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Discussion on Overgrown sole
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 - 5:01 pm:
My almost 3yo TB gelding's feet are definately starting to bother him. My farrier keeps telling me not to put shoes on him yet but his sole (hind feet mostly) are almost completely filled and flat. I am going to have shoes put on him asap but I am wondering how something like this can happen? He does not walk on hard surface al lot. Unfortunately there is not a better farrier in my area (only worse) so I need to try and work with this one. Any suggestions anyone? Nailing them on should not bother him I hope? I have tried to make some pics to give you guys a bit of an idea how they look now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 7:02 am:
Hello Nathalier,
I don't see anthing wrong with that foot and there seems to be plenty of "cup" though pictures may be difficult to evaluate for this. Is the sole thin? Can you push it in with finger pressure?
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 7:57 am:
Dr O it looks like he might have a pretty prominent frog-I have one that gets a bit tender when he frog gets like this...once I take it back to sole level or passively weight bearing he immediately becomes comfortable. Could that be the case here?
Nathalie if you could take pictures of the sole straight at the lens it is easier to see what is going on...also a side view could help as well.
I personally would not put shoes on a foot like this but try modifying the trim a bit if the horse seems a little uncomfortable
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 1:09 pm:
I had taken some other pictures already yesterday. Maybe they give you a better impression. The frog seems to be longer now as the wall of his foot is. It almost seems like most if his frog is "lost" in his sole. Both the wall as the sole seem to be touching the ground when walking. I hope to have the farrier out next week. Might shoes help to have his feet grow without them wearing down more or will they do more damage?
No the sole is not very soft (under finger pressure for example). When I lead him from his stall over concrete to the pasture he seems to be very tender. (but then again, not when you test them with a hammer or something else).
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 1:26 pm:
For some reason the second picture did not upload, lets try again...
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 4:27 pm:
Nathalie,
It is very difficult to get a feel for measurements in a picture. Can you measure the toe length and heel length from the hairline? And tell us how big and how much this guy weighs?
I sympathize with your farrier woes, so many of them around here think the horse owner is a dunce and they always know best; and don’t bother to hide it. I oversaw a leased horse awhile back and he was getting a little foot sore. I watched as the farrier came every 5-6 weeks and trimmed feet that just kept getting shorter each visit. Finally I asked that the horse be shod because his foot growth wasn’t keeping up the wear. I was shocked, the farrier claimed the horse was just fine and refused to shoe him! I brought in another farrier and had the horse shod, the horse is no longer sore and is doing just great.
Go figure? I just don’t understand the “Go barefoot at all cost” crowd.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2004 - 3:48 am:
Nathalie,
I think you're right, it looks like this horse is walking on his frogs and soles.
I'd keep him on soft ground until he builds a little bit of wall, possibly applying a mild irritant on the coronary band to speed up growth, then shoe him.
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2004 - 3:56 am:
Last summer his feet grew like crazy right now it seems they won't grow at all. When I asked the farrier if I needed to supplement him he told me there was no need since the feet are healthy enough. But they really don't grow much. I am not sure what you mean with applying a mild irritant on the coronary band. Maybe you can give me a name so I can look it up on the web to find out what might be available over here in Holland. Today I will try to measure the length of his feet, I can also try to make a picture when he is just standing to give an impression of length. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2004 - 4:17 am:
I remember when in the US we used "Reducine" on the coronet band is this maybe what you mean? I need to find out if this is available over here. (sorry I had to run a search for the name I could not remember it when posting above).
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2004 - 7:56 am:
I haven't heard of Reducine,I do not know what it is.
I have been using Cornucrescine with really good results. With a couple of horses, hoof growth almost doubled. It is a British product, you should be able to find it easily in Holland.
If you use it, remember to apply it with an old toothbrush. It is very sticky and it makes a mess on your fingers.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 9:50 am:
The picture you posted above Nathalie (post 21) does show a sole that sticks out beyond the hoof wall. This is not a sole problem however, this is a wall problem and poses the question: why are the walls not growing out past the sole. There are two possible answers:
1) They are being nipped back too far or
2) They are breaking/wearing off before they grow out sufficiently.
