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Discussion on Sweet feed and oats
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 2:17 pm:
My mare weighs about 850 lbs and she gets 3 flakes of hay in the AM and 3 in the PM. She also gets 12oz. of Equitech 10/10 and 6 oz. of oats with hoof supplement twice a day. She is 7 years old and keeps weight on with no problem. I have had her a year and during the summer all she got was 8 ozs of oats (AM and PM) in addition to grass and hay. I took her off sweet feed last spring because she could be a handful on the trail. She did calm down a lot. This winter with advice of others I put her back on sweet feed to keep her weight up. At first it was 4ozs sweet and 8 ozs oats, but I changed it to 12 ozs sweet and 6 ozs oats because she looked like she was losing weight. I had her on the trail the other day and she was very "up". I also had a bitless bridle on her and she had been doing fine with it. This day she seemed spookier than normal and because it was slippery out I only let her walk and gait. She wanted to run and I wouldn't let her. We were coming down a hill and she started to run. I lost my seat, decided to bail and she proceeded to run off. The next day I rode her in the ring and she was fine. I don't know if her running off was a feed issue or the fact the the horse we were riding with was high energy. He was walking, but "ready" to go. Anyway, I need help in figuring out what to do in order to avoid another run off. I will be riding her on the trail next time with a bit and the bitless in case I need to resort to a bit. However, even with a bit I think she would have done the same thing. I'm wondering if I should switch her feed and if so to what? She appears healthy in all areas and "loves" to eat.
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Member:
Aletao
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 3:29 pm:
What are you using to measure your feeds? When you say 8 oz., are you really measuring out a weight of 8 oz. (1/2 lb.) of oats? Or is this the measurement on a can? Make sure that you feed by weight, not volume.
There are a couple of good books out there to walk you through the ration formulation for your horse. Storey's publishing has one that I am currently reading & it gives examples of different horses, their nutritional requirements & how they should be met.
You can run a search on the internet for a download-able program from the NRC on Horse Nutrient Requirements. This will give you a start on figuring out what your mare needs.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 4:41 pm:
Hi Vicki, I have a couple of horses that get a little high on sweetfeed. But during the winter we do what we must to keep weight on when good hay is a little scarce.
I just adjust what I do with the horse when they are on grain. I work my trail horses in the round pen, lunging, or groundwork before we go out on the trail. I don't tire them just work them abit to get their mind on their feet and stay slow. Horses definitly love to run down hill, I make sure that my seat and body language clearly say that I want to go slow and I back them up on the hill and ask them to go on if they become squirely. One reign stops work wonders on the trail. Someone else might be better at explaining them than me.
I also switched to feeding grain every other day, and try to time my winter riding on the days they don't get grain.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 4:45 pm:
Oh I almost forgot how old is your mare she might need to have her teeth done and has she been wormed?
It sounds to me like you feed more than enough, but without weighing your food who knows. I would definitly check the teeth.
There is some good info on feeding horses and rations do a topic search.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 5:12 pm:
I'm curious about the bail! I've almost resorted to bailing after a very scary encounter with a herd of deer. So much flashes through your head when that happens--are we going to slip in the mud, will we make that turn, etc, it's hard to decide whether to take the chance and hang-on or to bail. I know that being prepared for anything and using the one rein stop is the be-all-end-all ideal, but sometimes you're just caught off guard and the situation I was in could have meant going off a cliff or into an electric fence (then off the cliff for sure).
Don't mean to change the subject but I'm wondering what the smart thing to do is? Is there a technique for bailing w/no injury or do you risk getting knocked out by a tree and hang on?
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:17 pm:
If you need to bail or are already coming off, make sure you are out of the stirrups and try to roll away from the horse as you come of the saddle, tuck your head to your chest and don't use your arms to stop yourself. IE emergency situation.
If you think you have a scary situation upcoming flex your horses head toward you and dismount quickly don't hury so fast you get stuck.
I know alot of people don't like them but helmets are very valuable in the field. I still had a bad concusion that took me 2 months to even remember what happened. Without it I probably wouldn't be riding at all.
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 7:20 pm:
Thanks for all the info. My mare is 7 years old.
I guess my question is "Is there a better feed to give her what she needs, without the sugar?" She is healthy, her teeth are good and she is on a good worming program.
