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Discussion on Overcome by grass in paddocks with flooding rains
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 3, 2007 - 10:05 am:
I know I have asked this question recently but can't find my post so I had to start a new one. It has rained at least 16 days straight in OKC and with the weather report it looks like there literally will be no end to the rain and flooding.
The ground is so saturated it's virtually impossible to cut the grass in the paddocks in the barn where Demetrius moved two weeks ago. The grass must be at least four feet tall by now in his 20 meter by 40 meter turnout where he is alone. The week before we left he was getting two hours of turnout and last week four hours however if his head was constantly grazing she was going to bring him in early. He is still a 5 on the body condition scale and is getting 6 lbs in two meals of Nutrena Senior, free choice hay, wgt gainer, and a fat supplement in addition to his beet pulp. He is steadily gaining and we will wean down of concentrates etc as he gains. My question is and this has me seriously worried should he be allowed out in that turnout at all and if so for how long safely? If we wait until the rain subsides and the ground dries so we can cut it it might be August before he can go out again and I would hate to do that. I have read that the grass is less worrisome the taller and older it gets but it has be greatly concerned.
Please Dr O even if this sounds redundant I have never seen such flooding and grass growth and I have tried to read all I can but just can't get answer to my specific question. And oh by the way....if anyone has any building materials for an Ark I would be happy to start gathering the animals. LOL.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 3, 2007 - 10:45 am:
Hey, Corinne,
It is the same for me here. I would not worry about Demetrius and the grass. I know you were concerned that he was DrOpping weight, so let him eat what he can from the grass and even reduce some of the concentrate to save yourself some money if it looks like he's gaining on the grass. What kind of grass is growing in his paddock. Very important. If it is Johnson Grass, it is okay for him to eat it now, but if it shoots up tall and then the weather gets very hot and dry, he will need to be kept away from it as it can become toxic. I need to mow, too, and was thinking of trying it today, but don't want to get my tractor stuck out there in the low spots. 2-4 hours of grazing a day doesn't sound like much to me. He will get mostly fiber if the grass is mature.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 3, 2007 - 11:14 am:
Thanks Holly. I am glad to hear you have not floated away as well. I do not believe it's Johnson, I think it's bermuda under there...some are weeds, but will ask the barn owner today when I go down for a visit. I think we are going to DrOp the concentrates today when we tape him if he has gone up on the lbs. He is one of those who can easily sway from hard to easy keeper. Little bugger just wants to keep me on my toes! LOL.
Well....the weather forecast is not in our favor for the next week either. And I think Kansas might be the same so we will have to pray for some dryness LOL. Who would have thought with all the DrOught last year that we would be in this position this year. Hope all is well.
P.S. I am going to watch Evan Almighty at the Matinee just to learn the ropes on Ark building just in case. 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 4, 2007 - 10:18 am:
The grass matures as it grows which decreases the amount of nonstructural carbohydrate and increases fiber: it is as you have read and "less worrisome". As long as he is already adapted to free choice grass this mature stand should not represent a problem.
DrO
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Member:
jgordo03
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 3:38 pm:
Corrine and Holly Wood,
Add me to the list of mile high hay. I have had to work from home for the last four days, because I couldn't get there from here because every creek, stream, and river were out over all the roads. We have only gotten about a third of our hay up this year. We had to get warm season grass planted before June 15 for CRP government program. My husband had 700 acres to get in before he could even think hay.
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 3:45 pm:
We also have the problem here in Ireland. We had a very dry spring, but the last month has been wet, so a lot of not particularly tall grass set back by the cold, dry spring has now gone spectacularly to seed. Far more than we would want for hay.
What do people think about high-topping and leaving the horses on the pasture? Normally I would remove horses from exhausted grazing, top and leave pasture to recover. I don't mow and leave the animals in there, but there are so many tall patches they haven't eaten, where the grasses are basically hay already that I am tempted to high-top and just leave them to tackle the revealed green bases.
Is this a bad move/colic risk?
Imogen
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 9:22 pm:
Well we spoke to our farrier and vet and both have said it shouldn't be a problem to cut the tops off the really tall stuff. Neither mentioned us removing it after we have trimmed but I would hate for it to ferment like grass clippings so off we go with one of those grim reaper looking hook knifey things and a few hedge cutters, then we are going to rake up all the clippings allowing him to get to the base. The stuff is pretty much just weeds and the feed lot who did the cutting on the land last year said it needs to be trimmed to allow the burmuda to come up nicely. So I too am curious as to what your thoughts are like Imogen. Is it necessary to remove the clippings...most of it seems rather unutritional. I assume Imogen when you say high topping you mean whacking down some of the taller stuff. Also...what was it again about Johnson grass and toxicity after certain weather? Holly you said hot and dry it becomes toxic. The barn owner said with cows it was toxic after frost so now we are both confused. I go back to the barn tomorrow so any thoughts before then would be much appreciated.
v/r
corinne
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 9:41 pm:
Oh my gosh....just read up on Johnson grass there is some in Demetrius paddock. It says if it's damaged it will become toxic, such as chopping or trampling. So if I cut it we might cause cyanide release and if he continues to trample it he will....What should be do with the Johnson Grass in his paddock? Any suggestions?
