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Discussion on Malnourished mare is smelly - an indication of something more?
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 1:08 pm:
About 5 weeks ago, I took in a boarder out of sympathy for the horse. She is grossly underweight - a 1 or 2 on the scale. I put her on a 50/50 alfalfa/bermuda diet, and built up to feeding her the same quantities as I feed my warmblood mare. Her skeleton is painfully obvious, although my fingers no longer sink a half inch between her ribs. I think we are headed in the right direction.
When she got here, she stank. Her urine and her manure were absolutely vile smelling. It improved significantly within about two weeks of good feed although the stench did not disappear.
Wanting to help bulk her up, I asked my vet for suggestions of supplemental feed I should offer her (understanding the owner does not have the funds to buy much). He suggested beet pulp, which the mare eats happily.
The problem is, she's become smellier since starting the beet pulp. Could this be her system having difficulty with the carbs in the beet pulp, or an indication of something else going on?
She has a laundry list of typical neglected horse ailments, including rain scald, an ancient and heavily scabbed withers sore (on it's way to healing), teeth problems, feet issues, and the obvious muscle loss. I worry that she could be pre-Cushings because she urinates frequently, but then I second guess myself that it could be an old habit of filling up on water when feed was not so available.
She has restricted water intake while in her stall, and free acess to a mineral block (which she actually bit chunks out of the first few days, but licks normally now.)
I have asked the owner to have a vet out, or he will have to share a call with me at my vet's next visit. He is new to horses and does not comprehend in what dire condition this little mare is.
If the stench is an idication of something significant, then I will schedule my own visit earlier to force the issue with the owner. Otherwise, my vet is not due out for a month, and I do not believe this owner will take the initiative to call his vet out any earlier.
Thanks in advance for your insight.
Erin Jaffarian
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 2:50 pm:
Hello Erin,
It could be that this poor mare is still adjusting to a new or better diet. I haven't heard of Beet Pulp being high in carbohydrates though.
The only other thing I can think of is a deworming program or lack thereof.
This mare is obviously showing signs of ill health from past abuses and neglect. All you can do at this point is damage control.
Would it help if you sat down and discussed with the horse owner the basic cost of horse keeping? i.e. Vet, farrier, quality feed, vaccines and deworming programs. Perhaps a good vet exam at the owner's expense would alleviate any doubts on your part as to what this mare's problems are.
Guessing on my part would be something in the gastrointestinal department caused by....?
Good Luck with this mare.
Susan B.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 5:04 pm:
Erin,
I cannot answer your question, but reading your post put tears in my eyes. This horse is so lucky to have you taking care of her. I hope in time, with the good care you are giving her, that her condition will improve. I have seen these miracles before, so I know it can happen. I am sure others will respond with better advice. Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2004 - 6:49 pm:
Thanks Susan and Linda for the thoughts.
When I wormed mine two weeks ago, I gave her a partial dose (the left overs from my 300 lb mini's tube). I will continue to worm her on my schedule (even on my own dime) because it is too important to my own horses' health.
I have been slowly feeding the owner information on horse keeping costs. I insisted he schedule farrier visits in advance (she had pulled a shoe and he was going to ride her that way until I said no). I spoke with his farrier so that she understands the owner's educational needs. I gave him his first shopping list, which included ointment for all her bites and scratches, a hoof dressing, and betadine scrub to start dealing with the skin diseases, and a few other items. He has not yet purchased any.
I am being cautious with the depth of discussion with him because I am afraid he would become overwhelmed and abandon her. As it stands, he pays me enough to keep her fed in a clean stall with clean water. I take care of her injuries because I can't stand to leave them.
Forcing the issue with the vet call is one of those easy ways of getting her care  .
E.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 6:21 am:
Bacterial overgrowth, dehydration, and excessive tissue breakdown can all result in foul or strong odors. The beet pulp requires some adjustment for the bowels but once adjusted I suspect things will return to the previous state. My clients do not report a change in smell when putting a horse on beet pulp.
DrO
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Member:
Tlcstabl
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 2:51 pm:
Erin,
Here is my 2 cents worth.....
Can you tell which end the smell is coming from or is it a more generalized smell?
"Front end" smell -- I would check her mouth and sinuses. Food being caught in the cheek pouches and decomposing, bad teeth, periodontal disease, missing teeth and food being stuck in there, etc.
"Back end" smell -- something not right with her digestion if feces do not smell right or are of abnormal size, shape and consistency, possible kidney infection/damage from when she was dehydrated, uterine infection, possibly diabetic with that "decomposing sweet" smell, etc.
"Top side" smell -- probably due to the sores that you mentioned
"Bottom side" smell -- Check for scratches on her legs, thrush in her feet, etc.
"General all around" smell -- could be just her body getting rid of toxins from the tissue breakdown like Dr. O mentioned.
If she has a normal TPR (temperature, pulse, respiration), there are probably no immediate worries as long as she is eating, drinking, urinating, and pooping normally. She is sure lucky that she has someone as caring as you to take care of her even when her owner won't. Thank you for caring and standing up for her.
Sherry
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 4:07 pm:
Thanks for the response Dr. O. I know she is not dehydrated (at the last barn, she was drinking to keep her stomach full, and continued to do so the first week here, until she realized no one was going to steal her food, and more would show up the next meal). I am sure her bateria levels are screwed up, but I feel confident those will return to normal shortly. I worry about the last item, tissue breakdown:
*Is this a great enough concern to get a vet out now rather than in a month?
