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Discussion on Permeable or non-permeable mats
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Member:
Sandbox
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Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 8:42 am:
Does anyone have an opinion on the best type of stall mats to use? I'm in the process of building a barn and can't find any info comparing permeable verses non-permeable matting. I'm thinking that a porous surface would allow urine to drain better thus eliminating that lovely ammonia scent but would like some input.
PS Love this site - I'm so impressed with members and discussion - thanks Dr O for such an insightful, mature forum! 
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Member:
Kami
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 1:25 am:
I worked on a farm once that had non-permeable mats and bedded hay over it. I count that as a lesson learned, because this was a very slick condition when it got wet from urine or spilled water buckets (and I'm sure she spent a lot of money on those mats).
My stalls are in rock dust over clay soil. They don't drain well and are getting uneven through use. I'm considering some of the honeycomb type products to keep the floors even. If I do that (where I have to dig out stalls) then I'll probably dig them down enough to lay down a layer of rock/drainage pipes to move liquids out of the stalls quicker.
But as bad as dirt floors are, I'd take them over non-permeable mats anyday. I prefer to have liquids move away from their feet and not be trapped for them to stand/slip on.
Kami
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Member:
Sandbox
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 7:13 am:
Thanks Kami. I've only had experience with dirt and concrete floors. Like you, I didn't care for the uneven ground that occurs with dirt or the total lack of drainage with concrete - that barn always had a very strong ammonia smell. I also think it's harder to deep clean stalls with dirt. The bedding seems to become one with the dirt!
I'm seriously considering buying permeable mats from Ground Master - but just needed some positive reinforcement from others before spending the $$$.
Thanks again - Sandy
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Member:
Beezle
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 1:17 pm:
FYI - I have non-permeable mats in my stalls and I do not have problems with them being slippery or with ammonia smell. I clean stalls at least once or twice a day though. I would think if you clean often, there is less chance of ammonia since you can remove all the urine and it does not soak in.
Becky
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Member:
Jerre
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 20, 2004 - 11:10 pm:
I have non-permeable mats bedded with shavings and they're not slippery or strong smelling. My question is: wouldn't permeable mats allow urine to soak into the dirt and create a permanent urine spot that couldn't help but smell strong?
Just curious,
Jerre
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Member:
Sandbox
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2004 - 2:07 pm:
My understanding is that instead of having the urine soak into the bedding and remain there until picked up ~ it instead drains through the mats and is leached away through the ground. Both makers of these mats claim you'll use less bedding and have better quality air for your horse.
They also recommend disinfecting the mats/stalls on a regular basis with a biodegradable cleaner. If you are interested in reading their story you can find it at www.groundmasterstallflooring.com
I'm not sure that it's better but I'm hoping it works as well as what you both are using - I just ordered mats for 4 stalls...I'm already having buyer's remorse!
Thanks again - I'll let you know in a few months if it lives up to its billing.
Sandy
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 22, 2004 - 4:11 pm:
Like Becky and Jerre, I, too, use solid mats. The horses are out a lot, and the stalls are cleaned twice daily. The wet remains on top of the mats and is absorbed by the shavings. After picking the manure, I broom enough shavings over any puddles, step on the pile ( which makes the shavings act like a sponge ), leave it soak and do another stall. When I come back, there is a solid clump to pick up, and I broom the dry bedding back to expose the damp area until it dries. No odor, little mess, and I use less bedding. When deciding which kind of mats to use, I was afraid the permeable mats would trap the liquids and any dribbled feed. Of course, I will plan to use a permeable type in my ( still waiting to be built ) wash stall.
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Member:
Beezle
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Posted on Friday, Jul 23, 2004 - 1:27 pm:
Oh, one more thing..... Make sure you install the mats as recommended by the manufacturer. I have heard of many people who have had problems because they did not properly level their floors, or did not put down the proper underlayment (usually crushed gravel), or did not cover the entire stall floor with mats. I think probably any type of mat will do fine if you install it as they indicate.
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Member:
Sandbox
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Posted on Friday, Jul 23, 2004 - 2:00 pm:
Thank you everyone for your advice. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that these mats will be everything the company promised. If I hadn't already ordered them I would have changed my mind and used the non-porous mats. But I'm taking heart with Becky's advice and will try to follow the installation directions. I'm suppose to be getting a video in the mail outlining the procedure.
