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Discussion on What is a "Palmer Angle"
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 1:13 pm:
In dealing with Levi's foot problem, they keep referring to the palmer angle. What does this mean, and what is a "normal" palmer angle. Also can it change with trimming/shodding?
thanks
Also once the coffin bone has rotated downward, will it ever go back with proper trimming or is surgery the only option?
thanks
sue
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 2:33 pm:
Hi, Susan. Here are a couple of sites that might be good. The first is in the farrier section of horseadvice.com.
https://www.horseshoes.com/anatomy/anatomy.htm
https://www.mascalcia.net/articoli/a2003_55.htm
https://www.horseshoes.com/fhelpf/bb1/messages/1377.htm
You might find more info under palmar rather than palmer.
Good luck!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 3:06 pm:
Hello Susan,
I have not used the term but I believe they are talking about the angle the solar (palmar) edge of the coffin bone makes with the ground in a lateral radiograph of the foot. I have not seen any studies and Dr Redden says there is variation in the normal horse but most of those I see in normal horses with a good trim have the front tip slightly lower than the rear making a small angle of about 3 to 4 degrees with the ground. As the coffin bone rotates from founder this angles gets larger. Yes trimming can definately effect it and it is possible to get some correction without a DDF tenotomy, for more see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 3:10 pm:
Those are great links Ellie. I was just reading a discussion on this in the www.horseshoes.com forum and it was stated that measuring the Palmar angles are a more accurate way of determining degree of rotation. It was also stated that a normal angle can be anywhere from 1 to 4 degrees in a normal foot.
Sue do you know the degree of rotation that they are talking about based on the palmar angle measurements?
I am sure that this angle can change somewhat with trimming and shoeing but support needs to applied in the right places. It takes about a year for the whole foot to grow out and if the laminitis or founder can be stopped and the foot supported properly there should be no reason why his feet can't return to normal angles.
Hope this helps,
Susan B.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 3:30 pm:
I believe from what I am reading, I had them send me copy of the x-rays, that the angle is either 11 or 14 Yikes, that can't be good. He is presently in a rocker type shoe with some nubs on the heel to raise the heel. I am trying to find a farrier locally that can work with me rather than travelling the 2 hours in yucky winter weather here in the midwest. I have tried to ask this farrier who is working with Levi, but he is always in a hurry to get the next horse in, so he does not take as much time as I wish he would to explain what we are trying to achieve. I will check out the web sites thanks soo much!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2005 - 6:15 pm:
This suggests a rotation of 7 to 10 degees. The reason this method is used is that chronically foundered horses grow distorted toe horn making the traditional calculation, the angle of the front of the coffing makes with the wall of the toe difficult.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 6:56 pm:
Dr. O, I have had Levi on a product called Master's Hoof Blend or HT 20. It is a mix of biotin, methionine/ structural sulfur and cystine?, lysine. It is about $33.00 for 3.75 lbs. feeding 1 oz day. When I was at our Feed and supply store, they have a product called Biotin 100, i believe 100 mg/lb. It is $25.00 for 50 lbs. Would this be a sufficient supplement to help in Levi's hoof quality, or does he need all the other stuff besides the biotin. Also I have seen other products that claim to help in founder cases. Is there any supplement that you would suggest other than the biotin to help get my boy back in shape? His other hooves are in excellent shape, no chipping, just shallow soles on fr. right foot also. What promotes sole growth?
sorry to be so needy, someday I hope this does not consume my thoughts!
thanks
susan
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 9:48 pm:
Susan see the Nutritional subtopic of Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Care of the Hoof: an Overview for our recommendations on improving sole quality.
DrO
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 11:04 am:
Hi Susan-
I'm curious as to why a horse with rotation has raised heels, which increase the angle and pressure on the already compromised sole? I would think you would want to remove the shoes, get the angles as close to normal as possible (i.e. heels very short), and use styrofoam or some less invasive material to provide comfort for the horse. I can't imagine that pounding nails into a sore, diseased foot is a good thing.
