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Discussion on Pre-purchase exam: Do you think xrays are helpful if indicated?
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Member:
Choney
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 8:38 am:
Is the cost justified for pre-purchase xrays, or would a vet be able to get a decent idea just by physical exam alone? I read the article here, but still can't decide... 
Anyone have a good or bad experience to share?
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 9:55 am:
Its good to have a baseline of sorts. And it might come up if you ever plan to sell.
jojo
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 10:10 am:
I agree with Jojo, I would have loved to have a baseline for my horse. If the horse is positive in the flexions in the prepurchase, xrays are warranted, in my opinion. While you're at it, you may as well have the hoofs xrayed as well.
I did not and now have a horse with DJD.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 3:58 pm:
I wouldn't buy a horse without a set of xrays done by a well recommended vet. Several years ago, when I bought my first horse, I had him vetted and xrayed... Unfortunately, the xrays were very poor quality but the vet never told me and they were never re-taken. Two years later, when my horse started having problems, I obtained the xrays and they were shown to another local vet as well as Michigan State U. Both said that the xrays were so bad, that no decisions should have been made regarding the horse's purchase based on them. Both also said that my horse's problems would have shown up on quality xrays at the time of pre-purchase. And they were no help in establishing a baseline. My horse, who was quite young, had to be retired.
Yes! Get good, clear, well done xrays! (Plus, didn't I read here that flexion tests were not always a reliable indication of soundness?)
Good luck,
Fran
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 5:12 pm:
Well, I hate to be the contrarian here but let me give another point of view. Many sound horses have been passed over because of a set of radiographs. It is a well established fact that radiographic lesions do not correlate well with lameness nor are they highly predictive of future problems. I really feel Fran was given misleading information and am surprised that it came from a university: there is just no way looking at signs of DJD on a radiograph, no matter how advanced, that they could predict what that joint looked like 2 years earlier. Joints can go from perfectly clean to perfectly lousy in that much time. Though base line information can be useful in very select cases and when you consider resale it may hinge on a clean set of radiographs, the amount of information they give as a predictor of future soundness in a horse is limited. I have seen several horses turned down for prepurchase that continued to beat the ex-buyer for years in competition.
DrO
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Member:
Suzeb
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Posted on Friday, Jan 14, 2005 - 6:07 pm:
Hello Cher,
I guess a question to ask yourself would be:
What do you intend on using this horse for?
Is the asking price a lot of money?
There are so many variables on what makes a horse sound and keeping him/her sound.
I agree with Dr.O, clean or dirty X-Rays now cannot predict the future soundness of this horse.
Hope this helps,
Susan B.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2005 - 7:16 pm:
Dr. O,
I think you mis-read my post (or perhaps I was not clear)...what I meant to say was that in jy case, the pre-purchase xrays were poorly taken i.e. so fuzzy that they couldn't be read. The vet who took them apparently didn't care and passed off the horse as having clean joints when in fact, you could barely tell what joint they were a picture of, never mind tell if the joints were clean or not. My point to Cher was that if she does have xrays taken, she needs to ensure that the quality of the xray is good.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 10:03 am:
I have had x-rays save me in cases where the horse had old and one had a relatively new fracture. Both of these horses were being sold as sound and the first one my vet said had two 'nasty' fractures. I know the first one was sold to someone else as sound...they did not x-ray. The original owner was selling this mare, there was no way he didn't know about the fractures. He looked me right in the eye and said she had never had any lameness issues.
But, the last horse I just bought, I did not x-ray. He is 6 years old and not expensive. He is most importantly a pasture buddy for Ravello. If he stays sound in work, great....if not, I wont be too disappointed. He is a big handsome horse with a kind disposition and gets along great with Ravello. He needs some groceries but so far I am thrilled with him.
Oh, I just remembered, x-rays could have saved me in another case. The mare ended up having to be put down because she was not even comfortable as a pasture horse. She was also an inexpensive horse, but I hated being stuck with someone else's dirty work of putting the mare down. I was told this horse was completely sound...impossible....w/o lots of drugs.
I probably didn't help....but thought you might like to hear my experiences. I will add that most of these horses, except the last, were/are OTT, which may increase the percentage of injuries found in them.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 10:23 am:
Sorry to hijack...but....
