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| Discussion on Is this under run heels? | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2007 - 6:14 pm: Ok, let's see if I can make a long story short.This is Mac, 4 yo QH gelding, 15 hh. He was sound, barefoot, until last fall when mysteriously lame on front left, and vet diagnosed him with "small feet-big horse" synDrOme and said he'd need to be shod for life on the fronts. I put shoes on him last fall for about 8 weeks, he was fine, then pulled them off for the winter and re-shod in the spring and summer until about 5 weeks ago. He's still fine, and he's still being ridden. In the summer I pointed out to my farrier that I felt Mac's heels were too far forward, and he agreed that perhaps they could come back a bit, but with the shoes on, his "heels" were back further and his weight properly balanced above them. Now his shoes are off, and I think his heels are too far forward and should be corrected. The farrier is willing, and says there is not enough hoof to make adjustments as is, and proposes shoes, pads, and possibly wedges. This would be done next month on his next visit, and would mean shoes during a Canadian winter, which is something I don't like to think about. Also, I'm not certain of the farrier's ability to do this, particularly as he's the one who should have been on top of this all along. So, I've spent the entire day reading posts on this website, and a farrier site, and am just more confused. Some farriers says the shoeing causes the problem in the first place, others say you can't correct it without shoeing, another one says you can't fix it at all. Is this under run heels? Is it something else? I am worrying for nothing? If it is a problem, please, someone suggest something to fix it that doesn't require me to dig through 3 more websites.    
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| Member: amara |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2007 - 7:14 pm: Hi Michelle..this is one of the most confusing topics ever i think... can they be corrected without shoes? yes... can this farrier do it?... not so sure of that... this horse's feet are in pretty poor shape balance wise, and unfortunately this farrier has let him get that way... first off can you post whole leg and a few whole body pics... it really helps to get an total view of how the horse stands up...there's a lot more to feet than just the foot...we also need shots of the view from his heel to toe, to see what kind of depth he has... it looks like shoes were just recently taken off in these photos and that is probably the reason why the walls appear so ragged...it might take a long while to get his heels back because there might not be enough foot to work with for awhile, especially since his feet seem to need a little TLC to support lack of shoes... have his feet always looked like this? or is the underrun heel thing a recent deal.. the reason i am asking is that his breakover is way too far back, based on where his heel should be, and that can create stress and pain in his feet... his heels are uneven, even in their underrun state.. the m-l balance is off, especially in the right front... how long after his last trim were these pics taken? its hard to tell from these shots, but are his toes rolled at all? looks like maybe a little on the r.front?... is there a good barefoot trimmer in your area?... if you want to keep your horse barefoot i have always found that someone who understands how to do barefoot exclusively to generally do a better job than someone who specializes in shoeing and generally just does pasture trims... good luck.. as i'm sure you've read thru other posts on this forum you've seen that you're in fot a bit of a haul.. sorry... |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 21, 2007 - 8:56 pm: Well, lets see. He had this farrier from weanling to age 2, and I didn't like his heels then either. Then a new farrier came around and things got better. Then last summer he left, and I was back to the original guy again, who has improved somewhat, but Mac is back to this state again. He says it has something to do with his natural conformation.These pictures were taken today, about 4 to 5 weeks since the shoes were pulled. Mac generally doesnt' have fast hoof growth compared to my other horses. Yes, the sole picture of the right foot is not even, I agree with you there. What is an improvement is that the left foot used to look the same, just reversed. That has changed since early spring. I had pointed that out to the farrier as well, and I'm not sure if he was consciously trying to improve this, or if it just happened. His toes were rolled when the trim was done. I'm posting two pics of the two other angles I took today, not sure if it's what you meant. Also, one picture of the whole horse. He's not standing quite straight, but close. Again, not sure if it will tell you what you wanted to know.   
