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  Discussion on High Dose Vitamin E
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Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 10:40 pm:

Hi Dr.O,
I am curious of your thoughts on feeding a high(er) doses of Vitamin E. I have a 12yr.old Paint/QH in regular, moderate training level dressage work 5-6 days/week. (avg. 45-60 minutes including warm up & cool down). Almost 3 years ago he was showing signs of some relatively minor all over muscle tenderness. he would flinch a bit upon palpation...mostly through neck, over topline and hindquarters. Again this was relatively minor...he would not kick out or DrOp, but there was clearly some discomfort. His saddle was purchased for and fit to him by a very reputable saddle fitter and is reflocked 2x/year.
Two seperate vets suggested a high fat/low carb diet. One of the vet's also suggested a high dose of Vit.E As much as 10,000 IU (ten thousand). I generally put him on 1-2,000 IU in the winter anyhow. But I increased it to the 10,000IU suggested. I live in the Northeast. (Mass.) I put him on this diet almost three years ago and he has been amazing.
He is moving beautifully, is not sore like he was (maybe a little stiff in the back from time to time) and many comment on how flowing and supple he is when he moves.
He eats as much good quality hay as he can clean up and gets a very small amount if Purina Athlete and Purina Equine Adult (3/4 CUP each 2x/day).He also gets a good joint supplement and mineral/salt block. I do not add Selenium.
I would love your thoughts on this subject.
Many Thanks.
IKE
Member:
dove2

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 6:27 am:

IKE,
This is very interesting since I have a young mare who shows signs of back pain and already has a touch of arthritis in one hock. Which joint supplement do you use? Were you using it prior to increasing the vitamin E supplement? I'm just wondering why you believe the vitamin E is the elixir.
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 9:08 am:

Hi Dove2,
From what I know...it is actually the high fat/low carb diet that has probably contributed the most to the lack of muscle soreness. I was curious if the muscle soreness was due to EPSM (Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy). Dr. O actually has some great information of feeding fat in the equine diet on this site, worth looking at. I chose to feed the higher dose of Vit. E as it also supports muscle function (and much more!) and my Vet suggested it. The high fat/low carb diet generally can take up to 3 months to really see an effect, but both my Vet's (who primarily work with hard working performance horses) have seen great results with this diet.
The joint supplement I use is ChonDrOgen EQ. I had first seen it used in some friends horses with great results...they started offering more with their hind ends...seemed more comfortable. I found this as well. I'm always a little leary of how effective oral supplements actually are but I've been quite happy with this one and have used it for almost 3 years. Also ..more comfortable joints..hocks especially will certainly mean less stress on the muscular system.
IKE
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 1:26 pm:

Hello IKE,
Though there are some congenital problems that occur is horses that require such high doses of Vitamin E, there is no work to suggest that it is beneficial in healthy working horses. In fact just the opposite: in one study very high doses of Vitamin E showed no improvement in oxidative stress compared to lower doses and did show evidence of impaired beta-carotene metabolism. Interestingly, using the heart rate during exercise as a measure of stress the control group who received no supplementation did the best (had the lowest heart rate). Our recommendations for dosages are in Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Vitamin E and Horses.
DrO

Equine Vet J Suppl. 2006 Aug;(36):617-21.
Oral vitamin E supplementation on oxidative stress, vitamin and antioxidant status in intensely exercised horses.
Williams CA, Carlucci SA.
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, Cook Campus, Department of Animal Science, 84 Lipman Drive, New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901, USA.