BARBARA! I'm so happy...and I'm sure you are thrilled...that you have found a horse to ease Ravello's soul...what a blessing you are to your horses!!!!
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 11:18 am:
Aileen,
Thanks so much for remembering. I was about to have a breakdown watching Ravello moping and behaving badly everyday. he shredded the first pasturemate we tried. We are SO happy to have found this big, sweet boy. We had no idea if they would get along until we brought 'Roman' home. 'Roman' is a classy cat and won 80k on the track.
Here is the webpage I made for Bub...it made me feel better at the time but I really can't look at it now. https://gifthillfarm.com/id6.html
here they are together....Rav on the left.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 11:37 am:
Oh Barbara, I have tears in my eyes....what a fabulous tribute to a fabulous boy!
Roman (who is quite the looker as well - looks like he has a very kind eye) and Rav look as though they will be just fine.
Peace to you my friend.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2005 - 12:24 pm:
Oh My God, Barbara...soo happy for you and Rav(as well as Roman). Looks like God sent you another blessing! And, I, like Aileen found your page on "Bub" absolutely unbelieveable!
Nancy
P.S. On the matter of xrays, they are a great tool to "justify" your own opinion about whether to purchase or not to purchase! Pretty much what DrO said.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 5:22 am:
I think the key thing is having a vet who takes account of your intended use for the horse and the proposed sale price and advises accordingly.
I just sold a horse I had for 2 years. When I bought her I was buying from a dealer and she was mildly dodgy on the flexion tests so I had 2 limbs x-rayed on the vet's advice - she vetted sound and I bought her.
She was vetted by the same man for the recent sale and he advised the purchasers he did not think X-rays were needed as the flexion tests were the same and she had not had any lameness while with me. They had already said to him they just wanted a basic soundness exam and confirmation of her age as she didn't have a passport.
So if you trust your vet and his expertise, take his advice!
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Lisao
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2005 - 8:24 am:
This is an old thread, but I have been out of town and couldn't put my two cents worth in sooner. Boy, have I been bitten by the radiograph issue - but from the seller side. I have a coming 4 yr old HOL gelding that was found to have OCD on prepurchase x-rays, but flexed sound and has never had any soundness issues in his life. I reduced his price to a ridiculously low amount, told prospective buyers about the radiographic findings, and simply could not sell him. There was an article recently posted in another bb by a renowned French breeder who points out the many world class warm blood stallions who had OCD and went on to have incredible competition and breeding careers. Yes, that begs the question - is OCD heritable? But that is not my point. My point is that I have a really nice horse that I simply cannot sell. I have since decided that I will keep him as my own riding horse because it is not worth the hassle of having vet after vet advise their clients to pass on him and look for a horse with clean radiographs. He is also a sweety and so nice to ride! Oh well...someone could have had a really nice Holsteiner for a really nice price, but this is what the market is coming to now.
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 1:00 pm:
Hi Dr. O.,
What are your thoughts on purchasing a coming five year old warmblood horse with pretty pronounced juvenile bone spavin and an OCD lesion in one hock? According to the pre-purchase exam, the horse would not let the vet hold up either of his hind limbs for more than thirty seconds for the upper limb flexion, but did not trot off with any gait abnormality. They say the horse has been in work for nine months and is sound. However, I know from my own personal experience that OCD can cause problems past age four (my horse had his surgery after he turned five), and we just surgically fused his hock at age eleven, but it started bothering him at age six at least. And we do now know if there is OCD anywhere else in this horse as the hocks were the only joints radiographed. Is it possible for a horse to have juvenile spavin and have it never cause lameness?
Thanks,
Mary
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 3:44 pm:
...new friend for Caymann, Mary? Would love to hear some more details!
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 4:15 pm:
Hi Fran,
HA! Caymann would never let me get another horse-good grief. There is only one Master. I can't afford another horse as long as I have him. I do actually have another horse, Caymann's best friend General. And he is making fabulous progress following his surgery. The surgeon will look at him in another week or so and might clear us for light riding. We'll see.
