once again this billing clerk was up to her funny business. My husband went in to pay the $130.00 in cash which they insisted on and to get a bill with the full and final payment written on it and a receipt. This lady never gives up. She didn't want to give him the bill to look over and when she did produce it she had the original price of over $600.00 on it and it stated that I was refusing payment and would only pay $130.00 towards the balance. Way out of line that would leave me open for legal and collection proceedings. When she refused to change it to the agreed upon conditions we had to leave without the pony. Now since this was Friday and his lawyer doesn't work weekends we havent heard anything. Today we typed up a letter and faxed it to both his attorney and the office and I am now waiting for their answer. I don't know how much this Vet knows what problems this woman has caused but if he does he deserves what he gets. I originally agreed to pay the over inflated price of $296.00 but in payments so that I could afford to take the pony to Gainesville for the operation. She refused. At this point I am only going to deal with the attorney since the Vet has proved to be unprofessional on the phone also.
As for the board and taking the pony back illegally I would prefer to do this ethically. I have no reason to sneak around like I have done something wrong. I am in the right here and I am not afraid to fight for it. He is now footing the bill for the board since his tricks on Friday prevented me from picking the horse up as agreed to between his lawyer and myself.
Another thing is that he never had me fill any paperwork out regarding the stay and costs and I attribute this to the fact that he knew what he said about not charging me for board and he knew what he quoted me for the tests and exam. They have a form that most clients have to fill out regarding board agreements and charges pertaining to exams, tests, etc. He never asked me to fill out or sign anything.
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