REASONS FOR PERFORMING STUDY: Vitamin E is the most commonly supplemented antioxidant in horses; however, previous research is not conclusive as to the recommended level for exercising horses. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effects of 3 levels of vitamin E supplementation on oxidative stress and vitamin/antioxidant status in intensely exercised horses to determine the optimal level of vitamin E supplementation. METHODS: Twelve unfit Standardbreds were divided into 3 groups, supplemented orally with 0 (CON), 5000 (MOD), or 10,000 (HI) iu/day of DL-alpha-tocopheryl acetate. The 3 x 3 Latin square design consisted of three 4 week supplementation periods with 4 week wash out periods between. After each period, horses underwent a treadmill interval exercise test. Blood samples were collected and heart rate (HR) measured before, during and after exercise. Data were analysed using ANOVA with repeated measures in SAS. RESULTS: The CON group had lower HR throughout the test compared to the MOD and HI groups (P<0.05). There was an increase in plasma retinol (RET), beta-carotene (BC), red blood cell total glutathione and glutathione peroxidase with exercise (P<0.05), but all groups returned to baseline after 24 h. Plasma alpha-tocopherol (TOC) increased from baseline with exercise (P<0.0001) in all groups; treatment differences were observed at 24 h (P<0.05). The HI and CON groups had lower BC compared to the MOD group (P = 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Horses supplemented with vitamin E, at nearly 10-times the 1989 NRC recommended level, did not experience lower oxidative stress compared to control horses. Additionally, lower plasma BC levels observed in the HI group, which may indicate that vitamin E has an inhibitory effect on BC metabolism. POTENTIAL RELEVANCE: Supplementation above control levels is not more beneficial to oxidative stress and antioxidant status in intensely exercising horses; indeed, levels 10 times in excess may be detrimental to BC and should be avoided.
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 13, 2007 - 10:24 pm:

Thanks Dr.O,
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
IKE
Member:
lynneh

Posted on Sunday, Nov 18, 2007 - 8:00 pm:

Hi kriseyc
My quarter horse developed a 'sore' way of moving many years ago. At the time his symptoms were vague similar to yours. They included an inability to maintain a lead on the lung line where he would gradually shorten his stride in back till he was what I called 'rabbiting' or moving both hind legs together. He would suddenly buck and strike out with one hind leg in particular and be generally pissy. He had no trouble maintaining under saddle but in retrospect was not rounding his back or driving from underneath and his attitude was affected. He seemed to be stiff and sore in the back and all large muscles.

The vet could find no reason for these vague lameness symptoms and considered blood work. His Selenium level came back extremely low. As we live in Michigan and everyone here is low, we considered it a long shot but we supplemented him with a high quality selenium and Vit E testing blood levels with each dosage change.

It took several months to get him to an optimal level and symptom free. After several years of quarterly checking blood levels and adjusting dosages I noticed a pattern.... in Spring his levels would raise just a little and he needed less supplement to keep him sound, by fall the natural selenium was depleted and he needed more supplement. But consistently the first sign was that funny way of moving at the canter on the lunge line and a pissy attitude. He ranged from 2-4 mg Selenium per day in his feed to maintain blood levels.

Selenium and Vitamin E can both be dangerous in high doses without monitoring blood levels. I wouldn't recommend anyone dose their horse with 4 mg of Selenium without blood testing and Vet support but for us it worked.

My personal theory is that our Michigan bred horses have adapted to the lower levels but my Texas bred horse was way too sensitive to the lower levels. I believe the feeds you mention do carry a certain amount of Se, it might be worth a blood test if you haven't already.

Just an idea, you're symptoms sounded so similar I had to share my story.
Good luck, glad he's doing better on your current plan.
Lynne
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Sunday, Nov 18, 2007 - 9:06 pm:

Hi Lynne,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think it would be prudent of me to check his blood levels in general. I'm aware of the dangers of high selenium and have therefore never supplemented it as it is in some of his small grain rations already and in his forage as well. I figured if there was more Vit. E than he needed he would just pass it along in his urine/manure...and again...it was advice given to me by one of his Vet's...but I decided to use this website to check with Dr.O just in case as it never hurts to have as much info. as possible.
I'm glad you were able to figure out the correct levels with your horse(s) and can adjust seasonally.
Thanks again Lynne.
IKE
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 19, 2007 - 7:15 am:

Le's clean this up a little bit. Selenium, a necessary nutrient, is toxic in doses not that much higher than the required amounts so supplementation always need to be done carefully as Lynn point out above. On the other hand vitamin E, unlike the other oil soluble vitamins, is not very toxic when greatly overdosed but there are some indications that high doses are not helpful and maybe even harmful and certainly not without expense. For more on all of this see both the Overview and the specific pertinent articles in the nutrition section.
DrO
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