Corinne
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 9:53 pm:
From what I understand, Corinne, you can cut the Johnson Grass and the stalks are so thick that the horses won't eat it. When it first comes up in the spring, it is okay. The horses will eat it down and let the "good" grass come up and eventually choke out the Johnson Grass. Also, as long as the weather is wet, the nitrates aren't a problem. It is when the weather goes from wet to hot and dry, and the Johnson Grass is "forced," and the nitrates concentrate in the grass.
The farmer who sold us the farm stops by and checks in every week, and when I asked him about my horses eating it today, he said that it shouldn't be a problem because we've had so much wet weather. He says that he never had problems with his horses on it, and the only time he has heard of a problem is when the horses gorge on it after not having grass.
I am being careful with it, and letting my guys on it for only a couple of hours at a time right now until they eat it down or trample it down. I know there is good Bermuda underneath, but we have to get the Johnson Grass eaten or mowed before we can get to the Bermuda. The Round Up will kill everything, so if you are hoping for the Bermuda to come up, it will be better to just keep the Johnson Grass mowed . . . Is there a riding lawn mower handy? It will chop it down and let the Bermuda grow.
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 9:55 pm:
Wet??? I remember wet.... vaguely. Ladies, I am appropriately jealous. My pasture is a little more than a misnomer and a fond memory confined by hotwire. Every time we work out the horses in the round pen (no later than 8 am...) the immediate atmosphere is reminiscent of Desert Storm.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Friday, Jul 6, 2007 - 10:14 pm:
Thanks Holly! So should Herb and I cut and mow? We can do this in a short period of time as our yard is probably bigger. I was just afraid the stuff will seed or become toxic like one resource I just read said.....Watch it has been raining for weeks and now it will go to completely hot from here on out! We are going to have to weed wack then mow to allow the burmuda to come choke it out. The riding mower will not fit through the paddock gate so we will have to do much of it by hand or by weedwacker then mow with our lawn mower or one of the barn owners. She is doing some research now as we speak too because she just moved here. Unfortunately the barn has only been opened a month so there were no horses to eat the spring stuff!
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 7, 2007 - 6:19 pm:
Well, I decided to try the high-top. I did it this evening - unfortunately the hydraulics on the tractor were dodgy and I did not notice so I cut part of the field lower than I intended but I think it will be fine.
The horses galloped about like loonies - they do not mind the tractor but the noise of the topper freaks them out.
I decided to do it because I can move them to the neighbouring field if I'm worried about the clippings getting mulchy/colicy - they seem fine at the moment though and I can see them from the house in that field so I will know if anyone is behaving odd.
Anyone on this board ever had a problem from leaving horses grazing on a pasture that has been topped (high-mown)?
Thanks for your advice
Imogen
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 7, 2007 - 10:17 pm:
Imogen I did too! We spoke to the vets at the Equine Surgical hospital down the road and the barn owner who is totally on top of everything has calls into OSU about pesticides that will kill Johnson grass etc.
Herb and I started at noon, with weed wacking as the slingblade thing did not work or I didn't know how to swing it so that was probably a good thing. Then we got the ride on mower in there somehow and Herb mowed while I finished edging. Then we raked all the grass we could get up. All in all we filled 15, 33 gallon lawn and leaf bags to the top, which is 495 gallon size portions of grass. I also pulled up by the roots where I could see stalks. As Herb was bagging I started to get woosy, had started to stop sweating, was breathing heavy and was becoming incoordinated so I had to go wet myself down and sit in the truck with the AC while he finished the job. There might be some mowed grass (albiet dry) left there so he will not go out on Sunday. We hope it will blow away or the where the Johnson grass was cut will cure a little. All of it is almost hay like already but I don't want to take any chances. Then we will put him back out on Monday for his four hour turnout then we can increase him to six the week after then his full turnout time.
Like Imogen if I can't rake up everything will some dry clippings hurt him? Although the rains are coming back this week. Since it's his paddock only I am going to have to keep on top of it since he won't graze it all (it's 20 x 40 meters not 60) and I can't do all that work in this heat with Herb gone on Monday.
Thanks again for any advice.
Corinne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 8, 2007 - 7:43 am:
I have not seen any problem with mowing a high field and putting the horses back out on it. Usually the horses ignore the cut grass and go after the revealed growing grass.
DrO
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Member:
imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 8, 2007 - 10:11 am:
Thanks Dr O.