As far as the bail. Since we were running down a snowy hill I wasn't sure I should try any of the emergency stop efforts. I chose to bail because she was running downhill, I was losing my balance, it was snow covered (icy in spots), there was a water crossing a few yards ahead with a concrete bottom, and more hills and slippery terrain ahead. I figured the snow was a safer place to land than the concrete. Only having a few split seconds to decide, I tried to pick my spot the best I could. I think my feet were already out of the stirrups becuase I knew I was gripping with my legs causing her to go faster. I knew I was doing everything wrong at that point! Yes, I had a helmet on and I was not hurt other than a few sore spots and a couple of minor scratches on my face. By the way, my husband found her a good 1/2 mile ahead and she had obviously had no problem with the terrain and she had plenty of energy to run up and down a couple of pretty steep hills. I'm very thankful that she didn't get hurt by any of the scenarios that were going through my mind!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 9:24 pm:
Wow Bailing to me is scarier than staying on the horse. Guess I had to many falls I refuse to let myself go when falling. I hang on for dear life which is why I land badly. I remember a few years ago at a gallop on a hunter pace my horse spooked and jumped side ways. I was laying with my right foot stuck on the back of the saddle the rest of me was off and I held on to his mane. I must have looked like a trick rider. Fortunatly this time my horse slowed and I pulled myself back up. I was completly hanging off his side. A bad habit. I always wanted to learn how to let go and fall nicely but its not in my nature. I hang on for dear life. By the way my horse has way to much energy on high carb /sugar feeds. He does great on high fibre high fat and it keeps his weight up all winter long.
Katrina
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 11:03 am:
My horse had trouble keeping weight on and the boarding stable I am at suggested a product called Omegatin. They told me it is higher in fat than grains and does not produce the high energy as sweet feeds do. My horse has put on weight during the winter, which he has not done in any winters in the past. He seems energetic, but not high. Here is a link to their webpage: https://www.omegatin.com/omegatinhome.html
I do lunge my horse prior to riding, as Cheryl advised. It isn't to wear him out, but to get him respectful and listening to me, and seems to make a big difference when I am riding. There have also been posts on this forum regarding teaching a horse to walk down hills. Do a search on "horse runs down hills", or something like that.
Happy trails,
Linda
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:01 pm:
I'm very glad to hear you wear a helmet.
I use a feed called safe choice I like it as it is lower in sugars/starches and it is very affordable. My mustangs don't get high on it, like the other feeds. I have also used empower in the past I really like it, it is a bit spendy but you have to remember it is a concentrated feed and do not need to feed more that a cup or two. Beet pulp is also a nice choice but in the winter time I don't have the patience to soak it, I don't have warm water hookup outside. Don't forget corn oil it is cheap and you just pour it on, plus their coats will look nice.
I know you said her teeth are good but did she have a complete dental exam, even though they may look good there can be sharp points in the back and not be flush where they need to be. I have a three year old who needs his done, but he has to wait till I can afford it.
When I notice someone getting thin in my bunch I go ahead and give another wormer even though they are on a good program, I also notice that for whatever reason on grass a couple of mine get skinny in the winter anyways. Alfalfa is good but I get to much gas colic on it.
Hope you find something that works for you.
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:37 pm:
Thank you for the suggestions for another kind of feed. She is not underweight by any means, in fact she was on a "diet and exercise" program over the summer where she DrOpped some weight and muscled up. I really just want to maintain her weight at this point and that's why I increased her sweet feed during the winter. I will try one of the other grains. I used to lunge her before going out on the trail because she was so high energy for the first hour. She was better after I took her off sweet feed, so I guess I need to get her off of it again. I'm new to owning my own horse so there has been some trial and error. I appreciate having a site to come to and get helpful information.
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Member:
Kcovell
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 6:48 am:
Vicki
I just wanted to make another suggestion for a feed. I changed my barrel horse from Omelene 100 and Stratey (which I mixed together by hand) to Ultium by Purina. This feed gives the horse the energy, but does not make them hot. I have seen a change in my horse and I don't have to feed her as much as I did with the Omelene/Stratey mix. Ultium is a pelleted feed and I know alot of people don't like pellets, but they are not dry and are not hard.
KC
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 4:18 pm:
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look into it. I don't think pellets would be a problem. She will eat anything. She is not picky!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 7:29 pm:
Hi Vicki,
I also agree that Ultium is a wonderful feed and sounds like it would fit the bill for you. Its 11.% fat and 11% protein if I remember correctly. My horse is not on it currently as he he doesnt get grain when not in competion. When we start competing I use this. My horse is a hot arab and we hunter pace and do long distance riding. This keeps his energy and weight up, his coat and mane are shiny and glossy and he is not a nut case as with high sugar high protein feeds, It is a complete feed with all needed vitamins and Extra vitamin E and lethin as they need a touch more when on a high fat diet.