And thanks for the thoughts Sherry. There is nothing sweet smelling about this mare, vile is putting it mildly. It is the internal functions I am most concerned about - those diseases that don't make themselves readily apparent, like kidney and liver disorders. Because she is not mine, I cannot force a vet call (I have tried, believe me.) But, if smell is an indication of a significant health risk, I want to use it in my arsenal of reasons for why the owner should have the vet out immediately.
Thanks.
Erin
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Member:
Ribbons
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 4:18 pm:
Erin, I "smell" your pain. One of our mares is very smelly. She smelled when we bought her five years ago. She smelled through changing her diet. She smelled when we put her on a regular worming program. She smelled a on antibiotics. She receives the best care imaginable and she still stinks. She's a great mare, but she reeks! Especially in the winter with her blanket on. We just chock it up to her "quirk" and make sure we change clothes after touching her and before going out in public! Practical Horseman had an article on possible causes of excess odor in horses a few months ago. I don't remember what month, but you may be able to search their archives.
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2004 - 4:32 pm:
Thanks Teresa. I've got all my back issues of PH, so I'll go look it up. I appreciate hearing that perfectly normal healthy horses can be stinky (!) in part because I am pretty sure that when this owner realizes just how much money and effort horses really are, he'll change his mind on playing cowboy and abandon her to me. I think I'll be building her a stall and enclosure of her very own (sniff, sniff) so the barn doesn't smell like the sewer system backed up into it!
Erin
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 4, 2004 - 11:11 am:
The tissue breakdown could be normal reversible processes like malnutrition or it could be secondary to systemic disease: the way to find out is a good exam and lab workup. If it comes back without any obvious disease problems you assume the best. When to call the vet really depends on your resources and goals but until you do there is increased uncertainty of the horses health status.
DrO
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2004 - 1:05 pm:
Thanks, Dr. O.
SInce everything else about her seems right on (clear eyes, alert, interested in her surroundings, and putting on weight) I will continue to monitor her health and plan for a January check up.
I truly appreciate this web site.
Erin
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2005 - 3:06 pm:
This is the smelly malnourished mare discussed above. She doesn't smell bad anymore (that took about 6 weeks to get out of her system) but she is still so thin. How long does it take to get them back to big, beautiful health? Are there some that never will?
Background: Took in boarder in November because of the condition of his horse. She was a 1 on the 1-10 scale - you could see every vertabrae.
She is on the same hay and worming schedule as my healthy happy warmblood, and gets as much as she can eat (mix of alfalfa and grass). She has gained enough in the past 2 1/2 months that her backbone is a single unbroken line, her butt is no longer sunken and her ribs are mostly covered. She is actually starting to get dapples in her coat.
I figure she needs another 200 pounds or so, and that she's probably gained about 100 pounds plus. Is a gain of 40 to 50 pounds a month reasonable? What bench marks should I look for?
Thanks for any thoughts or experience anyone has on the topic.
Erin
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 7:19 am:
It takes plenty of time, particularly during the winter, the important thing is that you see steady progress. As long as there are no other disease problems, recovery will be nearly 100%.
I would not try and quess a particular weight as this is not your goal, you are trying to reach a certain condition: around a 6 on the Heineke scale discussed in the article on estimating condition.
DrO
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 1:14 pm:
I took on a malnurished rescue the first week in july, he was between a 1 & 2, and finally in december he looked good between a 4 & 5,still needs more meat on him but atleast his butt has cheeks. I think that he will always be a lean horse. He smelled really bad also but once he secreted all the toxins that were stored in his body because of being starved, the smell went away.
I didn't really look for bench marks as long as he didn't go in reverse that was good enough for me. I think around month 3 he stopped looking like a skeleton. Senior, and beet pulp helped alot. Just remeber to soak it, everyone likes to add that, it never occured to me that anyone would feed it hard. I would say he averaged about 40 pounds a month. as he was 400 pounds underweight.
It just takes lots of time and care. Age is a big factor too. Soaking the grain/pulp will really allow her to get all that she can, if she is older and needs her teeth done.
how long has this guy had this mare? Did she get this way under his care?
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Member:
Ejar
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 5:33 pm:
Thanks Dr. O and Cheryl for the posts. Yes, I am seeing steady improvement in the mare, and I guess I will keep my expectations at that. We take monthly photos of her to log her improvement. I'll stay happy with her progress for another few months!
Cheryl, supplemental feed is up to the boarder, which is a hit and miss. He has purchased a variety of feeds for her, sometimes dumping it in bulk in her feeder, sometimes leaving it for me to feed. Because I give her as much hay as she wants and keep something in front of her all the time, I can't fret over the supplemental feed. This young man has owned her for six months now, three of them boarded with me. I have kept him off her back during that time, made him have the farrier out (she is due again - another fight for me), put them on a deworming schedule, and required that he have the vet out. He has been late every month with his meager board fee (just covers feed and manure removal).
I don't think the horse's condition is his fault for two reasons: she looked on death's door when he brought her here, and he had only owned her for three months, and he is concerned for her wellfare, even though he can't truly afford it.
I'll e-mail again when we hit the six month mark.
Erin
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 11:52 am:
they hay will do good for her erin it will just take a while. The alfalfa mix is really good stuff.
it sounds like the kid is trying, which is good but sometime down the road you may have to step in.
TAke care
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