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Discussion on Barefoot candidate?
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2004 - 5:41 pm:
I would like to hear from people who successfully transitioned their horses to barefoot who live in an area where there is significant amounts of rainfall during the year. I live in the Pacific Northwest and endure several months of rain during the winter and spring. I would like to remove the shoes from my quarter horse as his feet are not looking so good. The heels are contracting and his feet are starting to look like mule feet - long and narrow. My husband thinks that our area is too wet too much of the time that it would make his feet weaker instead of stronger. I would most likely ride with Old Macs or another type of boot until such time as he toughens up.
What are your thoughts on this? Is it possible to go barefoot and not have your horse pull up lame in an area that is wet half the year? Should I just accept the fact that he's going to need shoes the rest of his life (he's 17)? I would like to prove my husband wrong on this one. He does our shoeing so asking the farrier's opinion is not an option unless I bring one in not familiar with my horse.
Thanks everyone!
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Member:
Liliana
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2004 - 6:29 pm:
Hello,
It´s quite dificult isnt it, my horse had a really bad thrush problem and the beginning was similar to what you describe. Once the heels contracted bacteria got in thrush formed and you can imagine the rest. It has taken 18 months to get his feet back to normal, and indeed the only way was to take his shoes off and let the hoof go back to its natural shape.
In the case of my horse the problem was that the peson doing his feet was not a qualified farrier. Of course several people were using the same man and in the end at least 80% had a similar problem. It does not happen in a month but bet your behind that it will in time.
Is there any chance that you can stable him when too wet, or perhaps get him the the poltice boots, there are some very good ones in the market some even have steel heels to protect from over reaching
Best of luck (husband wont be happy eh)
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 8:03 am:
I have not transitioned mine to barefoot from shod, so can't speak to that. However, I do live in an area that's very wet in the winter as the ground is marshy, muddy, with dry spots and low spots...all three of mine are barefoot, and I fight constantly with thrush in winter. I am planning to start my worst one on Keratex this summer as a preventative for thrush. Might be worth a look at this product. My farrier isn't that familiar with it, but has heard all positive the few times he has run into people using it. I think their site is www.keratex.com.
Good luck....I know how frustrating it can be!
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 8:18 am:
Oops. It is keratex.net. And I realize your post was not necessarily about thrush but toughening up. Keratex carries a hoof hardener for repair and a gel for maintenance. Reviews, not from their website but from other sources, are very good.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 8:30 am:
It is not a type of environment that I have tried to keep horses in so would be interested in others experiences. I am uncertain what your husbands concerns are Holly as I would guess it would be easier to keep feet healthy without shoes in muddy conditions as the shoes tend to trap mud keeping the soles wetter. Perhaps there is a concern that the wetness keeps the foot so soft that bruises occur easier? I would be sure I had a situation where I could keep the horse up 1/2 the day where the feet could dry out during prolonged wet periods, for more on keeping feet in wet conditions healthy see, »Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview.
DrO
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 9:35 am:
i did it successfully. I remember a few posts i put up regarding this in the beginning. check the archives.
Its been 3 years approx. the beginning was tough. Really tough. But the environment wasn't good. She was stalled all day. I live in Florida and its always raining. So, if i can do it, i think you can too!!
Lets see... I took her shoes off in the back first. and let them acclimate for a few months. Then the front. I remember the first 3 months or so were really ouchy for her. But you know what? her hoof diameter grew considerably. and i noticed her heels relaxed. She wasn't contracted per se, but they just looked better. and its funny but we don't trip anymore. (weird)
Another thing i learned is what a proper hoof should look like. read up on all the Barefoot sites and make sure you are dealing with a decent hoof before you try doing this. I had decent hooves to begin with. She is a lite colored palomino and all four hooves are lite colored. She grows well and had minor white line problems prior to going barefoot.
I had a few problems with moist frogs and i couldn't ride during that time. Till she hardened up. and even to this day she can get ouchy a bit in the rainy season.