I'm hoping to keep my stall half as clean as you all do! If I could only potty train my boys....
Sandy
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New Member:
Johnmell
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 1:45 am:
I too am looking at using the GrandMaster porous mats for new stalls. I've got a 5 - 7 inch depth dug out so I can put in a base of something (e.g. crushed rock). Just don't know which type of mat would be best. The biggest downside of the porous mat seems to be cleaning them since there isn't a nice slick surface to run your shovel or rake across. Any input??
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Member:
Albionsh
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 10:42 am:
Our barn is progressing and we are almost ready to put down the mat system. All that is needed now is to bring in the water truck and roller. Since we are finishing the ground system before we install the wood in the building ends and stall walls, we will be able to use larger equipment rather than tamping down the DG (decomposed granite) with a hand operated wacker/vibrater. We chose DG over crushed rock, which is over the solid rock of the site. The matting is in one-piece strips about 14 feet wide that are heat-welded together at the seams. The edges are turned under and heat-welded ito a solid piece, and all edges are fastened down into the ground with long U pins. The installer sells the system with a year warrenty, but I have seen stalls that have been in use for three years and they look like new. If a shoe nail should make a tear, it can be repaired with a heat-applied patch. I probably will put down one rubber mat at each stall doorway where the most traffic will be, then about 2 inches of shavings over all.
I located a supplier of helpful bacteria and digestive enzymes and I will be mixing these with water and applying after installation of the matting, then once a week at the obvious urine spots. We pick our stalls twice a day or whenever we see a fresh pile, so I hope this whole flooring system will turn out to be effective and efficient. Let you'all know in a couple of years!
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Member:
Albionsh
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 8, 2004 - 10:54 am:
Here is the web site for the matting system:
www.RREquineSolutions.com
I may be working with the maufacturer and distributing the organic stall wash, but I want to try it out first...
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Member:
patricia
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 11:22 pm:
I see that the most recent post in this thread is dated 9-8-04. I'd be interested in any new comments regarding permeable or non-permeable stall mats. I have only one stall to consider but am interested in member's recommendations as to which type/brand stall mat they prefer.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 7:51 am:
My stalls are a sand base with about 3" of gravel on top of that. Then we have a Paper Mill (salvage) item that is best described as a very tough woven nylon. Urine does drain through it and I like that. Once every summer I roll it back and level the gravel again if needed, and take a pressure washer to the flooring. I can take them right out if I have to as I just have it attached to the walls with boards.
If someday in the future I can up grade to "real" stall mats, I'd go with those which drain as I don't really use bedding except what hay they stand on. I put an extra flake in their pee spots for their comfort to prevent splattering.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Friday, Apr 27, 2007 - 11:45 pm:
We dug out our stalls and layered gravel, sand then crushed concrete. We leveled each layer as it was installed. The crushed concrete ( after it was leveled ), was wet and rolled with a weighted hand roller, allowed to dry, then wet and rolled again. We put our rubber mats on top of this. We did our friend's barn this way in 2000. He liked it so much that he did his aisle the next year. When we put up our barn in 2005, we used this method. We use pelleted bedding, but only 3 bags per 12 x 10 stall. The stalls are a chinch to clean. Most of the urine is soaked up by the bedding and any that might drain through, dissipates. There is no smell, the mats are tightly fit and remain flat and in place. My friend's barn gets much heavier use than mine. He has more horses, a couple boarders, and sometimes uses stalls for cows that have calved early ( in cold weather ). We've only had to make one or two minor adjustments - and when we did, the crushed concrete underneath was in perfect shape. The mats are all in good shape and make a great level stall floor that is cushiony and provides good traction.
Over the years, I've had my horses on concrete, wood, and dirt floors. This arrangement is, by far, the most luxurious I've ever had. It's also, for me, the cleanest and the easiest to care for.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009 - 7:13 pm:
Resurrecting this thread:
As I posted last month, I am redoing my flooring. My stalls will be for eating , drinking and occasionally during ice storms.
I dont want to use any bedding (most of the year)so that *hopefully* the horses will pee outside in the corral or pastures.
I am considering stallskins (cheaper, easier to install myself) I saw that the stallskins recommend deeply bedding with them and also call them durable... Are they too flimsy to use without bedding? Anyone ever try them w/out bedding?