However, I did have the pre-purchase record and radiographs sent to my vet for the aforementioned horse. He is a full brother to Caymann. Now I know why. He has some of the exact same problems Caymann did, and the breeder was a little offended when I stated in no uncertain terms that I am not going to purchase a five year old horse with OCD and juvenile bone spavin no matter if he is sound now or not. I just wanted to hear Dr. O's opinion. My vet gave it the big thumbs down. But we may be a bit prejudiced due to Caymann's experience. I know there are no guarantees with horse with clean radiographs, but I sure do think you increase the risk purchasing a horse with developmental orthopaedic disease. No horse should have to endure what Caymann has the past seven years.
How are things with you and the Queen?
Mary
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 23, 2007 - 5:04 pm:
Oh! I get it Mary. Frankly, I was wondering what the heck you were thinking, considering all of Caymann's troubles over the years.
The Queen is good. Will fill you in at another time as I have to run, but we continue to make progress (or I should say I continue to make progress!!)
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 8:33 am:
Just my 2 cents on this one. When I had the pre-purchase done on my girl Rose, she came up grade 1 and then grade 2 (the second flexion) on the tests in both her front. The vet at that point was at that point (proceed with extreme caution). I went ahead and ordered the x rays. Since this was my first horse purchase the vet was very helpful, explaining how he rated the purchase and that many folks would have stopped at the flexion tests. The x rays showed mild DJD, but "not as bad as he thought it would have shown" . Knowing that reading DJD in xrays is a difficult thing anyway I decided to purchase her. She is such a sweet girl with lovely gaits, I couldn't pass her by simply due to something that is manageable. If she needs to retire early that's fine, I'll take care of her, she deserves it, she had a bit of a hard life and needs someone to love her.
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 9:27 am:
Hi Adria,
I purchased a four year old warmblood seven years ago. He had OCD at the time of purchase but the vet missed it on the radiograph. Less than one year after purchasing him, he had to have surgery in both hocks and stifles. He then had to have more time off due to a near fatal bout with the flu. I had just gotten him going again when he started having trouble with his right hind (at age six-seven). He then had another OCD/developmental chip removed from his hind fetlock and after struggling with what was most likely a juvenile bone spavin for four years, finally had to have his hock surgically fused at age eleven. I have spent more time not riding him than riding him. It goes without saying that I love him and have taken care of him. However, this is not exactly what I had in mind when I purchased him, and this has not been fun for him either. I purchased a horse that I was planning to ride.
I would NEVER purchase another young horse with OCD/Developmental Orthopaedic Disease. I know that most horses have some issue and that many are manageable. However, when purchasing a young horse, I think that the potential for heartbreak (for you and the horse) goes way up if you get involved with one that already his this problem.
My horse has lovely gaits too, when he is sound
I think that's wonderful that you were willing to give this horse a home, and it sounds like you are OK with early retirement if necessary.
Mary
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 9:28 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
I don't know if my original post has gotten lost in the shuffle but would love to hear your thoughts on it.
Mary
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Member:
adriaa
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 11:06 am:
Mary,
I've only owned her for 2 months now. She was put on Cosequin and seems to be doing fine as far as the DJD is concerned. However she is a delicate flower, about a week and a half after I got her she broke out of her pasture to be with her new found beau.  . She scraped her knee and inside of her hock, she presented very lame at first but was sound in a week. Then just last week she was limping when led out to pasture and was iced and put on Bute and stall rest again for a few days. I'm going to have the vet out again to check on her cannon in the front, which is where it was warm and she does have a small bump there.
She seems to be very prone to bumps and bruises on her lovely but delicate gambs. A few things after I purchased her have sprung up, on the back of her Jockey Club "title" it says "not for racing" which leads me to believe she's had problems since she was young, she's 6 now. Then a woman who used to board her horse at the same barn Rose was at said "poor Rosie, she was always dead lame in the pasture", I take that with a grain of salt however. So, I see the road ahead of which you have gone through. I didn't pay a lot of money for her, and I'm not planning on competition so I just want to keep her healthy and happy.
As far as protecting her legs during turnout or in her stall, does anyone have any recomendations? I have been using Polo wraps and when I ride I use the Professionals Choice boots.
She was at a barn where she was out with a lot of horses, she had bites on her and I don't think she got the attention she needed.