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| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2007 - 7:08 am: Hello Michele,Yes these heels are underrun and while some changes will be permanent you can improve the foot quite a bit. However there are no quick fixes and the problem needs to be carefully evaluated with a thorough understanding of what's going on before appropriate correction can be made. Your hooves are a bit odd because though you have run under heels the toe is not long, just the opposite they appear somewhat rolled at the toe. Is the shortened toe new? Some of the images suggest (based on the striations of protein in the horn of the heel not being parallel with the striations at the toe) a chronic run under heels has been a chronic problem longer than just this past years changes. It is also clear in some images the heels have been recently breaking out which leads to an even stronger impression of being run under. I don't wonder if there hasn't been a run under condition for some time that has become exaggerated with the recent breaking out. If I have this assessed right your job is three fold: 1) Properly balance the foot. 2) Provide protection and good support for the heels. 3) Improve the quality of the horn and possible the horn's environment. I cannot tell you how to do these things in a few sentences so you really need to study these articles so you can understand what is going on and double check my appraisal and discuss principles with your farrier. The first two points are covered in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Correcting Long Toe Low Heel Foot Conformation and has principles for you to use even though your toes are not long. The third point is covered in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Poor Horn Quality: problems with the wall and soles DrO |
| Member: canderso |
Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2007 - 7:13 am: Hi Michelle,In all fairness to the farrier, his feet are awfully small for his size... BUT I am really bad at seeing hoof imbalances and I can see his quite clearly. Which farrier pulled the shoes? Whose idea was it? |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2007 - 9:30 am: Dr O,No, the shortened toe isn't new; yes, the heels have been a chronic long term battle that I thought we were effectively dealing with with the last farrier, and now it looks like I am back to square one with the original farrier again. Also, what do you mean about the horn quality being poor? I know his toes look pretty rough in the pictures, but those are the nail holes from the last shoes. The side picture of the FR has a bit of flake hanging at the heel, which is soft, thin, and peeling, and I didn't think that was an issue. Was I wrong? Mac is on pasture turnout 24/7. Cheryl, The current farrier pulled the shoes, the other guy left here last summer and is now 400+ miles away. We mutually agreed to pull the shoes for 2 reasons; 1) the only way he was going to make it out here was if he didn't spend time shoeing because he had no room in his schedule for it; 2) Mac was going to be having less riding on the gravel and more in the fields since the crops were off, and protection from gravel wasn't an issue; and I suppose you can add in a third reason, which is I'm always in favor of a barefoot horse unless absolute need requires otherwise. I guess now I have to figure out if this can be done without shoes this winter, and if not, how to keep him safe with them on. More reading, I guess. I think I'll take these pictures in to my local vet today and see if he can communicate with the farrier a better plan. Fortunately, they two of them DO work together frequently. |
| Member: imogen |
Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2007 - 11:30 am: I think your vet was right... those are actually the smallest feet on the largest horse I have ever seen.You need to try to get some weight off him as well I think... does he stumble much when ridden? Best wishes, hope that this is not too harsh, like Cheryl I'm just saying what I'm seeing as you posted the pictures and asked... I can also understand what the farrier was saying that there is not enough hoof at the moment to make much of a change. Does this horse need to be in work at the moment? Can you restrict his food and stop working him for a while until the hoof grows and can be trimmed? Imogen |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Monday, Oct 22, 2007 - 12:00 pm: I guess maybe I should take better pictures of him to post. He's actually not a big horse, and aside from my daughter's pony, the smallest one I own at 15 hh, and somewhat smaller boned than the others, too. This is the first season he hasn't needed extra feed to keep weight on, and he's not overweight, but I will admit not as toned as he was earlier this summer when he was in steady training.Yes, his feet ARE small for his size, there is no doubt about that. Yes, he DOES stumble when ridden, not constantly, but I believe more frequent than he should. Landing heel first is desirable, and I can only assume that he still is, as I haven't gone out and lunged him lately to see what he is doing now. It's on the list for this week, though. He's not working now, might get a ride or two in a week and then a week or more off, and won't be ridden at all through the winter. Don't worry, you don't sound harsh, you are all just confirming what I have suspected for some time - we have a problem! Keep the ideas/comments/advice coming. |
| Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 7:33 am: Michelle, the horn at the heels that is breaking out would be the poor quality horn that needs to be addressed. With 24 hours pasture, what have conditions been like recently? Has it been wet or is there something in the environment that leads to chronic recurring wetting of the feet? Even if not the suggestions in the article on poor quality horn may lead to tougher horn.DrO |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 9:07 am: It's been cool temps since the beginning of September, with a fair amount of rain. It's hard to dry out when the heat isn't there.I think I'll invest in a good hoof supplement for him, as well. Yesterday I took the above pics in to the vet for his comments, but he was out, so I'm waiting for him to phone me back. It's a starting point. I have talked to several people who use the same farrier, and not many feel he can go solo and get this fixed, so hopefully if I can get the vet to watch over him, we can do it. Otherwise, there is a farrier about 1 1/2 hours from here that is rumored to be decent. I'm going to make some enquiries about him. I think after that the next step is to maybe take a few courses for myself and get better educated. This is too good a horse to watch go downhill at 4 years old. |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 11:44 am: Just talked to the vet and he is in agreement with me, and everyone here, about the balance etc of these feet. However, he says that using an acrylic or something similar to build up the heels just isn't an option here (meaning, in this area - no one has any experience with it), and it would have to be wedge pad. He says go ahead and do it all in one trim and wedge him, but realize that there will be some soreness, and feel free to give him bute for a few days, after all, he's going to be standing in a snowbank all winter anyway.I have to say I'm a bit concerned about doing this all at once. I told him my concerns about the farrier, and he agrees that the other guy was definitely better, but we don't have any other options around here at the moment. He said "the customer is always right" tell him (the farrier) what you want and stand there and make him do it. That's easier said than done when I don't know if each swipe of the rasp is improving things or not until the foot is back on the ground, and then it's too late to make changes until the next trim. I think I am going to further my education in hoof care. Anyone know a good tutorial for a wanna be do-it-yourself farrier to learn with? And, does anyone have any advice about the wedge pads, please? |
| New Member: minge |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 12:24 pm: Michelle,I just put a wedged pad on one front foot last month. After 10 days the horse seemed very uncomfortable in his feet and uneven in his gate but it has now been a little over 3 weeks and he seems fine. My farrier had said that I should not make any decision about whether we were on the right track with him until the pad had been on for at least 2 weeks. I think he was right. |
| Member: terrilyn |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 12:53 pm: I have always kept my horses barefoot, but really didn't know much about balance and angles. I now know that pasture trims are quite different from barefoot trims and wholeheartedly agree with Melissa's statement "i have always found that someone who understands how to do barefoot exclusively to generally do a better job than someone who specializes in shoeing and generally just does pasture trims..."I'm working to keep my two barefoot and healthy using a farrier who exclusively trims using the techniques of folks like Pete Ramey (hoofrehab.com). If you want to embark on some interesting reading, that's a good place to start. So far we are having a good experience, but it may take a full hoof's growth (9 months to a year) before I get my TB's feet to where they should be...and meanwhile, I've committed to riding him with boots if/when it's called for. And it may ALWAYS be called for on certain terrain...and that's fine too. Truly, someone above stated how confusing this topic is...and it surely is. There is lots of info on barefoot trimming and pros and cons on this site and I don't mean to get into that here, but did want to pass on the website as a good resource if you are planning to consider options that don't necessarily include shoeing. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 9:14 pm: My guy who had underrun heals that were breaking away indicated a need for those heels to be taken DOWN. My New (a year ago) farrier was smart enough to realize that the breaking horn indicated this. He gradually corrected the problem and my poor boy who was lunging himself around the pasture for years and being tender-footed now has a floating trot for the first time in his life (he is 23-years old now). His heels were very close to being "contracted" but that problem has also been solved and he now has heels that are wider apart and feet that are larger. |
| Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 9:33 pm: Hi Michelle,I'm not an expert, and also not religious on barefoot or shod (I have both). But I do want to ask a question: is your horse sound? I agree that his feet have many problems, and that it is in his long-term interest that you find a way to improve their care dramatically. But I have always been hesitant about making huge all-at-once hoof changes on a sound horse. Wedge pads are great when you need them (I have a horse who lives in a wedge/bar on her right fore). But they can increase pressure on the suspensory and other structures as they change the angle of the foot. So I guess I would just suggest that, if the horse is sound, you take that into consideration as you evaluate the nature and severity of his problems (as well as long-term impact etc.). Good luck! |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 11:24 pm: Yes, ironically he IS sound. It's been a year since his first and only episode of lamness. However, if his heels keep progressing as they are, I can't see it lasting long.I'm with you on on the big change theory - I don't like it either. I've always wondered at horse people who let their horses feet get terribly overgrown and then trim them up just right, and wonder why their horse is lame. Gee guys, ever think the 4" of hoof you just knocked off might have something to do with it? The farrier I used to have, the one I really liked, was a big fan of Pete Ramey, and constantly told people about the Hope for Soundness website. I learned a lot from him, but I went back and reviewed it all again in the last 3 days, and I could probably quote most of it by heart now. I've ordered some of their instructional videos, and I'm going to get even better educated so I know exactly what I am talking about when I ask my farrier to do EXACTLY what I want (or learn to do it myself), and despite what my vet said, it's not going to be wedge everything all at once if there's any other choice. I like this vet, but he IS the same guy who told me to can my arthritic horse because I'd never ride him again, and I just went team penning with that horse last weekend. I don't know which of us had more fun! Keep the comments and ideas coming, as always, you guys are helping a lot. |
| Member: juliem |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 23, 2007 - 11:37 pm: I think you're on the right track to educate yourself and not make huge changes to a sound horse! As you learn, you'll be able to use a rasp and make small changes before the need for big ones arises. I think you can get these feet looking a lot better if you are able to leave him barefoot and do a little rasping at a time. I know it seems counter intuitive, but keeping his heels back to the widest part of the frog--which seems like lowering them--will probably be the place to start. It would be good if you could have someone show you how to balance his heels as it's hard to describe, but Pete Ramey and Jamie Jackson have good books and there are several websites. There are a few members here who are pretty savvy as well! Someone recommended www.barefoothorse.com and as I remember I looked at it and found it helpful. |
| Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Oct 24, 2007 - 9:19 am: I've wedged, padded, and raised the heels and had all kinds of shoes on the boy I described above. Anything that helped was only temporary. Another of my boys who I kept the heels raised on (due to over reaching and strain and upon the advice of a Vet.) ultimately got DJD in his hocks. In both cases, what was needed was an excellent farrier who worked with each horse's natural way of going and perfectly balancing their feet without trying to "fix" anything through manipulation. It took about a year for the above horse to be totally corrected, (though his relief was greatly evident after the first trim) which he NEVER had been in the prior 14 years that I had owned him. He became perfectly sound in a few months, but he continued to improve his way of moving over the time of a year. Part of the process with mine was getting the shoes off and letting the feet grow out enough where they began to break, and that breakage helped the farrier to interpret the foot and what was happening. The breakage is the horse's way of trying to heal himself. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 10:49 am: Michelle,I am at the learning stage of trimming my 4 horses and have been following your post and studying the pictures. I have a mare with very flat feet, and her heels always look run under. The other day I was reviewing Jaime Jackson's book; "Horse Owners Guide to Natural Hoof Care" and on page 229 there is a schematic for restoring a runaway hoof. Your horse doesn't have a long toe but I am thinking you'd do the same thing. What he says is first trim, shorten the toe wall. O.K. you don't have much toe, so just touch up the roll. He says don't thin the outer wall (called snubbing) and don't shorten the heels now. 4 weeks later, he says do the same, again leave the heel alone...hmm...I think by now if my horse looked like yours, I'd take a few swipes of the heels, as long as they were above the frog. 8 weeks, 3rd trim, shorten toe, and heels. He says by now the heels should be where they need to be. Of course we all know there is nothing set in stone on horse's hooves. Of course take the quarters down and keep things even. I've noticed since following this method, my mare does have her feet under her where they should be. I still don't think the weight bearing part of her hoof is correct, nor have I achieved a nice "bowl" shaped bottem of her foot, but she is moving nicely I think. If your horse were mine, I'd just keep touching it up every 3 weeks, being careful not to do too much. The hardest is waiting to see what happens. Just keep track on a calendar and don't touch them any sooner than 3-4 weeks!!! Just another opinion. Keep us updated, I am curious to see what works for your horse. Good luck! Angie |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 12:26 pm: Hi AngieThanks for your comments. Nice to hear from someone else who is starting to do their own trimming. I've read a lot of stuff on this site about foot care. I won't claim to have read it all, I've already learned there is no such thing with this site. I believe I have read every single word on the subject on hopeforsoundness.com, and barefoothorse.com, and probably even ironfreehorse, as well as a great deal of info on horseshoes.com. In fact, I've read most of it 3 or more times just to get it all straight in my head. My own personal conclusion after doing all of this is that I will not be putting shoes on this winter, and with luck, never again. This horse is sound, and I'm going to try making small changes with his heels so that he stays sound, but hopefully gains better heels at the same time. I'm also going to incorporate a mustang roll into his trim. I'm going to follow him with pictures every time so I can sit in my house and study them, and watch for changes. One thing I've discovered about photos, you find a lot of stuff that you can't see when you have that few moments with a foot in your hand. (Like his foot with the sole that is greater on one side compared to the other has a taller hoof wall on one side). He does have round feet, he does have concave soles, and his toe is not overgrown, so this is all in his favor, and I'd like to think that things are not all that dire when he has this much going for him. Like you, I plan to work on a schedule of frequent trimmings, and hopefully gain some ground that way. I'm also going to try a little Borax solution soak on his feet, just in case there might be something going on with his heels/frog area that could be helped by this, and perhaps this will encourage a broader frog and heel area. If everything fails to make an improvement, even a small one, by spring, then I guess I will step back and re-evaluate and try a new plan. In the meantime, I have to buy a rasp and hoof knife... ;-) |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 1:54 pm: Sounds like we think alike, and are following the same course of action. I read, print out articles, print pictures, and also take pictures of my horses every so often to see if there are changes. You DO indeed see things looking at the pictures that you don't see trying to hold the hoof and eye ball it!I got my knifes, rasp, & sharpeners from Star-Ridge. Good quality, good prices I thought. Then a cheap rasp case from Country Supply I think. I also spray my rasp with Kool Lube after use. Oh, and that yellow Hoof Guage is also a good thing to have. I don't take measurements every time, but do sometimes just to verify things are o.k. |
| Member: kthorse |
Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2007 - 4:13 pm: Hi Michelle,I Have to agree with angie on this one. I would do exactly what she said. Not all horses need the heels taken down. The main reason they do that is to get the frog in contact with the ground. However you would not do that if it changes the angle. I cannot take my horses heels down, he starts to get under run and his toes start growing abnormally. The heels should come back by keeping him balanced and leave the heel alone for a while unless you see points or they are obviously overgrown. This is rare in a barefoot horse. Most shod horses changeing to barefoot will need the heels lowered, personally I think they lower themselves eventually given the chance. Barefoot trimmers like to rush this I think. |
| Member: mleeb |