I also went thru 3 abscesses. she blew them on front only. and i think that the transitiion from shod to barefoot helped put her back into a natural frame. I don't know the technicals the farrier explained it to me.
That is another thing. I went thru 3 farriers till i found one who would do it my way. NOT just a pasture trim. and not by any extreme ways some of the barefoot groups do. A 4 point trim to MY horse. I have a 22 year old who i swear looks better than most 6 year olds. and her back problems all but disappeared.
Overall, i would say do it if you stick with it. And if you have the time to be down not riding. You can't waffle over it. if you know what i mean. The horse will be fine. make the commitment and do it. I didn't notice the benefits till a year into doing it, and i had friends start but just couldn't hack the commitment. Its just easier to shoe. and be done with it.
If you have any specific questions i can answer them, but overall i can only say DO IT.... IT IS WELL WORTH IT. Your horse will thank you. Oh and if you are doing it to save money... don't bother. It can be just as expensive, with all short trims you need to do and finding the best farrier, etc. Or traveling to barefoot trimmers who will start the process for you where your regular farrier can just keep it up, etc. Its not more expensive, but don't do it if that is a main reason.
keep me posted.
jojo
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 10:25 am:
I think my husband's main concerns are that we ride exclusively on trails and some of them are very rocky. There's places where the trail is nothing but rocks - no dirt - so hooves will chip no matter what. He doesn't want the horse to come up lame during or after a 6 hour ride.
I think I may start this during the winter when we normally pull shoes for the season. We have individual run in sheds with rubber mats and bedding so they have a dry place to hang out and eat and sleep. Woody has pretty solid feet with two white ones (front and rear) I haven't noticed the white hooves to be any softer or more brittle than the black ones. He also trips if he gets too long in front so if he stops tripping so much the better.
The mustang, on the other hand, has feet like rocks. I ponied him in that same very rocky area all day and the only thing he came up with was mild chipping around the edges and one small notch on a hind foot. He wasn't at all lame and his feet are nice and round with wide heels. Oh, and when I first got him I was unable to clean his feet until about two months later so was sure I would find a horrible case of thrush (it was November by this time and the rains had started). But when I was able to pick them out, found no thrush at all but a good solid sole and sound frog. So I think you're right Doc about the shoe trapping the mud and dirt. Also, there's the possibility of a rock getting wedged between the shoe and the frog, which has happened.
I'm not doing it to save money, that's not the issue. Like I said, my husband shoes our horses whether we have 6 or 2 (like now) so that is not a problem. When he trims or shoes he doesn't remove any of the old sole or frog unless it's in shedding mode.
I will keep you posted and check out that Keratex. I've also read on this site about what a good product it is.
Anybody else have an opinion on this?
Thanks.
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Member:
Jerre
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 11:13 am:
Holly, I'm in the PNW also and started my mare barefoot by coincidence when I pulled her shoes for foaling. She was fine and sound, and her feet got a little bigger. She's half-draft, so they really look bigger barefoot. She wasn't ouchy at all even on the gravel road until it really dried out this summer. Then she was tender for the first week after her last trim. So we had no problems during the wet season. She has a dry run in and sand paddock for at least half the time.
I've been debating buying boots for just after trims, or for trail rides. She's not heavily used -- once or twice a week in a sand arena or big field, with short road rides. I'm going on a long trail ride this weekend, right at the end of her trim cycle, so we'll see. Just from looking at their sites, I'm most attracted to Boa boots for their apparent ease.
My farrier doesn't trim specially for "barefoot," but he doesn't pare the sole, either. I've always shod before, but just feel real reluctant now to put shoes on if she's only ouchy under limited conditions and time frames. So far it's only been the once.
Cost is definitely a bonus for me. A trim is $35 and shoeing is $80.