My understanding was in our wet conditions you want to be sure the mowing does not leave swathes of cuttings which can go mouldy/mulchy underneath, even if they dry like unturned hay on top. Mine seems to be fine... only one small patch where the high-top cuttings were heavy enough to fall like that. I'm glad I did it because the next week is going to be constant showers according to our meterological service.
I found out the problem with the tractor too... water has been getting in the hydraulic fluid (looks white/grey, not like oil), so now I have to find out how to change the hydraulic oil and filter... you learn something new every day! As this tractor lives in a shed, I presume that the water must be getting in through the lever boot or something like that. Fortunately I have a neighbour that fixed these old tractors for most of his working life and there isn't much he doesn't know about what goes wrong and how to sort it out...
Corinne, take care of yourself! I can only imagine the temperature and humidity you must be dealing with. We are very lucky here because our coastal location means it never gets too hot in the summer. The winter gales are the bad side of the coin...
Best wishes
Imogen
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 8, 2007 - 6:22 pm:
Allowing horses to feed on moldy forage is another matter entirely and should be avoided. For more on this see the article on botulism.
DrO
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 8, 2007 - 8:09 pm:
Thanks Dr O. Now I remember why I raked the clippings up to the point of heat exhaustion. With all the rain there is always the likelihood that any left grass could potentially turn moldy once cut. And I just reviewed the Botulism article as if the Johnson grass toxicity ones weren't enough to scare me.
Does mold likely happen with very cured dead grass as well? (as was the case with most of my clippings) Or is fresh grass with contaminates more likely to be a safe harbor for the spores?
Imogen I will take care...sounds like you have a lot more land to deal with than I. Good luck on your high grass management. I am so happy I just have the one paddock to worry about and even so we were just helping the barn who would have done the management anyway.
Thanks,
Corinne
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 9, 2007 - 6:50 am:
There are so many variables here Corinne that it is impossible to cover them all, just assume anything moldy and rotting is bad.
Our mountain place pastures overgrew badly (grass was 3 feet tall but is not terribly thick by July) this year before we got up there for the 4th. We rotary mower clipped them the week before and though we frequently got afternoon showers molding was not a problem and our horses were out there for the past week. They ignored what had become straw from the rains and concentrated on the grass. Had I been worried about molding I would have teddered the field to prevent clumping and molding then baled for straw.
DrO
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 12:53 am:
Thanks Dr O.
I put him out this evening and the paddock looks good, but wouldn't you know it, he then goes and leans his head over to the paddock next door that is rented to someone else that has five foot high Johnson Grass and tries to eat that. I tell you. I can't win for trying. Hopefully he won't get too much over the fence.
Anyway, about turnout, I just decided to make an executive decision. It's too hot to go out in the day time with a fly sheet which will cause him to lose more weight and he has to have a fly sheet because the bugs are so bad from the stagnant water from the flooding that some of horses have these boil type lesions (allergic reaction to bugs). So he will go out from 3-8 PM in the cooler part of the day, with the flysheet on (bugs are bad at all times of the day not just dusk), and even through the fructose content is supposed to be higher in grass in the evening he is still thin and has been on grass for the last year so hopefully his founder risk will be low. As for the Johnson grass at least we got most of the weeds and if he get a few bites from the adjacent paddock I hope he will be okay. We are going to put his babies in the paddock without the grass so he will probably spend time near them than the other side with the grass on the other side of the fence. At this point I have seriously done all I can do. The rest is up to him and hopefully his innate desire to survive as an animal will keep him safe when I can't. LOL
v/r
Corinne
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 1:05 am:
P.S. He has had his West Nile Booster, and is fly sprayed daily, sometimes 2x daily.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 9:37 am:
Corinne, our hottest part of the day is between 4 -7 pm.. that would be the worse time to put a horse out here in N. Ca.. With me rehabbing this filly and needing a babysitter in at all times with her.. I try to get at least one turn out time in the AM and bring in before 2 PM.. The boys get to be out all night.. Also the mosquitoes are most active in the early morning and at dusk around here..
Good luck with your boy.. try micro managing a herd.. !~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 10:11 am:
Ann...I agree under normal circumstances it's hotter in the afternoon but for some reason with the weather here it's been raining every single day midafternoon and cooling off in the afternoon. Just spoke to the barn owner and we are going to have to take it day by day and kick him out when it's the least hot. I can get an hour by hour forecast on AOL.
The barn here has more limited turnout hours since staff is only there during the day so he gets free choice hay in his stall at all times but he is grained and beet pulped when staff gets in at 0900 which means he doesn't go out for at least an hour so I have 1000-2000 to choice from as the owner does the last checks at 8PM and if he goes out alone at 0900 and his buddies are left in eating and he is grained later he will just pace in the heat and lose more weigh calling for them and weight was our more recent issue.