Proper nutrition and movement are the keys to hoof health. Read Dr. O's article. I also recommend Jaime Jackson's book Founder: Prevention and Cure, available on this web site https://home.alltel.net/star/page4.html
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 12:18 pm:
Thanks so much for your input. I am having a hard time right now looking at the way levi's feet are starting to grow. They really did not have a dished appearance ever before, but now they seem to have a dished look. He was never really sore on normal walking around. Only when we trotted in tight circles. Initially I had a new "farrier" trim him really short, which caused the bout of laminitis. I was unfortunately gone, and he was at the trainer. She had a vet come out who said it was not laminitis. Chunks of his hoof were falling off. This new farrier is more concerned with talking to his wife and kids when I am there, and his buddies than explain to me what we are trying to accomplish. However, according to everyone in the area, this veterinarian he works with is the "leg man" for lameness. I am so worried that we will be getting worse, because I really don't know what he should be doing. I will check out the book. I wish I could scan the radiographs onto here so I could get some other advice?
any advice or at least questions I should be asking would be appreciated.
thanks
sue
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 12:57 pm:
How do you post pictures from a scanner or a floppy disk onto a post?
thanks I have looked in the help place, but found nothing. Very computer illiterate here.
suz
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 1:17 pm:
Hi Susan-
Dr O can probably clarify this process, but basically you click on Upload Attachment, enter a name for your picture, then click Browse to find it on your computer. Here I've uploaded a picture of a healthy hoof.
Sometimes we kill our horses with kindness -- the more we treat them the worse they get. Pulling shoes, doing a better trim, and turning this horse out might be the simplest and most effective solution here.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 3:09 pm:
I am trying to post a copy of the x-ray but it says that the image is too big it must be smaller than 64 somethin or others. How can I get the image to post? It is just a black and white copy of the x-ray. Any ideas?
suz
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 8:09 am:
Redmare, the heels are raised to remove the pull of the deep digital flexor which causes further rotation. This allows time for healing and then the foot can be remodeled and the heel slowly lowered for pictures of this process see Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
Susan you will have to use a imaging program to reduce the size of the file (not neccesarily the physical size of the image itself). Do you have a paint or photo software program?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 9:47 am:
Dr. O, yes I do, I will try to experiment. I was surprised that I was able to make a photo copy of the x-ray.
I noticed yesterday that Levi seems to be flipping out his foot again. I may even be detecting a little warmth around the coronary band of both front feet. But I could be overly sensitive, I am having a friend stop by today to check it out.
We have snow here that is packing in his front feet shoes. I chop it out several times a day, but now I am wondering if the snow balls are causing further damage? I am thinking of putting on his big mac boots on. Would that be an ok Idea to keep the snow out, or am I worrying about things too much as usual?
thanks
sue
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 10:55 am:
Susan,
Here is a link to a freeware photo view/editing software(IrFan view) I've used for years, strange name but a good program.
https://www.tucows.com/preview/194967.html
When you scan or save a photo for posting or email use the *.jpg format. You get larger photos with the smallest file size.
Actully I use *.jpg(s) for everything and most digital cameras save in that format by default now. I can print 8x10s from *.jpg(s) that only a pro could pick out.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 7:52 pm:
Dr. O, I feel a slight warmth in both of Levi's front feet. He is not due for a trimming for another 3 weeks. Would that snow packing in his feet have caused a problem. He is racing around the yard like a crazy horse. Playing and does not seem to be limping, or head bobbing. What would this mean? I did put the big macs on him today,so he good grip for running around. I wish the farrier and the vet were closer.
Thanks Alden, I went there but there were several choices, so I don't know which to download. thanks
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 8:35 pm:
Sue,
I think it is as simple as picking your Operating System and then downloading the 3.95 Version.
It is quite likely the warmth in Levi's feet are from running and playing around. That means he is alive girl. I know it is a nuisance, but try and keep his feet picked out everyday.
Hope this helps,
Susan B.
ps. I go by the many handles of Sue, Suze and Susan too  .
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New Member:
Sandij
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Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 12:43 am:
Redmare, I have to agree with you concerning Susans Levi.>I am sure that this angle can change somewhat with trimming and shoeing but support needs to applied in the right places. It takes about a year for the whole foot to grow out and if the laminitis or founder can be stopped and the foot supported properly there should be no reason why his feet can't return to normal angles.