Thanks
Leslie
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Member:
kathrynr
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 12:17 pm:
Leslie I have stall skins in my stalls which are used pretty much as you will. I don't think that they are too flimsy. Mine are over hard packed clay with a 4 x 4 hole in the middle that I filled with gravel for urine drainage (now if I could just convince them both to go in just this spot!) I think the bedding is to protect the fabric from wear and tear really. I have about 3 inches of shavings in mine and they seem to be holding up fine but I think with limited use they would probably be ok without them as well.
I highly recommend them if you go that route,they have served me well so far.
Kat
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 15, 2009 - 11:55 pm:
Thanks Kat
That is good to know
Cheerio
Leslie
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 2:06 am:
Hi Leslie,
We put stall skins in our barn over 4 years ago. Most of the time I have little or no shavings in the stalls and they are holding up very well. None of our horses are shod though, I imagine shoes might be harder on them. We removed about 8 to 10 inches of dirt and then used an auger to dig five holes, in each corner and the center. We filled the stalls with 3/4 inch rock and leveled the floor with a vibrating plate that we rented at the local hardware store. Then we put down landscape fabric and on top of that we put 2 inches of sand for cush. Then we installed the stall skins and the only thing I would do different is to put more screws in at the doors.
Cynthia
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 1:14 pm:
Cynthia
That sounds very good. I think we may go in your direction. I like the idea of 5 drain holes. Do you need to lift the skins up occasionaly and disinfect the whole stall or ? can you pour a disinfectant on the stall skin where the drain holes are?
My guys arent shod either. It sounds like your method might work the best for us. Thanks for the input
L645
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 7:06 pm:
Hi Leslie,
I plan on pulling out the mats this summer and power washing them and redoing the sand layer. The Stall Skins comes with directions on installation and cleaning. We went further using the rock and sand. I put down the landscape fabric, which was a thin version of the stall skins to keep the sand on top of the rock. To clean the pee spots they say to use Pine Sol mixed with water. You could also use something greener. I put treated wood at the doors for something to attach the mats to,that has held up real well.I would put twice as many screws at the doorways, the horses manage to step on the belting and tear it off the wood.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 8:59 pm:
I have been experimenting with different flooring, so here is my story in case it helps anyone.
In one of my stalls I have four stall mats from Tractor Supply which cost about $250 for a 12 x 12 stall. The mats are smooth on the bottom and have grooves on the entire top (reminds me of scoring a peanut butter cookie with a fork. The grooves are very close together (1/4"?) The mats are nonpermeable. The mats are laying on a flat honeycomb recycled plastic flooring (Equiterr)which is filled with small stone. Beneath the flooring is stone/sand and slotted drainage tile. (we used the concrete manure pit of an old hog barn we had demolished to use under the stalls. it was a 4ft deep pit. we put in drainage tile then backfilled with stone/sand. leveled it then installed the Equiterra flooring.) I had hoped that I would not have to have mats, but the honeycombs plugged up with organic matter and it was as if I had a dirt floor. Urine stench. The vendor assured us this wouldn't happen--ha ha. We removed (with a drill and shop vac...) the rock/organic matter from each and everyone of the honecombs in the stall, put new stone in the honeycombs, and then the mats on top. I have been using straw for bedding in that stall (because I have a lot of straw, not because I favor a particular bedding at the moment. I use shavings in the trailer).
I usually clean the stall twice a day. The stall has access to a dry lot turnout, so often much of the manure is in the dry lot, but usually the mare in this stall goes inside to pee... Maybe I should try no bedding and see if she would rather go outside where it would splash less... So far, I like this arrangement for this horse. She prefers mats.
The other two stalls in use right now have the Equiterr flooring with the small stone and no mats. The horses in these stalls do almost all of their business in the turnout area although they will pee in there. So far, these stalls are not plugged up like the mare's stall. ?
I use hayfeeders which contain the hay, so there is very little hay on the floor or wasted--I was trying to cut down on the organic matter which would plug the honeycombs of the Equiterr.
For the price of the Equiterr flooring, I would not recommend it just so a person could mats on top of it. I think Cynthia's arrangement sounds much more cost effective and efficient.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Apr 20, 2009 - 9:54 pm:
Since I'm yakking away...
This barn was full of experiments.
