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  Discussion on Am I Feeding Him Right? Lack of Energy - Long
Author Message
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2004 - 10:47 am:

Dr. O. and others,
My gelding has been lacking energy for a while now. He is in good condition, is well muscled, and not lame. He is very powerful and athletic, but lately, his gaits have been, well, I would call them labored. He also gets out of breath easier than in the past.

Here is what he is getting fed.

AM - 2 pounds Horseman's edge 10% protein
Constituents
Crude Protein, (min.), 10.00%
Lysine, (min.), 0.50%
Crude Fat, (min.), 6.00%
Crude Fiber, (max.), 8.00%
Calcium (Ca) (min.) 0.75%, (max.), 1.25%
Phosphorus (P), (min.), 0.50%
Copper (Cu), (min.), 50 ppm
Selenium (Se), (min.), 0.60 ppm
Zinc (Zn), (min.), 150 ppm
Biotin, (min.), 300 mcg/lb.
Vitamin A, (min.), 6,000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E, (min.), 80 IU/lb.

Hay roll outside for about 8 to 12 hours (not the best quality)

PM
10 pounds grass hay (not the best quality)
1 pound Horseman's edge
1 pound soaked beet pulp (measured dry to get consistant amounts) with 1/2 cup bran and 1/2 cup flax seeds added

Supplements

Nu-Image Guardian
2.5 ounces
Pyrantel Tartrate 2.11% (9.6 gm per pound)

TractGard
1 ounce, which is made of the following
Calcium carbonate, sodium sesquiscarbonate, potassium chloride, magnesium sulfate, distillers grains, diamond V yeast, linseed meal.

Select II
3 ounces
Ingredients per day
Magnesium (min), 700mg
Vitamin B12 (min), .3mg
Copper (min) 1,758ppm, 150mg
Sodium (min), 4,400mg
Thiamine (min), 40mg
Ash (maximum), 44%
Bifidobactereium thermophilum, 113,000cfu
Manganese (min), 275mg
Biotin (min), 5mg
Pyridoxine (min), 10mg
Ascorbic Acid (min), 30mg
Vitamin D (min), 4,000iu
Salt (min), 10,641 mg
Entercococcus faecium, 113,000cfu
Lactobacillus acidolphilus, 113,000cfu
Choline (min), 250mg
Crude Fiber (not more than), 10%
d-Pantothentic Acid (min), 90mg
Crude Fat (not less than), 3%
Vitamin E (min), 150 IU
Iodine (min), 2mg
Riboflavin (min), 50mg
Calcium (max), 8,400mg
Salt (max), 11,492mg
Phosphorus (min), 5,200mg
Selenium (min) 28ppm, 2.4mg
Zinc (min) 4,100ppm, 350mg
Folic Acid (min), 35mg
Cobalt (min), 2mg
Beta-Carotene (min), 9mg
Calcium (min), 7,500mg
Iron (min), 550mg
Lysine (min), 1,240mg
Niacin (min), 125mg
Crude Protein (minimum), 22%
Vitamin A (min), 50,000iu
Menadione (min), 8mg
Potassium (min), 1,500mg

Vitamin B-1
Thiamine 750mg

Quiessence
Ingredients (this is what he gets in a serving)
Magnesium, 10 g
Niacin, 2.4 g
Biotin, .03 mg
Thiamin, .03 mg
Choline, 92.5 mg
Riboflavin, .08 mg
Pantothenic acid, .46 mg
Folate, .01 mg
B6, .04 mg
Sodium Chloride, 5.6 mg
Chromium Piccolinate, 2.5 mg

I feed him the beet pulp as we have no grass, and it seems a good substitute to get good fiber and moisture into him, plus he loves it.
I feed the Vitamin B and Quiessence because he is spooky, and this is greatly reduced with those two supplements.
I feed the Select II because the site for the feed we feed says he needs more than he is getting for the proper amount of vitamins.
I feed the tractguard because he cribs (it is an antacid) and because he has had impaction colics in the past
I feed the wormer for obvious reasons.