Jerre
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 12:09 pm:
A friend of mine is a big advacate of the Boa boots; they do look less bulky than the Old Macs. I may go with a pair if just for the front feet.
Where do you like to ride? Are you in Washington?
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Member:
Gailking
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 3:38 pm:
My horses have been barefoot for a year and a half. One never has any problems, but the older one can be ouchy on rocks just after a trim. I also had underrun heels to deal with and misshapen feet. My horses feet have never been better. I went through six farriers who never corrected either of my horses hoof problems so now I do all the trimming myself. Sometimes you need to trim every two weeks or so. Other times you can go longer. Just watch the feet and keep the toes short. My weather in No. Cal. is wet in the winter and dry in the summer with very rocky footing in places. There is more tendency to chip in dry weather and if the hooves get too long. I had my horses at the beach all last summer in Oregon and they went in the ocean every day and had a pasture that was damp from time to time. It didn't make their hooves too soft or weak in any way.
I have a piece of advice that will probably raise lots of eyebrows. Years ago I read about an old farrier who said that shoeing was unnecessary for most horses and they survived as well as they do because of dirt and mud packing inside the shoe and giving the hoof support. So I don't clean my horses feet all the time or before a ride. I check to see that there is only damp shavings or mud, and no rocks. Of course, I check regularly for thrush and any foot problems. The packed material gives some cushioning to the sole and actually keeps rocks from wedging into the valleys around the frogs. In dry weather the feet usually clean themselves on a ride. I do have Old Macs but rarely use them. Good luck on going barefoot.
Gail
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 4:03 pm:
Gail .... Good points.
All my horses are barefoot unless showing or riding on gravel regularly. We all seem to forget that horses survived for many years doing quite fine without us worrying humans to care for them. I also trim my own and rarely trim away sole or frog to keep them tough. We trail ride regularly and never, ever have problems caused by not having shoes. Sometimes, I think our good intentions actually cause more problems for the horse.
DT
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 4:25 pm:
Dennis, Yes you're right about our good intentions causing more problems. I am convinced that barefoot is the way to go. I'll probably receive a lot of flak from my horse riding buddies but too bad. I do think I will invest in a set of old macs or boa boots just to have around in case.
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Member:
Deggert
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 4:42 pm:
I wish mine could go barefoot, wow, my farrier bills are huge. Here is so. Calif it averages $90
for shoes, no extras, and I have 4 horses. I am just considering putting shoes on the 3yr old who has great feet but is also a little ouchy on the rocks/gravel right after a trim, he is also just started under saddle a few months ago. We do have alot of rocks and a dry climate. Any thoughts as opposed to the wet climate?
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 5:48 pm:
Debbie, Does your farrier trim all the sole and frog when he does your 3 year old? When they trim everything down to where it's white and neat and clean, they are very ouchy. Most people have to wait a few days to ride right after a shoeing or trim when all the old stuff is removed. Ask your farrier to leave on as much as possible as it acts as a cushion and will protect the sole and frog. Of course, it doesn't look as neat and tidy, but who cares when the comfort of your horse is at stake.
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Member:
Deggert
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2004 - 6:20 pm:
Holly, I will check with her, I hate to put nails in his pretty feet but my husband is anxious to take him in the hills and river bottom and there are lots of rocks. Thanks, Debbie
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 5:14 am:
Hi, all,
I live, in the last 8 years, in an area that is, I believe, the ultimate farrier's challenge.
The place used to be a swamp and we get plenty of rain. In the winter you don't dare go in a field even with a tractor, and you need drill no more than 25-30 ft to pump all the water you need, at random!
In the summer the soil packs as hard as concrete, and you're worried of the whole horse drying out, not just the hooves.
Just to make things worse, all non asphalt roads are hard packed with sharp, broken stone, too coarse to call it gravel. Pretty unforgiving.