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 11:21 am:
Hi Adria,
Rosie is lucky to have found a good owner, just as Caymann did Isn't that just the way life with horses seems to go? It's never the thing that you think is going to get you. Does the vet think she has had a flare up of her DJD, or has she injured herself? It's funny, all of Caymann's orthopaedic problems have been non-injury related. He hasn't ever been in enough work for that to happen. But he has never once come in from turnout lame. So, if I can finally get him sound, hopefully that will be the end of it. And some horses are just more high maintenance than others.
I wish you all the best with Rosie. There are many different options available for turnout boots. Caymann wears bell boots when he goes out but that is it. You could check with your local tack shop for recommendations. Keep us posted re: her progress.
Mary
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 1:21 pm:
Hello Adria and Mary,
Both your horses are lucky to have found you! As a breeder I am glad to hear stories of people taking such good care of their horses[look for instance at Aileen and Braves story]It makes me less anxious sending my'little ones'out in the world.
On the subject of OCD though I would ask people not or else for only a very small amount of money to buy these horses just to force breeders to eliminate the'carriers' from this disease which means I assure you :operate and use for[light] riding and just eliminating from breeding!
I know this disease is not entirely heriditive[though in Europe there are vets who think it almost always is on one gene or other]and Dr O please correct me if I am wrong but people not wanting to accept this in a prospect horse will make the situation much better in time.
I just wanted to mention this although not entirely in line with the discussion for which I excuse myself but it is one of my pet topics.
Jos
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 2:36 pm:
Hi Jos,
I do have to wonder if there is a hereditary factor when the full brother to my horse has almost identical issues and he is not even five years old yet. Another horse from this same stallion also had possible OCD in three out of four fetlocks by age four. Not good. Why would one keep breeding from these same lines? I know of very few educated buyers that will pay what this breeder is asking for this horse. The only reason I did was because I did not know he had it at the the time of purchase. Having said that, I have never regretted having him, but this is not exactly what I had hoped for for him or for me.
Mary
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 4:01 pm:
Hi Mary, Studbook Zangersheide has together with a Swedish vet done a lot of research. I went to a seminar and after the lectures spoke with the very well known[in Europe among showjumpers owners/riders] vet Leo de Backer, he said normally with even just one OCD and after operation a horse could function on the highest levels but in his opinion 5 years[apr.] shorter then a horse without this problem, as showjumpers and dressagehorses take a long time to reach the highest level he preferred them not to be retired at 15 but at 20 years old and advocated using horses with OCD just as a working horse and this way eliminating the biggest part of OCD problems in a few generations. In his opinion the hereditary factor even went so far as to always the same joint [s] for the stallion or mare with the gene. For example stallion A gene left hock and mare B gene right front sesamoid bone 50% chance for each default in the poor foal. I know not every study agrees with these outcomes but nevertheless it was very interesting and we x ray everything possible in our broodmares and have eliminated all families with OCD.[from breeding]
Jos
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 4:11 pm:
Hi Jos,
That is very interesting. And I am glad to hear that there are some breeders out there who are trying to be responsible. What kind of horses do you breed? To me, putting a horse on the ground that requires three surgeries just to obtain soundness (not from work related problems, but developmental ones), does not make a whole lot of sense. And is certainly not fair to the horse. Surgical arthrodesis of a hock is not a pleasant experience. I am sure that even the best breeders occasionally have a horse that has problems. But it shouldn't keep happening and ignoring it and continuing to breed doesn't seem like a good idea to me either.
Mary
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 9:09 am:
Hi Mary,
I've Holsteiners though at the moment registered at the Zangersheide studbook.
Ofcourse it is stupid and cruel if you knowingly put such horses on this world.Pain for the horse and the future owner!
That's why I always tell people to buy a SOUND healthy as well as possible looked at by a vet horse. You will get into enough trouble with your new friend you cannot avoid horses are usually stars at 'DrOwning in a little pool' we say over here.
Apart from that it will force breeders to breed a horse without inherited illnesses as much as possible.[my pet subject and the reason I butted in in your discussion]
Jos
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 10:00 am:
Hi Jos,
My horse is a Holsteiner too! I just love the breed. Or maybe it is just him that I love. Anyway, I totally agree with you, horses can have enough issues without buying one that has developmental disease at a young age. Buying a healthy one is enough of a risk. I like your analogy about the pool, very funny.
Mary
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 10:01 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
If you can find it, would be interested to hear your thoughts on my original post re: OCD and juvenile bone spavin.