Katrina
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 10:17 am:
Hi Katrina,
Thanks for the added information. I was wondering if I should gradually reduce her sweet and oats and add in the Ultium until it is all Ultium? I don't want to cause any upset to her system. She eats really fast, I usually add a big handful of grass forage and some carrots to keep her busy and make her think that she is getting more food than she really is. Otherwise she tries to go after the other horses food and she doesn't need it. If it weren't for the fact that she is conditioned to eating grain, I would consider taking her off of it.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 10:27 am:
Vicki, it is my understanding that it won't harm a horse to REMOVE a certain feed. It is when we introduce new feed all at once that can have harmful results.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 8:50 am:
Holly Wood is right, but still you have the right idea: you should slowly adjust her feed. You should note that if you are trying to restrict sugars in the diet you should stop the carrots or reduce the amount to one very small piece.
DrO
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 11:48 am:
I plan to adjust her feed starting today. Is it still OK to give her grass forage? I gave her carrots becuase they were low in calories, good fiber and kept her busy a bit longer. She only gets a lb in the AM and PM and could probably do with less, especially in the summer when she has plenty of grass. Is there something I can add to her feed just to keep her busy and make her think she is getting her "fair" portion. She really likes eating and gets very upset if she even thinks you might be taking too long to get it to her or if one of the other horses chases her off.
Thanks!
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2005 - 7:30 pm:
I went riding today and things went much better!
I lunged her in the ring, I rode her in the ring with the bitless bridle and then I took her riding on the trail, this time, with her bit. I have decided for the time being that the bitless bridle is not for her on the trail.
I wasn't able to find any of the feeds mentioned above at our feed store, but I did buy Triple Crown lite. It is a pelleted food (no sugar) and since she doesn't need to put on weight, just maintain where she is, I am trying that.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 8:08 am:
Yes you can give her grass but if she is not use to it start her slow. Compared to most of our human foods that might be true of carrots but it is not when compared to most horse foods. Pound for pound on a dry matter basis, carrots have as much energy as corn and about the same amount of fiber as oats.
DrO
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 9:42 am:
I'm intrigued by the high sugar content of the carrots, I never thought about that. I have a springy little arabian who eats carrots all the time and I just assumed they were the best choice for a non-hyper treat (this could explain a lot).
Do apples have the same effect? He doesn't like celery but are there any other fresh veggie or fruit options that wouldn't have the sugar effect? What about shredded wheat cereal w/no sugar for people who like to give treats?
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Member:
Shirl
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 1:41 pm:
CP, When my horse became I.R. with Cushings, I too had to stop the carrots and apples, both high in sugars. Sierra would eat celery, wasn't thrilled but ate it. Then, since she loved Burmuda/Alfalfa pellets, I'd give her a few of those as treats. She got used to them instead of the sugary treats. It is also safe to give the sunflower seeds in small quantities. Good Luck, Shirley
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Member:
Horse4u
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 13, 2005 - 9:58 pm:
When it comes to our horses we sure do go the extra mile to keep them happy! A happy horse makes for a happy rider! I just remembered that when I was teaching my horse ground manners I carried elbow macaroni and when she would pick up her feet, I would reward her with one. She loved those things, so I think I'll get some. They are inexpensive and don't spoil. As I said, I only give one at a time since a handful might not be a good idea since they are dry and hard. I would give all the horses one or two and they all seemed to like them.
As far as the grass forage, she was getting a big handful and now I am giving her 2 big handfuls.
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New Member:
Angie18
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Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 3:07 pm:
My husband is feeding his horse high performance feed along with a weight supplement & a vitamin joint supplement daily. The horse is scheduled to be in a movie so he's trying to get him to work & look as good as he can. Now he wants to give him Kalmaid on top of all of this. In my opinion he's asking him to perform above normal but then giving him something to calm him down at the same time. It doesn't seem right to me. Is this ok? What will be the effects of this. He is a good horse but when you ride him he tends to want to buck and my husband constantly has to be worried about letting his head down while he's riding him. This is after he's been worked for awhile and should be completely worn out. The horse should be a bucking bronco in a rodeo!
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New Member:
Cmatexas
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Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 4:26 pm:
Our horses are pastured, and only brought up to feed. When the grass is gone, we give them hay.
We have taken our horses completely off of all sweet feed for several reasons. First, we really noticed how hyper they were when they were being grained with sweet feed. When I asked my vet, he said all the newest research points to the fact that all the sugar is VERY bad for our horses. The sweet feed can also contribute to founder and colic. Instead, we switched to crimped oats, which he says are a great source of protein without the carbs, and are very safe and easy to digest. We also add oil as well as NuImage. I have an older horse that we add Weight Gainer to as well, but only 1/2 the recommended value b/c he gets oil. Our horses now maintain very well, with no up and down on their weight. Their coats are glossy, and their tails have grown down to the ground. On top of that, they are never twitchy, and the oats are much cheaper.