Hope this helps,
Susan B.<
And also about the raising of the heels. I have a foundered mare myself and have been doing extentive research for the past 6 weeks. Seems Vets and Farriers were taught that raising the heels is the thing to do but further, and more recent research has shown this to be incorrect in most cases. My mare is proof of this. She foundered 2 1/2 months ago and I have had 3 different farriers out here treating her. The first one trimmed her as he does every other horse, knew nothing about trimming for founder. The second one 1 week later, trimmed toe off but also thinned her sole after been asked not to touch it, afterall she has rotated 7 degrees, and did not trim her heels. Have a second set of x-rays 5 weeks later and she had rotated further. Called another farrier, he put her in 2 degree wedged eggbars and he also did not trim her heels. The horse has been on
bute since day one, she has not had relief of pain. After all my research I decided to get me someone who knew something about a horses foot and called a Barefoot trimmer. My mare is no longer in pain, she can actually walk like a normal horse should and on her way to recovery. The man trimmed her the way she should be trimmed, lowered those heels. Trimmed her so the weight is on the back half of the hoof, instead of the front (toes), made all the difference.
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 10:22 am:
Lynne, I'm so glad to hear that that approach was successful for your mare. This has been my experience also. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have yet to see a foundered horse recover the "traditional" way; all were put down or, in desperation, taken barefoot and recovered. What I like about JJ's book is its holistic approach, uncovering and removing the cause of disease rather than just treating symptoms.
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 10:26 am:
Thanks to all of you for helping me through this. I had the boots on all day yesterday, took them off at nite in his stall. This morning his feet are cool all over. Hope that means it was just an isolated incident. I am still trying to figure out how to post the x-ray. I am a good dog trainer, but a horrible 'puter user!
Suz
P.S. me too sueb, I have many versions of Susan. 'cept my momma, she is a definately a "Susan" especially when she is mad. Even though I am old now!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 4:38 pm:
Susan, the snowballs could be putting extra pressure on the sole and also destabalizing the foots ability to plant securely both harmful to a founder. It is a frequently discussed problem and by running a search you will find several different solutions discussed. Lynne it is incorrect to say research has shown raised heels to be bad for founder: it depends on the particulars of the founder, particularly if active rotation is going on. The goal is to get the horse to his normal angle but attending talks by the most experienced people in founder just months ago: there is a place for raised heels in some cases of founder.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 11:35 am:
Hi, I am going to try to upload the x-ray of levi's foot, thanks to linda for helping I hope I can get this right. The vet said he is trying to make the bottom of his coffin bone parallell with the shoe, not the ground. I am just wondering if this the the right approach. I will admit he has not been lame, seems happy, but he was not really terribly lame before I took him to the vet, just on small circles. We have another appointment on Feb 8th, so any advice, or questions I should be asking? 
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2005 - 5:43 pm:
Here I hope is a copy of Levi's x-ray for anyones opinion. Only good opinions, I don't think I can take any bad news 
thanks lisa, hope it posts
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 7:14 am:
Susan the first radiograph is distorted: it appears someone has reduced the height without a corresponding reduction in width. I then found your better radiograph posted under someone elses discussion so I moved it to your discussion.
Since the shoe is not flat it is hard to evaluate your farriers statement. He has to pick a tangental line on the curve of the shoe to line up the bottom of the coffin with. If he picks it somewhere that allows the coffin angle to be about normal with the ground and works toward that goal slowly he would be doing about right. If the horse were standing square when the photo above was taken I don't care much for it as the coffin joint is in a bit of a flexed position, (compare with Lisa's recently posted foot). Is this much flexion required to keep the horse comfortable? Is this temporary as he works the heel down?
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 12:15 pm:
Thanks Dr. O, these will be questions that I will have to ask. The new farrier I had come to my place, looked at the x-rays, and levis foot and said he felt it was something he could work with, but he disagreed with how they were working on it. He is going to meet me up at the next appointment to talk to the farrier, and hopefully the vet. He said he wanted to get his heel to grow out, and did not understand why they cut his heel. I am not sure what they did the first time. If I can get linda's help, I will try to post a copy of the foot before any corrective shoeing for your opinion. Since I am completely oblivious to what should be done, and am only going on referrals, and what ever knowledge I can gain from everywhere, i am in the dark. The only thing that I have noticed is that before the corrective shoeing, levi had a bump on his coronary band, but otherwise normal looking outer hoof wall, but now his feet are looking a bit dished and like he is getting founder rings. Is this from the way the guy has him angled or a result of the original episode growing out?
Truthfully, this new farrier guy is the first one who gave me any confidence that he could get him out of these shoes, and possible barefoot again. The guy who put the shoes on said he will have to be in them forever. At the rate he charges it probably would be good for his mortage payment if I have to keep him in these shoes forever. I am just worried that 6 months from now I will be wishing I had done something different. So I appreciate any guidance you can give me.
thanks
sue
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Member:
Lisapony
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2005 - 11:38 pm:
Susan,
You need to make sure the Vet and the farrier talk! And, get new xrays if those are more the 30 days old. Most farriers I have discussed this with all say "lower the heals" Every case is different but I would want to know the reason he said this. If he things NEVER lower the heals I would question this. But, if he says in this case I would not because....