Thanks,
Mary
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New Member:
1roper
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 3:58 pm:
here are my thoughts on radiographs...
If I am buying the horse, unless there is a positive over a 1+ say lameness after flexion I won't have xrays. However that being said, let me share this story with you.
I advise my clients in the same way. I tell them that they should leave it to the discretion of the DVM whether or not xrays are needed. A year ago in March I sold my open barrel horse. He was priced at 20,000 and I told the potential buyer that I guaranteed him sound. He was. But they wanted xrays all the way around. They spent $500 on xrays alone. In October I got a call from the clinic that did the pre=purchase asking if they could release the photos to the current owner. I of course agreed. Now, the horse has Pedal Osteitis (and this is another story in and of itself- as I had been the horses, second owner and had him for five years and he was never lame). I can prove that he didn't have it prior to their purchase because it can't be seen in the xrays.
Will I advise clients differently because of this? I am not sure yet. But it is certainly food for thought.
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 4:09 pm:
Hi Jennifer,
The problem with only taking radiographs if the horse is lame is that it doesn't tell you what might be an issue in the future. When you are paying a lot of money for a young horse you are hopefully purchasing a long term partner, at least for Dressage. My horse flexed clean at his pre-purchase exam. However, he was only a four year old warmblood and had not been in much work. He did not physically mature until he was at least seven years old. Several months after I purchased him and put him into actual work, he started to have trouble. Which is often the case with OCD. Now in his case, the OCD was visible on the radiograph, but the vet missed it. Had I at least known that information I would have at the very least asked for a reduction in price as he had to have surgery in both hocks and stifles. And I could have made an educated decision as to whether I wanted to take the risk with a horse with developmental orthopaedic disease. I have never regretted having him, but no horse should have to endure what he has.
Mary
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 2:12 pm:
Mary as you already understood I agree with you. I think if you buy a horse of 20000 dollars the last 500 for the x rays wont kill you especially if you want to ride the horse for a long time[whats 500 dollar spread over 10 years] and if you intend to sell you need to because the next buyer can insist. In Holland loads of horses are insured and the insurance demands full x rays for horses apr. above 5000 euro and beneath if clinical results give a reason.
Apart from that I ve x rayed for instance the mares who stayed with us before work[3 years] after being trained one or two full seasons and sometimes one foal and if possible just out of curiosity at about 15 years old. It gave a very good impression of the hardiness of the family and though this is no guarantee for a sound longliving working horse it gave much information[though I must add : the horses who clinically were always impeccable no changes or heat in their legs after work etc. usually had good x rays to]
Jos
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New Member:
1roper
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 2:40 pm:
I'm not saying that when you spend 20,000 on a horse xrays aren't justifiable. But I also am of the mentality that if it doesn't bother the horse it shouldn't bother me. There are too many horses that would have horrible radiographs and the horse should be crippled, but don't tell the horse that. Then there are those that have minor changes and they are crippled as crippled can be. Now just because it doesn't bother the horse doesn't mean he's not going to see the chiropractor/acupuncturist as needed or that he's not going to get joint/ligament/HA supplements. But sometimes what we see on radiographs, can make people really over-react.
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Member:
caymie
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2007 - 3:51 pm:
Jennifer,
I agree with you that radiographs can cause people to over react and don't always tell you what is actually going on with the horse. I would probably feel more comfortable not radiographing a horse that was at least ten years of age and had been in solid work it's whole life and was sound. If it were a very expensive horse, I would probably still do it though. You never know if a horse has been given medication prior to a vetting or what the situation might be.
I still stand by my statement, that when purchasing a young horse, there is no way I would not radiograph it. There is no other way to determine if the horse does have DOD, and when making a long term commitment to a horse, and spending a lot of money on the horse, I would want to know that. And my insurance company would have wanted to know that as well. We got him insured because at the time of purchase, the vet missed the OCD on the radiograph. I can assure you, that if the vet had had to write down on the insurance exam form that my horse had OCD in five joints, they probably would not have insured him.
Mary
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28, 2007 - 9:13 am:
Hello Mary,
as to the general questions on the value of prepurchase exam radiographs, the article and reply to Cher's original question pretty much cover it.
As to specific information on your case you need to post it in a new discussion rather than at the bottom of someone else's. I will be glad to respond there.
DrO
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