To cut the long story short, I believe that nothing keeps hooves healthier than putting them at work. Mud or rock, swamp or desert, shod or barefoot, drafts or thoroughbreds, the horses that were putting their hooves to good work had almost zero problems.
Surprisingly enough, I find it now easier to keep barefoot a horse that is gradually build up to work 15 hours a week, half of it on gravel, than to maintain the barefoot hooves that only work 4 hours a week on grass.
With the horses that had adequate work, hooves toughened up so much that even when thrush was present in the winter, you could simply wipe it off. Two of them became so tough hooved that I could only trim them with a Dremel tool, the hoof knife would hardly scratch them.
As outrageous as it may sound, I now strongly believe that shoes are necessary nowadays just because people do not have the time to work their horses enough to toughen up their hooves.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 5:45 am:
Doctor,
for the direct transition from soaked wet to rock, I have seen no cuts, bruises or cracks if the hooves have been toughened up enough with work, even if they have been standing in water for 6-7 hours.
I have no idea what would happen with hooves soaked for a couple of days or, worse, 24/7.
I actually soak them now every two weeks or so for a few hours in a muddy field and then put them immediately to work because I think it "springs" a very tough hoof back in perfect balance (this may be absolutely ridiculous, but I think I see a difference)
For shod hooves in muddy conditions, I believe it is very important to trim and shoe in a way that the hoofpick will reach all the way to the wall. Daily cleaning and weekly chlorine or formaldheyde should then keep thrush from digging into the hoof.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2004 - 8:48 pm:
Christos,
I have a question that maybe you can answer as my farrier cant. My horse is now 7. Barefoot his whole life. I ride many hours in all terrains espescially rocky areas. He has only stone bruised once and his his soles and walls are rock hard. However because he has low soles (flat feet)in the front. his soles touch the ground they are not concave. I have heard that this is a natural state that its good and I have heard that its bad. My vet even said that I should shoe the front feet because his soles are so close to the ground. Barefoot people say the sole should be weight bearing? He is tender on very rocky areas but who wouldnt be? I am so torn between people telling me to shoe him and loving the fact that he has wonderfully shaped hooves perfect except for the low sole or flat feet. He is on rocky moist ground 24/7. What do you think? Give in and shoe?
Advise much appreciated.
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 12:47 pm:
Dear Katrina,
If the horse is the least tender, I'd either shoe or avoid that type of terrain. You don't have to wait until he's lame, and a horse that's ouchy will not use his legs strongly to support himself, making the situation a bit unsafe.
I understand DrO and many others are using Old Macs or Easy Boots with great success in rocky terrain, you may want to consider that. I have not used them, so I can't tell.
Now for the flat soles, I know barefoot horses with flat, weight bearing soles that have never hesitated one step on rock, and I also know shod horses with beautiful cupped soles that are bruised and ouchy all the time. Go figure.
You may also want to browse the articles at
https://www.horseshoes.com/advice/advcclms.htm
All the best,
Christos
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2004 - 8:46 pm:
Thanks Christos,
your advise is always wonderful. He can go for months without being tender. Then every now and again he seems more sensative. I do use old macs and avoid the extreme rocky areas when he is acting more tender footed. However I am starting to think that because of where I ride and the fact he is telling me sometimes the ground hurts. I might just have to give in to the fact he is just needs shoes. It is a shame when his feet are so perfect and strong. I just have to trust my farrier to keep them that way. Oh the site is wonderful . I have posted on it before . Great help and information.
Thank you again
Katrina
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 11:47 am:
Holly,
I didn't see this posted already, so I'll open the can of worms.
If your horse's feet are contracting and looking like a mule's foot, it is the shoeing, not the shoes. If your horse can't tolerate being barefoot then your horse needs to be shod correctly.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 3:15 pm:
You're probably right Alden. My husband is a "self-taught" shoer but has always received advice from professionals if he has a question. I think this horse could tolerate going barefoot if prepared correctly but husband is dead set against it. I'm planning to buy a pair of Old Macs for the mustang and after this winter I may get a set for WooDrOw as well. We generally pull shoes for the winter so they will have time to get conditioned. Is it okay to ride while their feet are recuperating from being shod as long as they're not sore? Forgive my ignorance but as I've a life of horse experience this is the first time I've considered going barefoot.