Our farrier/chiropractor, who knows more about horse health than our vet!!!, also says they look great. Their hooves have improved, and we have no more lameness problems. He also suggested we add apple cider vinegar. At first I was very skeptical, but after building up the amount for a month, our mare's runny nose and one gelding's runny eye are now gone.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 6:09 pm:
Hi,
I think the reason the horse is this hot is too much feed. If you look at my horse in my profile his feed is all you can eat hay with a tiny bit of hay pellets and oil or a fat suppliment. If I put him on the diet you mention my horse would be out of control with all that extra energy.Everyone comments on how extremly well he looks and it does not make him hot like too much grain. Just my thoughts
Katrina
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 6:26 am:
I just had a conversation with our Nutrena rep about various feeds. He said the controlled starch, higher fat feeds are calming. I noticed a big difference in my horses after switching from Omelene, a sweet feed, to SafeChoice, a controlled starch feed. The only problem with the SafeChoice, is it is pellets and one horse has some choke/gagging going on with it. I am going to try another product, XTN, which has no corn, higher fat, and controlled starch also. This looks like a "sweet feed" with some pellets, but sounds like a great compromise.
Any of the lower starch/controlled starch products out there should improve your horses high energy level and give him a nice "finished" look. And you don't need extra vitamins, just a waste of money and over kill.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 7:35 am:
Though the gist of the above posts is correct: horses do better on lower starch / higher fat diets than is traditional, there need to be a just a few details corrected. On a equal energy basis there is not that much difference in the protein (10%) / starch content between corn and oats. However whole oats does have other advantages that are discussed in our article on concentrates.
There is no likely relation between the health benefits Michelle notes and feeding apple cider vinegar which is mainly water and acetic acid. There is no scientific evidence that apple cider vinegar has any medicinal properties. Vinegar contains miniscule amounts of calcium, iron, magnesium, sodium, copper, manganese, and phosphorus with small amounts of potassium. The fiber, vitamin, and amino acid content is zero. On the other hand both snotty noses and runny eyes are usually transient problems that will fix themselves in time.
DrO
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Member:
Kwhaling
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2006 - 6:55 pm:
Hi Michelle,
I was giving my horses Omelene mixed with crimped oats. I decided to cut out the Omelene because of the sugars that are in it. What kind of oil do you use and how much do you put on the crimped oats you give your horse? Thanks!
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New Member:
Cmatexas
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 26, 2006 - 10:08 am:
My horses range from very large (16.2) to pretty small (14). I use vegetable oil and peanut oil in a 2-1 ratio (2 parts veg, 1 part peanut). The big boys get about 1 1/2 cups and the small mare gets a little under 1 cup. I also have a nursing mare that gets loose stool with peanut oil, so she only gets 1 cup veg. oil. Their manes and tails have grown, hooves look really good.
I agree with Dr. O that there is no reason the apple cider vinegar should do any good. I am a Biologist, and have tried to find a reason, with no luck!!!! I don't usually follow advice I can't find a reason for. That being said, we had a mare with chronic urinary/uterine problems. When she cycled, she had a GREEN discharge down her legs (not just normal mare pee), and green coming from her eyes. After NUMEROUS rounds of antibiotics, cultures, blood tests, etc., the vets couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. They were going to flush her and stitch her closed. I finally gave into this guy's advice. I worked her up to several cups a day. Since then, it has slowly gotten better. Now, my scientist mind tells me there is no correlation. But...., on the off chance that was what worked and it wasn't just a coincidence, she still gets some in every meal. It just stinks to high heaven!
Off the subject, Dr. O - Our new vet recommends putting copper tubing in her water. He says that in some mares, that will stop her cycling. She is very nasty for a couple days a month. I have asked around, and surprisingly, many of my friends who compete with mares do the same thing. They say they learned it from people who kept mares on the track. Can this hurt my mare? What about a younger mare - 2 yrs? (Is there somewhere else I should post this?)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 27, 2006 - 7:17 am:
Why not let the scientist in you take over in such a situation Michelle, remembering that such chronological thinking led to 100's of years of blood letting while a scientific approach has given us significant reduction and eradication of some of the most scurulous diseases. First a little history, for how long did the mare have the problem and for how long have you been giving the vinegar?
We do have a topic on estrus and behavior problems. It would help most by posting this question there. It is at Training Horses » Behavioral Problems » Suppressing Heat and Estral Behavior in Mares.
DrO
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