I am not a nutritionist, so I don't know if this is OK for him. I just wonder if I am doing something wrong as he is so lethargic. He is usually slow, but this is more so.
He has been getting the beet pulp for about 3 months, and the feed level was just increased from 1 to 2 pounds in the morning, but he had been on 2 pounds a day for 4 months. The only thing I added was the vitamins, and I just did that about a month ago. Could he possibly need more iron? I only see it in the vitamin supplement, and it is 550 mg.
If anyone can help, either analyzing this or giving me a name of someone who can, I would really appreciate it. This horse is fantastic, and I love him very much. I don't want to be responsible for him not feeling well.
Thanks in advance!!!
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2004 - 9:20 am:

Alicia,
Can you tell us more about the overall quality of the hay you are feeding?
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2004 - 2:22 pm:

Dr. O.,
Man, I wish I could!!!!! I know it doesn't look good to me, but the barn owner gets it from different places from time to time, and has never had it analyzed. I could buy my own, and may start doing that, as the barn may go to self care. I would have gotten it analyzed before now, but she is inconsistant on where she gets it, so I would have to do it once a month.
Should I get it done anyway?
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 8:27 am:

Here is the problem, though we know, from your posting above, in great detail what several pounds of the diet is we do not know what the other 20lbs of the diet consists of except that it may not be that good.

I am wondering if the labored breathing might be related to dusty (mold spores) hay as this is a common problem with rolled hay. If this is the problem I would expect a cough. If you really think your horse is not feeling well I would suggest a physical exam and a review of the diet including the hay.

If you want to try it buy your horse some better hay and feed it for a month to see if his attitude improves.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2004 - 9:25 am:

So, the amount of vitamins in the hay is large enough to effect the other constituents of the diet? I thought you had to supplement if the horse was only getting hay for just that reason, it doesn't conatain the proper amounts of certain vitamins and minerals. Anyway, I will see what I can do in terms of the hay. I have a friend I can call to buy hay from.
Alici
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2004 - 10:14 am:

Vitamins are not the only nutrients of importance but protein and caloric content might directly effect how your horse feels. Besides nutrients if the hay is bad enough it may contain toxins and allergins that adversily effect your horse.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2004 - 1:56 pm:

Dr. O,
The hay is not moldy, just more yellow than green. Almost looks like straw, but has about 40 percent green and isn't as stiff as straw. It also smells OK, but you don't smell it and get that "wow, that smells great" feeling. He used to attack his hay with gusto, now he just eats it. That is why I thought it might not be too good.
I don't think he isn't getting enough calories, as he isn't skinny. The protein may be an issue, however, as they just feed 10 percent.
Thanks :-)
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 - 12:50 pm:

I agree hay like you describe would be protein deficient and the 10% sweet feed does not help. Perhaps 5 lbs alfalfa cubes daily would put spring back into your horses step, but again if he seems sick, I would have him looked at.
DrO
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 - 2:02 pm:

Hello Alicia,
I would suggest getting another hay source. I know, easier said than done. I have to agree with Dr.O about the alfalfa cubes. That might be an alternative until you can find some better hay. You could also try soaking the hay before feeding to eliminate any airborne mold spores and keep your horse living outdoors. Hope this helps.
Susan B.
Member:
Sylvy

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 - 5:56 pm:

Does anyone know if the Purina brand feed is available in British Columbia? My Pinto-Arabian is also lazy at times and need to build up her stamina for shows this summer. She is on 12% horse pellets and Dr.Reed's supplement. flax, beet pulp and local hay.
Member:
Suzeb

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 - 6:27 pm:

Sylvia,
Look up www.agribrands.ca and use the contact method to see if it available in your area. Hope this helps.
Susan B.
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Monday, Apr 26, 2004 - 4:40 pm:

Sylvia

You coul try this site, they do sell in canada, you need to write a zip code to get the dealer nearest to you https://www.purina.com/intl/default.asp

Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 - 2:15 pm:

Dr. O.,
It is actually pellets, but I agree about the protein. I will see if I can get 12 percent for my horse. If it doesn't cost much more, shouldn't be a problem.
Susan,
I am looking into it. Our barn may go self care. If that happens, I will have many more options. He does get beet pulp mixed with bran (to balance the c/p ratio) and flax seeds. I don't think soaking anything else would be taken kindly at my place :-(
He is still the same, and his ribs are starting to show. I am going to ask the owner if we can switch to 12 percent. If not, I will up his grain, and ask if I can feed my own hay.
Thanks all :-)
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 - 7:46 am:

The tiny bit of extra protein in 3 lbs of a 12% concentrate will not make up for the protein deficiency of hay that is say 8% protein or less. 16% would help more but I like the alfalfa idea better.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 - 9:50 am:

Dr. O.,
I think I will look into adding cubes. I am not sure how to feed them, but intuitively, I could just add them to his grain bucket. They don't need soaking, right?
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2004 - 7:28 am:

Yes. Unless you have specific nutritional issues I am unaware of, you don't need all the supplements you are feeding, really they are a waste of money.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2004 - 9:26 am:

Dr. O.,
I tried him on one pound last night, and he ate them. Didn't gobble, but he really doesn't gobble anything except beet pulp. Which supplements do you think I can DrOp? He has been on the wormer since he was born, and I don't want to DrOp that. The Tractguard is an antacid and I don't want to stop that either, as he is a cribber and they say the cause may be related to the stomach. Can I DrOp the Select II? That is really expensive. I added it because he doesn't get enough grain to get the recommended amount of vitamins. I also don't want to DrOp the Quiessence, as it really settles him. He is very spooky, and without the Quiessence and B-1, it is not too fun to ride him. With them, he is much more relaxed and fun. I did try stopping them at one point, and he went back to being tense. Not all at once, but it became worse over time. I think I may try DrOpping the B-1 to see if he still becomes more tense. If not, I will discontinue that.
So, I guess the question is, with his current food from grain, his hay, and the alfalfa I am adding, he doesn't need the Select II, right?
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 1, 2004 - 9:12 am:

Good quality forages should provide adequate vitamins but if you suspect this is a problem see the article on vitamins.

I do not know how to deal with the conflicting statements that in the first post he lacks energy and now you insist he needs to be fed a supplement that settles him: could the lack of energy be you have him a little too settled? Interesting to note is that all 3 of your supplements have either unknown or very high levels of magnesium.

Personaly I think it is unlikely you are getting a benfit from an antacid unless you are giving it every 3 hours, see the article on gastric ulcers on this.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, May 3, 2004 - 11:43 am:

Oh boy, gotta clear things, up, sorry.
We are in a selenium deficient area, and I have read many articles saying at least that should be supplemented. That is why I feed the multi vitamin. Should I go to Vitamin E / selenium crumbles only? I can do that easily. Is too much magnesium dangerous?
In regards to his energy. His level of physical energy has always been lower than your average horse, but he has always also been spooky. The Quiessence has really reduced the spookyness, and until recently, he was still nice and forward. He has been on the Quiessence now for over a year (excluding the month about 6 months ago I took him off it to see if was really working), and the recent lack of energy has only been a few months. That is why I didn't think the two were related.
In regards to the antacid, it also is a gut hydrator and has electrolytes. It is supposed to bring water into the gut. I agree that once a day won't do much for ulcers, but if it is fed at the same time as the high concentrate foods, it should help, was my reasoning.
Alicia
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Monday, May 3, 2004 - 12:27 pm:

Dr. O.,
OK, I looked up the recommended portion of magnesium. For my horse, I found it to be .09% of the daily intake.

My supplements provide:
From TractGard, 7500mg magnesium sulfate which I assume counts in the overall tally (I just divided up the ingredients into equal amounts, which I'm sure is not how it's done, but I didn't know what else to do).

Select II - I am feeding one 1.5 ounces a day, half what they recommend
Magnesium (min), 350 mg, I used 350 mg.

Quiessence
Magnesium, 10 g or 10000 mg

Without accounting for the beet pulp, bran mash, flax seeds, hay, or alfalfa cubes, that comes to 16050 mg a day, or 16050/28,349 = .57 ounces = .035 pounds a day. Divide by the amount fed a day, which is now about 27 pounds including all forage, and it comes to .035/27 = .001 percent, which is way under the recommended. So, I don't understand how I am overfeeding magnesium?

Note, I am using the conversion of
1 ounce = 28,349.523125 milligrams which I found on a conversion site.

If the whole dose of Tractguard is magnesium, the percentage goes up to 28,349 for Tractguard + 350 + 10000 = 38699.5 mg = 1.36 ounces = .085 lbs = .003 % of the daily ration, which is still far from the recommended. Did I do something wrong here?

Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 6:53 am:

Your calculations are incorrect. When you divide the weight of Mg by te weight of the feed you the amount of Mg per lb but to convert to a percentage you have to multiply by 100 so this translates to 0.13%

You need to note that your regular diet, before supplementation contains an unknown amount of Mg but may contain up to 5 times the minimum amount recommended in the diet. I don't know if this might be the cause of your horse's lack of energy but it is interesting to note you are supplementing more Mg than anyone I know and the chief sign of excess Mg is muscle weakness.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 2:10 pm:

Dr. O.,
OK, I see now that I should have multiplied by 100, thanks for setting that straight.
One thing I still am not sure of, is magnesium sulfate the same as magnesium? If it isn't, the percentage goes down to .0845% with the Select and .081% without with his current feed.
So, if the sulfate is counted as Mg, I am feeding .04 percent more than the recommended. I will remedy that.
I am definately taking him off the Select all together.
When I up his daily intake to the 5 pounds of alfalfa, that will make his daily food weight about 30 pounds, which makes the percentage .07 if the Mg sulfate doesn't count, and .12 if it does count. I have an e mail in to the lady to find out just how much of the supplement is the Mg sulfate to clear that up. When I get that answer back, plus whether the Mg sulfate counts, I can recalculate my total.
This is very interesting to me, and important, as I want to be doing the best for my animals. I appreciate the time you are taking on this, Dr. O.,
Alicia
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2004 - 3:23 pm:

Dr. O.,
Got an answer from the Foxden people (makers of both Tractguard and Quiessence). The Tractguard has 560 mg an ounce, which is a serving. So, with what he gets today, that would make the percentage .89, which falls within normal limits. So, it seems I have to look into the roughage.
The vet who came up with it said that some horses don't need as much, and to half it to see, so I will do that, though that makes the percentage too low based solely on supplements. Do you have any place that I can find "typical" mineral percentages in hay? I haven't looked at the bag of alfalfa cubes. I hope they have their nutrients on the bag.
Alicia
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 6:59 am:

The magnesim content of feedstuffs are in the article, Care for Horses » Nutrition »
Minerals and Nutrition.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2004 - 10:26 am:

Dr. O.,
OK, I will look there. Just for an update, here is some information I got through e mail from Dr. Worth.

"A 1,000 lb horse eating 25lbs of food per day (2.5% x bodyweight) needs roughly 10-12g per day.
Your Q and TG are supplying all the Mg he needs, but if there is Mg in the Select II then he may be oversupplied.

However I don't think the Mg is the problem, I think he is under supplied with protein esp if the hay is stalky and yellow.

Try doubling the flax seed and or increasing the alfalfa cubes."

Sounds just like what you said. I am going to increase the alfalfa.

"Another point the vet might be unaware of is that the Mg in Mg SO4 is very poorly absorbed it really stays in the GI tract (which is why I use it).
So the chances of your horse being overdosed with Mg are very small.

Horses in Ireland ingest 20-30g of Mg a day just in their drinking water (the water is that hard) and they do fine, so your little 12g a day is not
that high!"

I think I have discovered that the problem is with the protein. I am going to remedy that today.

Thanks for the insight,
Alicia
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2004 - 7:45 am:

Dr. Worths statements are not the whole picture. As your regular feed stuffs probably have adequate Mg the addition of any of the high Mg supplements may over supplement Mg.

He is correct about MgSO4 absorption being poor as we have covered many times in other discussions on Mg. Mg toxicity in horses has occurred in conditions of MgSO4 administration along with other chemicals that have increased the absorption rate (DSS comes to mind). As far as I know the effect on some of your other supplements on Mg absorption have not been studied, particularly those that change the ph might greatly effect absorption. Also individual variation must be taken into account. It is not that I think this is probable Alicia, but you are arguing that this has changed the mental status of your horse in the past yet now refuse to believe that it might also have had a undesirable effect.
DrO
Member:
Aannk

Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2004 - 10:34 am:

Dr. O.,
I don't refuse to beleive. I do plan on lowering the amount of the supplement I am giving him, I thought I already stated that? Oh, now that I look, I didn't state that. I am going to both increase his protein, and cut his dose of the Quiessence in half. I don't know why I didn't say that. I am discontinuing the alfalfa cubes, however, as he hates them and doesn't eat them. I am trying a feed by Manna Pro called Powerhouse. It has 25 percent protein. You are supposed to feed 1 to 2 pounds a day. I am going to feed one pound a day divided into the two feedings. So, he will get a total of 4 pounds of grain a day. I am also continuing the flax seeds and the beet pulp. I hope this does it!
Alicia
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