Here it's all hot or as in the case of this summer all wet. Last night I got stuck at the barn in the middle of a severe storm. Waited it out for hour then DrOve home, only my Mom called and had me laughing so hard when I took my exit which is under construction, I got off my ramp then got back on 35 S and make it half way back to OKC before I noticed (miles of highway with just fields all looks the same to me) I finally realized my mistake and turned around right back into the storm. The forecast has another week of rain here. Imogen I feel like we are in HOT HOT HOT Ireland! LOL.
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Member:
jgordo03
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 2:25 pm:
Corrine,
I know this is your first summer in Oklahoma.
This is really uncommon weather for this time of year. During the normal summer months you are just trying to keep the dust out of your teeth. I have gradually gotten my girls out for up to three hours at a time now it just takes time.
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 2:39 pm:
Hey Judy...would you believe it's already our second summer here? Time goes by fast. By next summer we will be on the move again. Anyway, I do remember last year I think we went 42 straight days with the temps well over 100. It was quite miserable. I sure do appreciate the rain and all the hay it's produced as I remember friends having to sell their horses last year because they couldn't find hay. I just wish it were a little less....a tinsy bit, just look at the poor counties that have lost all their revenue and have damage because of the flooding.
Either way.....in the last seven years I have always lived in a climate that was extreme, whether it be the tropics, the mountains, the plains or here. I sure do have a lot of different types of clothing I will say! LOL And don't expect the AF will send us to some place that doesn't have extreme weather any time soon.
Have a good one!
Corinne
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 2:41 pm:
P.S. On the bright side, I will have to say at least keeping Demetrius in for weather or weeds, will allow him to gain his wgt back!
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 10:52 pm:
Hello All. Just in. We had a great sunny day! The hay guy was finally able to get in and mow and the land looks great. Thank God for the break in the weather. As soon as the heat goes down a bit I am hitting that dressage court outside big time.
Got invited to dinner with the owner after my ride. She is super sweet, took me to the racetrack for lunch last week and is always introducing me to someone new. Met more dressage folks this afternoon and even saw an eventer that called for me at a Kansas Show. I came from a three boarder barn (where we are all still very tight) so it's going to be different meeting someone new just about every day with the size of this faciltiy but I can't wait, the prospect of all the friends I am going to meet is exciting. Everyone is awesome and I have something to learn from each of them and their diciplines.
Anyway, Demetrius loved his turnout time today, I called this morning and decided that the barn owner will turn him out accordingly in relation to the weather. I tried to make the decision about turnout times because we were given that opportunity with my board package but I can't even make an executive decision in my own head because I then try to talk myself out things because of something else I read about fructose content in grass or heat index etc. LOL. I guess I just love the darn horse that much I don't want to make an error in judgement but I live to far away and I completely trust her (This owner has been in the business 40 years and is so up to date on the latest in horse care research I sometimes think she sounds like Dr O. LOL).
So the bottom line no more worries.....my worry factor has been up a bit with Herb being gone  and that's now over. That's why we choose this wonderful facility when we moved to be closer to my internship.
Well, that's it for now. Off to lessons in the morning. It's going to be a long haul.
Take care.
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 - 11:16 pm:
I live in the High Desert in NM - in the mountains and we are getting rain daily. Our trails - that we softened up with used shavings and such have weeds all over them!!! the shavings and horse by products are like Miracle grow but absolutly beautiful wild flowers all along them. their turnouts are just dirt - as some one said reminiscent of desert storm.. they have 24 * 7 turnout. but.... I cut nightly and give them clover - cut feed all in less than 10 minutes - I toss it all over the pen so they eat it like grazing. they love it and just watch me cut and stand there licking their lips in anticipation.
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2007 - 8:30 am:
yes Corrinne, that can be one of the blessings or curses of boarding at a big barn-all the people!
my sister in law rides at a large boarding stable because she loves being around the people.. however, she has 10 acres of prime horse property surrounded by state forest that she doesnt use... wants the people interaction.. go figure...
me, i'm finally getting my own place with room for my critters, so i'll have very limited human interaction!
glad you got your pasture woes figured out!
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2007 - 12:03 am:
Melissa....in the 3 years since I have been an owner I have had the pleasure of boarding at the best of the best barns yet as a horse Mom I always find something to WOE EY! About! Get it? Seriously, we have only boarded at three places and when we got orders I was always sad to leave but as this assignment proved no matter we get stationed there is always a wonderful horse community you just have to know where to look.
Anyway, good luck with your place! You will have to keep us updated about it. I totally get your sister's position about wanting to be near folks though, as much as I would want my horses home I sure do love to travel. I think the best of both worlds would be to have a small barn at home and one to two workers who could run the place if you had to go on vacation etc. But for us that is years off since we still have at least seven years of military obligation left.
Anyway, have a great night and once again good luck with getting your own horse digs.
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