Posted on Monday, Jan 7, 2008 - 9:49 pm: Update:November 1st blew in wild and wicked and the whole month stayed that way. By the time my farrier tools arrived in the mail, the warmest day was -30 C plus windchill. Poor Mac, he stood around a lot longer than planned before it warmed up enough for us to try a trim, and that was probably the first week of December. I had planned to do a Borax soak as well, but how do you do that in those temps? Anyway, I studied my Pete Ramey DVDs and off I went for the first trim. I had a hoof knife and a rasp. It was dissapointing that even though it had been the last week of August when he was last trimmed, there was hardly any more hoof, and very little to work with. I did what I could, somewhat awkwardly I might add, and managed to bring his heels back about 1/4". Yesterday was the second trim, and I was pleased to see he had a little bit of growth, roughly equal to last time, and I gained a little ground with the heels again, this time a little less than 1/4" I would guess. The toe is so short I have just used the smoother side of the rasp to clean it up and verify that I am at live sole, and then rocker the edges all around. The balance has improved slightly, with probably a 55/45 heel/toe ratio. What I wouldn't give to have a good barefoot farrier standing over me while I raps giving me tips and pointers. So, now that I'm trying out this farrier thing I'm wondering if anyone has any tips for holding that foot between your legs without causing yourself bruises? Maybe my technique needs work, or maybe I need some padding, cause darn my legs are sore. I'm getting better with the rasp and knife, though, so thats a good thing. I also did my daughter's mare's front feet yesterday, and she had a HUGE amount of growth, which took forever to rasp down, so I should probably invest in some nippers for her. Hopefully I'll get her hind feet done today too. It was about +2 C yesterday, and much easier to trim compared to the -15 C last time. I can't wait for spring. |
| Member: maggienm |
Posted on Monday, Jan 7, 2008 - 10:28 pm: Hey Michelle, I know what you mean about bruises on your legs. I have bought a farriers apron which really helps.Also, I have started using a technique called, {from the top down)}, this method calls for a lot of rasping on the outside of the hoof. So I bring the leg out in front and rest the hoof on a block while I rasp away. Good for you for taking this on. I try to do 2 feet a week. That way everyone gets done regularly and the hoof never gets too long. |
| Member: juliem |
Posted on Monday, Jan 7, 2008 - 11:40 pm: https://www.hoofjack.com/ Go to this site and order the free DVD. Then if you decide to buy one, shop the internet as prices and shipping vary a bit, but be sure you get the "real deal" as there are immitations out there. I could not trim my six horses without this and after using it, I wouldn't trim even one without it! You will pay for it with the savings of not having to have a farrier as often. |
| Member: 36541 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 8:26 am: Michelle if Mac or your other mare is well behaved, and you are pretty agile, you an try this method - it works for me. For the left front foot, I go down on my right knee using a roofer's knee pad. I rest the hoof on my left thigh, just above the knee, to work on the underside of the hoof. I reverse this for the right hooves. I use the hoofjack for the top work - best investment I made as I was using a mounting block previously. I maintain eight horses, and only have to use the squeeze method for a two yo draft cross, thus saving my ever-aging back! Also, have you perused the site www.ironfreehoof.com ? That was my primary learning tool in 2006 and I check back often with them. The PDF trimming file can be downloaded to a laptop, and I took mine to the crossties for quite a while! Good luck, Stacy |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 8, 2008 - 8:37 am: Michelle,I very seldom hold a foot between my legs. I have a home made hoof stand that is a 6 x 6 post on a 12 x 12 base. Just the left over top of the posts from when we built the barn. It's a little complicated to rasp from the top as I have to have the hoof on a corner, but it works pretty well. For working on the bottem of the foot, I just let the horse rest on the top of it. Sometimes I put my nearest leg in between the horses leg and use my knees to stabilize the foot, but most often I just hold the foot with one hand and work with the other. I am not using nippers though. For one of my horses, I sit on my homemade hoof stand and just rest the foot in my lap. For another horse, I end up kneeling and holding her back feet as she don't like it held up so high. A cheaper and imo, nicer hoof "jack" is at www.well-shod.com. It's the aluminium combo hoof cradle and stand. I like the fact that you don't have to change the top of it like with the original hoof jack. Most farriers who use that one, seem to just keep the cradle on anyhow and when they bring the foot forward rest it on lthe cradle's edge. The guy who checks my trims using the aluminium one and I love how quickly he can go from cradle to post. Still waiting for my hubby to have one made for me other than the one I have, as it's heavy. I did put a picture of my home made wooden one on someones discussion a few weeks back. |
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