In my understanding, the reason the heal would be cut would be to help level P3 to a better angle. (this is just my simple explaination) You lower the heal and take back on the toe. You use xrays to see how much to do each time, and to determine the breakover (the point righ behind the tip of P3) This helps keep pressure off. My horse also has a bit of a raise on the heal on his shoe and a frog pad to help put pressure correctly on the frog. (which also keeps the snow out) I have xrays taken every shoeing which is every 5 weeks. I want to see the progress and to aid the farrier. I have used this site and www.Horseshoes.com many times to help me make decisions.
I am not found of the theory NO SHOES EVER...I would be careful if that is farrier's only answer.
Where are you located?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2005 - 6:19 am:
You can see the cause of the bump on the radiograph: the over-flexed coffin joint pushes forward. If the horse is now developing a dish they are allowing too much toe to develop in front. If they are cutting the heels the only thing I can see is they do it to fit the shoes rocker in back.
I don't see anything in the history or radiograph to suggest the horse must stay in these shoes but make changes fairly slow. Preventing future episodes of founder is dependent on correcting the past cause and avoiding the development of new causes of founder. Remember that after a episodes horses are predisposed so take extra care. Concerning specifics on shoeing there are two scenerios you want to avoid:
1) Thinning the sole.
2) Lowering the heels off of these rockers more than 2 degrees at a time.
DrO
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2005 - 4:05 pm:
thanks Dr. O and Lisa. Lisa I live in N.W. Iowa. From referrals, i have had to go to south dakota, 2 1/2 hours away to see the vet who is supposed to be the "lame expert". He has a farrier there that he works with. I am having a farrier from here meeting us up there to hopefully make it easier to follow up for me.
Dr. O, just a few questions, the over-flexed coffin joint, was this possibly caused by the "idiot" farrier who trimmed him really short back in august when this all happened?
Also his soles are really thin to begin with, so I am giving him supplements, also they seem to feel he did gain some sole on this last radiograph.
I feel stupid asking this question, but, does lowering the heels, mean letting them grow out so there is more heel back there? or cutting it so it is closer to the ground? also, what does the rocker accomplish? sorry for the questions , i must understand the written word better so i appreciate your patience
sue
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 6:58 am:
Hi Susan-
There are no "idiots" here. It's very common (and very unprofessional) for farriers to berate the work of previous farriers. When I do hoof trimming, I'm always careful to say that my way may be different from what the owner has seen before and that they might see positive changes. I never blame a farrier for problems, which are more often than not caused by something else (arthritis, move from pasture to stall, etc.).
Low heels means different things to different people. In my experience there is an optimal length for heels, which is extremely short. Horses trimmed this way are healthy and sound; however, if a horse has been in shoes for a long time with a farrier who favors long heels, I can't just lop them off in one session, they have to be gradually brought down to the correct length. Also, some people mistakenly call underrun heels "low" when in fact they are quite long, just growing in the wrong direction. Totally confused now? 
Frankly, that radiograph is scary. The bone alignment is being caused by the current shoeing. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's time for you to educate yourself on what a normal foot is suppoed to look like. Don't rely on the advice of a farrier who stands to profit from you.
I just did a web search for a radiograph of a healthy foot, but unfortuately couldn't find one! In any case, here is a web site with many photos of hooves both healthy and unhealthy. www.barefoothorse.com
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 9:03 am:
Redmare, thanks for responding. The reason I personally referred to this guy as an "idiot" is because he nailed a shoe on levi's foot 4 times, removing it to say it did not fit. Then he called my horse a "son of a b", DrOpped his feet to the ground, after holding them up in the air. He took 2 hours to shoe my first horse, and was angry at him for not standing still. Some people call themselves farriers, just because they own clippers. the other 2 farriers I am now working with have not commented on the previous farriers work at all. That is why I am asking Dr. O, if the way he cut his feet so dramatically short all at once could have caused this.
Also this current farrier has twice sedated my horse to work on him, would this cause his stance to be not very solid for gauging how to shoe?