We used pervious concrete in the aisle and wash rack. I love it. It is not slick. The water drains through the pervious concrete. There is no puddling or slipping. No mats needed. My only complaint is very minor--it's harder to sweep because the surface isn't smooth. Pervious concrete is fairly new. It was 30% more $ than "regular concrete". Getting the mix correct and correctly compacted is the tricky part. I wonder if pervious concrete with stall mats over it would work in a stall...or whether over time the pervious would plug...? Might have to try that one sometime.
My husband is a contractor so we got to try different things in the hope of "testing it" and then being able to sell it. (We have done pervious parking lots.)
We used the Equiterr honeycomb flooring in the turn out area off the stalls. It works great. The turnout is never muddy, or very wet. It drains beautifully. I highly recommend Equiterr for this application (or around gates or fountains).
I asked my husband to make me a stock of sorts for my wash rack. I do most everything for the horses by myself, so it sometimes is a hassle for me to tie a horse and have it dance around while I bath (clip, etc.) it. And because I am old and have screws and plates in my ankles, I like to sit on a stool to wash/clip legs and I don't need a horse moving unexpectedly! I cannot kneel or bend over for umpteen hours grooming three horses; I'll be in traction and have a sore back...yada yada He welded some stainless steel 2" hollow tubing (he said they were corn oil tubes from a food manufacturing plant he demolished) to create a stock which assembles in about 30 seconds. The two sides are hinged to the wall and will fold back flat to the wall when not in use. They are 42" off the ground. They are 32" apart. The "gate" has two pieces of rebar welded to the two legs which fits into two holes we drilled into the pervious concrete floor. The gate and sides hinge together with a removeable pin. My horses have plenty of room but cannot dance and sidestep anymore! If I can figure out how to post a pic, I will. This "stock" is worth a million bucks to me. Because it is tubing, there are no sharp edges. It is stainless, so it will not rust. Love it.
We are currently brainstorming how to make a hay chute from the hay mow to the main floor without screwing up the gambrel trusses.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 9:40 pm:
Hi Vicki,
I would love to see some pictures of your chute for washing, that sounds exactly like what I need for my wash stall. How strong is the tubing?
Cynthia
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 9:59 pm:
The tubing is plenty strong and bonus, it's not wood so the horse cannot chew on it... I could stand on the tubing and jump up and down on it and it wouldn't bend--of course I can't stand on a 2" tube, but you understand. The horses sometimes lean on it; it's sturdy.
I will have my son help me post pictures tomorrow evening. I don't know how. I should ask Diane. She puts up great pix.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 10:05 pm:
I tried to upload a random barn picture, and it said the image was too big. ? I'm not sure how to downsize it. Need a teenager to tell me how...haha
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 10:06 pm:
I should start another thread "Wash Rack"...I'm off the beaten path of mats...
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 23, 2009 - 10:31 pm:
Have you installed Picassa on your computer? After you have it you can select the pictures you want, click on export pictures at the bottom of the screen and it has a box that allows you to adjust the size of the picture. I find that 300 pixels works well.
Cynthia
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 8:27 am:
Beautiful picture! Do you have a hot wire on the vinyl fence or is that wood?
Uh, I assume Picassa is software...where do I find it? Online? I suppose I'd better do a google! Thanks for the tip.
Beautiful day here 67 at 8:30 love these days...
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 3:37 pm:
Vicki
Thanks for showing the barn pics on your Fb page. It looks wonderful. I reeeeally like the way you did the stone outside. Looks soooo clean.
My dream flooring will be Cynthia's set up for the inside and your set-up on the outside.
Love the beautiful halflingers BTW
Cheers
Leslie
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 8:34 pm:
Hi Vicki,
Yes, You can find Picassa online. It was recommended by this forum and I use it all the time now to fix my pictures and send them. My fences are vinyl, I don't have hot wire but my horses are pretty good. We did have to replace a post recently when my filly had an itchy tail and got too vigorous scratching it. I treated her tail and so far she hasn't done it again.
Cynthia
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 30, 2009 - 9:56 am:
Cynthia G I haven't forgotten to photo the washrack. Husband parked a loaded hay wagon in front of it to beat the rain. It's moved now!
I used the webresizer site Diane suggested and didn't have to download anything. Haven't tried the software suggested here on HA yet.
Leslie, I'm very happy with the drylot turnout. Still working out the kinks with the Equiterr application in the stalls. When I get the winning combo, I'll post it. The stonesize is suggested by the manufacturer of the Equiterr, and I have to say it has been NO problem with the horses shod or barefoot.
Love my Slow-Down Feeders for Hay.
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