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  Discussion on Breeding
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New Member:
Cwilliam

Posted on Friday, Oct 22, 2004 - 6:23 pm:

I have a Thoroughbred/Swedish Warmblood filly who will be 3 years old May 28, 2005. How early can I breed her?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 - 12:02 am:

A lot of people will breed at three so they will foal at age four. I prefer to wait at least another year. IMO I like to wait until I feel the mare is "grown up" both physically and mentally, and this depends on the individual horse as well as her breed characteristics. It's also my opinion that it's preferable to have the mare trained under saddle first, unless she is "only" going to be a broodmare the rest of her life, even then I think it's to her advantage, and yours, to have her trained before breeding her. Just my opinion though.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 - 7:56 am:

I agree with Sara,
The fourth and fifth year is critical for a horse's training. I'd prefer that she's not pregnant during these two years, unless of course, that's her only job.
If she's a broodmare, yes, I believe three years is safe. I'd wait another year for her body to develop a bit so that she can, supposedly, handle the pregnancy better, but I don't think this point of view has much, if any, scientific support.

Christos
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 - 4:52 pm:

I think it really depends on the individual mare. I currently have a gorgeous 2.5 year old filly (Westfalian). She was a premie when born and spent the first week in intensive care at the local clinic strapped to a waterbed and undergoing plasma transfusions and other invasive but necessary procedures. From the very minute she was born, she demonstrated a very alpha personality and staying at the clinic and being a "pin cushion" for a week just seemed to accentuate this trait. When I brought her home, she (likely justifiably) seemed to think that everyone was out to get her and was extremely stand-offish and distrustful - the clinic staff actually said "good luck with that one!" when I shipped her home.

I've tried everything in the past few years to diffuse her aggression with varying degrees of success. While she acknowledges that I am the leader of the pack and she can be lead, tied, trimmed and groomed without problem, she still maintains an angry and defiant countenance. With strangers she can be downright bad.

I normally wait to breed my mares until they are at least 4 so that they foal out at 5 and have had a small degree of work under saddle. But in her particular case and taking into account that she is a large and good-boned filly, my vet (a reproductive specialist who lectures all around the world) has advised me to breed her when she turns 3 as he feels it will serve to mellow her personality somewhat. Since I feel she will be a very tough case to work with under saddle unless she DrOps a bit of attitude, I'm going with this plan. But this is strictly something I'm reserving for this particular filly and not a pattern that I would adhere to with other, less aggressive fillies.

Hope this helps.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 - 5:47 pm:

Sue-I will be very surprised if this helps your mare, but I hope it works for me better than it does for me. I've tried this tactic with two different mares, as I'd always heard a mare would change one she had a foal. One mare was sweet, but very "hyper" to ride, and the other was either extremely "alpha" or really insecure. The way she faced the world was "ears back" and with lots of "attitude." The first mare became the wonderful mother of several beautiful foals, all very sweet and well behaved. However, at the age of 24 she still is "hyper" to ride. The second mare had one foal, which had to be taken away from her as she at first was afraid of it, then tried to kill it. After drugging her for several days and milking her with the help of three other people, I put the foal on Foal Lac and sold the mare. She is now a beautiful show mare with a testy personality when not under saddle.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 4:00 am:

For what it's worth, I would not breed a mare with attitude problems, as, besides the possibility of the attitude being hereditary, I wouldn't want to add more problems to her already troubled mind.
If I remember well, Sara, foal rejection is highly hereditary in Arabians. I believe that removing that mare from reproduction was a very wise choice, and I'd be extra careful with breeding her foal.

Christos
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 8:30 am:

I bred my mare and she was a show jumper. She was orphaned and grew up lowest on the pecking order. The warm up ring was always a challenge as she thought the horses coming in the opposite direction were trying to 'get her'. She always had impeccable manners around people.
After foaling and weaning she went back to showing. What a difference, she was no longer afraid of the horses in the schooling area. At home she has become queen of the farm and is very alpha now. She was an excellent mother and is in foal again. For her the change was good because now she has more confidence but wouldn't think to even give a human a mean look, she is a sweetie.

Last year I bred a mare that was very alpha. It was her first foal and she was not maternal at all. We had to twitch her to let the foal nurse the first 24 hours. We had rubbed her teats daily and she didn't mind when we did it...just not the foal. She wouldn't share hay with the foal and didn't like the foal in her personal space. Other than nursing she had 'no love' for that foal and did try to kick her (to kill) twice when galloping around the pasture. We weaned at 3 months. The mare whinnied once and that was the end of it.

-------------------------------------------
In most cases, breeding a 3 year old should be just fine. Many WB breeders will breed at three, start them lightly and then leave them to be restarted at 4 1/2.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 12:01 pm:

You are right re: Arabians rejecting foals. Infact, this mare was part of a study on rejection. The mare was raised by a breeder well known for their show horses. However, the horses were raised in a very artificial setting. They were in large stalls with runs, and never turned out together. They only went out of their stalls to be groomed, etc. and to be put on a hot walker for exercise. Young mares never saw a foal until they had one of their own. If a foal was rejected it was placed in a stall with a bucket of Foal Lac which had a nipple on it (like those used for calves) and the foal either made it or didn't. Very sad.

The mare we had was beautiful, but really a mental/emotional case. She did fine when on her own or when under saddle. We did breed her foal (filly) to a very laid back stallion (ours.) At first she acted afraid of her foal, then became so overprotective she wouldn't let the foal out of her sight even to allow it to nurse. We worked with her extensively, and she turned out to be an excellent brood mare. It was my conclusion that in large part being a good mother is learned as well as hereditary. I never saw the results of the study, but other participants I talked with had similar results as I did. In several cases, the maress that rejected their foals, after 2 or 3 foals became good broodmares. The mare we had not only rejected the foal, she tried to kill it, and never produced any milk-even with hormone shots.

I totally agree with you regarding breeding with attitude problems. After breeding for many years (20+) I think the mare is actually much more important than the stallion as she not only contributes her genes, but is largely responsible for the foals attitude and behaviour in later life. Mares that are good mothers, and that discipline their foals, teach them herd rules, give us young horses with the best minds and temperments.
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 - 1:42 pm:

My filly is not alpha with other horses, just with people so the risk of her rejecting a foal should be no greater than that of any other mare. She has never shown aggression to other horses. Her mother, on the other hand, is an alpha mare in the true horse sense but has been a fantastic broodmare with strong maternal instincts for all of her many foals.

I have to defer to my repro vet's experience of seeing behavioral changes in certain mares after breeding. His knowledge is extensive in this area and I have great faith in his assessment of this particular filly's anti-social personality with people being directly related to her traumatic start in life.

Again, I think these decisions have to be made on a case by case basis and there is no one golden rule for all.
Member:
Hankkk

Posted on Saturday, Oct 7, 2006 - 11:38 pm:

I have a mare we are training and she keep going in to heat
is there any thing I can give her to keep her from coming in to heat
and if so what is this
thank you
wade
Member:
Sully

Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 4:29 am:

you could try a marble....just search this site using the keyword "marble" will bring up discussions about its use.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 8:47 am:

For this and other techniques see, Training Horses » Behavioral Problems » Suppressing Heat and Estral Behavior in Mares.
DrO
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