I too think it looks like he is quite angled for my unprofessional opinion. Could this be a confirmation issue also?
thanks
sue
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Member:
Redmare
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2005 - 10:42 am:
Sue-
Oh my! OK, then "idiot" might be a good choice of words after all .
It's true that there is no regulation of farriers/trimmers in the U.S. Anyone can do it. Some have good knowledge and feel, while others certainly don't.
You don't have to be a professional to see that the angle is bad. The horse is standing on his toe, similar to what a human would do in ballet shoes. Here is a link to a page about hoof xrays with a picture of a seemingly healthy hoof. This was very hard to find -- I guess people only radiograph their horses when they are lame! https://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/xrays-full.htm
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 9:41 am:
Susan I cannot know who did this and cannot even definitively evaluate the radiograph because I cannot tell if this is how the horse always stands. The angle we see above is a result of the combination of the shoeing job and how the horse is standing on the rocker. Perhaps this shot is not representive? Since I am not a fan of such rocker shoes perhaps this question should be addressed to those who put them on. The idea behind rockers and founder (according to Rick Redden) is that the horse can pick a comfortable angle and at that angle the horse does best. Also is the idea of a easier breakover. I think the lack of stability puts extra stress on the tissues.
I do think returning the foot to a more ap balanced position will correct this flexed coffin joint conformation. How this is accomplished depends on whether the above is represenitive of how the horse normally stands, the condition of the foot, particularly the condition of the sole, for more see - Care for Horses » Hoof Care » Trimming and Preparing the Feet for Shoes
- Equine Diseases » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses
DrO
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 10:18 am:
Hello Sue,
I just came back from 3 1/2 days of seminars and lectures at the 2nd annual Hoof Care Summit. One of the key things that speakers (vets and farriers) seemed to agree on was that in the case of a rotated coffin bone, the goal is to provide support and cushioning to the BACK of the foot to engage the heels and the soft tissues in the back (to help in restoring blood flow to the foot) while at the same time relieveing pressure on the sole in the areas where the tip of the coffin bone has descended.....this seems to be the underlying principle and take home message from these discussions, independent of what method was used....from your X-ray it looks that although the rocker shoe allows the horse to find the most comfortable position by itself to relieve stress on the tendon (DDFT), this method did not account for taking the load of the tip of the coffin bone or provide an opportunity to engage the heels....I would consider looking for a level platform where the hoof meets the shoe to allow for this......the farrier will probably also then make sure that the position where the hoof leaves the ground when the foot lifts off will be slightly in front of this tip.
Look here for some methods that are out there and the theory behind it.....some of these use the same principle as this shoe except that the hoof lies flat on the shoe. This allows the horse to find the most comfortable position to relieve pain in the foot while providing a stable platform for support.
https://www.equipodiatry.com/1028.html
https://www.horseshoes.com/advice/yehuda/frandlmt.htm
This is a general link to some good information on the principles of Hoof balance and how the structues of the hoof should work...never mind the fact that this carries the label "natural balance"...just absorb the principles behind it and forget about the "sales label":
https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/natbalance/nbguidelines.html
https://www.naturalhorse.com/archive/volume5/Issue4/article_15.php
https://www.mascalcia.net/articoli/a2002_50.htm
Hope this helps!
Chrstine
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 11:12 am:
Thanks Dr. O and Christine. I believe the farrier that put on the rocker was also at this conference. My concern with this shoe is that he never walks on our frozen ground normal looking. He seems to be tossing out that foot now. When I put his big mac boots on, when the snow was packing so bad, he seemed sooooo happy. Like the level landing of the boots, or the extra padding, made him feel normal. He would tuck his butt,and run around the pasture. I also am noticing that the coronary band seems to be flattening out on one side, and still has a bit of a bump on the other. Would this possibly indicate that the coffin bone angle is changing?
the new farrier I am checking out, wants to get him in a flat shoe, slowly lowering the heel, by using some pads I think?
Also no matter how much I learn, how do you tell the vet/farrier that this is what I think they can do. Or should I just find a farrier that will do as you suggest.
My gut tells me we are on the wrong path with this approach, just because levi's hoof shape is changing, with these shoes on. He also seems to be developing a weird gait. When I asked him to trot yesterday, he flipped out that foot and seemed to be not happy, not really a head bobbing limp, but not a solid gate. Did not know if it was the rocker shoe, frozen ground, or what.
I know we will get to the bottom of this. I just don't know how to question the veterinarian who everyone says is the man to go to, since this was his suggestion, the rocker shoe.