Since the feet are tender (and I am assuming this is the cause of the lameness, this should be verified) the horse needs protection from concussion on hard ground until the walls can be grown out for more on promoting good quality horn see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Poor Horn Quality: problems with the wall and soles. I would treat like a horse with sole bruises see, Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels.
In response to those above who think the large frog is indicitive of a problem I disagree: note how wide open the heels and frog are. This shows good weight bearing not something you would see with chronic heel lameness. I have more problems with horses with thin contracted heels than those with big healthy frogs like that above. The pictures of wild horse feet that I have seen have frogs like that. If this is the area causing sensitivity, it is secondary to the wall problem.
DrO
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 2:24 pm:
My vet and farrier would concur with Dr. O. They would call this a "beautiful" frog! The sole that seems to be sticking out is probably callous built up from the lack of wall. The foot looks healthy to me, just trimmed too short. The frog has several functions that it can perform better with positive contact with the ground.
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 12:46 am:
This does make sense now. I did know his feet were short but it just did not cross my mind that the wall was too short instead of the sole overgrown. The farrier has not taken off anything of the wall so it must be from wearing. He moves a lot in his stall so maybe it is from this (concrete floor) all other contact with hard surface is limited from crossing the yard to the ring and/or pasture.
But my main concern now is if the farrier can put shoes on his feet or are the walls too short now? For some reason he has not returned my call yet. I will try him this morning since the weekend is over now. And let you know his "professional opinion" on this. Thanks for your input!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 6:59 am:
Shoes can be put on but great care must be exercised to prevent pressure on the sole. This is done by beveling the inside rim of the shoe away from the sole and leaving contact with just the wall. This can normally be done with just the hammer but the amount it will require for this foot will probably also require a grinder.
DrO
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 6:59 am:
Nathalie,
Just rasping this hoof wall to fit a shoe nice and flat will be removing some protruding sole, and then you'll have to remove even more so that it does not come in contact with the shoe.
You can't do that to an already ouchy sole, can you?
Since he is just 3yo, I suppose his program can accomodate some waiting for the wall to grow. You can speed this up a bit with Cornucrescine.
Covering the concrete floor with a thick bed and, perhaps, mats, should help him the most.
Starting a biotin/methionine supplement may help him, we've had hoof wall improvement with it, but it is a bit on the expensive side and you'll have to wait for a whole new wall to grow until you really see results.
If waiting for the wall to grow is not an option, you can try extending the wall with a thin layer of an epoxy product, then shoe. I have used Equi-Thane's Super Fast with very good results in dry conditions, but I have yet to see a farrier that agrees to the use of epoxies, I do not know why.
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 8:15 am:
I just got off the phone with the farrier. He will only be at the farm this Friday to see if he can put on shoes or not. He said he might have to use a leather pad as well. I guess I will have to wait to hear what he thinks and trust his opinion. I definately don't have a problem with waiting to put him in work but I've already put it off hoping his feet would grow (with not going for walks on the roads etc. since December last year) but it does not seem to help. Hopefully the weather will change soon so he can go out 24/7 instead of only for a few hrs. a day. I will definately suggest him to fit the shoe in a way the shoe won't come in touch with the sole like Dr.O suggested.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 1:15 pm:
Have you thought about old macs to use while working him. That way you can still wait for his feet to grow out and work him. I absolutly love them. When my horse was sore from a stone bruise he walked totaly sound in them. Something to think about.
Katrina
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Member:
Belhaven
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 5:35 pm:
Would you be able to take a picture of the sole direct on rather than angled? Also a picture of the side would be great as well...again square to the side of the foot rather than angled?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 7:12 am:
As long as he only has to work in the Old Macs I too think this may be a viable option.
DrO
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Member:
Nathalie
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 3:26 pm:
The person who is going to start him next month under saddle looked at his feet and he thought even though he seems sore when walking on hard ground, he is ok in the ring/pasture so we agreed to try it a bit longer w/o the shoes. The weather now allows him to stay outside so his feet won't wear more when he is moving too much is his stall. When he goes for his training he will be in a stall with loads of shavings and a ring with sand. Hopefully with him getting more exercise and not being in his stall (with straw bedding) will help his feet (walls) grow some more so he will become comfortable again soon!
So far thanks all for your ideas and I will def. look into the Old Macs just in case! I will let you guys know how it goes!
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