Thanks.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 5:19 pm:
I'll jump in here are whole heartedly second Christos's observations related to work and hooves condition. My horses’ feet look much better with work, shoes or no shoes.
I have observed my barefoot horse's feet looked much better when he was working 30-35 trotting miles a week than right now when I'm not able to work him at all. But you can’t just pull the shoes and head out for a 20 mile jog. They have to work up to it. In fact I think a great method is to start working them with shoes then pull the shoes after getting some initial conditioning done.
I believe a significant problem with barefoot horses is the having the feet trimmed every six weeks. Almost all the attempts at going barefoot I've seen in our barn have failed and I think it is mostly due to too much trimming. They end up with short sore feet and the owners blame the ground and "bad foot" genetics when it is really the Ferrier rasping the poor sucker down to nubs.
I will rasp to make the foot level and not worry about the length. Most barefoot trims I've seen end up looking like a foot prepared for a shoe, way too short. My barefoot 17h horse has had a toe length as long as 4" and as short as 3 1/4" over the last couple years. It just depends on how much work he is doing and the type of ground, although I do draw the limit at about 4".
Another mistake I think people make when going barefoot is thinking it is easier or less complicated than having them shod. I believe it is just the opposite and it is more difficult to manage a barefoot horse. A barefoot can change rapidly and I find I have to be very aware of the feet or problems can develop very fast. It really becomes a daily thing looking at their feet. Of course that isn't a bad thing as long as you do it. Maybe the complexity is why posts on this subject get so long!
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 6:38 pm:
This horse is in excellent physical condition right now and I intend to keep him that way. He does several hours of trails each week with lots of hill climbing thrown in for good measure.
Of course I wouldn't expect him to go out for a long ride immediately after pulling shoes unless he had sufficient hoof length to handle it. And, yes, I would only trim enough to keep the foot level but the mustang has some flares that I want to correct. The QH in question has nice straight feet and no dips or flares and I think would take very well to being barefoot.
I think I'm going to give it a go next spring when the riding season starts up again. He'll have the winter unshod and I'll keep an eye on his feet to see if they break down at all or if they're up to the challenge. Some horses you just cannot leave unshod; I had an appy mare who had the most God awful feet you ever saw. Brittle, shelly, extremely weak. I poured supplements into her to try and fix them up but to no avail. The only fix was keeping shoes on her.
Time to go. Be back tomorrow.
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Member:
Sparky
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2004 - 7:47 pm:
Holly - how far are you from the Sumas border? I was told today that Del's Farm supply in Abbotsford has the old mac boots on sale for $149.00 cdn
Janet
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Member:
Cowgrl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 14, 2004 - 11:10 am:
I'm a little bit of a drive - about 2-1/2 hours south but maybe I can call and order over the phone. I still have to determine the size I need. Do you know how long they'll be on sale? That's a great deal it comes out to $109.77 US. I just saw them at the local tack shop for $145. Thanks Janet!
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Member:
Sparky
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 14, 2004 - 12:22 pm:
They have size 2,3,4 and 8 only and they are on sale until the end of July. Their number is 604-556-7477
I was able to have a friend that had the size range I thought I fit in to come over with hers and fit my horse. Measurements put me in between a 4-7 but the size 5 actually fit perfectly on all 4 feet. With the cost of gas these days it is not worth the drive to try and save that amount.
Good luck.
Janet
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Member:
Presario
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 1:51 pm:
Remember, with bare feet it's not just about hoof length, whether it's 4" or 3" or somewhere in between. It's about bars and frogs too and how much concavity they have right off the bat.
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