Unfortunately this new farrier comes over from Nebraska every 3 weeks, which would put levi on a 6 week schedule, or would it be helpful for him to see him every 3 weeks? A gal who is a respected horse woman in the area arranged for him to come here, because we do not have educated farriers in our area.
I will read up on all your suggestions. thanks so much for all of the help from everyone. I hope I can make some sense of everything, and find the way to get my boy back on track. If he wasn't so darn cute, silly and fun to hang out with, maybe I would not be trying so hard 
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Member:
Gingin
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 12:37 pm:
Hello Sue,
I think the key thing here is that you, as the horse owner, have to be comfortable with the approach that is taken by the farrier/vet to help your horse and be able to live with the consequences..... Please be aware of the fact that veterinarians often have very little clue (sorry Dr. O, no offense intended! :-)) about hoof care and farriery.....some vets are specialists in this and work with excellent farriers, some just aren't....so just because the vet says this is the thing to do, may not mean that it is the right thing! Farriery, as I am starting to appreciate very much, is indeed much more an art and solid experience than confirmed science!
If I were in your shoes, I would try to find a farrier that is able to explain to me what he/she will do, someone that understands X-rays and is also willing to make adjustments to the approach s/he is taking to get the horse as comfortable as possible in a short time. The goal of the farrier care in laminitis, after all, is to get the horse as comfortable as possible as fast as possible, stop the rotation of the coffin bone, and allow the horse to move around to help heal the foot. You might also want to get him to the minimum amount of pain killer, if he is on any, to avoid that he is goofing off, running around too much and creating extra damamge to the foot....a little bit of pain may not be bad :-)
I would get him out of these shoes ASAP since you, and your horse, are cleary not comfortable with them. The approach of the other farrier may be more conservative and better for your horse. You might want to have this farrier come every 3 weeks initially to see what is going on with your horse's foot and make adjustments if needed..after all, elevating the heel and getting the coffin bone to stabilize may involve some trial and error, since there isn't THE ONE technique that works with every foot, plus you also have to deal with hard frozen and possibly uneven, spiky ground that may need some extra cushion in the foot (your observation with the hoof boots already tell you that!). You may also want to get another set of X-rays after the new farrier has found an approach that makes your horse comfortable, to check the alignemnt of the coffin bone, the breakover and how much sole thickness in under the tip of the coffin bone.
Your horse's foot will change shape quite a bit during the healing process. You will see a lot of chage in the toe are of the hoof that may need to be addressed in intervals shorter than 6 weeks....your farrier will let you know!
Lastly, I would not tell a new farrier "what to do" but rather let him know that you are not comfortable with the current approach and would like him tell you what he will do and why and what to expect, and most importantly, how to recognize when something is not going in the right direction...after all, you see your horse every day and know him best while the farrier sees a LOT of different horses and only has the chance to evaluate a specific case every once in a while and not consistently. The farrier, like a good doctor, should listen to your observations and take them into consideration when deciding what tools to use to attack this laminitis problem....You may also want to ask specifically about what to do to help protect the foot on hard, uneven ground....
Once you find such an individual that is willing to work with you and explain and is willing to make changes if one approach does not work, you will probably be more comfortable and also better informed about whether your horse's treatment is going well.....
It will also make you more comfortable if you read a LOT about laminitis and the different approaches that are out there to be able to find out the commonalities (i.e. the fundamental principles) and how "mainstream (i.e. has been around long enough to have merit)" versus "out-there" a recommended approach is....this will give you an additional level of comfort and help communicate with them using their "language"....
However, as I said earlier, I'd NOT find a farrier that agrees to doing what you want or tell one what to do. However, there is nothing wrong with asking lots of questions and expecting answers, explanation and good communication...
Hope this helps ....
Please keep me posted on this and how your horse's treatment is coming along. GOOD LUCK to you!!!!!
Christine
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Quatro
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2005 - 7:21 pm:
thanks again, Levi has not been on any pain medicine since september. does not seem to be in any pain. today we did a trailer training session, did some walking around the farm, and then tied him to the trailer for a while to learn patience. After our session was over Mr. Antsy Pantsy took off at 90 miles an hour to catch up with his buddies in the grove. He only shows lameness on tight circles! He was pawing the ground with his bad foot, because of impatience so it must not hurt much.
thanks for responding, I feel better just having an ear to bend.
suz
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